Quote from: SaskwachPerformed to the tune of "I Get Knocked Down".

Do you know what is really scary - judging by past precident (traveller ... Discussions... frex), I'm still gonna be going on about this in fifteen years!

Am I the only one compelled to tell Erik that in his beloved precious video games, the boss monsters are almost always, universally far better than the character you play? You know, more hitpoints, more devestating attacks, bigger, cooler, etc.

Sure, its a cheat for having pathetic AI's compared to player 'skills', but its been true of videogames for as long as I can remember.

Oh, and chaos dudes: I don't think they are cool and I don't want to play them. Nothing like getting metaphorically fucked up the ass for all eternity by some thing that calls itself a god.  Wanna talk about being someone's 'Bitch'? Next you'll be saying in the perfect Warhammer game WE"D be playing Khorne, and not his bloodthirsters.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfePut the keyboard down Erik. It's time for your bath.

It's March already?

Quote from: SpikeAm I the only one compelled to tell Erik that in his beloved precious video games, the boss monsters are almost always, universally far better than the character you play? You know, more hitpoints, more devestating attacks, bigger, cooler, etc.

Yeah, but the player gets lots of goes at it and only remembers the best one. If you just directly port the mechanics to the tabletop then, presumably, you are going to die as often as you do in the game.

(Er, I am reminded of someone commenting that the planes in second world war flight sims are too easy to fly, and someone else retorting that if once, just once in the game you have cocked up a take off or landing in a corsair they you would have been eliminated by the Ensign Eliminator).

So producing a story that Looks like a video game plot, on the first run through, while still providing fun fights and interesting twists is actually rather challenging.

(Ponder if you will an accurate simulation of gears of war but without saving - you create characters for an hour, and three second in to the first gunfight you hit A to dive out of the way, your guy instead decides to stick himself to a wall and some locust kills him with his rifle butt. Another hour of character generation later you are ready to play - and three seconds in a Theron Guard hits you with a torque bow and your guy blows up. Repeat until you can get through the whole game without dying once.

This is not ACTUALLY what I mean by when I talk about video game plots.)

I'd also note that in this thread we can see grognard complaining about the stupid stuff in DnD:-

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8114

Yes, in DnD. The only difference is that warhammer, for some fucked up reason, tried to listen.

Raise your hand if you think DnD would do better if it listened to these guys.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYeah, but the player gets lots of goes at it and only remembers the best one. If you just directly port the mechanics to the tabletop then, presumably, you are going to die as often as you do in the game.

(Er, I am reminded of someone commenting that the planes in second world war flight sims are too easy to fly, and someone else retorting that if once, just once in the game you have cocked up a take off or landing in a corsair they you would have been eliminated by the Ensign Eliminator).

So producing a story that Looks like a video game plot, on the first run through, while still providing fun fights and interesting twists is actually rather challenging.

(Ponder if you will an accurate simulation of gears of war but without saving - you create characters for an hour, and three second in to the first gunfight you hit A to dive out of the way, your guy instead decides to stick himself to a wall and some locust kills him with his rifle butt. Another hour of character generation later you are ready to play - and three seconds in a Theron Guard hits you with a torque bow and your guy blows up. Repeat until you can get through the whole game without dying once.

This is not ACTUALLY what I mean by when I talk about video game plots.)

Then make up your god damn mind and stop bitching already. Fuck a duck, man. Either you want it to play more like a video game or you want it to play more like a god damn table top game. Pick one and stick the fuck with it.

Christ, I WISH you were five. I'd get more coherent conversations out of you.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI'd also note that in this thread we can see grognard complaining about the stupid stuff in DnD:-

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8114

Yes, in DnD. The only difference is that warhammer, for some fucked up reason, tried to listen.

Raise your hand if you think DnD would do better if it listened to these guys.

I think D&D will be the same regardless of what's on the cover.

Quote from: SpikeThen make up your god damn mind and stop bitching already. Fuck a duck, man. Either you want it to play more like a video game or you want it to play more like a god damn table top game.

I wish to do the kind of things one does in video games, with the kinds of characters one finds in video games on the tabletop.

The way characters act in video games only makes sense in light of the fact that they can have another go. This is similar to the way that characters in books and movies get away with things because it is a story.

Without this safty net, people have to act differently.

Consider this:-

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/123379.html

(And please ignore the player - dude either never played a shooter before or he likes the axes reversed)

Now, if one was to run this with a simulation of the computer games mechanics on the tabletop, plugging in convenient values to model average player skill, a rather hefty fraction of the time Nathan Drake is gonna end up shot and his girlfriend raped to death by south american pirates.

Hence, players will not get to make snappy one liners or enjoy light hearted adventure in exotic locales.

Instead, it would probably get a reputation as a grim and gritty game, where people are constantly being butt reamed in colombian jails.

Quote from: James McMurrayI think D&D will be the same regardless of what's on the cover.

I was thinking more of listening when it is said they should have a moratorium on use of the word 'cool', and an implication they shouldn't be doing nerdy self-empowerment.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI'd also note that in this thread we can see grognard complaining about the stupid stuff in DnD:-

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8114

Yes, in DnD. The only difference is that warhammer, for some fucked up reason, tried to listen.

Raise your hand if you think DnD would do better if it listened to these guys.

I read the first few pages of that thread and I noticed the point where "nerdy self-empowerment" was raised. If you read it closely his beef was with the cover art only appealing to that kind of nerd and not appealing to a larger market, as 4e is apparently trying to do. So the point of that thread was "cover art does not equal stated aim of new edition. Also, it's lame and doesn't even at least give us a picture of some good action."
That thread therefore has nothing to do this thread except that you equate artwork with content.
I'm curious. Is this a massive troll or are you really this silly? Not that I don't enjoy it immensely either way.

Quote from: SaskwachIf you read it closely his beef was with the cover art only appealing to that kind of nerd.

Oh, I think hes crazy if he doesn't think that wish fulfilment ISN'T the wider market. Have you seen what passes for mass advertising these days? Happy, beautiful people in control. If it isn't a good strategy, theres a lot of money to be made out there...

Quote from: Erik BoielleOMG I WAN TO HAV TEH LAZAR GUNZ PEWPEWPEW DETH TO MAH ENEMEEZ I KEEL JOO WIF MAH AXE-GUN-SWORD-ROCKET!!!1! TABALTOP GAEMS SHULD BEE LIKE VIDEO GAMEZ!!1!!!11! RARGH!

In other words, to sum up the 30-something page 'argument' you're trying to make, in Warhammer the PCs shouldn't ever lose. They should immediately start out on a pile of d100x1d4 dead bodies, be "The Awesome", never, ever miss with their weapons, have a 100% chance (unmodifiable) to dodge anything, and have an extra 5d6x1,000 lb. muscle mass (added mostly to the neck and arms?

In other words - retarded?

Christ, it's like the short yellow bus of gaming.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJestaIn other words, to sum up the 30-something page 'argument' you're trying to make, in Warhammer the PCs shouldn't ever lose. They should immediately start out on a pile of d100x1d4 dead bodies, be "The Awesome", never, ever miss with their weapons, have a 100% chance (unmodifiable) to dodge anything, and have an extra 5d6x1,000 lb. muscle mass (added mostly to the neck and arms?

More or less. Its sole purpose should be to make 14 year old boys (or men who wish they were) love it. All other considerations, such as 'is it art?', 'does this teach the kids valuable life skills?' and 'is this actually even a game?' are largely secondary considerations.

Hell, the wargames are just an excuse to buy lots of little men, and maybe line them up and pretend at war.

And it'd be awesome. Pure focus on making the punter feel like a badass.

(Like I say, I believe Fun is maximised with a 3-1 win loss ratio, so there might be some room for failure, about, say, 1/4 of the time, but it is only there to maximise the fun, and not something to get hung up on.)

It's a performance, an art, an illusion. And it'd be so cool - page after page of big burly men with glistening muscles... :faints:

Quote from: Erik BoielleMore or less.

*falls off chair laughing*

We're not worthy

Quote from: Erik Boielle...page after page of big burly men with glistening muscles... :faints:

Now everything is made clear.