I play mostly 5e when I play Dnd nowadays, just because that is what most players are familiar with, so most of my ideas for improving warrior classes are specific for the latest edition. I include monks in the warrior category.

• warriors don't fumble or auto-miss on a 1 at 7th level.
• anyone can shove or grapple with any attack, which I believe opens up combat and makes it more interesting
• I think the distinction that WotC has made between unarmed strikes, natural weapons, and weapons is arbitrary and I don't see what it adds to game mechanics. Rather it seems unnecessarily limiting and the terms are completely interchangeable in my game.
• I'm toying with giving warrior classes a feat AND an ASI at ASI levels. The other changes don't add a whole lot individually, but I think this would add a lot more power to the warriors; I'm just not sure about game balance.

I'll second that estar was on point about magic items. All editions of dnd are high fantasy games and magic items help to close the gap between warriors and the capabilities of spellcasters.

My solution for making Warriors viable in a system akin to D&D is to just play Worlds Without Number. I can't see anyone thinking a pure Warrior class was underpowered there. The many Feat options also make it possible that a whole party could be pure Warriors and yet have different feels in practice. In WWN a Barbarian and a Cavalier are both just Warriors who chose different Feats as they levelled up.

Instead of giving masses of class options WWN provides a simple framework for building the class that you want. A fighter who's the charismatic negotiator of the group? A wizard who gets into tavern brawls and is a mean bare-knuckle fighter? A thief who's also a wilderness tracker? Easy as pie.

Worlds Without Number has a basic version of the rules that's available for free on DriveThru if people find the concepts mentioned worth looking into.

A good fix for warrior-types is to let them have wider access to mundane skills.

Hey, SHARK! You're a Marine, right? What'd they teach you? I know you got more skills than shooting weapons.

The same needs to apply to warriors in general and fighters especially.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 13, 2022, 10:59:21 AM
A good fix for warrior-types is to let them have wider access to mundane skills.

Hey, SHARK! You're a Marine, right? What'd they teach you? I know you got more skills than shooting weapons.

The same needs to apply to warriors in general and fighters especially.

TBH, I think that's a separate issue from the perception that warriors are weaker than casters. But it is a genuine issue that goes back to the idea that warriors are just stupid and skills are for high Int characters in D&D, which goes completely against the reality of soldiers throughout human history. You had warriors doing stuff like working on construction, helping build fortifications since ancient times. There's also tactical know-how, leadership and basic observation skills to spot enemy troops and ambushes, etc.

One thing that could be done to add interest to fighters is to have associated martial orders of warriors or warrior-monks accompanying appropriate religions.  I believe Harn has something like this.  Clerics are more like priests who also fight, but I envision these as more "warriors who happen to serve a religion."  I guess you could give them very minor priestly powers, like some minor spells, but nothing too powerful in that department.  Some might say that paladins already fill this role, but I view paladins more as outright agents of their deity, not just warriors who follow a particular religion.  These fighting orders could be for any alignment, of course, though they wouldn't be appropriate for every deity.

They could be actual warrior-monks devoted to one particular church -- such as the Knights Templar in our own history -- or they could simply be fighting followers of a particular religious sect (probably one oppressed by the society at large), like the Hussites or the Ikko-Ikki of feudal Japan.  The benefits of a fighter belonging to such an organization wouldn't necessarily be in the form of clerical magic; they might be more material benefits, like being able to borrow money, receive mounts, weapons or armor for an approved mission, find shelter for the night, even being able to use a sort of banking system, as the Templars did.

I don't remember this being an issue in my 1E/2E games, and I think the reason is that fighters lost one of their shticks in the later editions, which is having the best defense.  Not only did they have more hp and better AC than anyone else, they also could keep on doing their thing when they were under attack.  Spell interruption was a major issue with magic-users, and also to a slightly lesser extent with clerics.  If a fighter gets close enough to melee a M-U then he's probably going to win because he'll go through all of the M-U's hp in about 2 rounds and the M-U is unlikely to get a spell off.  In later editions the fighters didn't lose anything themselves, per se, but the other classes' defenses were improved to almost match theirs, removing one of their greatest advantages..

Indeed. Spellcasting become to reliable, and it's kinda very reliable in D&D from the get go.
Compare it to Warhammer, where presence of wizard is like threating bandits with dirty bomb.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 13, 2022, 10:59:21 AM
A good fix for warrior-types is to let them have wider access to mundane skills.

Hey, SHARK! You're a Marine, right? What'd they teach you? I know you got more skills than shooting weapons.

The same needs to apply to warriors in general and fighters especially.

Greetings!

Ghostmaker, my friend! Yes, I am a Marine veteran. Indeed, it has bothered me quite a bit that in D&D they stick Fighters with such very poor skills. In my own campaign, I have had to fix that, for damned sure. That is definitely a change to the Fighter class that I have long implemented.

In the Marine Corps, yes, they certainly do teach us all kinds of skills and knowledge. Weapons training; martial arts; other hand-to-hand combat skills; working with explosives; creation of booby-traps; basic First Aid skills; Physical Fitness and Nutrition; Survival; Surveillance and Infiltration; Organization and Discipline; Leadership and Motivation skills; Running, Swimming, Climbing, and Humping; Security and Guard systems and duties; Interrogation Resistance skills; Customs and Courtesies; Social skills and Etiquette; History; Government and Bureaucracy skills and knowledge; Field Fortification and Entrenchment skills; Camouflage and Concealment skills; Basic Financial Management; and more.

I also learned and was trained in Helicopter Operations; Amphibious Warfare; Mountain Warfare; Forest Warfare; Desert Warfare; Jungle Warfare; Urban Warfare; Counter-Terrorism Operations; Resisting Communism and Propaganda; Russian Military Organization and Tactics; Dragon Anti-Tank Weapon; LAW Rocket; Automatic Weapons; Grenade Launchers; Basic Sniper Operations; and more.

That's for Marine Infantry. I had friends that were Snipers; Embassy Guards; Supply Specialists; Cooks; Motor Transport; Tanks and Amtracs; Artillery; Military Police; and of course, also Navy Corpsman.

I also had a couple friends in the Infantry that got to do a very special job--they were Battalion Armourers. I don't remember "Armourer" being a particular MOS, but it was a job, and they got it. Yeah, they did all of the weapon take-downs, repairs, modifications, and maintenance of all weapons for a Marine Infantry Battalion. They had normal ranks like the rest of us--so I know they didn't get paid more--but damn, they did get all kinds of special perks and treatment, from fucking everyone, whether grunt, NCO, or Officers. They practically lived inside the armoury, which was also specially guarded with fortification, barbed wire, lights, security cameras, as well as 24-hour armed Marine Security.

It makes me laugh at how simple and stupid game designers at WOTC think Fighters are. In real life, Warriors are much more skilled and trained than they can fucking imagine. A funny thing is, historically, back in the Roman Empire, over two thousand years ago, Roman Legionnaires had very similar training and skills, as far as breadth of skills and mastery. Not the modern technology, obviously. However, the Romans even then, were very much up on the uber technology of warfare and weapons for their day. Roman Armourers also got special privileges in the Legions, too! *Laughing*

The breadth and diversity of skills is quite amazing. Different MOS's of course have different skill sets. I also had a friend that--while not as glamorous a being a grunt like me--*laughing*--he was a heavy duty vehicle mechanic. Yeah, he was like the armourers, except for any and every vehicle in the Battalion. Hummmers, small trucks, large trucks, he could do it all. Take them all apart and put them together again. The bastard was rolling in cash when he got out of the Marine Corps and got hired *INSTANTLY* making HUGE MONEY at a semi-truck repair shop. He actually had a guaranteed job six months before he got out of the Corps. And, he had the Marine Corps to thank for it all. He learned all about heavy truck mechanics in the Marine Corps, and often worked long, 12-hour days. Very talented guy.

It seems that the Roman Legions also looked for people with special backgrounds, and augmented such by also having special training programs for different kinds of specialists within the Roman Legion. Cooks, Payroll, Security, Medical, Armourers, Animal Handlers, Engineers, for example.

The scant skills and skill-acquisition opportunities for Fighters and Warriors in general in D&D is fucking weak, my friend. Definitely a weakness that needed and or needs a serious correction!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK 

Quote from: SHARK on April 13, 2022, 07:31:52 PMWeapons training; martial arts; other hand-to-hand combat skills; working with explosives; creation of booby-traps; basic First Aid skills; Physical Fitness and Nutrition; Survival; Surveillance and Infiltration; Organization and Discipline; Leadership and Motivation skills; Running, Swimming, Climbing, and Humping; Security and Guard systems and duties; Interrogation Resistance skills; Customs and Courtesies; Social skills and Etiquette; History; Government and Bureaucracy skills and knowledge; Field Fortification and Entrenchment skills; Camouflage and Concealment skills; Basic Financial Management; and more.

This is a reasonable skill set for a person who needs to fight in the modern world.

Now pit someone with this training against a handful of trolls, a fire-breathing dragon, or a lich throwing crazy-ass spells around.

Then do the same with someone from a vaguely-medieval setting who doesn't have access to modern medicine, nutrition, education, or technology.

Quote from: SHARK on April 13, 2022, 07:31:52 PM
In the Marine Corps, yes, they certainly do teach us all kinds of skills and knowledge. Weapons training; martial arts; other hand-to-hand combat skills; working with explosives; creation of booby-traps; basic First Aid skills; Physical Fitness and Nutrition; Survival; Surveillance and Infiltration; Organization and Discipline; Leadership and Motivation skills; Running, Swimming, Climbing, and Humping; Security and Guard systems and duties; Interrogation Resistance skills; Customs and Courtesies; Social skills and Etiquette; History; Government and Bureaucracy skills and knowledge; Field Fortification and Entrenchment skills; Camouflage and Concealment skills; Basic Financial Management; and more.

SNIP

This. It drives me crazy how little the average person understands fighting and physical skills. Soldiers, fighters, strength athletes, and laborers are stereotyped as idiots by the general populace, but gamers, most of whom seem to have eschewed any kind of physical acivity after being born, tend to be even more dogmatic in their belief that strength/warrior = stupidity.

SOF personnel have to be above average intelligence, in addition to being in peak physical condition. And it wasn't any different throughout history. Look at the napoleonic guards that we adopted the word grognard from, the crusading knightly orders, the spartans, the samurai, the mamluks, etc.

Quote from: GnomeWorks on April 13, 2022, 08:32:38 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 13, 2022, 07:31:52 PMWeapons training; martial arts; other hand-to-hand combat skills; working with explosives; creation of booby-traps; basic First Aid skills; Physical Fitness and Nutrition; Survival; Surveillance and Infiltration; Organization and Discipline; Leadership and Motivation skills; Running, Swimming, Climbing, and Humping; Security and Guard systems and duties; Interrogation Resistance skills; Customs and Courtesies; Social skills and Etiquette; History; Government and Bureaucracy skills and knowledge; Field Fortification and Entrenchment skills; Camouflage and Concealment skills; Basic Financial Management; and more.

This is a reasonable skill set for a person who needs to fight in the modern world.

Now pit someone with this training against a handful of trolls, a fire-breathing dragon, or a lich throwing crazy-ass spells around.

Throw in the modern military equipment that goes with such training and you have the basis for a very interesting game.

Folks need to keep in mind that OD&D was designed for people who knew how medieval combat worked. And the expectation that if it wasn't covered that the referee would read up on the medieval period on how stuff worked and make a ruling accordingly.

It is not a flaw that OD&D and its immediate successors omit this information. If you prefer to have the mechanical detail or consistently rule on certain things the same way every time. Then sure add the rules you like or use.  My additions are a result of how I choose to handle things like initiative and multiple attacks. My friends when they run OSE or a classic edition make their own choices on how to handle this stuff.

The only flaw in this situation is TSR forgetting about this and doing a half-ass job of explaining things in their books. Then compounded it in the later AD&D  books and the AD&D 2e books by trying to paper it over with ill-fitting mechanics.

I really like DCC'S warrior and the mighty deeds of arms mechanic. It gives them a damage bonus, and lots of utility. They also get access to superlative critical hits with their bonkers critical hit charts.