Quote from: Erik BoielleWell obviously, if they are pissing around with stupid shit like WFRP.

That ain't what's losing them money, my friend.

QuoteI am familiar with WFRP2. It is so far below most of what I see on TV and video games that I wonder how anyone can say it can hold it's head up in the badass stakes.

Yet it's one of the bloodier, more visceral games out there. Far more so than D&D.

And if you're so familiar with 2E, then how the fuck do you respond to high powered characters in the game? Just look at the top end combat careers. WS of 70% +, 3 attacks per round, high strength, toughness and wounds, strike mighty etc. These are characters who can make short work of Trolls. And that's ignoring the insanely powerful rituals that wizards can access at higher levels.

There's plenty of badass potential in WFRP, it's just that you refuse to see it.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI am familiar with WFRP2. It is so far below most of what I see on TV and video games that I wonder how anyone can say it can hold it's head up in the badass stakes.

I just realized you're taking the piss. This whole thread is satirical, right?

Erik...here's the thing...WFRP isn't published by GW it's liscenced from them by Black Industries...GW has no interest at all in publishing roleplaying games because really, they aren't about ultra violence.

Really D&D 3.5 or 4.0 is what you're looking for.

Also, it's not true of WFB: chaos is about ultraviolence, bretonia is about nobility and courage, empire is about sacrifice in the face of unbeatable odds, high elves are about intricate planning and flawlwess execution, orks are about low comedy, dwarves are about discipline and caution, tomb kings are about self agradizement above the meager masses, and vampire counts are about whining about all the whiners, wood elves are about having sex with trees and getting splinters, darkelves are about having sex with darkelves and getting splinters...

Quote from: HaffrungI just realized you're taking the piss. This whole thread is satirical, right?

It really isn't.

It ain't the eighties any more. Its not just Hawk the Slayer out there any more.

Every day, Games Workshop goes up against Gears of War



or Army of Two



or Lair*



or 300 or Bleach or a thousand other things in our violence soaked society. And it is found wanting.

QuoteAlso, it's not true of WFB

Yes it is. In evidence I enter Darkblade, or the tales of a badass dark elf commiting ultraviolence across the world, of Helbrandt Grimm, about the story of an Imperial Mercenary commiting ultraviolence across the world ('I find killing half of a group of men makes the other half run away'), or every picture by GW ever.

*Okay, so Lair apparently wasn't very good, but people were still going apeshit for it because it Looked so good.

And everything GW is gonna do is always gonna come in second place to the IMAGES you post. Video games are always going to provide a more immedeate bang for the buck.

But here is the thing: WHFRPG has been out for 20 years with a single update and is still as fun as it was 20 years ago. Gears of War is, what, a year old? And I don't know anyone but you still crowing over it.  They hit harder and disappear faster.

Different type of hobby.  You prefer video games? Play fucking video games already and shut the fuck up about RPGs not providing a video game expirence.

Quote from: SpikeYou prefer video games?

Actually, I don't. I tend to spend a lot of time thinking 'Jeez! Another shootout! Can't we go back to base and chew the fat for a while? Maybe do a little RnR? Or focus more on that cutscene we just had?'

These are things better served by roleplaying games. But I like the Characters and stories in video games more.

Taking the attiude of piss off and play video games will get you nowhere but and ever shrinking pool of miserable old men whose defining feature is that they hate everything popular.

Which see Strike to Stun. Or No Mutants Allowed for that matter.

See, that's what I find Funny, Erik. Every Gamer I know personally ALSO plays Video games. And not a single fucking one of them complains that RPG's don't play enough like video games.

You are unique in that regards.  And also, in the sense that somehow being told to fakk of and go play video games somehow means I don't play video games myself. :raise:

Quote from: SpikeSee, that's what I find Funny, Erik. Every Gamer I know personally ALSO plays Video games. And not a single fucking one of them complains that RPG's don't play enough like video games.

Well, I mean, why would you complain? If you like videogames more its EASIER to just play video games than actively seek out roleplaying.

Er, then my thinking gets tricky - if you are correct that almost all tabletop gamers are video gamers (which I reckon is true) then it stands to reason they like the things video games tend to be about, which is largely violence and kewl characters. Assuming the manufacturers of videogames know what they are doing. Which seems likly, as they have more money than god (and I think they do, given how much I love this shit). And that potential tabletop gamers are likly to be hardcore gamers who like stories and involved shit rather than Wii Sports or something.

So, it makes sense that roleplaying games should be about the same sort of shit as video games, even if approaching it from a different direction that videogames and whatnot can't provide.

Given that all roleplayers tend to be videogamers, something intended not to appeal to videogamers won't appeal to roleplayers.

And given that warhammer/40K is pretty much tailor made for the dumb shit that videogames tend to be about, why are they not leveraging it more?



(is everyone familiar with Aerion the Faithful? A space marine RPG illustrated by him would be absolutely bitching

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/aerion_the_faithful/?start=0

As well as being a thing of unspeakable beauty!

I don't think I can express how cool I think this one is:-



er, you will note that he also does comics:-

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/aerion_the_faithful/Genesis/

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/aerion_the_faithful/FarewellSisterW40kComic/

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/aerion_the_faithful/RustedW40kComic/

)

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell, I mean, why would you complain? If you like videogames more its EASIER to just play video games than actively seek out roleplaying.

  I think the fact that videogames are a far more convienient means of living out ones powergaming masbuatory kill fest fantasies - is a big reason why RPGs in general have been on a decline. I don't believe that RPG's will die out. But it's stupid not to recognize that computer "RPG's" like WoW etc, are taking a good chunk of the young RPG consumer base.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSo, it makes sense that roleplaying games should be about the same sort of shit as video games, even if approaching it from a different direction that videogames and whatnot can't provide.

They are about the same old shit as videogames! All the popular computer rpgs are derived from P&P rpgs. WoW has races, classes, and levels... You get to delve in dungeons, go on quests, meet exotic creatures, and then you get to kill them and take thier stuff!

Gee, I wonder where that format originated from?

But you know what? It takes a lot of effort to get a group together and run a P&P rpg campaign. Computer RPG's are more popular just out of sheer convienience.

It's a lot easier to fire up your computer and get your fix from a single player game or MMORPG. Than it is to prep an adventure and get all your friends together in one place more than once a week.

And why are you so focused on Warhammer? When you can easily get what you want from other RPG's like Exalted or D&D at higher levels. (And as has already been pointed out, you can easily get it from the WHFRPG by just starting out with a few extra careers.)


.

Erik: I post from work. I can't see shit, so I have no idea what you are talking about mostly....

Quote from: JaegerAnd why are you so focused on Warhammer?

I like Warhammer. It's my default go to fantasy/sci fi setting. I know more about it than any other. I grew up with it.

Plus it has Space Marines, who are the coolest (and slayers and chaos warriors etc).

I dunno. They got me young, and I think it imprinted.

QuoteIt's a lot easier to fire up your computer and get your fix from a single player game or MMORPG. Than it is to prep an adventure and get all your friends together in one place more than once a week.

Yeah. I agree. And its gonna be even harder to get them together for something that is not only not a video game but is less instantly appealing than a video game. I mean, like we say, roleplayers tend to be videogamers, so they like videogame things, so the way to their hearts isn't to make something that doesn't appeal to videogamers.

I dunno. It just seems like they took the hard option, for no good reason.

-You guys know warhammer?
-Yeah?
-Its not like that
-Oh.

Gamer Name Recognition! It was there for the taking!

--

On high level WFRP - I dunno. It feels like the chances of eating an ulrics fury that takes you out would be high, but mostly, how many people do you genuinely think have played a campaign that has got to that level organically? I dunno. I just suspect that most people will stop playing before they get to the level below where most of the novels and shit start. You just can't powerlevel and grind XP as easily in tabletop games.

I mean, something like 10% of people will finish a video game they buy. And thats like a ten hour investment, or something.

I suspect that most people play by the rules, start small and not get all that far. And by that point you will have run out of adventures. And whatnot.

Er, and the guys on the DnD podcast (mike mearls and co) were talking about how people don't REALLY generally get to level characters right the way through very often so PRACTICALLY a lot of the designing of characters so they will be cool ten levels down the line isn't entirely worthwhile.

Start as you mean to go on! Fun Now not Fun Tomorrow (we always have fun tomorrow, but never fun today).

Er, even with DnD a lot of the books get sold to players who are looking for cool toys for their characters that they will never get to use. You won't get to use them in WFRP either, but why does that stop them from selling the books. Or even better, making the game so you can actually play with the cool toys instead of just dreaming about it.

(DnD dudes also talked about liking to run 20th level vs. Dragon fights at cons, as very few people actually get to play like that normally).


So,

1: I really, really, really don't understand why GW isn't cashing in by making books about characters people dream of playing but probably never will, like everyone else does

and

2: I know from bitter experience that if I don't start off with more or less the kind of character I want to play doing the kind of things I want to do the game is unlikly to last long enough that Fun will actually be had

Maybe that makes WFRP more honest than most - it mostly talks about stuff that people will actually do. But jezus is that uncool.

I may have missed something since I've only skimmed the thread. I see that Erik is being his usual entertaining self (and I mean it); not only that, I think he has a point. I'm kind of a reverse example of how GW got things wrong. I.e., I was turned off of WFRP because it was connected to the miniatures game, and I wasn't really interested in over the top bloodfests at the time. Had I realized it was more dirt-and-snot late middle ages, I might have given it a second look back in the 80's.

As for whether an RPG focused on mayhem more like the minis game would work, I assume Erik's talking about a game where your character mostly does the slaying not being slain, as implied by some of the responses.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSo, it makes sense that roleplaying games should be about the same sort of shit as video games, even if approaching it from a different direction that videogames and whatnot can't provide.

I bet most TRPG players like pizza. So why in fuck isn't WFRP more like pizza. Are these people MORONS?!

I'm sure I can't be the core demographic for Warhammer but I became interested in WFRP primarily because of its blood and snot, pull yourself up by the bootstraps or suffocate in the mud reputation.  I played D&D exclusively for 20+ years and when I started looking for something else to play, Warhammer fit what I wanted.  Interestingly enough its all the spiky bits and mohowked dwarves that I like least about it, to the point that I just imagine they aren't even there.  And I've literally never even touched a Warhammer miniature.  So the low-glam end of the game appeals to me but it seems like there's high-glam as well (at least high-glam enough for me to want to ignore), for those that want to go nuts.  Who knows, maybe if they did go ALL nuts with it that they would sell more.  I just know that it wouldn't have sold me.

I've started a new thread about videgames versus tabletop rpgs here, because it got me to thinking...

As I read this thread, all I can think of is "Have you tried Rifts?"