Quote from: jgantsAs I read this thread, all I can think of is "Have you tried Rifts?"

Certainly much of my argument can be summed up as 'why isn't WFRP more like rifts?'

Palladium does at times seem to have a direct line to the gamers soul. And Juicers, Crazies, Cyber-Knights and the rest would all seem to be able to take their place next to arco-flagellants and chrono-warriors and temple assassins and cyborks and whatnot, and would likly appeal more to the warhammer player than call of cthulhu characters.

Palladium isn't an accident of history or anything - they tend to have a genuine eye for Kewl. And fun!

Imagine, if you will, Kevin Siembidas Warhammer 40K...

Bitchin!

Quote from: Erik BoielleEr, then my thinking gets tricky - if you are correct that almost all tabletop gamers are video gamers (which I reckon is true) then it stands to reason they like the things video games tend to be about, which is largely violence and kewl characters. )

Nope.  Wrong relationship.  I play video games because I can't roleplay more in a week.  Video games are the less than ideal surrogate.  I want my video games to be more like my roleplaying games, not the otherway around.  Which is NOT all about violence and kewl characters...

Quote from: Erik BoielleCertainly much of my argument can be summed up as 'why isn't WFRP more like rifts?'

We're basically in the same territory as the BSG thread.

Quote from: Elliot WilenWe're basically in the same territory as the BSG thread.

Eh?

QuoteNope. Wrong relationship. I play video games because I can't roleplay more in a week. Video games are the less than ideal surrogate. I want my video games to be more like my roleplaying games, not the otherway around. Which is NOT all about violence and kewl characters...

Do you think your tastes are in any way mainstream though. Would you recommend marketing to you to someone who was interested in publishing stuff as a job instead of a hobby?

Quote from: Erik BoielleImagine, if you will, Kevin Siembidas Warhammer 40K...

Bitchin!

Disturbingly, I find myself this side of Erik's argument.

Even so, in order to alleviate the violent imagery that's dominating this thread I feel compelled to post an image which, I feel, must needs inspire good-natured mirth among all.

Quote from: Erik BoielleDo you think your tastes are in any way mainstream though. Would you recommend marketing to you to someone who was interested in publishing stuff as a job instead of a hobby?

Mainstream?  No idea.  I do know that my group of gamers fall into my category.  I would recommend marketing to me if you want to attract the roleplayer market as opposed to the powergamer market.  Though, the powergamer market is likely larger...

If it's all about marketing to the mainstream, then there's no reason to produce any RPG other than D&D.

Quote from: HaffrungIf it's all about marketing to the mainstream, then there's no reason to produce any RPG other than D&D.

Well, Games Workshop seem to have a thing about being beholden to people, so they would rather rip off rules than licence them, but yeah. Precisely.

Other organisations of less mercenary bent are free to do what they like.

Quote from: Erik BoielleEh?

Pundit's complaint (or part of it) about the new Battlestar Galactica is that regardless of whether it's a good show, it doesn't satisfy reasonable expectations of fans of the old show.

You saying that WFRP may be a good game in itself, but it doesn't deserve the name Warhammer FRP.

OK, i admit when it got to about page 5, i started skimming, but the entirety of this seems to be that:

RPG'S AREN'T LIKE VIDEO GAMES!!!! WHY NOT!?!?!?!

and all i can think of is "thank god."


SO, is it that the default setting/playstyle/whatever wanted isn't implicitly encouraged/spelled out that's the problem, or is to point out the fact that rpg's aren't more like video games?

Quote from: Elliot WilenPundit's complaint (or part of it) about the new Battlestar Galactica is that regardless of whether it's a good show, it doesn't satisfy reasonable expectations of fans of the old show.

You saying that WFRP may be a good game in itself, but it doesn't deserve the name Warhammer FRP.

Hmm. Well, I rather say something like it being really odd that they arn't exploiting what would seem to be rather obvious synergies and well tested marketing strategies, and we arn't talking about a few vocal fans of an old scifi show but the well developed customer base and associated reputation of the largest firm in hobby gaming, turning over twice as much, now, today, as WotC.

Its odd, yknow. Like Mills & Boon publishing challenging, difficult works that cause their readership to think about their place in the world. Only trying to do it in the same way, churning out twenty books a month by freelancers paid by the word.

It just doesn't play to their core competencies, you know?

Chaosium can do it because some very clever people with to much time on their hands do it as a hobby. BI can't. GW knows, however, how to do what GW do.

QuoteThe King isn't dead! Elvis Presley might not be a Colonel in the US Army anymore, but he's got a reputation as being one of the toughest independent Sanctioned Ops in the South. Yet, can he prevent the world being destroyed (further) while fighting off the KKK, swamp mutants and voodoo priests?

Pulp! They do Pulp! Unashamed Pulp!

(Note: I'm speaking very much as an outsider here, my experience with Warhammer anything was until recently limited to what I saw on display in stores and in ads. Now I own WFRP 1e and I've read a bit. So I'm not about to get into a debate on the facts, I'll immediately concede. But this is an interesting topic anyway and I don't see people asking the questions I'd like to see asked.)

Quote from: Erik BoielleHmm. Well, I rather say something like it being really odd that they arn't exploiting what would seem to be rather obvious synergies and well tested marketing strategies, and we arn't talking about a few vocal fans of an old scifi show but the well developed customer base and associated reputation of the largest firm in hobby gaming, turning over twice as much, now, today, as WotC.

I suspect Pundit has the right of it; the minis game and the RPG were closer to each other at the beginning, and then they diverged as diverse fandoms pulled them away from each other. Once that happened, if GW had wanted to "correct" things, it'd have had the problem of establishing a new identity for WFRP. You may be plugged in, but how many other OTT violence fans would just not bother to look at a product called WFRP 3.0 because they assumed it was like the earlier versions?

I think the real proof of the pudding will be the WH40K game--depending on how closely it aligns with the minis game, that would tell you if GW now sees things the Erik Boielle way, and its degree of success--especially if they do go the route of exulting in rather than deconstructing the themes of the minis game--will indicate the value of that approach.

Personally I think you're probably right, from a business standpoint Rifts-like gonzo exultation would be the way to go today, the only question would be how to tune it so that mayhem and ultra-violence are viable from the long-term play standpoint. In other words, minimizing the PC-mortality vs. challenge tradeoff--perhaps through crunch or interplayer competition à la Rune.

So....assuming GW (which isn't making the money it used to) looks at the new WH40k rpgs (which aren't all published yet so we don't actually know about all the different styles of play), takes back the licence from BI and knocks out two new gore-fest RPGs for fantasy and sci-fi catering to your perceived target market, early teen boys. What then?

Assuming your teens lap up the game (Which I'm not convinced by - I think gore tends to be more visual, hence slasher films and games, not so much books), what happens to all that time they spent buying, making and painting the models they currently love? It gets spent playing this wondrous new product. As does a far smaller proportion of mum and dad's money. Slaughtering mooks as a demi-god may be fun for a few sessions, but running a long-term high level campaign that challenges players is difficult at the best of times, without throwing in new teenage GMs. Any experienced GM who can do it well is more than capable of utilising the existing WFRP. If a few sessions of tabletop rpgs don't provide enough colour for your teenagers they may not even switch back to wargaming and you've lost valuable revenue.  

It might not be a great time to be a miniatures manufacturer, but I suspect it's even worse for rpg manufacturers. Apocalypse may breath some new life into GW's figures, as did LOTR, but I don't think it will last as long. Anything that might distract the target market from forking out for a Baneblade and some Blood Angel squads will not help GW maintain their position as the predominant wargames company.

Quote from: Joshua Ford(Which I'm not convinced by - I think gore tends to be more visual, hence slasher films and games, not so much books).

Aye, well, it isn't so much gore as, er, whatever the hell it is that GW does. Someone buys their books as by all accounts Black Library does okay for itself.

I mean, Black Library has three sort of imprints - Black Library which does Warhammer Pulp, Black Flame which does Other (principally 2000ad) pulp and their recent Solaris which kind of looks like they want to get in to something other than pulp.

And rifts is a good example, because although you can start out as a dragon or owner of a glitter boy and boom gun its actually very playable. And I'd argue that roleplaying games that act like video games are likly to be easier to play, as gamers today are likly to be so steeped in them that they are very familiar with the material.

After all, it is when players discover that they can't act like the Master Chief (or, dare I say it, the Marine from Doom) that a lot of the problems start...

My Warhammer might be a little rusty, but to my recollection, most of the minis you field are nobodies, and typically die en masse.

Not only that, but the more bad-ass units are very much susceptable to most attacks, and are really only differentiated by slightly increased stats.

In which case, WFRP is a pretty damn good representation of the game.

So, are you referring to the Warhammer fluff?  Because really, it's the fluff that's not a very good representation of the game.