Quotemost of the minis you field are nobodies, and typically die en masse.

Those would be NPCs. Or do you like playing in RPGs where you get to follow around taking orders from the cool guys?

Plus, I mean, no one ever really dies in warhammer. Unless you drop em and stand on them or something. They always get right up for the next battle. Respawn almost.

If you got unlimited respawns things would be better. Grand Theft Horsecart, where if you 'die' you just end up WASTED at the nearest Barber Surgeon.

Other than that, yeah, fluff. Mostly. The novels and such merchandising play more off the fluff certainly. And the upcoming MMORPGs are likly to be very heavily WoW inspired in terms of mechanics, and they seem to be pretty well recieved, so I don't think anyone would really mind to much. And in Dawn of War your commander dies over and over again, and you just build him again with no real ill effects.

Quote from: Erik BoiellePlus, I mean, no one ever really dies in warhammer. Unless you drop em and stand on them or something. They always get right up for the next battle. Respawn almost.

What?  What are you talking about?!  People die like fucking crazy!  They don't just "respawn"...the ranks refill!  What, do you think that the Vampire Counts just bonk the Bretonnians on the head with a Nerf sword and say, "Pip pip, old chap!  I have bested thee!  Lay down on the ground!"?  I rather seriously doubt it.

You're clamoring for more violence, then claiming that nobody dies?!  Your arguments are creating a paradox that is sucking the oxygen from my brain!  This ain't Valhalla, son...this is Wahammer!

Quote from: Erik BoielleOther than that, yeah, fluff. Mostly. The novels and such merchandising play more off the fluff certainly. And the upcoming MMORPGs are likly to be very heavily WoW inspired in terms of mechanics, and they seem to be pretty well recieved, so I don't think anyone would really mind to much. And in Dawn of War your commander dies over and over again, and you just build him again with no real ill effects.

It's being well-received because it's an MMORPG, not a table-top RPG.  They are two completely different beasts.  And do you think you're going to start off fuck-awesome?  Hell no you're not!  You're going to have to grind your heart and soul out like every other MMO ever made!

Your argument is starting to confuse me.  It sounds like your issue is less that the RPG isn't true to the source material, but that the fluff isn't true to the source material.  In which case:  blame the authors of the novels you're reading, not the RPG.

If you want crazy-over-the-top-bad-assery-that-makes-no-goddamn-sense, try Exalted.  That's what that game does.  The world of Warhammer is dark, gritty, and an altogether shitty place to live.  The fact that most people die a horrible, violent death before they reach 30 is part of the setting's charm.  Not everyone's a hero.  That one in 100 (1,000?  10,000?)that makes it out of the muck, who has stared death in the face countless times and lived to see another day, who has faced horrors buried for ten centuries and retained his sanity...now that is a hero.

If you want to, you can play that hero: the rules are right there in the book to make him.  You can play as him.  It's all layed out for you.  Just spend the XP.  Just because the Vampire Hunter in the book isn't Wolverine with a neat hat and gadgets doesn't mean he's not a bad-ass in his own right!

Quote from: Arsenic CanaryYou're clamoring for more violence, then claiming that nobody dies?!  Your arguments are creating a paradox that is sucking the oxygen from my brain!

No - No! This is crucial! Its what lets warhammer be fun and cool rather than miserable.

Its the old 'no one ever thinks of the henchmans family!' thing. Saturday morning cartoon violence at its best.

Er, yknow, if you take the stuff in a cartoon and really think about what is going on it can be really grim:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V-zxWY3vsY

I don't think Games Workshop have built a world spanning empire on pondering deep issues of violence and brutality. No. They sell power fantasies of muscle men beating people up.

It's Commando, War Stories in Pictures. If people do die it's always a swift ARRRRGGGGGHHHHH and fade to black, not a pondering of the inevitable death that awaits us all, or the true horror of war. Its kids man. They think they are immortal...

QuoteIt's being well-received because it's an MMORPG, not a table-top RPG.

Yeah, and a roleplaying game is a table-top RPG, not a wargame, so I don't think people would mind to much if the rules differ. More than they do.

QuoteIf you want crazy-over-the-top-bad-assery-that-makes-no-goddamn-sense

Like in warhammer novels and comics and fluff descriptions of heros and whatnot, yes yes.

Quote from: Erik Boiellehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V-zxWY3vsY

.

That depressed the hell out of me, thanks!

Quote from: Arsenic CanaryYour argument is starting to confuse me.  

That's because you're taking him seriously.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI dunno. Now is a bad time to be a toy soldier manufacturer. But I don't think it helps that Warhammer, once home to the badest dudes you could find anywhere, is now actually rather tame compared to other forms of entertainment.

They have been outgunned by their competitors.

Or their competitors actually had a business plan other then soaking the fan base for every freaking cent they had.  Privateer Press had everyone figuring that they would die a quick but painful death when I dared to step into GW's ring of wargames...   somehow I don't think that GW is laughing about the market share they have lost because of a game that only takes one $30 box to play, and with rules that don't take eons to learn.

Seriously,

My brain poped out of my skull reading this thread.  Really. Mind blowing it was.  

Okay im going to have an asprin now.

Quote from: AosThat depressed the hell out of me, thanks!

Whatever GW sells it sure ain't grim! Not even close.

I just somehow get the feeling that WFRP somehow ended up as a deconstruction of Warhammer, a musing on what it would be like trying to live as a normal person and protect your family in a world as brutal as the Warhammer world.

Which is all well and good, but, er, dudes, that ain't what sells all the toy soldiers.

Hmm. I think this is central. These worlds don't suck for people like Conan or Judge Dredd or Slaine or the Doom Marine. They are in their element - they love this shit - it is what they were born to do.

They suck for people who would rather just be left alone to fish or maybe work on the allotment but instead have to run around in a loincloth being scared all the time before being brutally slain by the bulging muscles of the aforementioned.

QuoteOr their competitors actually had a business plan

I was meaning competitors like computergames and anime and comics and whatnot. Same way that WotC likes to thing they don't compete with other roleplaying companies so much as with all the other things people can spend their time and money on, like bowling or going to the cinema.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI was meaning competitors like computergames and anime and comics and whatnot. Same way that WotC likes to thing they don't compete with other roleplaying companies so much as with all the other things people can spend their time and money on, like bowling or going to the cinema.

I would wager that GW lost more market share percentage to Privateer and the other mini's game companies then WoTC has lost to other rpg companies, though I get your point.

All I have left to add is an enormous sense of relief that GW didn't insist on Erik's 'vision' as part of the WFRP license.

Quote from: DrewAll I have left to add is an enormous sense of relief that GW didn't insist on Erik's 'vision'

But why haven't they? I really just do not understand. It seems like a level of incompetence I just don't expect from evil monolithic empires.

Why arn't they raking it in by giving the market what it wants?

GAH!

Theres nothing in, frex, this trailer

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26441.html

that would be out of place in a 40K game! Why arn't they using it? The masses go apeshit for this stuff!

I DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!!!!11111!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: Erik BoielleI DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!!!!11111!!!!!!!!!

And you never will.  So please stop rambling on about it.

Quote from: kryystAnd you never will.  So please stop rambling on about it.

You don't know why either, huh?

Quote from: Erik BoielleGah! Why is GW messing around with a piss-ant niche game! The foolishness and waste of it all genuinely makes my chest feel tight and gives me the need to sit down.

This has to be satire.  I know he said it's not, but I can't believe it's serious.

The fact that WHFRP is not a munchkiny powergaming hackfest makes it a niche game?

They are wasting the IP? Last time I checked it was one of the better-selling RPGs out there.

And I think you'll find not everyone is as enamored with Drizzt as you think they are.

Quote from: TechnomancerThe fact that WHFRP is not a munchkiny powergaming hackfest makes it a niche game?

Yes. Is there something wrong with that statement?

QuoteAnd I think you'll find not everyone is as enamored with Drizzt as you think they are.

WHO BUYS ALL HIS SODDING BOOKS THEN!!!!!!111!!!!!1111!!!!