Quote from: Herr Arnulfe(one of my London TV producer colleagues observed that it's a fundamental British trait to embrace disaster with a sense of pride e.g. the Charge of the Light Brigade and Gallipoli).

I think this is just a result of having talking change - it is easy to be magnanimous in defeat when you Know you are better than everyone else.

Then after the second world war the nation hit a real crisis of faith and got really goddam dreary.

Now, fuck it man, we just like to win like everyone else.

Seriously man, it just isn't really a part of the culture any more. You like it, do it yourself.

I assure you, had we the ability we would be out there rubbing peoples noses in the superiority of all things British and crowing about it endlessly. That we can't is a source of constant irritation.

QuoteOne of Warhammer's great strengths has always been that failing is almost as much fun as succeeding, and sometimes moreso.

I disagree. That is just something you need to be able to endure if you are going to do this long term. Most people can't and hence GW would do best if everyone could win all the time. That this is tricky with wargames and easy with computer games is just part of their problem.

Look, I mean there is a reason that every new army wins its battle report in White Dwarf. They sell a dream. No little kid buys his space marines dreaming of how stupid they are. Well not many. I mean, theres always one right, but that isn't your market.

--

A maxed out human in WFRP has an agl of what, 70? 80? Even after YEARS of real time campaigning he is still falling off rooves 20% of the time, while in an unlimited dice pool system the chances of getting 0 successes is vanishingly small.

The black industries forum on stormtroopers:

QuoteSeriously, it's just a name for a guardsman of a rank that most people will never, ever reach. Don't sweat it.

So fucking stupid. So fucking stupid.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI disagree. That is just something you need to be able to endure if you are going to do this long term. Most people can't and hence GW would do best if everyone could win all the time.

The day GW gives in to this philosophy is the day they'll have lost sight of Warhammer. There's a reason why win/loss record is only one of several criteria in the official tournaments. GW games are meant to be story generators, not powergaming wish-fulfillment fantasies.

Quote from: Erik BoielleLook, I mean there is a reason that every new army wins its battle report in White Dwarf. They sell a dream. No little kid buys his space marines dreaming of how stupid they are. Well not many. I mean, theres always one right, but that isn't your market.

No, you go into every game hoping and expecting to succeed. Actively trying and wanting to fail just cheapens it, and it's not what I'm proposing. But when failure does happen, a good system will make it entertaining.

QuoteGW games are meant to be story generators, not powergaming wish-fulfillment fantasies.

Those arn't mutually exclusive - generators of stories of powergaming wish fulfillment.

I mean, doesn't that describe popular culture?

--

I've read that all things being equal, maximum fun is obtained with 3:1 win/loss ratio. More wins and it starts getting too easy. More losses and it starts getting too hard. Obviously, that ratio is impossible to achieve for everyone in an adversarial zero sum game, but it isn't impossible for an RPG.

But really I'm all about minimising consequences to encourage interesting play. With such high chances of failure you don't get lots of spectacular cockups - instead people just don't DO anything, because doing anything is stupid and will get you killed.

Seriously - those recordings of cthulhu games on yog-soth are a classic example - they can't rely on their skills so they never do anything challenging.

Is the useless tech priest going to try disarming a truck bomb with his skills?

But if he had unlimited fate points he might. He may have to go back to the inquisitor with his clothes singed and his hair burning slightly and a terribly expensive hive collapsing behind him, but that is way more interesting than running from the bomb beacause theres no way in hell you are risking a 70% chance of death.

Quote from: Erik BoielleThose arn't mutually exclusive - generators of stories of powergaming wish fulfillment.

Yeah, but those types of stories are dull and boring.

Quote from: Erik BoielleBut really I'm all about minimising consequences to encourage interesting play. With such high chances of failure you don't get lots of spectacular cockups - instead people just don't DO anything, because doing anything is stupid and will get you killed.

My experience differs. Fate Points encourage players to try risky things despite the chances of failure. Plus, character creation is fast and fun, so if your character dies it's not a big deal. You roll up a new guy, which lets you try one of the other careers that you never would've had a chance to play if you were single-mindedly focused on the character-building project of levelling up your Tech Priest.

The long term character-building approach may work in MMO's, but it's antithetical to face-to-face roleplaying because it encourages navel-gazing and selfish play (although Burning Wheel seems to have made a good attempt to fix this).

There's my rant. However, keep in mind that I'm a fan of the games, not the logo, and I could care less about the shareholders. If GW is forced to downsize in order to preserve the true spirit of Warhammer, that would be preferable to seeing them pander to the lowest common denominator.

QuoteFate Points encourage players to try risky things despite the chances of failure.

Nah, they are to rare. They'd need to refresh a lot faster to have much effect.

QuotePlus, character creation is fast and fun, so if your character dies it's not a big deal.

So you either get a parade of useless retards called Frank 7 because the player has no investment in them or (more common IME) a bunch of dull ass wallflowers who never do anything because it is the only way to survive.

Quotewhich lets you try one of the other careers that you never would've had a chance to play

Like anyone who isn't a useless retard or dull ass wallflower? Maybe like the characters from warhammer novels you like, or game characters, or whatever?

Quotetrue spirit of Warhammer

What, ultraviolent brit-fascism like in Judge Dredd?

Blanchian monkeys covered in skulls?

Quote from: Erik BoielleSo you either get a parade of useless retards called Frank 7 because the player has no investment in them or a bunch of dull ass wallflowers who never do anything because it is the only way to survive.

Experience has taught me that being invested in a game character will not make him any more interesting. Being invested in the game story is what really matters.

Quote from: Erik BoielleLike anyone who isn't a useless retard or dull ass wallflower? Maybe like the characters from warhammer novels you like, or game characters, or whatever?

I see we've once again reached a point in the thread where you mistakenly equate "gritty, high-risk" gameplay with useless zero-fantasy Pig Farmers, and completely mischaracterize the genre novels.

Put the keyboard down Erik. It's time for your bath.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeExperience has taught me that being invested in a game character will not make him any more interesting. Being invested in the game story is what really matters.

Thats probably because your guys either don't survive long enough or are to passive to be interesting.

Seriously man, I've read your adventures. You should try playing with characters who have more options than be dragged around by NPCs or die.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSeriously man, I've read your adventures. You should try playing with characters who have more options than be dragged around by NPCs or die.

Which adventures? I don't believe I've ever posted any online?

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeWhich adventures? I don't believe I've ever posted any online?

Wasn't empire at war one of yours? (and in the grand tradition of warhammer fandom, allow me to be the first to say I liked the original more :-) )

But seriously, have you played many games where PCs get to boss people about and whatnot - its a lot of fun.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWasn't empire at war one of yours?

No. There is zero chance you've seen any of my adventures unless you're a BI playtester.

Quote from: Erik BoielleBut seriously, have you played many games where PCs get to boss people about and whatnot - its a lot of fun.

Totally. In our Barony of the Damned game, Intimidate was easily the most frequently rolled skill. The players made the NPCs their bitches almost every session. Of course, it still ended in a TPK, but that's Warhammer.

QuoteNo.

Ah.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfebut that's Warhammer.

It really isn't, you know. Unless they were all muscle men who died fighting on top of a enormous pile of bodies while playing a face melting solo on a fender stratobolter, pulled down by all the demons of hell and angels of heaven working togeather.

Which I doubt.

Quote from: Erik BoielleIt really isn't, you know. Unless they were all muscle men who died fighting on top of a enormous pile of bodies while playing a face melting solo on a fender stratobolter, pulled down by all the demons of hell and angels of heaven working togeather.

Which I doubt.

Actually,


SPOILER...


...they were dogpiled and devoured by several hundred Ghouls after throwing burning oil on the Cannibal Knight during a supposedly honourable duel with the party's leader, Sir Robert. Sir Robert was badass, but the Cannibal Knight was even more badass. The Bretonnian chose to duel the Cannibal Knight because his player was (awesomely) roleplaying in-character, and decided that accepting the villain's horrific proposals would be even worse than death for Sir Robert.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeSir Robert was badass.

Yeah? What were his stats?

Quote from: Erik BoielleYeah? What were his stats?

I don't remember exactly, but he was a Questing Knight who carved through the local gang members no problem. If you own the KotG book, you can probably guess. Unfortunately for him, the Cannibal Knight had, like, 5 attacks with his 2-handed sword.