TheRPGSite

So, yet again I am playing Gears of War

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mmFMsuW4u8

and watching appleseed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRrOfBgWpjU

anticipating hellgate london

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/6194.html

and reading 2000AD collections and warhammer comics:-

http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/boomstudios/warhammer_damnation/01/preview/WH40K01_05.jpg

http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/boomstudios/warhammer_damnation/01/preview/WH40K01_06.jpg

http://images.comicbookresources.com/previews/boomstudios/warhammer_damnation/01/preview/WH40K01_07.jpg

and painting little men.

and these are all much of a muchness - violence exploitation reveling in bloodshed and fighting.

So how has warhammer in the RPG world ended up being so very far from this? Where is the joy in bursting someones head with an axe or firing the largest guns you can imagine? Instead it is all grim and fighting is made as little fun as possible.

I don't understand! This is a constant source of frustration for me. It seems like the society for vegetarian activism serving pork pies at their annual lunch!

Has there ever been such a radical misjudgement of an audience in roleplaying history? Who at GW went nuts and okayed this? WHY!! FOR GODS SAKE WHY!!!!!!









Man, of all the things in the world it is this connundrum that makes me so frustrated I feel a pain in my chest.

The RPG and the battle game approach the Old World from very different directions, but there's plenty of overlap. If you want to play a gore soaked brutality monger with an axe then just create a party of third career character and run with it. The system can easily accomodate the kind of play you're pining for.

BUT WHY THE FUCK DO GW PUBLISH IT! EVERYTHING ELSE THEY MAKE IS GORE SOAKED BRUTALITY (at least as much as they can, being For Kids, and whatnot)!!!1111!!!!!!

I don't like to invoke 'no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the XXX public', but still, GW didn't become the worlds biggest hobby gaming product without pandering to its market.

It is like a big summer blockbuster where they decide to not have any chases or fights and instead deliver a three hour lecture on town zoning policy 1985-1991.

I just don't understand who the hell thought it was a good idea.

WHY!!!! WHY? Does someone want to kill roleplaying? Is this actually some kind of tax scam where they need to keep sales down? Maybe they don't understand money?

Duh, I know, we have the biggest name in tabletop gaming. Lets make a niche product!

DUMB! DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






I suppose it could be some kind of assault on capitalism in general and GWs shareholders in particular. Possibly the shareholds stole someones girlfriend and then left the guy responsible for WFRP for dead. Only he didn't die - now he has come back years later with a cunning scheme to waste their money.

Bryan Ansell, Rick Priestly et. al, twenty years ago.

From the look of things they were bang on the money. I'd far rather have a game that accomodates ultraviolence as one aspect of play than one that was solely devoted to it.

Quote from: DrewI'd far rather have a game that accomodates ultraviolence as one aspect of play than one that was solely devoted to it.

But it doesn't DO ultraviolence! Not like that Conan demo I was playing last night.

And why the fuck does a WARHAMMER game have to do anything else! ITS STUPID! Its a waste of the goddam IP! It actually damages roleplaying by making one of the largest settings unattractive to people who actually like it!

I've no problem with niche games. BUT WHY A NICHE WARHAMMER GAME!!"!!

WHAT THE FUCK DOES ALL THIS HAVE TO DO WITH WARHAMMER! YOU KNOW, THE STUPID GAME WITH THE LITTLE MEN!

Quote from: DrewThe RPG and the battle game approach the Old World from very different directions, but there's plenty of overlap. If you want to play a gore soaked brutality monger with an axe then just create a party of third career character and run with it. The system can easily accomodate the kind of play you're pining for.

This dude speaks the truth of it. They're even nice enough to include stuff you should NEVER EVER play as PCs...then give you full rules for generating characters! (I love you, Tome of Corruption.)

The combat system's meaty enough to have legs, and characters at two careers in and onward are pretty damn competent at bringing the violence.

Quote from: LeSquideThis dude speaks the truth of it. They're even nice enough to include stuff you should NEVER EVER play as PCs...then give you full rules for generating characters! (I love you, Tome of Corruption.)

The combat system's meaty enough to have legs, and characters at two careers in and onward are pretty damn competent at bringing the violence.

But why is this shit, which given that everything else the make is about this shit, and their audience presumbly likes them becuse of this shit, given that it is what they make, hidden at the back like a dirty secret. Why isn't it printed on the cover:

ULTRAVIOLENCE YO! JUST LIKE THAT OTHER SHIT YOU LIKE! GETS YOUR ULTRAVIOLENCE HERE!





WHICH DUMB SCHMUCK WRITES THEIR ADD COPY? AND WHY WASTE ALL THAT TIME AND EFFORT ON POINTLESS CRAP!!!! WHY DOES THE WORLDS BIGGEST GAMING COMPANY WASTE ITS TIME AND EVERYONE ELSES MAKING GAMES FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE GAMES WORKSHOP!!!!!!11111

Post some pictures Erik. That'll make you feel better. ;)

Quote from: One Horse TownPost some pictures Erik. That'll make you feel better. ;)

Vision fading..... apoplexy encroaching... must rant.......


But still! ITS STUPID!!!!!!!!!

WHY IS GW NOT PANDERING TO THE LOWEST COMMON DEMONINATOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHY!

WHY?

WHY!!!!!!????!!!!!!!!!!!

DO THEY NOT LIKE SELLING BOOKS OR SOMETHING!?>

Jezus, I like being a starving artist to, but why waste warhammer on it?

They wisely realised that a good RPG requires far more than a bloody combat system to sustain interest. And they were right to do so. I've been a fan of WFRP since first publication, but there's no way I'd have carried the torch for so long if it had been the kind of game you describe. One dimensional gorefests may be cool for a few sessions, but I'd quickly lose interest if that's all there was to it.

Under the current system I can play exactly the kind of game you're so desperate for and much, much more. That's a win-win scenario in my book.

But you can do multidimensional gorefests! Arty gorefests like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, or Epic gorefests like Excalibur or SFX gorefest extravagansas like Transformers or stylised arty gorefests like 300 or brutal manly gorefests like warhammer or ANY ONE OF THE HUNDREDS OF OTHER WAYS THAT THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY PEDALS VIOLENCE TO THE MASSES!!!!!!!!

YOU KNOW!!!!! EVERY OTHER DAMN VIOLENCE INFESTED FORM OF ENTERTAINMENT OUR GORE SOAKED SOCIETY GOES IN FOR!!!! THE GUYS FROM CSI ARE HARDER BASTARDS THAN WARHAMMER PCS!!!!!!!!!!! (horatio kane regularly outshoots swatteams, and saying 'hi, I'm a CSI gets them more respect than working for the inquisition does in the 40KRP demo adventure)

But the key here is VIOLENCE!!!!!!! EXPLOTATION OF VIOLENCE!!!! VIOLENCE IS COOL! VIOLENCE IS FUN!!!!!! VIOLENCE SELLS!!!!!!!!!!!

WHY ARE THEY NOT SELLING VIOLENCE!!!!!!!! ITS PISSING MONEY AWAY!!!!! IT IS PISSING THE HOBBY AWAY!!!!!! FOR WHAT? BECAUSE SOMEONE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE BUSINESS THEY ARE IN? ? ?

Erik, without waxing lyrical and shouting and in as plain language as possible, what changes would you make so that it better conformed to your vision? As has been pointed out, there are tools there to run a game of the sort you want. What is lacking is the more gonzo elements of the rest of the world; Araby, Lustria etc. That'd be a cool addition.

Quote from: Erik BoielleBut you can do multidimensional gorefests! Arty gorefests like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, or Epic gorefests like Excalibur or SFX gorefest extravagansas like Transformers or or ANY ONE OF THE HUNDREDS OF OTHER WAYS THAT THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY PEDALS VIOLENCE TO THE MASSES!!!!!!!!

Story requires a solid setting and strong characterisation in order to elevate it above the video gamey examples you cited in your OP. WFRP is written explicitly to facilitate this. Your problem seems to be that starting characters aren't as powerful as you'd like them to be. There's an easy remedy for that, as has already been mentioned.  

QuoteYOU KNOW!!!!! EVERY OTHER DAMN VIOLENCE INFESTED FORM OF ENTERTAINMENT OUR GORE SOAKED SOCIETY GOES IN FOR!!!! THE GUYS FROM CSI ARE HARDER BASTRDS THAN WARHAMMER PCS!!!!!!!!!!!

Try saying that to a Champion. Or a Knight of the Inner Circle. Or a Master Wizard etc... These are the kind of characters who can mop the floor with most (if not all) of the commonly faced opposition.

Erik brings the WTF!!! to Warhammer fantasy discussion.

Dude: I play the game when I can, and the ultraviolence is always there. What are you on about?

Sure, my one career characters tend to have stupidly short lifespans... until they finally survive... but thats because of all the ultraviolence!!!!

And we still get to do fun stuff like own bars and convince a town that we are their own personal saviors, and investigate the source of all the ultraviolence!!!!

What the fuck are you playing?

Quote from: One Horse TownErik, without waxing lyrical and shouting and in as plain language as possible, what changes would you make so that it better conformed to your vision? As has been pointed out, there are tools there to run a game of the sort you want. What is lacking is the more gonzo elements of the rest of the world; Araby, Lustria etc. That'd be a cool addition.

I seem to recall that the further flung regions of the world will be covered in later source books, in a similar format to Brettonia and Kislev. Could be wrong on that one, though.

Quote from: DrewI seem to recall that the further flung regions of the world will be covered in later source books, in a similar format to Brettonia and Kislev. Could be wrong on that one, though.

It would be cool. :)

Quote from: One Horse TownIt would be cool. :)

Yeah, hopefully one day there will be an official Lustrian supplement. I've been hankering for one since 'The Magnificent Sven' scenario in WFB 2E over 20 years ago...

If being a WFRP fan teaches you anything, it's the virtue of patience. ;)

You could cover an awful lot of ground without going overboard on the details (so players can fill in some themselves) by releasing a seafaring supplement. Travelogues of the strange places visited, a couple of rumours, beasties, plots, a small encounter/adventure for each area, customs, equipment, the Gods. That would make a cracking 256 page book.

Quote from: One Horse TownYou could cover an awful lot of ground without going overboard on the details (so players can fill in some themselves) by releasing a seafaring supplement. Travelogues of the strange places visited, a couple of rumours, beasties, plots, a small encounter/adventure for each area, customs, equipment, the Gods. That would make a cracking 256 page book.

That's an incredibly cool idea, and would help patch over some of the huge swathes of uncharted territories until the dedicated supplements arrived. A sort of compendium of the '(Very) Rough Guide' books set in the WFRP world. You could spice it up with trade wars, piracy and all sorts of appropriately themed nautical grit.

I'd definitely buy it.

Quote from: One Horse TownErik, without waxing lyrical and shouting and in as plain language as possible, what changes would you make so that it better conformed to your vision?

Common dude.

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/video/easterEggs/WAR_Promo_081606.html

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/video/files/Marauder-exclusive.html

( He's like a great big viking whose gone bad. He's like the guy standing on the rock at the beggining of Conan. He's like the great big guys in the thirteenth warrior only with one minor exception - he's full of Chaos Energy. And what does that mean? Mutations! )

(have you played the Conan demo on xbox live? Conan (Ron Pearlman) says to the Pirate Queen (Claudia Black, Farscapes Aeran Sun) 'I am Conan - I serve no man' and the pirate queen says 'Then perhaps you would serve a woman?' and Conan says 'Service her? Aye, and gladly!' Then you go on to slay like fifty guys.)

And Thrud, who first appeared in the pages of white Dwarf

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/comics/independents/thrud1.shtml

I mean, christ dude, it should be more violent, more punk, MORE than World of Warcraft and DnD. A Warhammer hero beats up pansy ass Larry Elmore drawn fantasy knights, steals their lunch money, pisses on them then lights them on fire.

Essentially, at the point I see no hope but to slash and burn and start again.

Quote from: One Horse TownYou could cover an awful lot of ground without going overboard on the details (so players can fill in some themselves) by releasing a seafaring supplement. Travelogues of the strange places visited, a couple of rumours, beasties, plots, a small encounter/adventure for each area, customs, equipment, the Gods. That would make a cracking 256 page book.

BORRRINGGGG!!!!!!

Wheres the complete book of slayers, or of Chaos Warriors or Deamon weapons or all the other stuff that actually get talked about on warhammer forums?

(http://www.cheddarmongers.org/prod/gallery2/d/2088-3/thrudstandcollage.jpg)

Quote from: Erik BoielleBORRRINGGGG!!!!!!

Wheres the complete book of slayers, or off Chaos Warriors or Deamon weapons or all the other stuff that actually get talked about on warhammer forums?

In my pants.

More seriously, it sounds like what you really want to see is a video game RPG spliced with elements of the battle rules. Both of those areas are more than adequately covered by the... er... video games and battle rules. And for the final time, you can do all that shit with experienced characters anyway.

@ Erik: Mate, as usual with you, it's conceptual. I know you don't like the art, you want more spiky bits and i get that you want PCs to be army beating tanks. What's stopping that? The art? The fact that you can start as a piss-poor excuse for an army beater? Or the fact that adventures aren't just concerned with lopping bits off of people and then sleeping with their women?

As i asked before, what would you change? All you ever basically come up with is art. I guess that gets across what you are trying to articulate, but what would you change in the game to get there and do you really believe you can't do it with what has already been provided? The baseline is lower than you like, that's fine, but you can raise that baseline without house-ruling.

Quote from: DrewMore seriously, it sounds like what you really want to see is a video game RPG spliced with elements of the battle rules. Both of those areas are more than adequately covered by the... er... video games and battle rules. And for the final time, you can do all that shit with experienced characters anyway.

So in order to indulge the bits of warhammer I like, which is EVERYTHING THEY MAKE EXCEPT THE FUCKING STUPID ROLEPLAYING GAME I can either boot up the computer and instantly get to dethroning the god of war, or I can wait six months adding numbers on a piece of paper. And then make up my own adventures, because the published ones arn't for that kind of character.

No wonder roleplaying is dead. Jezzz.

STUPID!!!!!!

Quote from: Erik BoielleBORRRINGGGG!!!!!!

Wheres the complete book of slayers, or of Chaos Warriors or Deamon weapons or all the other stuff that actually get talked about on warhammer forums?

Or, you know, you could have little bits of details about all that stuff, in the relevant locations visited and tons more, so you don't just sell 50 copies.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSo in order to indulge the bits of warhammer I like, which is EVERYTHING THEY MAKE EXCEPT THE FUCKING STUPID ROLEPLAYING GAME I can either boot up the computer and instantly get to dethroning the god of war, or I can wait six months adding numbers on a piece of paper. And then make up my own adventures, because the published ones arn't for that kind of character.

No wonder roleplaying is dead. Jezzz.

STUPID!!!!!!

Or you could spend half an hour and a few thousand XP creating an advanced career character.

It's really that simple.

Erik, if it takes you six months to make a character, of any given expirence level, then you are either playing the wrong game, or RPGs just are not for you.

It just ain't that hard, man.

Actually, having read Erik's last post, i kind of agree that it would be pretty cool to have a mega-epic adventure or series of adventures published.

Quote from: One Horse TownOr, you know, you could have little bits of details about all that stuff, in the relevant locations visited and tons more, so you don't just sell 50 copies.

Because the Black Library books don't sell? Is that it? The entire rest of warhammer is such a disaster they need to distance themselves from it?

QuoteOr you could spend half an hour and a few thousand XP creating an advanced career character.

It's really that simple.

So the game works fine for doing everything else warhammer so long as you change the rules and make up your own adventures. And background.

Well shit.

Christ, its their money they are wasting.

Quote from: One Horse TownActually, having read Erik's last post, i kind of agree that it would be pretty cool to have a mega-epic adventure or series of adventures published.

The closest GW came to that was the Doomstones campaign, although that was a hastily rewritten D&D campaign IIRC. 'Empire in Flames' is more epic than the usual WFRP fare, although it had a number of stylistic and thematic problems when played as part of 'The Enemy Within'.

I agree too, though. The game does need an epic level adventure, if only to show the naysayers that WFRP is more than capable of handling high powered play.

Quote from: One Horse TownActually, having read Erik's last post, i kind of agree that it would be pretty cool to have a mega-epic adventure or series of adventures published.

If they just Tried it once. Made a game that shamelessly tries to pander to every fourteen year olds whim with assassins and deamons and chaos warriors and bare chested barbarians and space marines out the wazoo, and then it didn't sell, I could at least rest.

It just seems so obvious to me.

Why, given that you have warhammer to play with, would you not?

Look at the original WFRP; and look at the Warhammer minis game at the time WFRP1e came out; the two were very similar. The WFB had not yet gone the route of massive power-creep to the point of absurdity, and the WFRP first edition before the "enemy within" was a brutal violent, dungeon-crawl and combat heavy wilderness and city adventures companion to the WFB of that time.

What happens is they went in different directions.

WFRP did "enemy within", which suddenly meant that a bunch of Swine took over WFRP as fans and tried to demand that the game be deep and thoughtful and combat-discouraged; while the fanboys of the minis game kept wanting (and GW kept supplying) more and more powerful minis and armies till that game lost all sense of proportion.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditwhile the fanboys of the minis game kept wanting (and GW kept supplying) more and more powerful minis and armies till that game lost all sense of proportion.

The market gets what the market wants.

Except when it comes to warhammer roleplaying. Apparently.

Quote from: DrewThe closest GW came to that was the Doomstones campaign, although that was a hastily rewritten D&D campaign IIRC.

Yeah, got it, played it, loved it! *ducks*

I'm thinking even more epic than that really, but along the same lines.

As Erik hasn't answered twice now what he would change to get what he wants or how he can't achieve it with what has come out, i guess i should have seen this as his by-monthly troll on these matters that seems to get him banned from forums. Well, this or cyberpunk or *insert game here* The art is always good though. :)

Quote from: Erik BoielleSo the game works fine for doing everything else warhammer so long as you change the rules and make up your own adventures. And background.

If by "chane the rules" you mean "apply the experience and career advancement rules as written" then yes, however insane that may sound. As for "making up you own adventures," welcome to the wonderful world of RPG's, where creativity and vision is kind of a requirement.

And as for "background," WTF?  

QuoteChrist, its their money they are wasting.

BI's relentless publishing schedule would indicate that they're faring bloody well with the game at the moment.

Quote from: DrewBI's relentless publishing schedule would indicate that they're faring bloody well with the game at the moment.

Meh. I simply don't believe they wouldn't be selling more if they hewed a little closer to the formula.

Quote from: One Horse TownYeah, got it, played it, loved it! *ducks*

I'm thinking even more epic than that really, but along the same lines.

Something along the lines of 5000 xp+ character competence would be all kinds of cool. Set it in Kislev/The Chaos Wastes and you're set.

QuoteAs Erik hasn't answered twice now what he would change to get what he wants or how he can't achieve it with what has come out, i guess i should have seen this as his by-monthly troll on these matters that seems to get him banned from forums. Well, this or cyberpunk or *insert game here* The art is always good though. :)

I know, I know. I've seen my responses in this thread as more of a public service announcement than anything else. There's too many people who harp on about what WFRP can't do already, occasionally I feel obliged to counter the prejudice with a little common sense and actual experience. :)

Y'know, somewhere I have an adventure that comes with prepackaged three career characters.

Picking  your starting level is a feature, not a bug, Erik. The fact that I can play a 0 Xp bonepicker should in no way affect your ability to play a full bore judicial champion.

Or... are you pissed that people are playing it wrong if they DON"T start as judical champions or vampire hunters or daemon slayers?

Quote from: Erik BoielleMeh. I simply don't believe they wouldn't be selling more if they hewed a little closer to the formula.

There's absolutely no way of knowing unless they choose to do so. Oddly enough they have stuck with the formula. Barring a few systemic and setting revsions the core of WFRP has remained pretty much intact from first publication.

Quote from: One Horse TownAs Erik hasn't answered twice now what he would change to get what he wants or how he can't achieve it with what has come out,

Well, this is pretty formulaic. Basically, follow the summer blockbuster formula to the letter.

One thing is the game needs Cool characters:-

Have you seen Assassins Creed?

http://www.gametrailers.com/game/2581.html

You do not play a fucking ratcatcher. You play a shamelessly cool Assassin. He is called Altair, which means Soaring Eagle or somesuch. He is specifically designed to look like a bird of prey when pirching on things or swooping on targets.

You will also note that he can free run. He probably also snowboards and drift races.

Too human?

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26080.html

Baldur. A god. Kicks ass.

Get over the whole munchkin thing. It is aspirational. You are selling people a dream here guys - no one dreams of being a prat.

Essentially, if you need to understand that people really, really like Drizzt Do-urden or whatever his name is. They want to play him. It is your JOB to sell him stuff that lets him.

Quote from: SpikeOr... are you pissed that people are playing it wrong if they DON"T start as judical champions or vampire hunters or daemon slayers?

More that GW make endless minis and books and computergames and whatnot about vampire hunters and deamon slayers, and yet for some reason the roleplaying game doesn't cover this area.

Instead you get inquisition flunkies who are dissed by guard sergents and expected to take it. Pansies.

I just don't think this is optimal. In fact, I think it is stupid. If there is a market for a non-warhammer low fantasy game, then make one. Then make the warhammer Barbarians and Slayers kick ass game and spend the proceeds on hookers and blow.

Quote from: Erik BoielleEssentially, if you don't understand that people really, really like Drizzt Do-urden or whatever his name is. They want to play him. It is your JOB to sell him stuff that lets him.

Only if you believe that the entirety of gaming is one big munchkin infested monoculture.

Some people want to play Drizzt. Others want to play Hamlet. Some even want to play Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. WFRP allows you to play the lot

It's like saying that D&D is too limiting because you don't automatically start at 15th level. A specious argument at best.

Quote from: DrewOnly if you believe that the entirety of gaming is one big munchkin infested monoculture.

As games workshop and palladium and White Wolf and WotC* neatly demonstrate, no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the public.

(while the FUCKING STUPID roleplaying game has turned up its toes and died on what, three separate occassions now? Christ, do people never learn?)

IDEALLY you want to pander while still looking clever and arty and whatnot so people can feel smart while indulging themselves, but really. It is munchkin infested. Learn to love it, or doom yourself to forever being a niche.

*That is Space Marine, Glitter Boy, Vampire and Hero Explosively Growing In Power )who as of fourth ed gets bonus hit points at first level, because everyone agrees first level sux) for those of you playing the home game.

Quote from: Erik BoielleMore that GW make endless minis and books and computergames and whatnot about vampire hunters and deamon slayers, and yet for some reason the roleplaying game doesn't cover this area.

Instead you get inquisition flunkies who are dissed by guard sergents and expected to take it. Pansies.

I just don't think this is optimal. In fact, I think it is stupid. If there is a market for a non-warhammer low fantasy game, then make one. Then make the warhammer Barbarians and Slayers kick ass game and spend the proceeds on hookers and blow.

WTF are you smoking. Open your fucking book and stop being a prat. Right there! There! In the fucking book!!! Vampire Hunters, Deamon Slayers, Judicial Champions!!!

Christ, are you blind? Do I have to make a special trip back to the god damn house and feed you page numbers???? Shit, man, the second ever WHFRP game I ever played in we had a fucking halfling who was doing everything in his power to become a JC on his second fucking career!  Its not the Game that forces you to be a fucking PRAT its your own willful. obdurate. behavior.

Or in that case the GM insisting that the halfling buy all the gear in this little hamlet we were based out of where no one, apparently, ever made weapons or armor. Weeks to purchase on god damn weapon at a time. GM being a prat, sure. Game? Nope, not a bit.  Of course, we still took down a necromancer and his skeleton army, a vampire in a tower and did some god damn Indiana Jones style archeology despite that!

Quote from: Erik BoielleAs games workshop and palladium and White Wolf and WotC* neatly demonstrate, no one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the public.

And yet many, many games with low power levels have thrived over the last thirty plus years. Odd, that.

Quote(while the FUCKING STUPID roleplaying game has turned up its toes and died on what, three separate occassions now? Christ, do people never learn?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_Fantasy_Roleplay

Scroll down to the history section. You'll find that poor support, overly restrictive licensing deals and bizarro GW corporate policy is largely to blame. WFRP has turned a profit in every incarnation, the latest one in particular.

Quote from: SpikeVampire Hunters,

Bit of a low key vampire hunter by modern standards (which see Van Hellsing or Underworld or Blade).

Also a complete pansy compared to vampires.

Quote from: DrewAnd yet many, many games with low power levels have thrived over the last thirty plus years. Odd, that

Such as....

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell, this is pretty formulaic. Basically, follow the summer blockbuster formula to the letter.

One thing is the game needs Cool characters:-

Have you seen Assassins Creed?

http://www.gametrailers.com/game/2581.html

You do not play a fucking ratcatcher. You play a shamelessly cool Assassin. He is called Altair, which means Soaring Eagle or somesuch. He is specifically designed to look like a bird of prey when pirching on things or swooping on targets.

You will also note that he can free run. He probably also snowboards and drift races.

Too human?

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26080.html

Baldur. A god. Kicks ass.

Get over the whole munchkin thing. It is aspirational. You are selling people a dream here guys - no one dreams of being a prat.

Essentially, if you need to understand that people really, really like Drizzt Do-urden or whatever his name is. They want to play him. It is your JOB to sell him stuff that lets him.

Thanks for confirming your MO.

Nothing you have said there supports whatever kind of crazy arsed argument you are making. Want cool characters? Make one.

The only credence you have here is that so far there hasn't been adventure support for the high end of play. The rest is there if you bother to read it.

Quote from: One Horse TownNothing you have said there supports whatever kind of crazy arsed argument you are making. Want cool characters? Make one.

Last time I played it I got a one armed barrel chested ugly hunter. With a shit WS.

I was unenthused.

Quote from: Erik BoielleThe market gets what the market wants.

Except when it comes to warhammer roleplaying. Apparently.

You make it sound as though WFRP is a commercial failure. The game has been around for 20 years, and it's the second-best selling fantasy RPG out there.

It doesn't meet your teen power-gaming needs. Boo-fuckin-hoo. Lots of other people seem to like its gritty, gallows humour tone. There's definitely a market for the game. As to whether there's a bigger market for your utlra-violence hack game, I'll trust the folks who own the license to be the judge of that. They seem pretty good at identifying markets and making money.

Fuck me. Things must be slow today.

Ok Erik. You win. Shout rubbish until people give up. :haw:

Quote from: Erik BoielleLast time I played it I got a one armed barrel chested ugly hunter. With a shit WS.

I was unenthused.

So this is about your power-gaming needs not being met? Then play a different game. There are lots out there. Or does every game have to a teen-fantasy blood fest?

Quote from: HaffrungOr does every game have to a teen-fantasy blood fest?

Certainly not.

But really, WHY THE FUCK ISN'T WARHAMMER!!!!!!!!!

Its warhammer. Teen-fantasy blood fests is what Games Workshop sells.
 
I just don't think this is rocket science.

(http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6084/93166420061006screen001bt4.jpg)

Quote from: Erik BoielleSuch as....

Call of Cthulhu, RuneQuest, Traveller, Hunter: the Reckoning, Basic Fucking D&D... the list goes on.

Of course WFRP is one of the most overtly gritty fantasy games out there, and I believe owes no small amount of its success to being exactly so.

Quote from: DrewCall of Cthulhu, RuneQuest, Traveller, Hunter: the Reckoning, Basic Fucking D&D...

Not exactly first tier games those. More niche games kept alive by a handful of hardcore fans. Except hunter. Which is just dead.

And DnD. But then, wasn't that the game with stats for god so you could kill them, and which is about to enter its fourth edition, now more like World of Warcraft than ever before, and with bonus hitpoints at first level because everyone agrees first level sux.

And WFRP, which has died several times, been resuscitated several times by hardcore fans and only soldiers on with the Warhammer name to prop it up and a lot of confused customers wondering why it has so little to do with the little men they like.

Quote from: Erik BoielleNot exactly first tier games those. More niche games kept alive by a handful of hardcore fans. Except hunter. Which is just dead.

For the longest time Traveller and RQ were top tier games. And if you're counting games that "died," (which for you seems to include folding for whatever reason, regardless of sales) then you might as well throw AD&D 2E on the pile. Yeah, that game with unlimited power growth fell by the wayside too. See how ridiculous your argument is when you ignore the specifics of circumstance?

QuoteAnd WFRP, which has died several times, resuscitated several times by hardcore fans and only soldiers on with the Warhammer name to prop it up and a lot of confused customers wondering why it has so little to do with the little men they like.

Where exactly are all these confused customers? Are you talking about the twelve-year-old battle gamers who can't countenance anything even remotely different from their favourite price-gouging-hobby-as-lifestyle designed to bleed their parents dry? Or somebody else? I haven't encountered anyone who was confused by the premise of WFRP after a few minutes of reading the ad copy or idly flipping through one of the books.

Except for you, of course.

Quotetwelve-year-old battle gamers who can't countenance anything even remotely different from their favourite price-gouging-hobby-as-lifestyle designed to bleed their parents dry?

Yes, that would be GWs target market, and the audience that has made them the worlds biggest hobby game company. Yknow, the people they sell their stuff to. People who like what they do. People primed to shell out cash for books filled with musclemen!

I mean, they buy the novels and whatnot.

Gah! Why is GW messing around with a piss-ant niche game! The foolishness and waste of it all genuinely makes my chest feel tight and gives me the need to sit down.

Its why I rant. I think I might pass out otherwise.

Probably because GW knows that in order to sell to 12 year olds you don't try to make them sit and read a lot of stuff, understand a lot of rules and then try to organize groups of other players. In otherwords: RPG's.  What fooken ordinary 12 year old is gonna spend 30-40 bucks for a damn book unless they are already brought into gaming by an older, and in your example, probably out of demographic for this sort of thing, gamer.


THAT is stupid marketing.

Of course, I think I can rewrite WHFRP to be more to your taste. You get one stat: badassatude. Its automatically at 5. On a d6 on a 1-5 you hit your opponent for stupid damage, killing lesser mortals and daemons with ease. On a 6, however, you decapitate yourself or somethign equally badass happens TOO you instead.

Player vs player tends to result in mutual bloodbaths. But very bloody and cool bloodbaths.

GO FORTH AND GAME AWESOME STYLE... and shut the fuck up.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYes, that would be GWs target market, and the audience that has made them the worlds biggest hobby game company. Yknow, the people they sell their stuff to. People who like what they do. People primed to shell out cash for books filled with musclemen!

And yet their profits are rapidly shrinking, their corporate policy is an utter shambles (no errata will ever be published, for fucks sake) and they're losing market share left right and centre, all the while doggedly following the same ideology you espouse.

But we've been here before, haven't we Erik? Maybe you should go back and reread the GW thread from a few months back. Virtually all this ground has already been covered. Granted, you spent most of the thread calling people "fatbeard" for disagreeing with you, but that's by the by. It's all there, and I have no desire to revisit it.

QuoteGah! Why is GW messing around with a piss-ant niche game! The foolishness and waste of it all genuinely makes my chest feel tight and gives me the need to sit down.

Its why I rant. I think I might pass out otherwise.

Quick question. Do you actually own a copy of WFRP 2E? Have you bothered to read it? So many of your complaints are in fact handled quite well by the system that I really do wonder.

Quotetheir corporate policy is an utter shambles

Well obviously, if they are pissing around with stupid shit like WFRP.

:-)

I dunno. Now is a bad time to be a toy soldier manufacturer. But I don't think it helps that Warhammer, once home to the badest dudes you could find anywhere, is now actually rather tame compared to other forms of entertainment.

They have been outgunned by their competitors.

I am familiar with WFRP2. It is so far below most of what I see on TV and video games that I wonder how anyone can say it can hold it's head up in the badass stakes.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell obviously, if they are pissing around with stupid shit like WFRP.

That ain't what's losing them money, my friend.

QuoteI am familiar with WFRP2. It is so far below most of what I see on TV and video games that I wonder how anyone can say it can hold it's head up in the badass stakes.

Yet it's one of the bloodier, more visceral games out there. Far more so than D&D.

And if you're so familiar with 2E, then how the fuck do you respond to high powered characters in the game? Just look at the top end combat careers. WS of 70% +, 3 attacks per round, high strength, toughness and wounds, strike mighty etc. These are characters who can make short work of Trolls. And that's ignoring the insanely powerful rituals that wizards can access at higher levels.

There's plenty of badass potential in WFRP, it's just that you refuse to see it.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI am familiar with WFRP2. It is so far below most of what I see on TV and video games that I wonder how anyone can say it can hold it's head up in the badass stakes.

I just realized you're taking the piss. This whole thread is satirical, right?

Erik...here's the thing...WFRP isn't published by GW it's liscenced from them by Black Industries...GW has no interest at all in publishing roleplaying games because really, they aren't about ultra violence.

Really D&D 3.5 or 4.0 is what you're looking for.

Also, it's not true of WFB: chaos is about ultraviolence, bretonia is about nobility and courage, empire is about sacrifice in the face of unbeatable odds, high elves are about intricate planning and flawlwess execution, orks are about low comedy, dwarves are about discipline and caution, tomb kings are about self agradizement above the meager masses, and vampire counts are about whining about all the whiners, wood elves are about having sex with trees and getting splinters, darkelves are about having sex with darkelves and getting splinters...

Quote from: HaffrungI just realized you're taking the piss. This whole thread is satirical, right?

It really isn't.

It ain't the eighties any more. Its not just Hawk the Slayer out there any more.

Every day, Games Workshop goes up against Gears of War

(http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/718/718873/gears-of-war-20060714024932572-000.jpg)

or Army of Two

(http://cache.kotaku.com/assets/resources/2007/03/AO2.jpg)

or Lair*

(http://www.langsuyar.com/news/images/lairGDCtn.jpg)

or 300 or Bleach or a thousand other things in our violence soaked society. And it is found wanting.

QuoteAlso, it's not true of WFB

Yes it is. In evidence I enter Darkblade, or the tales of a badass dark elf commiting ultraviolence across the world, of Helbrandt Grimm, about the story of an Imperial Mercenary commiting ultraviolence across the world ('I find killing half of a group of men makes the other half run away'), or every picture by GW ever.

*Okay, so Lair apparently wasn't very good, but people were still going apeshit for it because it Looked so good.

And everything GW is gonna do is always gonna come in second place to the IMAGES you post. Video games are always going to provide a more immedeate bang for the buck.

But here is the thing: WHFRPG has been out for 20 years with a single update and is still as fun as it was 20 years ago. Gears of War is, what, a year old? And I don't know anyone but you still crowing over it.  They hit harder and disappear faster.

Different type of hobby.  You prefer video games? Play fucking video games already and shut the fuck up about RPGs not providing a video game expirence.

Quote from: SpikeYou prefer video games?

Actually, I don't. I tend to spend a lot of time thinking 'Jeez! Another shootout! Can't we go back to base and chew the fat for a while? Maybe do a little RnR? Or focus more on that cutscene we just had?'

These are things better served by roleplaying games. But I like the Characters and stories in video games more.

Taking the attiude of piss off and play video games will get you nowhere but and ever shrinking pool of miserable old men whose defining feature is that they hate everything popular.

Which see Strike to Stun. Or No Mutants Allowed for that matter.

See, that's what I find Funny, Erik. Every Gamer I know personally ALSO plays Video games. And not a single fucking one of them complains that RPG's don't play enough like video games.

You are unique in that regards.  And also, in the sense that somehow being told to fakk of and go play video games somehow means I don't play video games myself. :raise:

Quote from: SpikeSee, that's what I find Funny, Erik. Every Gamer I know personally ALSO plays Video games. And not a single fucking one of them complains that RPG's don't play enough like video games.

Well, I mean, why would you complain? If you like videogames more its EASIER to just play video games than actively seek out roleplaying.

Er, then my thinking gets tricky - if you are correct that almost all tabletop gamers are video gamers (which I reckon is true) then it stands to reason they like the things video games tend to be about, which is largely violence and kewl characters. Assuming the manufacturers of videogames know what they are doing. Which seems likly, as they have more money than god (and I think they do, given how much I love this shit). And that potential tabletop gamers are likly to be hardcore gamers who like stories and involved shit rather than Wii Sports or something.

So, it makes sense that roleplaying games should be about the same sort of shit as video games, even if approaching it from a different direction that videogames and whatnot can't provide.

Given that all roleplayers tend to be videogamers, something intended not to appeal to videogamers won't appeal to roleplayers.

And given that warhammer/40K is pretty much tailor made for the dumb shit that videogames tend to be about, why are they not leveraging it more?

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/aerion_the_faithful/SubjugatorsChaplain-Final.jpg)

(is everyone familiar with Aerion the Faithful? A space marine RPG illustrated by him would be absolutely bitching

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/aerion_the_faithful/?start=0

As well as being a thing of unspeakable beauty!

I don't think I can express how cool I think this one is:-

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/aerion_the_faithful/SpaceSharksChaplain.jpg)

er, you will note that he also does comics:-

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/aerion_the_faithful/Genesis/

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/aerion_the_faithful/FarewellSisterW40kComic/

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d61/aerion_the_faithful/RustedW40kComic/

)

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell, I mean, why would you complain? If you like videogames more its EASIER to just play video games than actively seek out roleplaying.

  I think the fact that videogames are a far more convienient means of living out ones powergaming masbuatory kill fest fantasies - is a big reason why RPGs in general have been on a decline. I don't believe that RPG's will die out. But it's stupid not to recognize that computer "RPG's" like WoW etc, are taking a good chunk of the young RPG consumer base.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSo, it makes sense that roleplaying games should be about the same sort of shit as video games, even if approaching it from a different direction that videogames and whatnot can't provide.

They are about the same old shit as videogames! All the popular computer rpgs are derived from P&P rpgs. WoW has races, classes, and levels... You get to delve in dungeons, go on quests, meet exotic creatures, and then you get to kill them and take thier stuff!

Gee, I wonder where that format originated from????

But you know what? It takes a lot of effort to get a group together and run a P&P rpg campaign. Computer RPG's are more popular just out of sheer convienience.

It's a lot easier to fire up your computer and get your fix from a single player game or MMORPG. Than it is to prep an adventure and get all your friends together in one place more than once a week.

And why are you so focused on Warhammer? When you can easily get what you want from other RPG's like Exalted or D&D at higher levels. (And as has already been pointed out, you can easily get it from the WHFRPG by just starting out with a few extra careers.)


.

Erik: I post from work. I can't see shit, so I have no idea what you are talking about mostly....:D

Quote from: JaegerAnd why are you so focused on Warhammer?

I like Warhammer. It's my default go to fantasy/sci fi setting. I know more about it than any other. I grew up with it.

Plus it has Space Marines, who are the coolest (and slayers and chaos warriors etc).

I dunno. They got me young, and I think it imprinted.

QuoteIt's a lot easier to fire up your computer and get your fix from a single player game or MMORPG. Than it is to prep an adventure and get all your friends together in one place more than once a week.

Yeah. I agree. And its gonna be even harder to get them together for something that is not only not a video game but is less instantly appealing than a video game. I mean, like we say, roleplayers tend to be videogamers, so they like videogame things, so the way to their hearts isn't to make something that doesn't appeal to videogamers.

I dunno. It just seems like they took the hard option, for no good reason.

-You guys know warhammer?
-Yeah?
-Its not like that
-Oh.

Gamer Name Recognition! It was there for the taking!

--

On high level WFRP - I dunno. It feels like the chances of eating an ulrics fury that takes you out would be high, but mostly, how many people do you genuinely think have played a campaign that has got to that level organically? I dunno. I just suspect that most people will stop playing before they get to the level below where most of the novels and shit start. You just can't powerlevel and grind XP as easily in tabletop games.

I mean, something like 10% of people will finish a video game they buy. And thats like a ten hour investment, or something.

I suspect that most people play by the rules, start small and not get all that far. And by that point you will have run out of adventures. And whatnot.

Er, and the guys on the DnD podcast (mike mearls and co) were talking about how people don't REALLY generally get to level characters right the way through very often so PRACTICALLY a lot of the designing of characters so they will be cool ten levels down the line isn't entirely worthwhile.

Start as you mean to go on! Fun Now not Fun Tomorrow (we always have fun tomorrow, but never fun today).

Er, even with DnD a lot of the books get sold to players who are looking for cool toys for their characters that they will never get to use. You won't get to use them in WFRP either, but why does that stop them from selling the books. Or even better, making the game so you can actually play with the cool toys instead of just dreaming about it.

(DnD dudes also talked about liking to run 20th level vs. Dragon fights at cons, as very few people actually get to play like that normally).


So,

1: I really, really, really don't understand why GW isn't cashing in by making books about characters people dream of playing but probably never will, like everyone else does

and

2: I know from bitter experience that if I don't start off with more or less the kind of character I want to play doing the kind of things I want to do the game is unlikly to last long enough that Fun will actually be had

Maybe that makes WFRP more honest than most - it mostly talks about stuff that people will actually do. But jezus is that uncool.

I may have missed something since I've only skimmed the thread. I see that Erik is being his usual entertaining self (and I mean it); not only that, I think he has a point. I'm kind of a reverse example of how GW got things wrong. I.e., I was turned off of WFRP because it was connected to the miniatures game, and I wasn't really interested in over the top bloodfests at the time. Had I realized it was more dirt-and-snot late middle ages, I might have given it a second look back in the 80's.

As for whether an RPG focused on mayhem more like the minis game would work, I assume Erik's talking about a game where your character mostly does the slaying not being slain, as implied by some of the responses.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSo, it makes sense that roleplaying games should be about the same sort of shit as video games, even if approaching it from a different direction that videogames and whatnot can't provide.

I bet most TRPG players like pizza. So why in fuck isn't WFRP more like pizza. Are these people MORONS?!

I'm sure I can't be the core demographic for Warhammer but I became interested in WFRP primarily because of its blood and snot, pull yourself up by the bootstraps or suffocate in the mud reputation.  I played D&D exclusively for 20+ years and when I started looking for something else to play, Warhammer fit what I wanted.  Interestingly enough its all the spiky bits and mohowked dwarves that I like least about it, to the point that I just imagine they aren't even there.  And I've literally never even touched a Warhammer miniature.  So the low-glam end of the game appeals to me but it seems like there's high-glam as well (at least high-glam enough for me to want to ignore), for those that want to go nuts.  Who knows, maybe if they did go ALL nuts with it that they would sell more.  I just know that it wouldn't have sold me.

I've started a new thread about videgames versus tabletop rpgs (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=148162#post148162) here, because it got me to thinking...

As I read this thread, all I can think of is "Have you tried Rifts?"

Quote from: jgantsAs I read this thread, all I can think of is "Have you tried Rifts?"

Certainly much of my argument can be summed up as 'why isn't WFRP more like rifts?'

Palladium does at times seem to have a direct line to the gamers soul. And Juicers, Crazies, Cyber-Knights and the rest would all seem to be able to take their place next to arco-flagellants and chrono-warriors and temple assassins and cyborks and whatnot, and would likly appeal more to the warhammer player than call of cthulhu characters.

Palladium isn't an accident of history or anything - they tend to have a genuine eye for Kewl. And fun!

Imagine, if you will, Kevin Siembidas Warhammer 40K...

Bitchin!

Quote from: Erik BoielleEr, then my thinking gets tricky - if you are correct that almost all tabletop gamers are video gamers (which I reckon is true) then it stands to reason they like the things video games tend to be about, which is largely violence and kewl characters. )

Nope.  Wrong relationship.  I play video games because I can't roleplay more in a week.  Video games are the less than ideal surrogate.  I want my video games to be more like my roleplaying games, not the otherway around.  Which is NOT all about violence and kewl characters...

Quote from: Erik BoielleCertainly much of my argument can be summed up as 'why isn't WFRP more like rifts?'

We're basically in the same territory as the BSG thread.

Quote from: Elliot WilenWe're basically in the same territory as the BSG thread.

Eh?

QuoteNope. Wrong relationship. I play video games because I can't roleplay more in a week. Video games are the less than ideal surrogate. I want my video games to be more like my roleplaying games, not the otherway around. Which is NOT all about violence and kewl characters...

Do you think your tastes are in any way mainstream though. Would you recommend marketing to you to someone who was interested in publishing stuff as a job instead of a hobby?

Quote from: Erik BoielleImagine, if you will, Kevin Siembidas Warhammer 40K...

Bitchin!

Disturbingly, I find myself this side of Erik's argument.

Even so, in order to alleviate the violent imagery that's dominating this thread I feel compelled to post an image which, I feel, must needs inspire good-natured mirth among all.

(https://www.thunderboltmountain.com/images/fairies/7003.gif)

Quote from: Erik BoielleDo you think your tastes are in any way mainstream though. Would you recommend marketing to you to someone who was interested in publishing stuff as a job instead of a hobby?

Mainstream?  No idea.  I do know that my group of gamers fall into my category.  I would recommend marketing to me if you want to attract the roleplayer market as opposed to the powergamer market.  Though, the powergamer market is likely larger...

If it's all about marketing to the mainstream, then there's no reason to produce any RPG other than D&D.

Quote from: HaffrungIf it's all about marketing to the mainstream, then there's no reason to produce any RPG other than D&D.

Well, Games Workshop seem to have a thing about being beholden to people, so they would rather rip off rules than licence them, but yeah. Precisely.

Other organisations of less mercenary bent are free to do what they like.

Quote from: Erik BoielleEh?

Pundit's complaint (or part of it) about the new Battlestar Galactica is that regardless of whether it's a good show, it doesn't satisfy reasonable expectations of fans of the old show.

You saying that WFRP may be a good game in itself, but it doesn't deserve the name Warhammer FRP.

OK, i admit when it got to about page 5, i started skimming, but the entirety of this seems to be that:

RPG'S AREN'T LIKE VIDEO GAMES!!!! WHY NOT!?!?!?!

and all i can think of is "thank god."


SO, is it that the default setting/playstyle/whatever wanted isn't implicitly encouraged/spelled out that's the problem, or is to point out the fact that rpg's aren't more like video games?

Quote from: Elliot WilenPundit's complaint (or part of it) about the new Battlestar Galactica is that regardless of whether it's a good show, it doesn't satisfy reasonable expectations of fans of the old show.

You saying that WFRP may be a good game in itself, but it doesn't deserve the name Warhammer FRP.

Hmm. Well, I rather say something like it being really odd that they arn't exploiting what would seem to be rather obvious synergies and well tested marketing strategies, and we arn't talking about a few vocal fans of an old scifi show but the well developed customer base and associated reputation of the largest firm in hobby gaming, turning over twice as much, now, today, as WotC.

Its odd, yknow. Like Mills & Boon publishing challenging, difficult works that cause their readership to think about their place in the world. Only trying to do it in the same way, churning out twenty books a month by freelancers paid by the word.

It just doesn't play to their core competencies, you know?

Chaosium can do it because some very clever people with to much time on their hands do it as a hobby. BI can't. GW knows, however, how to do what GW do.

QuoteThe King isn't dead! Elvis Presley might not be a Colonel in the US Army anymore, but he's got a reputation as being one of the toughest independent Sanctioned Ops in the South. Yet, can he prevent the world being destroyed (further) while fighting off the KKK, swamp mutants and voodoo priests?

Pulp! They do Pulp! Unashamed Pulp!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OAVY4XAEL._SS500_.jpg)

(Note: I'm speaking very much as an outsider here, my experience with Warhammer anything was until recently limited to what I saw on display in stores and in ads. Now I own WFRP 1e and I've read a bit. So I'm not about to get into a debate on the facts, I'll immediately concede. But this is an interesting topic anyway and I don't see people asking the questions I'd like to see asked.)

Quote from: Erik BoielleHmm. Well, I rather say something like it being really odd that they arn't exploiting what would seem to be rather obvious synergies and well tested marketing strategies, and we arn't talking about a few vocal fans of an old scifi show but the well developed customer base and associated reputation of the largest firm in hobby gaming, turning over twice as much, now, today, as WotC.

I suspect Pundit has the right of it; the minis game and the RPG were closer to each other at the beginning, and then they diverged as diverse fandoms pulled them away from each other. Once that happened, if GW had wanted to "correct" things, it'd have had the problem of establishing a new identity for WFRP. You may be plugged in, but how many other OTT violence fans would just not bother to look at a product called WFRP 3.0 because they assumed it was like the earlier versions?

I think the real proof of the pudding will be the WH40K game--depending on how closely it aligns with the minis game, that would tell you if GW now sees things the Erik Boielle way, and its degree of success--especially if they do go the route of exulting in rather than deconstructing the themes of the minis game--will indicate the value of that approach.

Personally I think you're probably right, from a business standpoint Rifts-like gonzo exultation would be the way to go today, the only question would be how to tune it so that mayhem and ultra-violence are viable from the long-term play standpoint. In other words, minimizing the PC-mortality vs. challenge tradeoff--perhaps through crunch or interplayer competition à la Rune.

So....assuming GW (which isn't making the money it used to) looks at the new WH40k rpgs (which aren't all published yet so we don't actually know about all the different styles of play), takes back the licence from BI and knocks out two new gore-fest RPGs for fantasy and sci-fi catering to your perceived target market, early teen boys. What then?

Assuming your teens lap up the game (Which I'm not convinced by - I think gore tends to be more visual, hence slasher films and games, not so much books), what happens to all that time they spent buying, making and painting the models they currently love? It gets spent playing this wondrous new product. As does a far smaller proportion of mum and dad's money. Slaughtering mooks as a demi-god may be fun for a few sessions, but running a long-term high level campaign that challenges players is difficult at the best of times, without throwing in new teenage GMs. Any experienced GM who can do it well is more than capable of utilising the existing WFRP. If a few sessions of tabletop rpgs don't provide enough colour for your teenagers they may not even switch back to wargaming and you've lost valuable revenue.  

It might not be a great time to be a miniatures manufacturer, but I suspect it's even worse for rpg manufacturers. Apocalypse may breath some new life into GW's figures, as did LOTR, but I don't think it will last as long. Anything that might distract the target market from forking out for a Baneblade and some Blood Angel squads will not help GW maintain their position as the predominant wargames company.

Quote from: Joshua Ford(Which I'm not convinced by - I think gore tends to be more visual, hence slasher films and games, not so much books).

Aye, well, it isn't so much gore as, er, whatever the hell it is that GW does. Someone buys their books as by all accounts Black Library does okay for itself.

I mean, Black Library has three sort of imprints - Black Library which does Warhammer Pulp, Black Flame which does Other (principally 2000ad) pulp and their recent Solaris which kind of looks like they want to get in to something other than pulp.

And rifts is a good example, because although you can start out as a dragon or owner of a glitter boy and boom gun its actually very playable. And I'd argue that roleplaying games that act like video games are likly to be easier to play, as gamers today are likly to be so steeped in them that they are very familiar with the material.

After all, it is when players discover that they can't act like the Master Chief (or, dare I say it, the Marine from Doom) that a lot of the problems start...

My Warhammer might be a little rusty, but to my recollection, most of the minis you field are nobodies, and typically die en masse.

Not only that, but the more bad-ass units are very much susceptable to most attacks, and are really only differentiated by slightly increased stats.

In which case, WFRP is a pretty damn good representation of the game.

So, are you referring to the Warhammer fluff?  Because really, it's the fluff that's not a very good representation of the game.

Quotemost of the minis you field are nobodies, and typically die en masse.

Those would be NPCs. Or do you like playing in RPGs where you get to follow around taking orders from the cool guys?

Plus, I mean, no one ever really dies in warhammer. Unless you drop em and stand on them or something. They always get right up for the next battle. Respawn almost.

If you got unlimited respawns things would be better. Grand Theft Horsecart, where if you 'die' you just end up WASTED at the nearest Barber Surgeon.

Other than that, yeah, fluff. Mostly. The novels and such merchandising play more off the fluff certainly. And the upcoming MMORPGs are likly to be very heavily WoW inspired in terms of mechanics, and they seem to be pretty well recieved, so I don't think anyone would really mind to much. And in Dawn of War your commander dies over and over again, and you just build him again with no real ill effects.

Quote from: Erik BoiellePlus, I mean, no one ever really dies in warhammer. Unless you drop em and stand on them or something. They always get right up for the next battle. Respawn almost.

What?  What are you talking about?!  People die like fucking crazy!  They don't just "respawn"...the ranks refill!  What, do you think that the Vampire Counts just bonk the Bretonnians on the head with a Nerf sword and say, "Pip pip, old chap!  I have bested thee!  Lay down on the ground!"?  I rather seriously doubt it.

You're clamoring for more violence, then claiming that nobody dies?!  Your arguments are creating a paradox that is sucking the oxygen from my brain!  This ain't Valhalla, son...this is Wahammer!

Quote from: Erik BoielleOther than that, yeah, fluff. Mostly. The novels and such merchandising play more off the fluff certainly. And the upcoming MMORPGs are likly to be very heavily WoW inspired in terms of mechanics, and they seem to be pretty well recieved, so I don't think anyone would really mind to much. And in Dawn of War your commander dies over and over again, and you just build him again with no real ill effects.

It's being well-received because it's an MMORPG, not a table-top RPG.  They are two completely different beasts.  And do you think you're going to start off fuck-awesome?  Hell no you're not!  You're going to have to grind your heart and soul out like every other MMO ever made!

Your argument is starting to confuse me.  It sounds like your issue is less that the RPG isn't true to the source material, but that the fluff isn't true to the source material.  In which case:  blame the authors of the novels you're reading, not the RPG.

If you want crazy-over-the-top-bad-assery-that-makes-no-goddamn-sense, try Exalted.  That's what that game does.  The world of Warhammer is dark, gritty, and an altogether shitty place to live.  The fact that most people die a horrible, violent death before they reach 30 is part of the setting's charm.  Not everyone's a hero.  That one in 100 (1,000?  10,000?)that makes it out of the muck, who has stared death in the face countless times and lived to see another day, who has faced horrors buried for ten centuries and retained his sanity...now that is a hero.

If you want to, you can play that hero: the rules are right there in the book to make him.  You can play as him.  It's all layed out for you.  Just spend the XP.  Just because the Vampire Hunter in the book isn't Wolverine with a neat hat and gadgets doesn't mean he's not a bad-ass in his own right!

Quote from: Arsenic CanaryYou're clamoring for more violence, then claiming that nobody dies?!  Your arguments are creating a paradox that is sucking the oxygen from my brain!

No - No! This is crucial! Its what lets warhammer be fun and cool rather than miserable.

Its the old 'no one ever thinks of the henchmans family!' thing. Saturday morning cartoon violence at its best.

Er, yknow, if you take the stuff in a cartoon and really think about what is going on it can be really grim:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V-zxWY3vsY

I don't think Games Workshop have built a world spanning empire on pondering deep issues of violence and brutality. No. They sell power fantasies of muscle men beating people up.

It's Commando, War Stories in Pictures. If people do die it's always a swift ARRRRGGGGGHHHHH and fade to black, not a pondering of the inevitable death that awaits us all, or the true horror of war. Its kids man. They think they are immortal...

QuoteIt's being well-received because it's an MMORPG, not a table-top RPG.

Yeah, and a roleplaying game is a table-top RPG, not a wargame, so I don't think people would mind to much if the rules differ. More than they do.

QuoteIf you want crazy-over-the-top-bad-assery-that-makes-no-goddamn-sense

Like in warhammer novels and comics and fluff descriptions of heros and whatnot, yes yes.

Quote from: Erik Boiellehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V-zxWY3vsY

.

That depressed the hell out of me, thanks!

Quote from: Arsenic CanaryYour argument is starting to confuse me.  

That's because you're taking him seriously. :)

Quote from: Erik BoielleI dunno. Now is a bad time to be a toy soldier manufacturer. But I don't think it helps that Warhammer, once home to the badest dudes you could find anywhere, is now actually rather tame compared to other forms of entertainment.

They have been outgunned by their competitors.

Or their competitors actually had a business plan other then soaking the fan base for every freaking cent they had.  Privateer Press had everyone figuring that they would die a quick but painful death when I dared to step into GW's ring of wargames...   somehow I don't think that GW is laughing about the market share they have lost because of a game that only takes one $30 box to play, and with rules that don't take eons to learn.

Seriously,

My brain poped out of my skull reading this thread.  Really. Mind blowing it was.  

Okay im going to have an asprin now.

Quote from: AosThat depressed the hell out of me, thanks!

Whatever GW sells it sure ain't grim! Not even close.

I just somehow get the feeling that WFRP somehow ended up as a deconstruction of Warhammer, a musing on what it would be like trying to live as a normal person and protect your family in a world as brutal as the Warhammer world.

Which is all well and good, but, er, dudes, that ain't what sells all the toy soldiers.

Hmm. I think this is central. These worlds don't suck for people like Conan or Judge Dredd or Slaine or the Doom Marine. They are in their element - they love this shit - it is what they were born to do.

They suck for people who would rather just be left alone to fish or maybe work on the allotment but instead have to run around in a loincloth being scared all the time before being brutally slain by the bulging muscles of the aforementioned.

QuoteOr their competitors actually had a business plan

I was meaning competitors like computergames and anime and comics and whatnot. Same way that WotC likes to thing they don't compete with other roleplaying companies so much as with all the other things people can spend their time and money on, like bowling or going to the cinema.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI was meaning competitors like computergames and anime and comics and whatnot. Same way that WotC likes to thing they don't compete with other roleplaying companies so much as with all the other things people can spend their time and money on, like bowling or going to the cinema.

I would wager that GW lost more market share percentage to Privateer and the other mini's game companies then WoTC has lost to other rpg companies, though I get your point.

All I have left to add is an enormous sense of relief that GW didn't insist on Erik's 'vision' as part of the WFRP license.

Quote from: DrewAll I have left to add is an enormous sense of relief that GW didn't insist on Erik's 'vision'

But why haven't they? I really just do not understand. It seems like a level of incompetence I just don't expect from evil monolithic empires.

Why arn't they raking it in by giving the market what it wants?

GAH!

Theres nothing in, frex, this trailer

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26441.html

that would be out of place in a 40K game! Why arn't they using it? The masses go apeshit for this stuff!

I DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!!!!11111!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: Erik BoielleI DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!!!!11111!!!!!!!!!

And you never will.  So please stop rambling on about it.

Quote from: kryystAnd you never will.  So please stop rambling on about it.

You don't know why either, huh?

Quote from: Erik BoielleGah! Why is GW messing around with a piss-ant niche game! The foolishness and waste of it all genuinely makes my chest feel tight and gives me the need to sit down.

This has to be satire.  I know he said it's not, but I can't believe it's serious.

The fact that WHFRP is not a munchkiny powergaming hackfest makes it a niche game?

They are wasting the IP? Last time I checked it was one of the better-selling RPGs out there.

And I think you'll find not everyone is as enamored with Drizzt as you think they are.

Quote from: TechnomancerThe fact that WHFRP is not a munchkiny powergaming hackfest makes it a niche game?

Yes. Is there something wrong with that statement?

QuoteAnd I think you'll find not everyone is as enamored with Drizzt as you think they are.

WHO BUYS ALL HIS SODDING BOOKS THEN!!!!!!111!!!!!1111!!!!

Quote from: Erik BoielleBut why haven't they? I really just do not understand. It seems like a level of incompetence I just don't expect from evil monolithic empires.

Why arn't they raking it in by giving the market what it wants?

GAH!

Theres nothing in, frex, this trailer

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26441.html

that would be out of place in a 40K game! Why arn't they using it? The masses go apeshit for this stuff!

I DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!!!!11111!!!!!!!!!

It's pretty simple. GW believe that targetting the RPG at the the teen ultraviolence crowd would result in a siphoning off of customers from the minis game, not to mention losing a substantial number of adult players who've been fans of the game for decades. WFRP does not require figures to play, and there's no way they're going to endanger an already shrinking market by presenting it with something that threatens their largest revenue stream.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is aimed at mature kids and adults. As such it taps into a vibrant and established fanbase that the battle game simply doesn't appeal to in large numbers. That's the reason mate, simple economics. Now give up on the wailing and gnashing of teeth, your video game-Rifts hybrid simply isn't going to happen.

Quoteand there's no way they're going to endanger an already shrinking market by presenting it with something that threatens their largest revenue stream.

Well that can't be right. They make video games and MMORPGs and books targeted at their normal market (which isn't really teen - ALL of roleplaying is targetted at the same people).

And if videogames arn't a VASTLY more massive threat to their business (you don't have to buy minis for that either, AND they more) I'll eat my hat.

--

Hmmm. I think the orignal head of BI was sacked for pissing about with company money, but that was more for buying the rights to DC comics for no good reason than boneheaded creative decisions.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell that can't be right. They make video games and MMORPGs and books targeted at their normal market (which isn't really teen - ALL of roleplaying is targetted at the same people).

And if videogames arn't a VASTLY more massive threat to their business (you don't have to buy minis for that either, AND they more) I'll eat my hat.

You said you didn't understand. I offered an explanation. If you choose to reject that explanation then that's your lookout. Go back and read the Wikipedia entry I linked to upthread, it's cited as the reason why GW cancelled WFRP in the first place.

Besides, I really don't get your whole 'videogames are threatening tabletop' argument. Your continual insinuations that the two are fighting over the same demographic does not bear close examination. Plenty of people (myself included) play and enjoy both, without either eating into the time or money allocated to them respectively. Making either into a clone of the other plays to all the weaknesses of the format, and very few of the strengths.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYou don't know why either, huh?

The Warhammer RPG is simply not what you are trying to claim it is.  It's a set of rules with which you are free to do whatever you want with it.  You either don't or can't see that so every single point you are trying to make beyond that is moot.  There are high powered and low powered settings for WFRP in the same ratio that there are for other games.  There are multitudes of rule supporting the slaughter of chaos and exploration into terrible lands.  But read what you will and rant what you can.  Your raving threads continue to be as amusing as they are completely wrong and baseless.

Troll on you shining diamond Troll on!

Quote from: DrewGo back and read the Wikipedia entry I linked to upthread, it's cited as the reason why GW cancelled WFRP in the first place.

Its not because it eats in to their market, its that compared to making miniatures making RPGs is a waste of time. So someone looked at it and saw that they could spend £X and get £Y in return doing RPGs or spend £X and get £Z making a new ork chariot and Z>>Y, explaining to investors why you are wasting your time and their money gets tricky. They could take the money you are wasting and stick it in porn or something and get more in return.

This is why things get cancelled - its not that they don't make cash or threaten 40K, it's because they don't make ENOUGH cash for the investment.

Making RPGs is always going to be a waste of time (compared to making miniatures) and so a bit of a hobby for GW, but if it is to much of a waste of time it gets cancelled. Again. They set up these little sub companies to try to insulate them a bit from the meatgrinder, but there is still a limit to what they will put up with.

Question: Is the case of Privateer and their Iron Kingdoms RPG instructive in this regard? It is, or was, selling well enough, yes? Is this due to its differences from the mini games, its similarity to them, something else?

Quote from: kryystThere are high powered and low powered settings for WFRP

If it is supposed to be high powered the game sucks.

Quote from: Erik BoielleIf it is supposed to be high powered the game sucks.

Then you're nowhere near as familiar with the rules as you claim to be. The game covers an entire spectrum of power levels, from lowly Ratcatchers to nigh unstoppable Wizard Lords.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityQuestion: Is the case of Privateer and their Iron Kingdoms RPG instructive in this regard? It is, or was, selling well enough, yes? Is this due to its differences from the mini games, its similarity to them, something else?

I don't think so. It took them ages to get the iron kingdom roleplaying stuff out, I believe because they spent the time on the more profitable miniatures stuff.

And they may not be a public company, so they don't have to be as mercenary about it.

So for them the RPG is also likly to be essentially a hobby or labour of love than a sensible business decision.

Quote from: Drewto nigh unstoppable Wizard Lords.

How many people do you know who play it like that, even though evidence suggests it should be a popular form?

Erik's arguement, summed up:

Warhammer should do X.

Video Games already do X.

Response: if you want X, do video games.

Eriks reply: I want X.X.x.x.x.x.x.x.x.xx.x.x!

Being an inferior clone of video games is not the way to increase profitability. You want to compete with videogames you do it by providing something they don't/can't.  Right now what you are arguing sounds a hell of a lot like 'Vanilla Ice cream would be more popular if it tasted more like Chocolate Ice Cream' and makes about as much sense.

Warhammer already does X. To a greater or lesser extent Video Games nicked X from them!

They have a huge line of X books, toys, videogames, T-shirts etc!

It's that for some bloody reason the roleplaying game does Y that gets me!

Quote from: Erik BoielleHow many people do you know who play it like that, even though evidence suggests it should be a popular form?

I've played several Warhammer campaigns with highly powered characters, from the early days of 1E onward.

It's also deeply ironic that you ask this question. If the "evidence" (which you've yet to cite) suggests that this form of play is the most attractive, then surely the vast majority of WFRP players would already be doing so? They don't seem to be, which neatly counters the entirety of your argument.

Face it, you're trying to lend some sort of universal appeal to your own tastes. Videogames are popular, ergo making WFRP more like one would result in the game gaining greater popularity. I could make the same spurious argument using soccer, chess or soap operas as my examples.

By all means state your preferences, but your not convincing anyone when you claim your proposal would somehow make WFRP the most played game evah.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWarhammer already does X. To a greater or lesser extent Video Games nicked X from them!

They have a huge line of X books, toys, videogames, T-shirts etc!

It's that for some bloody reason the roleplaying game does Y that gets me!

That's because RPG's by their nature do Y very well indeed. You're just going to have to accept that, and stop whining.

Quote from: DrewIt's also deeply ironic that you ask this question. If the "evidence" (which you've yet to cite) suggests that this form of play is the most attractive, then surely the vast majority of WFRP players would already be doing so? They don't seem to be, which neatly counters the entirety of your argument.

I don't think so. I think he's saying that if you present someone with a chocolate cake, they'll take that over the sponge one. Trouble is, that there are only so many varieties of chocolate cake, whilst there are loads of other types of cake. Oddly, he's arguing for the 3 book 40k model, but ignoring the first 2, leaving only the space marine one. That limits options and in an RPG that isn't what is expected.

I see what he means, but i'm by no means convinced.

Quote from: Erik BoielleIf it is supposed to be high powered the game sucks.

Not that I expect you to be able to, since this thread is now 12 pages in and you haven't yet.  But what's your definition of High Power and how is it that you don't find Warhammer capable of doing it?

Quote from: Erik BoielleHow many people do you know who play it like that, even though evidence suggests it should be a popular form?

The fact that most people do not play it like that should tell you something about which play style is more popular.  It's not the mindless hack and slash style, no matter how much you want it to be or how strongly you insist that it is.

EDIT-Should have read further, Drew already beat me to it.

Quote from: One Horse TownI don't think so. I think he's saying that if you present someone with a chocolate cake, they'll take that over the sponge one. Trouble is, that there are only so many varieties of chocolate cake, whilst there are loads of other types of cake. Oddly, he's arguing for the 3 book 40k model, but ignoring the first 2, leaving only the space marine one. That limits options and in an RPG that isn't what is expected.

If cake is the new metaphor then WFRP is the entire counter at the bakery, where chocolate is just one of the flavours on display. Erik is arguing that said confection should be the only variety available, solely because he believes that's what everyone wants all the time, whether it be for weddings, birthdays or bun fights.

QuoteI see what he means, but i'm by no means convinced.

Yeah, his point is fairly obvious. It just has very little support outside of Erik's own tenuous multimedia demographical analysis.

Quote from: kryystNot that I expect you to be able to, since this thread is now 12 pages in and you haven't yet.  But what's your definition of High Power and how is it that you don't find Warhammer capable of doing it?

Hmmm. Well, to an extent I mean 'like other popular roleplaying games'.

Er, from the top

DnD - okay, you start low but swiftly gain HP and whatnot so you are definate Heros. Not part of the masses.

White Wolf - Vampires, werewolves, Exalted obviously. Maybe low down the pecking order of, but certainly

Palladium - A starting rifts party might be a Juicer, Glitter Boy, Dragon and Cyber Knight.

And, er, if Warhammer ever had a USP it was being More. I mean, they invented the whole heroic stature miniatures thing. Where other people had nice, clean fantasy, Games Workshop was chaos spiky bits of gothic death and whatnot.

So anyway, a lot of it is is about the kinda thing, you know, where battle plans might involve the 3rd and 4th Infantry Battalions hold the left wing while a party of magical teenagers launch an attack in the center.

With WFRP, you are really one of the masses. Elite soldiers are way better than you (I mean, presumably there are whole units of knights and Inner Circle Knights tooling about. But, even though the rules don't really cover it, there is still a kind off assumption that mighty DnD high levelers are running around - you just arn't them (By WFRP rules, a complete Master Wizard, representing, so I am told, seventy sessions of play is still a gimp compared to the mythical battle wizards, or that at least is the excuse given for magic in the RPG being Less than magic in the wargame. And, I mean, ponder the stating of Warhammer big characters, like Karl-Franz or Abaddon the despoiler. Either they break the rules are are Uber, or they end up looking a little - Wet)

So I dunno. In a D20 game you could easily have a standard party of a wardancer, bright wizard, giant slayer and imperial Champion running dungeons filled with demons and whatnot.

(Then you get my own opinion, which is that after playing Kratos or this Baldur guy who is a cybernetically enhanced Aesir-analog who battle endless armies of Machines RPGs should get with the program and realise it isn't the eighties any more).

[votes this the worst thread ever]

-=Grim=-

Quote from: DrewIf cake is the new metaphor then WFRP is the entire counter at the bakery, where chocolate is just one of the flavours on display. Erik is arguing that said confection should be the only variety available, solely because he believes that's what everyone wants all the time, whether it be for weddings, birthdays or bun fights.

Ah, but GW are the worlds leading chocolate manufacturer.

And its not so much chocolate as GW makes cakes while WFRP is, i dunno, vomit flavoured tofu.

And lack of magical healing. Makes it really difficult to run WoW style things. And there is a disincentive to use magic, which is always gonna cut down on its use.

Quote from: GrimJesta[votes this the worst thread ever]

Pah!

You know I'm right.

Warhammer setting book for DnD4! It'd be HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--

Being one of the masses does make gaming more difficult aswell - for instance here:-

http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=285

people are discussing why, in the demo for Dark Heresy, the PCs are brought in to do a job which would seemingly be easier for the soldier who are already there to deal with (squad of guard Veterans with heavy weapons and a Sergent and Comisaar vs. a handful of green recruits with sidearms?).

If instead there were a bunch of level 0 grunts hanging around outside the mine and the level 5 Troubleshooting PCs turned up, obviously the locals can't deal with it, and they had better stay out of the way while the real men work.

Quote from: GrimJesta[votes this the worst thread ever]

-=Grim=-

Yep. I'm not even going to bother any more.

At least I can take solace in the fact that WFRP won't be changing into a flavourless, homogenous appendage of the war game any time soon.

Quote from: Erik BoiellePah!

You know I'm right.

I know I've been GMing the new WFRP since it came out and the old WFRP since 1990, played the tabletop game since 1987 and have been reading the novels since they started them. In other words, I know you're not right.

Have you read any of the novels? They're nothing like you're claiming the Old World to be.

And yes, I've run some high powered tabletop games and even have the bonus of getting to play (for once) in one. The game handles chewing through hordes of Skaven quiet nicely: realistic, but still heroic.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: DrewAt least I can take solace in the fact that WFRP won't be changing into a flavourless, homogenous appendage of the war game any time soon.

You know BI would do better if it did though. And all those little warhammer fanboys would love it!

And I don't understand why they haven't. They still got endless hatemail and death threats, and the Green Ronin dude said he had issues with what he liked and what 'the fans' liked, so why didn't they act like the evil faceless megacorperation they are and cash in?

It's so ODD!

Quote from: Erik BoielleYou know BI would do better if it did though. And all those little warhammer fanboys would love it!

No they wouldn't. Those little wargame fanboys usually aren't into tabletop RPGs. If they were they'd play them. There's plenty out there that would cater to the bloodshed the wargame is about. BI is smart. They know who the target audience is: people who love the setting and think the wargame is somewhat cheesy. Just read the forums for the game.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJestaJust read the forums for the game.

Pfffft. Thats like reading No Mutants Allowed to do a fallout game or Outpost Gallifrey for Dr. Who! Hell, its practically like reading ILoveMacs for comments on how to improve the new version of Office.

The people they want do play roleplaying games. It's people who like the setting but currently play DnD. More off em, you see.

Or ZionistsForTheDestructionOfArabs for thoughts on dealing with Palestine. Or the KKK Klan Forums for US immigration issues.

Well possibly not*, but forums do tend to be self selecting. It might be more interesting to study people who might be invested but arn't why they arn't

*Or, at least, not anymore! :0)

--

Incidentally, my own preference might be something like this:-

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26497.html

(again, another trailer for too human).

This time the guy goes on about video games being the Eighth Art Form and how by telling Serious Stories with Serious Art Direction and related Srs bsns video games will blah blah blah.

The dude has a cyber-thor kicking the shit out of mecha-goblins. In space. In dungeons. If he can claim art, anyone can. Even Warhammer. And not a pansy gimp in sight!

Quote from: Pierce InverarityQuestion: Is the case of Privateer and their Iron Kingdoms RPG instructive in this regard? It is, or was, selling well enough, yes? Is this due to its differences from the mini games, its similarity to them, something else?

I went with it as a response to the idea that GW's lessoning market share was entirely due to video games instead of being partially due to other companies coming out and using a different game/business model.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI don't think so. It took them ages to get the iron kingdom roleplaying stuff out, I believe because they spent the time on the more profitable miniatures stuff.

And they may not be a public company, so they don't have to be as mercenary about it.

So for them the RPG is also likly to be essentially a hobby or labour of love than a sensible business decision.

Only after the adventure trilogy for which there wasn't a huge delay iirc.

The whole thing started out as a side business to their day jobs, which is sad because had they been able to get the rpg books into distro sooner they might have ended up with better market share for the RPG.

See, This:-

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26524.html

is almost sufficiently Metal for warhammer.

I mean, not quite, but almost.

The mask was forged from the steel flesh of the fire beast himself...







Note the use of cultists. And the trademark Games Workshop inflatable ax.

And it is the delta between that and WFRP that bugs me.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e310/HonorableThief/Brutal%20Legend/brutallegend1107.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e310/HonorableThief/Brutal%20Legend/brutallegend2108.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e310/HonorableThief/Brutal%20Legend/brutallegend3109.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e310/HonorableThief/Brutal%20Legend/brutallegend4110.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e310/HonorableThief/Brutal%20Legend/brutallegend5111.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e310/HonorableThief/Brutal%20Legend/brutallegend6112.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e310/HonorableThief/Brutal%20Legend/brutallegend7113.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e310/HonorableThief/Brutal%20Legend/brutallegend8114.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e310/HonorableThief/Brutal%20Legend/brutallegend9115.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e310/HonorableThief/Brutal%20Legend/brutallegend10116.jpg

Quote from: Erik BoielleHmmm. Well, to an extent I mean 'like other popular roleplaying games'.

Er, from the top

DnD - okay, you start low but swiftly gain HP and whatnot so you are definate Heros. Not part of the masses.

Warhammer - that's the point of fate points.  That's what sets PC's asside from the masses hell they can live through things that no one else can.  By the time they gain aprox 1000 experience and hit their second career they are  several steps above what the masses are in terms of capabilities and potential.   By the time they hit their 3rd or 4th careers they are near God like by comparison more then capable of taking on almost anything thrown at them.  That's also just assuming a normal mundane equipment progression.  You throw a couple rune items or misc magic items they way and they can become Epic heroes.

QuoteWhite Wolf - Vampires, werewolves, Exalted obviously. Maybe low down the pecking order of, but certainly

Palladium - A starting rifts party might be a Juicer, Glitter Boy, Dragon and Cyber Knight.

How do this even approach as a comparison?  Entirely different perspectives of game play.  On the other end of the spectrum I could bitch that Warhammer characters are over powering compared to a standard CoC character.  

QuoteAnd, er, if Warhammer ever had a USP it was being More. I mean, they invented the whole heroic stature miniatures thing. Where other people had nice, clean fantasy, Games Workshop was chaos spiky bits of gothic death and whatnot.

So is the RPG if you want it to be.  The interior art is all about gothic spikey death.

QuoteBut, even though the rules don't really cover it, there is still a kind off assumption that mighty DnD high levelers are running around - you just arn't them (By WFRP rules, a complete Master Wizard, representing, so I am told, seventy sessions of play is still a gimp compared to the mythical battle wizards,

Again your record skips and repeats.  But I'm bored so what the hell.  The battle wizards are epic wizards, in Warhammer.  Your right that a PC will likely never attain that level.  But again in DnD standards PC's aren't going to be approaching the canon DnD legends like Elminster, Bigbee, Drizzit etc... They are legendary characters that don't conform to the standard DnD rules either.  But a Warhammer Master wizard is extremely powerful and capable of dealing out death on massive scales.  

QuoteSo I dunno. In a D20 game you could easily have a standard party of a wardancer, bright wizard, giant slayer and imperial Champion running dungeons filled with demons and whatnot.

You can easily do the same in Warhammer.  They won't be starting characters, in the same fashion what your describing aren't starting characters in D20.  It's almost like you've never read or played the game before and are just making things up.

Quote from: kryystWarhammer - that's the point of fate points.  That's what sets PC's asside from the masses hell they can live through things that no one else can.  By the time they gain aprox 1000 experience and hit their second career they are  several steps above what the masses are in terms of capabilities and potential.   By the time they hit their 3rd or 4th careers they are near God like by comparison more then capable of taking on almost anything thrown at them.

Hmmm. See, what I'm thinking is that the units in a game of warhammer might be represented in WFRP by, say, fifty Knights in full plate on warhorses led by a Captain.

In a game of DnD they might be fifty level 1 fighters (being elites - most of the baggage being commoners with spears).

Hell, if a lord wanted something done, he could easily send out ten knights of the inner circle led by a champion. Riding a griffon. He'll have these dudes sitting around.

It's largely just an assumption that the PCs use the same advancement rules as NPCs. So, er, assuming  characters, it might take ten sessions in WFRP to get to the lowest levels of elite soldiery, while in a DnD game you might start there and at the end of the first session start to move ahead in to capital H Hero terratory.

I think you forget just how much 'trash' you can slaughter in, especially, computer RPGs, but also just other tabletop games. And just what 'trash' can consist of.

Quote from: Erik BoielleHmmm. See, what I'm thinking is that the units in a game of warhammer might be represented in WFRP by, say, fifty Knights in full plate on warhorses led by a Captain.

Think of what your saying here?  50 knights in full plate armour in Warhammer is a serious threat they absorb on averate 8 points of damage on every hit.  That means that most common threats have a 50% chance of doing no damage at all, that's assuming they even hit in the first place.  They'll pretty much walk through most things you'd throw at them of mundane origins and put up a hell of a fight against things not of mundane origins.  

The more you speak, the more you prove you don't understand Warhammer at all.

QuoteIt's largely just an assumption that the PCs use the same advancement rules as NPCs. So, er, assuming  characters, it might take ten sessions in WFRP to get to the lowest levels of elite soldiery, while in a DnD game you might start there and at the end of the first session start to move ahead in to capital H Hero terratory.  

So, let me get this straight.  So your suggesting that in DnD a 1st level fighter  and after 1 session is now in Hero territory.  That's one hell of a first session.

What I mean is that a unit of eight models on the table might 'really' be a unit of fifty dudes or something. And there are gonna be load of these guys wondering about the place. A big battle might involve tens of thousands of guys.

Er, assuming Archeon doesn't, like, lead a horde of ten chaos knights or whatnot.

I dunno. It is just a really different dynamic. And one that is remarkably unusual in fantasy. In a battle where the greatest champion really only has 10%ws and an attack over THOUSANDS of knights, it isn't really bold individual actions that make a difference.

Er, this compares and contrasts to something like Dynasty Warriors, where guy can rack up, like five hundred kills in a single battle and really its just a fight between names NPCs surrounded by faceless hordes.

I dunno. Aside from being cool, single dudes packing in the combat power of like fifty of the Emperors finest knights makes it a lot easier to explain WHY they keep getting sent on epic quests to save the world.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWhat I mean is that a unit of eight models on the table might 'really' be a unit of fifty dudes or something. And there are gonna be load of these guys wondering about the place. A big battle might involve tens of thousands of guys.....said a bunch of other things

So your original point that the WFRP didn't have as much badassittude as it's source material from video games, the table top game, other games like Gears of War that have nothing to do with Warhammer in the first place, but you blathered on about them anyway.

WFRP does, rather easily handle the level of badassittude that you are using as a reference to your argument.  It does it in spades if you want to.  The rules are there, they are easily supported and can be done in different ways depending on how you want to model it.  

You can't bring up a single point to the contrary yet you still hold onto this rant of yours, you silly, silly troll.

Sorry, I'm not sure you are bright enough to understand what I'm getting at.

Ah well, I'm sure I'll rant on this again in a week or so.

Quote from: Erik BoiellePfffft. Thats like reading No Mutants Allowed to do a fallout game.

And reading this thread is NOTHING like that.
you apparently want Unreal Tournamecraft: Gears of Black Sabbath at the gaming table...

and I'm saying it will never happen.

Quote from: kregmosieryou apparently want Unreal Tournamecraft: Gears of Black Sabbath at the gaming table...

and I'm saying it will never happen.

You may be right, but Holy Hell would that not be AWESOME!!!!!!











Do you mind if I steal the title?

:-)

Only there should be, like Dynasty Warrior or some other crowd combat game in there.

I mean, common, the Space Marine fans would go apeshit!

Eh? Eh? Am I wrong?

Lars is young and charismatic, but unsure how to guide his people. Eddie knows that Lars has the look and the power to be a rock star, and sets out to make him one - the genesis of the roadshow they'll put together to take down the demons. Their first stop is the Crushing Pit, where many of the young men of the village have been abducted in order to mine for ancient car parts. Without tools, they're left to endlessly bang their heads against the wall, building up grossly dispropotionate neck muscles. Lars wonders aloud what can be done with a bunch of listless kids who only know how to bang their long haired heads up and down all day. 'Start a revolution,' Eddie solmnly intones in response.

And looklook:- Heres another one - Bionic Commando

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26558.html?type=flv

And I remember when I used to wear out tapes of Aliens watching the bit with the drop ship over and over again. Kids today! They don't know their born!

Sure, but I can pull a better one from the old brainpan if if you want a good one. :D

You know what?  I think, in the course of this entire discussion, i finally completely understand exactly what you're saying!  

You're saying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1aGetl7cX0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1aGetl7cX0)


Is that correct?  Cause I think i'm right there with you. :haw:

SO, to recap, BI fucked up by not somehow distilling the visceral 'coolness' that is/was the minis game for their rpg...right?

I can certainly agree.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYou may be right, but Holy Hell would that not be AWESOME!!!!!!

Do you mind if I steal the title?

Quote from: kregmosierYou're saying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1aGetl7cX0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1aGetl7cX0)

Precisely!

There can't be a gamer on the planet who doesn't know how this works:-

The scene is the inside of a dropship fill with troopers strapped to the side.
Detonations rock the craft, and occasionally a shower of sparks sprays across the nervous soldiers.

The rear of the 'ship is in shadow.

An officer is shouting in to a headset:-

'I want first and third squads in blocking positions! Those bastards are gonna come swarming out the back when the hammer drops, and I want a kill zone to take them as they run!'

In the shadows at the back a lighter flares and the coal of a cigar glows brightly.

'Third platoon will provide suppression fire to cover the assault - and watch out for those turrets!'

Through the window we see several other dropships hit by flack and spiral in to the ground, smashing through huge, alien towers as they do so.

'Stranski!'

The man at the rear leans forward. We can see he is an enormous mass of muscle and scar tissue.

'You are going in the front door!'

Closeup:- Stranskis' huge chistled jaw from the side. He smiles.

...

Quote from: Erik BoiellePrecisely!

There can't be a gamer on the planet who doesn't know how this works:-

The scene is the inside of a dropship fill with troopers strapped to the side.
Detonations rock the craft, and occasionally a shower of sparks sprays across the nervous soldiers.
*snip for length*
The man at the rear leans forward. We can see he is an enormous mass of muscle and scar tissue.

'You are going in the front door!'

Closeup:- Stranskis' huge chistled jaw from the side. He smiles.

...

And you can't do that with any number of existing games for what reason?

Shit, man, I could do that with GURPS, which is held up as a paragon of realistic lethality by some. I could do with... Hmm... lessee... Fading Suns, Traveller, CORPS, D20 Modern with the Future expansion (yuck), Alternity (less Yuck, but still), Runequest with a couple of pages of houserules, the WoD with a few less houserules (Bonus prize:WoD weapons are incredibly non-lethal, which means Stranski can take dozen of hits before dropping), I'll bet money I could do it with the BI Dark Heresy you are bitching so much about.*

hell, I could run it with about anything at all. that's the Fucking GM"S FUCKING JOB!

Not the game itself. The GM. All you gave was some cool flavor text and lead up to the actual 'stuff'.  Big whomp. Sounds like you need to give your GM a caffeen drip and STFU, that's about it. If you are the GM just slap yourself until you feed those lines to your players instead of whining to the rest of us that your games aren't totally metal awesome hamburger hill style.


*AFMBE, Shadowrun (any edition), Champions through a SF hero filter.... the list is mother fucking endless....

yeah, see...i think he's saying he wants it implicitly defined, like in the rules.  I can only assume he means something like HōL...or he's just being contrary.

cause yeah...pretty much any rpg system in the universe can emulate pretty much anything else.  system matters, but not if you take what you want from one and tack it onto another with, like, gorilla glue.  and setting is seriously so much fluff that (again) just tack that set-dressing on and rock out.

Quote from: SpikeAnd you can't do that with any number of existing games for what reason?

Shit, man, I could do that with GURPS, which is held up as a paragon of realistic lethality by some. I could do with... Hmm... lessee... Fading Suns, Traveller, CORPS, D20 Modern with the Future expansion (yuck), Alternity (less Yuck, but still), Runequest with a couple of pages of houserules, the WoD with a few less houserules (Bonus prize:WoD weapons are incredibly non-lethal, which means Stranski can take dozen of hits before dropping), I'll bet money I could do it with the BI Dark Heresy you are bitching so much about.*

hell, I could run it with about anything at all. that's the Fucking GM"S FUCKING JOB!

Not the game itself. The GM. All you gave was some cool flavor text and lead up to the actual 'stuff'.  Big whomp. Sounds like you need to give your GM a caffeen drip and STFU, that's about it. If you are the GM just slap yourself until you feed those lines to your players instead of whining to the rest of us that your games aren't totally metal awesome hamburger hill style.


*AFMBE, Shadowrun (any edition), Champions through a SF hero filter.... the list is mother fucking endless....

If it would shut him up I'd mail him my copy of HoL. As much as I like it, I like his whiney 'Its not a videogamemovie' bitch even less.  Of course, then I'd just lose my book 'cause I know he'd totally keep bitching anyway and still not get that that shit don't come from rules, it comes from the GM. And the players, but largely the GM.  I could totally run Exalted with Runequest, I just make all the NPC's have half the characters starting skills and let the players describe bad ass wirefu shit.  Hell, I could even award +10-20% for 'stunting' to really steal Exalted's thunder. Toss in free runes for 'powerz' and presto, superhuman badassess with a ruleset generally held as gritty and lethal.

Or do I simply have a totally fucked up grasp on what rules actually DO at the table?

I saw a copy of Inquisitor in a shop the other day. Maybe that's what Erik's after ???

I don't know if I agree with Erik's criticisms of WFRP.  I've only flipped through the book and read other's opinions on it and it sounds pretty cool.

But I do find Erik's vision quite compelling and focused and I see no reason why a game designed for high-powered, grim, ass-kicking space marines who really smash some shit up wouldn't be quite cool.

Quote from: GrimJesta[votes this the worst thread ever]

Indeed.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSorry, I'm not sure you are bright enough to understand what I'm getting at.

Ah well, I'm sure I'll rant on this again in a week or so.

Your just so cute, I could pinch you.

Quote from: SpikeAnd you can't do that with any number of existing games for what reason?

Yeah, but it is gonna be tricky with WFRP, which I feel is odd given it is supposed to be a warhammer game. And it isn't the kind of adventure they write. Again, I feel, oddly.

I dunno. As a result it makes life more difficult - you can't rip off stories or characters from warhammer novels, computer games, comics, anime or whatnot that are surely stuff that  roleplayers like.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYeah, but it is gonna be tricky with WFRP, which I feel is odd given it is supposed to be a warhammer game. And it isn't the kind of adventure they write. Again, I feel, oddly.

I dunno. As a result it makes life more difficult - you can't rip off stories or characters from warhammer novels, computer games, comics, anime or whatnot that are surely stuff that  roleplayers like.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You must have mistaken a deck of Munchkin cards for the WFRP corebook and flew into a knee-jerk fury. Have you even played the BI game?

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJestaYou have no idea what you're talking about.

Ah! fantastic! Can you tell me which genre sources you draw on when playing your WFRP games? How you deal with players who want to play someone like such fan favorites and Gotrek or Hellbrant Grimm or Magnus Darkblade (or Kal Jerico or Lorken or Ragnar Blackmane)?

QuoteHave you even played the BI game?

Actually no. I've played some WFRP1, generally games that go something like 'PCs are at an inn. A noble insults them, so they murder him and promptly go on the run from the law'. Then the game falls apart and we go back to Vampire. And I've played a lot more GURPS and Call of Cthulhu, and between them I am convinced I never want to play another game where the PCs are normal people with no cool powerz ever again.

Sadly, I am an unreconstructed gamer who reads cheesy fantasy novels and likes anime, and it's just easier and more fun when everyone can act like they are in a cartoon.

Quote from: GrimJestaHave you even played the BI game?

Quote from: Erik BoielleActually no.

Things make a whole lot more sense now.


.

And I'm not gonna play it until they fix the fucking thing. It isn't an order of magnitude different from first ed. As far as I can see the most important changes they made were to slow progression by about half and nerf attacks a bit. Theres very little in there that plays to what I like about warhammer.

Why the hell would I want to play something I don't like! Hell, thats what I'm going on about! It doesn't make me want to play it, and its a warhammer game!

And I played Fire Warrior! All the way through!

That said, I haven't even been getting the books recently (no real interest, yknow?).

So maybe it has changed.

See, heres a thing from the BI boards - this is a character someone wants to play:-

QuoteShip’s Capitan and Ex Nobleman, Lucius Alexander Damien Picard. Lucius was born to a Imperial Noblewoman named Annette Picard after being raped by a Dark Eldar pirate. The event was hushed up and the child was raised as her own, he was never told of his father. As a young boy he yearned to explore the stars and would listen to the tales of adventure and battles told by the admirals and captains that would come to see his mother when they made port. When he was 17 his mother married an admiral named Sir William Tavington. She died later that year. Soon after her death Tavington discovers Annette’s diary. At the reading of Annette’s will he reveals that Lucius is part xenos so that he gets the fortune instead of Lucius. Tavington and Lucius dueled. Lucius drives a saber through the admiral’s heart shortly before grabbing all the money he can, getting on a ship and fleeing just as the Inquisition arrive. His appearance in records over the next few years is erratic. Until the start of the 3rd Armageddon War in 997.M41 where he is, at the age of 20 given his first command when he joined the Imperial Navy as volunteer Captain by the name of “Damien Tavington”. He fought in 7 major ship to ship conflicts and 1 ground assault. After the war he is said to have taken the ship he was commanding at the time (which he named the “Annette”) and returned to drugs and weapons smuggling and pillaging Imperial cargo vessels.

Okay. So thats Jean-Lucius Picard, the nice-half dark elf. For the record, I think it is as naff as you do*. And really, he should be doing that stuff in the game, not writing it in his character background.

But people come up with stuff like that all the time! They love this shit! Why isn't GW selling it to them!

*Or do I? It is no worse that most of the stuff I come up with. Hmmm. It is hard to live by ones own rhetoric. Certainly, his adventures sound kind of fun, and melodramatic enough. But really, don't write it in to the bloody background kid! Focus on what makes him interesting now, not what intereting things he has done before!

Quote from: Erik BoielleActually no. I've played some WFRP1, generally games that go something like 'PCs are at an inn. A noble insults them, so they murder him and promptly go on the run from the law'. Then the game falls apart and we go back to Vampire. .

And  once again you demonstrate that your real problem is shitty game masters.  The sooner you understand that the sooner the rest of us can stop having to listen to you whine.

I so want to repeat the canard 'No gaming is better than bad gaming'.  Consider it. You have yoru playstation, your xbox, your pc. Go forth and do what you enjoy. Be fruitful and pixelated.

Quote from: SpikeAnd  once again you demonstrate that your real problem is shitty game masters.

I dunno man. Abandoning game we thought we liked and moving to games that we really liked (games featuring characters like the above mentioned jean-lucius, if I am honest with myself) a lot of the problems went away.













Christ almighty but I hate elves though. Sigh. Do as I say, not as I do people!



AND he flies a ship named after his Mum! Isn't that a little weird?

Just so people understand where Erik's coming from, it's been established through previous discussions of a similar nature that:

1. He's a huge 40K fan who doesn't really know much about WH fantasy. He's never actually played WFB, although he owns a few (unpainted) WFB minis.
2. He thinks WH fantasy is basically 40K set in the Olden Days (a reasonably common misconception, but a misconception nonetheless).
3. The only fantasy fiction he's familiar with is the Slayer series.
4. He thinks WFB is about invincible "Space Marine"-type heroes hacking through hordes of rank-and-file.
5. He's not really interested in WH fantasy anyway. WFRP is just a foil for him to express his angst over the 40K RPG.

Thanks for clearing that up Herr Arnulfe. I'd just recently signed up in anticipation of royally flaming Erik for his facile understanding of Warhammer and its setting. Now I can save myself that time and aggravation.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfe2. He thinks WH fantasy is basically 40K set in the Olden Days

I'd phrase it more as 40K is warhammer in the future.

Quote(a reasonably common misconception, but a misconception nonetheless)

Seemingly a misconception held by everyone who isn't a fan of WFRP circa 1980.

Get with the program dude. It'll stop you being surprised when even the monkey is covered in skulls...

Actually, see, buried in the comment that I think warhammer is 40K in the past kinda implies you think 40K is what I think it is, and yet they are still making a WFRP inspired game for it. So you must admit my irritation there is justified.





--

I mean, there are always people who mistake pulp for being something more serious -

For instance, here is an article derying the ever increasing fantasy seen in Metal Gear Solid.

The game with the psychic and the dude carrying the minigun.:-

http://www.metalgearsolid.org/show_features.php?id=934

Quote from: Erik BoielleI'd phrase it more as 40K is warhammer in the future.

Aside from commonalities in art direction and the Chaos connection, they're quite different. The political setting background and underlying themes are very different.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSeemingly a misconception held by everyone who isn't a fan of WFRP circa 1980.

Uh, no. I know plenty of current players who realize the two settings are very different. The misconception is typically held by casual GW fans.

Quote from: Erik BoielleGet with the program dude. It'll stop you being surprised when even the monkey is covered in skulls...

Yeah. Here's hoping GW's art department gets its act together and remembers how stuff used to look Warhammery without gratuitous skull usage.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeAside from commonalities in art direction and the Chaos connection, they're quite different. The political setting background and underlying themes are very different.

I dunno man. I think you are wrong, and I'll debate that I think you can more or less switch elements and characters between them at will (so anything that is cool for Space Marines will likly be cool for Knightly Orders frex. And you can make a Warrior Priest with a hammer in to a, er, Space Warrior Priest with a Powe-Hammer with little difficulty), but I think the truth is that as far as the world is concerned the commonality in art direction is all that matters - a new guy isn't gonna be looking at themes or whatnot, he is just thinking those chaos knights look really cool. The setting doesn't REALLY exist beyond the few paragraphs about 'why you should collect Orks'* and any differences between the Imperium of Man and the Empire of Sigmar are really only going to be apparent to super-grognards like us. And for that matter, so probably are any differences between Lord of the Rings and Warhammer or the Forgotten Realms and warhammer.

(It might be worth knowing that 40K is also riven with discent - BI's 40k boards for instance are infested with a chap called Kage2020 who I would swear is a Didz clone (complete with his own website and followers dedicated to sucking the life and imagination out of warhammer:

http://forum.anargo-sector.net/

and a chap called Nerroth who likes the Tau (weirdo), and would like to see some non-cynical going out to do works for the greater good, even though he seemingly has no idea of how to make this work in a roleplaying game. And obviously you get lots of people who feel 40k is silly, and would rather remake it in the form of Baen Books style humourless military science fiction. And me.)

So, er,

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/15233.html

*Have you seen Flames of War? It more or less does for second world war miniatures games what Warhammer does for fantasy. And the 'what is cool about Nazis' sections are HILARIOUS!

Quote from: Erik Boielle...but I think the truth is that as far as the world is concerned the commonality in art direction is all that matters - a new guy isn't gonna be looking at themes or whatnot, he is just thinking those chaos knights look really cool. The setting doesn't REALLY exist beyond the few paragraphs about 'why you should collect Orks'* and any differences between the Imperium of Man and the Empire of Sigmar are really only going to be apparent to super-grognards like us. And for that matter, so probably are any differences between Lord of the Rings and Warhammer or the Forgotten Realms and warhammer.

As far as tabletop RPGs are concerned, setting concepts are far more important to the actual play experience than art direction is.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeAs far as tabletop RPGs are concerned, setting concepts are far more important to the actual play experience than art direction is.

I don't entirely disagree, but the art direction brings em in (roleplaying games live and die by the pitch, which is a goodly bit of why the big games involve playing vampires or supers) and players buying shopping lists to pimp their l33t dude is what shifts books.

Certainly the game is important (which is why Star Trek never gets anywhere - no one has come up with a way to play it yet), but given that DnD demonstrably works and World of Warhammer Online certainly demonstrates you can play DnD in the Warhammer World, it'd be more sensible to be selling that. I mean, ideally you wouldn't have to give up on the call of cthulhu type scenarios, but those don't really depend on playing useless wankers*, and if you force people to choose, DnD wins.

*I mean, it shouldn't be to hard to imagine Gears of War or Metal Gear Solid written up in the style of Beyond the Mountains of Madness. Right?

Quote from: Erik BoielleCertainly the game is important (which is why Star Trek never gets anywhere - no one has come up with a way to play it yet), but given that DnD demonstrably works and World of Warhammer Online certainly demonstrates you can play DnD in the Warhammer World, it'd be more sensible to be selling that.

I'm not having this argument with you, because I don't want D&D in the Warhammer world, nor do I think it would be a good idea. Those who do want it already have Wow and...well, D&D. Better to create your own niche than to compete in an already glutted one.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI mean, ideally you wouldn't have to give up on the call of cthulhu type scenarios, but those don't really depend on playing useless wankers*, and if you force people to choose, DnD wins.

Yes, but Warhammer players are cool, smart, handsome and popular people in real life. For us, escapist fantasy is playing useless wankers. :haw:

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeJust so people understand where Erik's coming from, it's been established through previous discussions of a similar nature that:

1. He's a huge 40K fan who doesn't really know much about WH fantasy. He's never actually played WFB, although he owns a few (unpainted) WFB minis.
2. He thinks WH fantasy is basically 40K set in the Olden Days (a reasonably common misconception, but a misconception nonetheless).
3. The only fantasy fiction he's familiar with is the Slayer series.
4. He thinks WFB is about invincible "Space Marine"-type heroes hacking through hordes of rank-and-file.
5. He's not really interested in WH fantasy anyway. WFRP is just a foil for him to express his angst over the 40K RPG.

Ah. It all makes sense now.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJestaAh. It all makes sense now.

-=Grim=-

Nah, we just understand it now. I'd never go so far as to say that it makes sense :deflated:

Pish.

Another example - an exchange from the BI forum:-

QuoteOk, I've seen a few things so far.

Ciphias Cain Novel - Displacer: If you got with a high caliber or large weapon, some of the time you'd be displaced elsewhere around the area.

Ravenor - Hover Chair, Analyser, Limiter

Gaunts Ghosts - The Black Ships!, I wanna see cool stats on these.

Other possible things.

Eye of Terror (novel): Eye Piece, alien tech thus bad mojo

Null Ships

Prayers

Offico Assassianarium - I would love to see the stats of their stuff in case they died.

Digi-Needler

Other wargear, purity seals, armor.

QuoteWell, seeing as players in DH don't, as a rule, have access to the limitless resources of an actual Inquisitor, don't expect many of these to be on hand for your players (except, possibly, prayers!).

Laspistols, handcannons, basic rifles, auspexes, chronometers and basic bionics are probably going to be your lot.

And, I mean, I'm sorry but that just isn't good enough. Why the fuck have they made a game where you don't get to play with the cool stuff from the rest of the Empire? What makes this a goddam warhammer game?

ITS FUCKING STUPID!!!!!

Back in 1981, Bryan Ansell said you could use Imperial Commander to:-

QuoteLead fanatic hordes of Redemptionists to cleanse, purify and generally obliterate everything every one in the very heart of the Imperium

Ride the massive 2500cc Powerbike at the head of a grim entorage to the greatest and bloodiest drug bust of all time.

Teleport down into the merciless maelstrom of a relentless assault on the desert outpost of the Red Redemption.

Hate people a lot.

How did these geniuses get it so wrong today?

Quote from: Erik BoielleAnd, I mean, I'm sorry but that just isn't good enough. Why the fuck have they made a game where you don't get to play with the cool stuff from the rest of the Empire? What makes this a goddam warhammer game?

Well, in WFRP it's pretty common to see a one-eyed grave robber fighting off skeletons with only a rusty shovel. And that's the way people like it. So maybe you should draw a clearer distinction between the two settings, because it's causing confusion here. "Warhammer" without a suffix typically refers to the fantasy setting, as does "Empire".

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeWell, in WFRP it's pretty common to see a one-eyed grave robber fighting off skeletons with only a rusty shovel.

And yet everything else Games Workshop produces has might musclebound heros hiting demons with axes. Have you seen the bloody comics? Or the little men?

CHRIST! DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB DUMB.

Given that is is so disconnected from the rest of the stuff GW makes, why does it have the Warhammer name on it? All that is going to do is confuse customers who buy it expecting Warhammer, and put off people who wouldn't touch warhammer with a barge pole.

I mean, seriously, if someone came to you and said 'I love the wargame. And I love the novels, and the computer games and I read White Dwarf every month and I have a star of chaos tattooed on my forehead. I want to play a roleplaying game like that' would you honestly recomend WFRP?

If not, why the hell are GW publishing it?

Quote from: Erik BoielleAnd yet everything else Games Workshop produces has might musclebound heros hiting demons with axes. Have you seen the bloody comics? Or the little men?

For the upteenth time, you're wrong. Musclebound barbarians are the exception rather than the norm outside of Norsca. Human Hero-level characters in WFB often aren't equipped with magic weapons at all because it's often not cost-effective. Magical weapons are specialized military gear, and WFRP is placed in the civilian version of the Warhammer setting. So sure, you'll face Nurglings and Daemonettes of Slaanesh, but you'll be fighting them with mundane weapons and wits, rather than military hardware.

This is what adventurers in Warhammer fantasy look like:
(http://draknastet.sverok.net/warhammer/riekland.JPG)

(http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/WAR_Hammer_v_Black-Orc.jpg)

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/11137.html

I dunno. Mordheim has kind of died along with specialist games, while Forge World who make, yknow, baneblades and titans and whatnot are going strong. While World of Warhammer Online is going to have magic swords and spells out the wazoo, and I don't seriously think it is going to hurt it any.

And how long is it going to be before we see Primarch models...

Quote from: Erik BoielleI dunno. Mordheim has kind of died along with specialist games, while Forge World who make, yknow, baneblades and titans and whatnot are going strong. While World of Warhammer Online is going to have magic swords and spells out the wazoo, and I don't seriously think it is going to hurt it any.

The non-core games come and go with the seasons, as they always have at GW, but that's not the point. Computer games need lots of magic items and gadgets to keep the fun going; tabletop RPGs don't. I've seen demos of Warhammer Online, and while it may be a fine computer game in its own right, it definitely takes some liberties with the Warhammer setting.

Quote from: Erik Boielle(http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/media/images/WAR_Hammer_v_Black-Orc.jpg)

That's a third or fourth career character.

Next!

Regarding 40K, it's likely that the really heavy artillery won't make an appearence until the Space Marine RPG is released. Hardly ideal, but there you go.

Quote from: DrewThat's a third or fourth career character.

Dude, thats an eighty session investment!

The game I know works more like this:-

http://www.yog-sothoth.com/docs2/misc-wfrp-3-feathers-game.mp3

Random murder of drugged guards and sundry hanging about in pubs.

Quote from: Erik BoielleDude, thats an eighty session investment!

No, you spend 30 minutes allocating the XP and then you're ready to go. See Andy Law's recent Gamesday scenario using 5,000 XP characters.

My experience tells me that character generation is one of the few parts of a ruleset that tend to get used as written.

Ponder, if you will, how long you generally play a game before making up non-default characters.

(Of all the games I've played, it is really only white wolf, the game I've played the most where I don't mind hacking the shit out of character generation. Another other game I reckon I'd follow the rules as given)

This is, of course, how WFRP ended up with its reputation - by the rules you are doomed to playing a scrote for the likly lifespan of the campaign, and only people who break the first rules in the book ever get to play something that looks like the common view of warhammer.

I say this is broken and needs fixing, if it wants to call itself warhammer game.

I don't know if the rules work at that level. Do you? (then again, I can't stand percentile systems - even with an 80% jump skill you are still likly to be falling down every fifth bottomless pit, which tends to limit heroics. It just don't pay to be up high with 30%...).

Quote from: Erik BoielleMy experience tells me that character generation is one of the few parts of a ruleset that tend to get used as written.

Ponder, if you will, how long you generally play a game before making up non-default characters.

(Of all the games I've played, it is really only white wolf, the game I've played the most where I don't mind hacking the shit out of character generation. Another other game I reckon I'd follow the rules as given)

This is, of course, how WFRP ended up with its reputation - by the rules you are doomed to playing a scrote for the likly lifespan of the campaign, and only people who break the first rules in the book ever get to play something that looks like the common view of warhammer.

I say this is broken and needs fixing, if it wants to call itself warhammer game.

I don't know if the rules work at that level. Do you? (then again, I can't stand percentile systems - even with an 80% jump skill you are still likly to be falling down every fifth bottomless pit, which tends to limit heroics. It just don't pay to be up high with 30%...).

Dude, you're screaming at a wall. You already stated that you've never played the game. Therefore you have no idea what you're talking about. You're working with false assumptions and a truckload of "I have no idea what I'm talking about but I'll pretend I will". This is like bitching about Champions not being true to the genre because you don't start out being able to play Superman.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJestaYou already stated that you've never played the game.

I have played it. The Oldenhaller Contract is, infact the first adventure I ever played.

And I've played the occasional session, before getting bored and moving on to something else. And it is very similar to a number of other games I do know well, and now really can't stand.

Tell me where I'm wrong bitch.

You could start by explaining how rough night at the three feathers there is not a typical session.

Quote from: Erik BoielleTell me where I'm wrong bitch.

OMG! How'd you find out the pet-name my GF gave me?!?

I've already told you how you're incorrect about the game.

Erik: 0
Grim: 27

It was a close game, but in the end you lose.

-=Grim=-

So you would recomend WFRP to a fan of other Warhammer games and novels and whatnot who wanted more of the same?

(And, conversly would you hesitate to recomend WFRP to someone who told you they didn't like Games Workshop, believing to to be stupid?)

in some alternate universe Erik's playing Rifts and getting all riled up that he can't play some ordinary bloke.

I hope you find an RPG that presses yer buttons.

Y'know, every time i come here and see this thread STILL going strong, I sigh mightily and weep for all the threads that might have been.


Then I come in and read it, still shaking my head with the infinite sadness of of the world weighing on me.  Only to find the hilarity that is the exchanges between Erik and far more doughty souls than I.

Arguing with Erik is akin to insulting the deaf kid on the corner. Sure, its easy and fun for a little while, but productive?  Not really. I mean, every once in a while he'll see your lips moving and guess what you are talking to him, but his responses have about as much to do with the fact that you are talking at all as they do to anything you actually said.  And until we learn whatever passes for sign language for Erik it shall always be thusly.

Still, it IS amusing in its own way.

Quote from: Seanin some alternate universe Erik's playing Rifts and getting all riled up that he can't play some ordinary bloke.

I hope you find an RPG that presses yer buttons.

In this universe, Erik is bitching that Rifts isn't powerful enough. You know, because you can play a city rat and lasers kill you if you aren't wearing armor, and...

I'm tempted to make a sock puppet account over on Big Purple and ask 'what system to do warhammer - you know, like the wargame' and see what people say.

Who genuinely thinks the top answer would be WFRP?

Quote from: SpikeIn this universe, Erik is bitching that Rifts isn't powerful enough. You know, because you can play a city rat and lasers kill you if you aren't wearing armor, and...

Hey, in my youth I messed around with a more 'sensible' version of Rifts where everything had it's MDC divided by ten.

Thank heavens no one listened to me. It woulda sucked.

AND I painted all my Marines in camoflage. Again, in the long run it would have been a horrible, horrible mistake.

Sensible is best left to humourless small boys with no imagination. Older and wiser heads must bitchslap them down, less the world be drained of colour and said small boys never get interested in the first place.

Quote from: Erik BoielleHey, in my youth I messed around with a more 'sensible' version of Rifts where everything had it's MDC divided by ten.

Thank heavens no one listened to me. It woulda sucked.

AND I painted all my Marines in camoflage. Again, in the long run it would have been a horrible, horrible mistake.

Sensible is best left to humourless small boys with no imagination. Older and wiser heads must bitchslap them down, less the world be drained of colour and said small boys never get interested in the first place.

See, posts like this are what I'm talking about. Erik isn't even speaking the same language as the rest of us. He's not even living in the same world. Show me the 'small boy' who has LESS imagination than 'Older Wiser Adults' and I'll show you a small boy that is pretty fuckin' unique!

Me? When I was a small boy I tried to dig a hole to china. Twice. I dreamt of vast underground fortresses I would build when I could. I inserted myself into the comic books I read as my own character.  My buddies would use our GI Joes to tell war stories that made the real cartoons look positively mundane.

Adding 'realism' is something we tend to do as we get older and duller. Apparently, however, Erik is from Orken. Like Mork, he ages backwards.  Until we learn to speak his language, no real communication can happen.

Quote from: SpikeUntil we learn to speak his language, no real communication can happen.

Pictures mate. Pictures are the only language that Erik can relate to.

Quote from: SpikeArguing with Erik is akin to insulting the deaf kid on the corner. Sure, its easy and fun for a little while, but productive?  Not really. I mean, every once in a while he'll see your lips moving and guess what you are talking to him, but his responses have about as much to do with the fact that you are talking at all as they do to anything you actually said.  And until we learn whatever passes for sign language for Erik it shall always be thusly.

Still, it IS amusing in its own way.

Erik is a long-term project. I follow him around the internet with a handkerchief, wiping drool from his mouth and berating him whenever he tries to touch people inappropriately. Occasionally he says something insightful, giving me hope that his condition is improving. But then, in an almost deliberate and calculated fashion he relapses, pounding profane stupidities into his poor keyboard.

It's almost as if Erik fears the responsibility of becoming socially functional. I'm hoping that one day he'll at least be able to articulate his vision of "Real WFRP" with enough clarity that I can hold a meaningful conversation with him.

Quote from: Erik BoielleMy experience tells me that character generation is one of the few parts of a ruleset that tend to get used as written.

Ponder, if you will, how long you generally play a game before making up non-default characters.

(Of all the games I've played, it is really only white wolf, the game I've played the most where I don't mind hacking the shit out of character generation. Another other game I reckon I'd follow the rules as given)

This is, of course, how WFRP ended up with its reputation - by the rules you are doomed to playing a scrote for the likly lifespan of the campaign, and only people who break the first rules in the book ever get to play something that looks like the common view of warhammer.

I say this is broken and needs fixing, if it wants to call itself warhammer game.

I don't know if the rules work at that level. Do you? (then again, I can't stand percentile systems - even with an 80% jump skill you are still likly to be falling down every fifth bottomless pit, which tends to limit heroics. It just don't pay to be up high with 30%...).

This isn't true at all. Even if you start in a career like 'Small but vicious dog herder' that has as it's only advanced options 'Sheep Shammier' and 'Weasel Botherer,' you can also pay some XP to switch to another entry level career easily.

Heck, you don't even have to do that. I started as a Miner, and eventually ended up as a battle hardened veteran sergeant in one of the games I played back in college.

Yeah, the entry point is a bit low, but even the default rules allow for players to control their fate a lot more than people will admit. Not to mention the fact that after two or three careers, if you're still alive, you're going to end up either fairly badass, slinging magic around, or as a rather impressive jack of all trades.

Quote from: SpikeSee, posts like this are what I'm talking about. Erik isn't even speaking the same language as the rest of us. He's not even living in the same world. Show me the 'small boy' who has LESS imagination than 'Older Wiser Adults' and I'll show you a small boy that is pretty fuckin' unique!

Me? When I was a small boy I tried to dig a hole to china. Twice. I dreamt of vast underground fortresses I would build when I could. I inserted myself into the comic books I read as my own character.  My buddies would use our GI Joes to tell war stories that made the real cartoons look positively mundane.

Adding 'realism' is something we tend to do as we get older and duller. Apparently, however, Erik is from Orken. Like Mork, he ages backwards.  Until we learn to speak his language, no real communication can happen.

In my experience the desire for increased realism  in games comes and goes in the teen years. I only had it for a year or so, and then I was right back to fighting lemurian sorcerers in an Atlantean starship trapped beneath the Antartic ice cap.

Quote from: LeSquideI started as a Miner, and eventually ended up as a battle hardened veteran sergeant in one of the games I played back in college.

Is that the guy you have levelled up the most?

One guy, in college. You know you are never gonna do that again, right?

It is also worth nothing that the new edition effectively slows advancement to about half of the first edition. So your guy would have got to about half of a veteran sergent.

Also, did you actually mess with character generation, and start campaigns with advanced characters? Replacements mid campaign don't count.

QuoteIn my experience the desire for increased realism in games comes and goes in the teen years. I only had it for a year or so, and then I was right back to fighting lemurian sorcerers in an Atlantean starship trapped beneath the Antartic ice cap.

I think it is part of the learning experience. You need to try it for yourself in order to figure out what a bad idea it is.

--

Gah! Murdering people in hotels is just so PEDESTRIAN!

Look at this Jehrico game:-

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/22612.html

You have a quirky team of heavy weapon toting magic weilding special forces battling their way back through time to banish Gods first evil attempt at creating humanity. Whatever adventures BI come up with arn't going to be as cool as that!

I mean! Doesn't that sound more interesting than bimbling around mugging people with no real motivation?

And they would totally make an inquisition investigation team.

And this Bionic Commando:-

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26783.html

He swings through blasted cities with his cybernetic arm! He throws around tram cars! That could so be a 40K pc. No reason an arco-flagellant should be any less mobile.

This bloody syphon filter game is worked on by Greg Ruka! (who did Queen and Country, among other things).

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/115330.html

Why on EARTH would you want to play a character who can't do anything by whimper and run away?

Those are ALL Videogames!!

 I thought this was the RPG section?

 There is another sub-forum on here for videogames you realize?


- Ed C.

Quote from: Erik BoielleIs that the guy you have levelled up the most?

One guy, in college. You know you are never gonna do that again, right?

It is also worth nothing that the new edition effectively slows advancement to about half of the first edition. So your guy would have got to about half of a veteran sergent.

Also, did you actually mess with character generation, and start campaigns with advanced characters? Replacements mid campaign don't count.



I think it is part of the learning experience. You need to try it for yourself in order to figure out what a bad idea it is.

--

Gah! Murdering people in hotels is just so PEDESTRIAN!

Look at this Jehrico game:-

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/22612.html

You have a quirky team of heavy weapon toting magic weilding special forces battling their way back through time to banish Gods first evil attempt at creating humanity. Whatever adventures BI come up with arn't going to be as cool as that!

I mean! Doesn't that sound more interesting than bimbling around mugging people with no real motivation?

And they would totally make an inquisition investigation team.

And this Bionic Commando:-

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26783.html

He swings through blasted cities with his cybernetic arm! He throws around tram cars! That could so be a 40K pc. No reason an arco-flagellant should be any less mobile.

This bloody syphon filter game is worked on by Greg Ruka! (who did Queen and Country, among other things).

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/115330.html

Why on EARTH would you want to play a character who can't do anything by whimper and run away?

Nope! It was a weekly game, over one academic year.

We rolled for random starting career and all that; I almost switched careers to something else early, but decided I liked most of the advances, and so I stuck to miner until it was done, then went to the aforementioned Mercenary and then Veteran and Sergeant (can't remember the order)

One of the dwarfs ended up out of fate points by the end of the game, but no one died.

Now, this isn't to say that he wouldn't have been replaced with an equally experienced character if he had died (which he would have), but it didn't come to that.

Some of Black Isle's employees seem to prefer a really low powered, low balled game, but the stuff in the books really doesn't directly equate to that.

Here's my impression of the 'debate' so far:

Erik: WFRP can't handle high powered play like this [posted picture].

Everyone Else: Yes it can. Advanced career characters are a perfect fit.


Erik: But how many people actually play like that? [Posts another picture or clip]

Various Posters (Me included): I did.


Erik: You'll never do that again, it takes too long to level up. [Yet another picture or clip]

Everyone Else: Just start the campaign with highly experienced PC's.


Erik: But no one does that.

Various Poster (Me included): I did, and would again.


Erik: But... but... it's not the rules as written! [Another fucking videogame clip]

Everyone Else: D&D RAW presumews characters starting at 1st level. That doesn't stop people kicking off with an epic campaign if they feel like it.


Erik: The art direction doesn't encourage it! [Pictures, pictures, the same old poxy pictures]

Me: Many of the 2E books have stylised, epically themed covers... including the core.


Erik: ....I was talking about 40K, anyway. [More picture]


*** 20 POSTS LATER ***


Erik: WFRP can't handle high powered play like this [posted picture].

etc.

So why doesn't Erik just play his frikking videogames instead of real around-the-table RPGs?
Sounds like he'd be happier that way.


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarSo why doesn't Erik just play his frikking videogames instead of real around-the-table RPGs?
Sounds like he'd be happier that way.

He desires to remake the world according to his own vision, and steadfastly refuses to accept the reality of the situation whilst pursuing this agenda.

The fact that he's been consistently proved wrong on so many of the points he's made isn't even an obstacle. In psychiatric terminology this is known as denial.

Myself, I deny the fact that an Erik/Warhammer thread has received more views than the Ryan Dancey thread.

And yet it is the case. Must be those clips.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityMyself, I deny the fact that an Erik/Warhammer thread has received more views than the Ryan Dancey thread.

And yet it is the case. Must be those clips.

Extremism via faulty logic always draws the crowd in.

That and the clips.

I loved the first warhammer edition, but I felt slightly cheated by the 2nd edition because I used to love the savage crit charts. The new ones are weak and lame and not at all satisfying. Furthermore crits imo should be spread throughout the entire wound range. If you get clobbered over in the head for 5 points with a two handed sword you should have some discernable injury and the possibility of a stun. The wound buffer sucks and spoils the realism of the game.

Quote from: Cold Blooded GamesI loved the first warhammer edition, but I felt slightly cheated by the 2nd edition because I used to love the savage crit charts. The new ones are weak and lame and not at all satisfying. Furthermore crits imo should be spread throughout the entire wound range. If you get clobbered over in the head for 5 points with a two handed sword you should have some discernable injury and the possibility of a stun. The wound buffer sucks and spoils the realism of the game.

Can`t help you with the buffer thing, but if you are looking for critical hit tables with more oomph, try these:

http://www.windsofchaos.com/?page_id=19

Quote from: RoderickCan`t help you with the buffer thing, but if you are looking for critical hit tables with more oomph, try these:

http://www.windsofchaos.com/?page_id=19

I really like your charts, good effort. The buffer thing can be sorted by taking the 15 criticals and spreading them evenly through the wound range.

Quote from: DrewHere's my impression of the 'debate' so far:

Erik: WFRP can't handle high powered play like this [posted picture].

Everyone Else: Yes it can. Advanced career characters are a perfect fit.


Erik: But how many people actually play like that? [Posts another picture or clip]

Various Posters (Me included): I did.


Erik: You'll never do that again, it takes too long to level up. [Yet another picture or clip]

Everyone Else: Just start the campaign with highly experienced PC's.


Erik: But no one does that.

Various Poster (Me included): I did, and would again.


Erik: But... but... it's not the rules as written! [Another fucking videogame clip]

Everyone Else: D&D RAW presumews characters starting at 1st level. That doesn't stop people kicking off with an epic campaign if they feel like it.


Erik: The art direction doesn't encourage it! [Pictures, pictures, the same old poxy pictures]

Me: Many of the 2E books have stylised, epically themed covers... including the core.


Erik: ....I was talking about 40K, anyway. [More picture]


*** 20 POSTS LATER ***


Erik: WFRP can't handle high powered play like this [posted picture].

etc.

I quote this in some vain and minuscule hope that this ends the thread for its 'truthiness'.

-=Grim=-

So you would recomend WFRP to a fan of other Warhammer games and novels and whatnot who wanted more of the same?

(And, conversly would you hesitate to recomend WFRP to someone who told you they didn't like Games Workshop, believing to to be stupid?)

For the third time, yes. Felix and Gotrek clones are quite possible:

QuoteErik: WFRP can't handle high powered play like this [posted picture].

Everyone Else: Yes it can. Advanced career characters are a perfect fit.

-=Grim=-

Thats so full of shit, and you know it.

Quote from: Erik BoielleThats so full of shit, and you know it.

No, it's not.

I've played in games next to Trollslayers, and the bodies stacked up like cordwood (and they weren't even ours!).

No, Erik ...you're full of shit.

Its like the thread is a hamster on one of those exercise wheels.

Either you like RPGs - or nothing will ever satisfy you because it ain't a frakking videogame clone.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSo you would recomend WFRP to a fan of other Warhammer games and novels and whatnot who wanted more of the same?

(And, conversly would you hesitate to recomend WFRP to someone who told you they didn't like Games Workshop, believing to to be stupid?)

Answer numba wan: yes, yes I would.   And if enough of my players were vocal about wanting to wade through buckets of enemy blood, I might even put them two or three careers in. All about the keeping players excited at my table, yo.

Converse answer: Yes, yes I would.  Caveat: If the person thought Warhammer/GW was 'stupid' because they hate, say, fantasy worlds, or don't think 'grim 'know only war'' worlds are fun or they don't like the cosmology... then probably not.   There are a hell of a lot of reasons to think something is stupid. Obviously, you think it's stupid because your imagination isn't keeping up with your optic nerves or something.



And, just because I realize Erik isn't really reading what I actually wrote, I'll try something that will be probably equally effective. I'll respond to him in a totally made up language. Perhaps some of my random gibberish will magically match the private lingo that resounds in Erik's head.


Fnoalack magogog artori Sony.  Googleplexus marcronius hasaphat. Jumpin jeemer frazzleshit. Motobiosoftubi ea. Bi Doomius zeldacant.

Quote from: KoltarEither you like RPGs - or nothing will ever satisfy you because it ain't a frakking videogame clone.

They arn't mutually exclusive. Obviously, a tabletop RPG won't have the same, er, visceral combat, but you can certainly cover the same things. Mario rescuing that princess woman frex. Maybe you could even roll for jumping on things and whatnot. Although you wouldn't want to roll as often, and it would be better to focus on other things that tabletop games do better.

Certainly if you can have Anime RPGs you can have roleplaying games of video game cutscenes.

--

As for the rest, remind me not to ask you to recomend a plumber.

:-)

Although I must note that even they know what I mean when I say Warhammer - like the wargame, and how it differs from WFRP.

Erik, what's your ideal starting character ?

And what system have you found that suits you best ?

Quote from: SeanErik, what's your ideal starting character ?

And what system have you found that suits you best ?

Achilles!

He can level up from epic hero to demi-god!

No, but really, someone who is a playa. Whereever the action is, someone who can get in on that. So, er, if vampires are scheming to take over a city, someone who is scheming rather than someone who wonders around aimlessly watching NPCs talk. Or if there is a campaign to be waged, someone deciding when to commit the guard or storm the walls, not someone who is Just Folloving Ordas!

Someone who gets to play with the cool toys, not just watch them work!

Someone who gets respect!

Sam Fisher or Solid Snake or this guy:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lMsrqS2LDE

if theres a mission to be done. I love having the team collect my guy from where he is washing his clothing in a river to bring him back because they need his skills. Hell, I love the putting the band back together scene, where you recruit a team of specialists from a variety of whacky locations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzOHq5WbQ8k

I like Heroquest.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI like Heroquest.

Is that Heroquest or HeroQuest?

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaIs that Heroquest or HeroQuest?

!i!

Herowars heroquest.

--

Yknow - solid snake at the start of the first game may be first level, but he is a first level Badass Commando, not, like, someones bitch.

Quote from: Erik BoielleAchilles!

He can level up from epic hero to demi-god!

.

 You should just go buy Exalted and call it a day.

http://www.white-wolf.com/exalted/index.php?line=intro

.

Quote from: JaegerYou should just go buy Exalted and call it a day.

Exalted can be awfully strait-jacketing, though, and characters tend to go over the top instead of levelling up.  Honestly, Eric is onto something -- HeroQuest can handle the apotheosis of Achilles pretty darned well.

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaExalted can be awfully strait-jacketing, though, and characters tend to go over the top instead of levelling up.  Honestly, Eric is onto something -- HeroQuest can handle the apotheosis of Achilles pretty darned well.

!i!

Maybe it can, but all he's really "on to" is the urge to play mega-powerful characters in a setting that doesn't support them as the default. The big draw of the Old World for RPG'ers has always been mud, blood and shit, with the occasional epic hero wandering around performing legendary deeds. The game is more than capable of handling that without having all the other interesting stuff hacked off so that it might appeal to the battle game demographic.

Now if Erik were arguing for a WFRP epic level handbook equivalent I'd be more sympathetic, but he's not. He's making huge (and faulty) generalisations about the game's history and appeal that serve no other purpose than to bolster his flimsy arguments about what the great mass of Warhammer players actually want. He's denying the play experiences of pretty much everyone who's posted to this thread. He's consistently failed to address any of the rebuttals that have been offered, and has yet to explain in any detail beyond pictures and clips exactly how his version of the game would work. It's like debating the semantics of dialect with Marcel Marceau.

Quote from: Erik BoielleAchilles!

He can level up from epic hero to demi-god!

No, but really, someone who is a playa....

Let me guess - you're caucasian?


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarLet me guess - you're caucasian?

Hell, I'm British!

Quotebattle game demographic

which anyone who isn't blind, retarded or in denial knows has piss all to do with maid marion and her merry men.

I dunno. I think back over twenty years of following all things wahammer, in meatspace or online, i'd never have even considered it wasn't all about the griffons and blanche art.

GAH! It's not even that you arn't Archeon or Valten here:-

http://www.games-workshop.de/warhammer/erweiterungen/sdc/bilder/sdc2004-wallpaper-1024.jpg

You actually have to work long and hard to make it to the level of the faceless peons in the background!

So, in closing:-

(http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/artwork/images/art01.jpg)

You see this guy? What are you - blind, retarded or in denial.


(http://uk.games-workshop.com/bretonnia/artwork/images/art10.jpg)

(http://uk.games-workshop.com/skaven/artwork/images/7.jpg)

(http://uk.games-workshop.com/tombkings/artwork/images/art04.jpg)

(http://uk.games-workshop.com/ogrekingdoms/artwork/images/08.jpg)

(http://uk.games-workshop.com/vampirecounts/artwork/images/art13.jpg)

(http://uk.games-workshop.com/woodelves/artwork/images/1.jpg)

I dunno - I just don't see anything on their website that suggests it isn't supposed to be a fairly typical fantasy setting dripping with magic and heros.

Quote from: Erik Boielle(http://uk.games-workshop.com/hordesofchaos/artwork/images/art01.jpg)

You see this guy? What are you - blind, retarded or in denial.

Honestly, I'm having trouble seeing this guy.  The art is so busy, poorly composed, and lacking substantive depth that I'd have about as easy a time seeing this guy in a Pollack or Steadman painting.

!i!

Quote from: Erik BoielleI dunno - I just don't see anything on their website that suggests it isn't supposed to be a fairly typical fantasy setting dripping with magic and heros.

That's because GW doesn't support any Role Playing Games through its website. All of the images you've posted depict large-scale battles involving hundreds, or thousands, of troops led by powerful generals. If you can find a way to make a successful roleplaying game with mass battles as its main focus, then you should pitch the idea to GW. Powerful heroes in Warhammer don't travel in dungeoncrawling adventure parties with other epic-level heroes. They're too busy leading hordes of troops in huge battles.

Don't expect them to listen though, because it's a concept that nobody else has managed to capitalize on thus far in the history of RPGs. GW isn't keen to lose money on longshots, as far as I can tell.

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaHonestly, I'm having trouble seeing this guy.  The art is so busy, poorly composed, and lacking substantive depth that I'd have about as easy a time seeing this guy in a Pollack or Steadman painting.

You don't have to like it - you just have to know that it is what games workshop sells.

I love it. The big muscles, the stupid poses waving inflatable warhammers in the air - it is the coolest thing in the world. If I didn't love it I wouldn't like GW as much, because, yknow, it is what they do.

(I am reminded of a comment on the Black Libraries board about how no one ever seemed to complain about the writing quality of black library novels, so they must be pretty good. Er, no...)

It is like Loaded or Maxim - it ain't big and it ain't clever, but it is wonderful to read while taking a dump.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeIf you can find a way to make a successful roleplaying game with mass battles as its main focus, then you should pitch the idea to GW.

Not actually very difficult, I say. Er, take a look at a book like Antony Beevors Stalingrad or Berlin. They are more or less told as high level narratives. So, er, to take an example, Montgomery knows there are panzer divisions in the way of the allied invasion, so he keeps launching attacks at Caen to draw in more enemy tanks and eventually allow his american allies to break through elsewhere (or he gets his ass handed to him and makes the plan up later, depending), all the while having to convince people that he knows what he is doing so he doesn't get replaced.

Or have you played Republic of Rome?

Anyway, the only real difference is that you say 'I dispatch scouts to reconoiter the village' instead of I listen at the door' or, 'I charge with my heavy cavalry' instead of 'I hit him'.

If you have read The Sabbat Worlds Crusade, a room in a dungeon becomes a new planet invaded by the crusade. You listen at the door (deploy sensor sats), kick in the door (perform an assault landing with drop pods) and slay the orks (order your armies to slay the orks RTS style).

Dave Nilsens Lone Wolf is a decent example:-

http://www.geocities.com/pentapod2300/mag/lonewolf.htm

Possibly too weird for GW, but doable.

QuotePowerful heroes in Warhammer don't travel in dungeoncrawling adventure parties with other epic-level heroes.

Actually, I don't think there is any reason to think they don't.

QuoteGW isn't keen to lose money on longshots, as far as I can tell.

Yeah, but that means making World of Warhammer, not WFRP. WFRP was an odd concept.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYou don't have to like it - you just have to know that it is what games workshop sells.

I was always kind of embarrassed by the ineptitude of this kind of art, even when I was hardcore into WH40K.  Admittedly it packed lots of emotion and enthusiasm into the gaps where technique was missing, all of which appealed to GW's targetted demographic -- boys in their late teens to early 20s.  I grew up and got off that bus, and I suspect that the design and development crew at GW were onto a similar notion.  The wargame was selling to a younger crowd, and a roleplaying game would sell to an older crowd.  Enough similar elements would appeal to both demographics.

In short, they decided to market the RPG, a line that couldn't rely on lightning fast sales of expensive minis and almost equally fast turn-over of consumers, to a steadier consumer base.

!i!

QuoteI was always kind of embarrassed by the ineptitude of this kind of art, even when I was hardcore into WH40K.

Still hooked you like a fish, bitch...

:-)

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThe wargame was selling to a younger crowd, and a roleplaying game would sell to an older crowd.  

And... that's a wrap.

Goodnight folks, and drive safe.

Quote from: Erik BoielleStill hooked you like a fish bitch...

:-)

...which would make you a "fish bitch" as well...

QuoteAnd... that's a wrap.

And yet the big roleplaying games are DnD, Vampire, Exalted, Rifts...

The idea that roleplayers don't like what GW sells is simply not evident in their buying habits.

Quote from: Koltar...which would make you a fish bitch as well...

Well, er, yes.

So, I think tactics that worked on me, him and everyone else would seem a good strategy neh?

I dunno. It is just that you can claim till you are blue in the face that no one really likes what Games Workshop does, but if this is true, how the hell did they get so big?

Quote from: Erik BoielleAnd yet the big roleplaying games are DnD, Vampire, Exalted, Rifts...

WRONG!!!!
 ...on at least TWO of those.
(DO you even look at the Market Beat sticky that I and Warthur update each month???)

Dungeons & Dragons is VERY BIG - its the top seller.
They also have better artwork and thats in believable scale and porportion to their fictional characters.

Vampire? If you mean World of Darkness, then yes that does sell pretty well...but not as much as it used to.

Exalted? NOT a "Top Seller" - its up and down the chart. Not ever really a big selling item. Hasn't been for quite awhile. (It also has better artwork than Warhammer)

Rifts??
You gotta be kidding.
Last year it only got to the # 2 spot because of that online pleading from Kevin S. - biggest traceable artificial bump up the charts that I've seen in 4 years.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Erik BoielleHell, I'm British!

I would like to take this opportunity to apologise on behalf oof my fellow countryman, and to assure you all that efforts are underway to have Erik deported. Anyone who can claim to be British and still not get the glorious and very British humour of WFRP isn't really one of us.

Never read 2000ad huh?

I'm curious. If Erik's arguments are starting to make sense to me is that a testament to his arguments and clear-headed points, his stubborness, a slow festering insanity, or the fact I'm really, really tired? Someone please answer.

Quote from: Erik BoielleNever read 2000ad huh?

Yes I have. What's your point?

Quote from: TrevelyanYes I have. What's your point?

We don't only make the Full Monty or romantic comedies with Hugh Grant.

Nothing more british than a Commando comic:-

(http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/3262/commandocoverqs3.gif)

Balls of British Steel mate.

(http://www.ali-hassan.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/Commando0015.jpg)

(http://www.ali-hassan.net/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/Commando0016.jpg)

Smug superiority and rampant xenophobia - BRITISH!

Quote from: SaskwachI'm curious. If Erik's arguments are starting to make sense to me is that a testament to his arguments and clear-headed points, his stubborness, a slow festering insanity, or the fact I'm really, really tired? Someone please answer.

Erik's arguments make no sense.

His basic objection is that WFRP let's you play gritty, mud-and-blood games, while the average Warhammer fan wants epic action with big swords and silly armour.

What he fails to understand, in spite of the fact that several posters have spelled it out using simple words that even Erik should be able to understand, is that WFRP accomodates both styles of play with the simple proviso that a player wanting immediate gonzo action needs to create an experienced character.

Erik has yet to offer a counter argument beyond simply saying that he doesn't like to create experienced characters and/or doesn't believe that anyone else does either.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWe don't only make the Full Monty or romantic comedies with Hugh Grant.

Nothing more british than a Commando comic:-

Balls of British Steel mate.

Erik, you've just failed basic debating. My point that "Anyone who can claim to be British and still not get the glorious and very British humour of WFRP isn't really one of us" is in no way refuted by your example of other forms of British entertainment. Saying "X is an example of British humour" is not the same as saying "X, and only X is an example of British humour".

My argument was more along the lines of the classic "True Scotsman", whereby "no true British man fails to find the humour in WFRP entertaining". Sugesting that a "True British man" might find other things entertaining is entirely beside the point and only goes to show how little attention you are paying to people who are trying to address your concerns.

And for the record, neither The Fully Monty nor Hugh Grant are examples of the humour found in WFRP - again utterly pointless examples to bring up in your rebuttal. :rolleyes:

:eek:
That was my belated attempt at irony Trevelyan. I'm with you on everything. Sorry.

Quote from: TrevelyanAnd for the record, neither The Fully Monty nor Hugh Grant are examples of the humour found in WFRP - again utterly pointless examples to bring up in your rebuttal. :rolleyes:

Oh I don't know. The Full Monty has unemployed steel workers making the best of it in world beyond their control, while Hugh Grant does useless bumbling tit rather well.

(http://www.bookpalace.com/PicLibs/Commando/images/Commando0054.jpg)

(http://www.bookpalace.com/PicLibs/Commando/images/Commando0019.jpg)

(http://www.bookpalace.com/PicLibs/Commando/images/Commando0040.jpg)

Erik,

 You're getting boring.

 Either play the new WARHAMMER game when its released or don't. Linking to countless images of British military men from book and magaziine covers doesn't prove anything. (Except that you maybe have a man-crush on men in either armor or uniform.  ......)


- Ed C.

Piss off then- I, for one, find Erik quite entertaining. Furthermore, I presonally don't think that most poeple like to create experianced characters- a belief I will hold onto until someone provides me with some hard data that shows the opposite to be true.

Quote from: KoltarErik,

 You're getting boring.

 Either play the new WARHAMMER game when its released or don't. Linking to countless images of British military men from book and magaziine covers doesn't prove anything. (Except that you maybe have a man-crush on men in either armor or uniform.  ......)


- Ed C.

And that you have way too much time and dedication to searching for pictures of said men in armour/uniform.

Quote from: KoltarLinking to countless images of British military men from book and magaziine covers doesn't prove anything.

Its a comic. Certainly a strong ancestor of Warhammer.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6599139.stm

Quote(Except that you maybe have a man-crush on men in either armor or uniform.  ......)

It is no more, or less, homoerotic than westerns or wrestling.

Which is to say yes, very very gay indeed.

I present to you in picture form the reason that your style of warhammer would turn me away from the RPG (and did from the battle game):
(http://www.fantasyshop.gr/gallery/wh-chaos-knights-thumb.jpg)
My best friend got a hand on these little puppies and made them Chosen Khorne Knights with an Exalted Champion. Unless I pulled some serious Sun Tzu fu on this unit (5:1 against) I would lose every time.
The ultraviolence of these Knights intruding on a game whose strategy and level of thought you don't credit enough completely ruined the game for me.

Quote from: Erik BoielleAnyway, the only real difference is that you say 'I dispatch scouts to reconoiter the village' instead of I listen at the door' or, 'I charge with my heavy cavalry' instead of 'I hit him'.

I'm not disputing that an epic sourcebook for WFRP would be awesome. But mass battles as the default playstyle in a tabletop RPG has never been done before Reign (and who knows how successful that will be). What makes you think GW can suddenly make this fringe concept a hit like traditional WFRP has been?

Quote from: Erik BoielleYeah, but that means making World of Warhammer, not WFRP. WFRP was an odd concept.

I get the impression that you won't be happy until traditional WFRP is killed forever, so you can laugh in the faces of its fans, in retribution for all the failed WFRP games you've had scuttled after two sessions.

Quote from: Saskwach:eek:
That was my belated attempt at irony Trevelyan. I'm with you on everything. Sorry.

Ah. I missed that. :deflated:

Quote from: Erik BoilleOh I don't know. The Full Monty has unemployed steel workers making the best of it in world beyond their control, while Hugh Grant does useless bumbling tit rather well.

Once again I fear you've somewhat missed the point.

Quote from: AoSFurthermore, I presonally don't think that most poeple like to create experianced characters- a belief I will hold onto until someone provides me with some hard data that shows the opposite to be true.

No one ever made such a claim. All people have suggested is that it is easy to create an advanced character in WFRP if you want to play a gonzo level game, and that several posters here have done just that. The extent to which this practice is adopted by the world at large is irrelevant.

The ravenous, yawning chasm of Erik's miscomprehension is starting to suck in other posters. How long before this thread reaches some sort of critical mass and sucks the whole of the forum down with it?

QuoteWhat makes you think GW can suddenly make this fringe concept a hit like traditional WFRP has been?

Well, (disputing the meaning of hit), what I think they SHOULD do is just do D20 warhammer stuff complete with dungeon crawls and shopping lists of magic items. What I think would be more interesting is Epic Warhammer or Metal Warhammer. So, if it was feeding my kids I'd do the former, while as a hobby I'm pondering the latter.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfein retribution for all the failed WFRP games you've had scuttled after two sessions.

That and having to put up with fucking Didz for years.

If only that wanker hadn't slagged off the griffon...

Actually, it is more becuase of all the wasted time spent not doing anything in roleplaying games because my character wasn't up to doing the kinds of stories I like. Lying in the back of a car going 'I've fucking been fucking shot, man' and bleeding everywhere is fun once. After that, I'd just rather be getting on with the adventure. Which means acting like someone in a commando comic.

So yes, I do have a strong desire to piss on these games then set them on fire. So much wasted time!

I think they are a terrible mistake, and a triumph of wishful thinking over practicality.

Argh! All those years listening to NPCs and running away from anything interesting!

Quote from: Erik BoielleSo, I think tactics that worked on me, him and everyone else would seem a good strategy neh?

It had me going for a couple of years, until I started approaching my mid-20s.  Even then, it was only the minis that grabbed my attention, not the (largely) inept drawings and paintings.

So, turning the argument around, how is it that GW lost me as a customer?

!i!

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaSo, turning the argument around, how is it that GW lost me as a customer?

They only need to care if it would be easier to sell to you than people who like their stuff.

Do you think it would be?

Quote from: TrevelyanErik has yet to offer a counter argument beyond simply saying that he doesn't like to create experienced characters and/or doesn't believe that anyone else does either.

And yet he's declared his admiration for HeroQuest, which does just such a thing.  Probably the significant difference between liking one and not the other is that HeroQuest wasn't titled Warhammer.

!i!

Quote from: AosPiss off then- I, for one, find Erik quite entertaining. Furthermore, I presonally don't think that most poeple like to create experianced characters- a belief I will hold onto until someone provides me with some hard data that shows the opposite to be true.

All evidence on this topic is anecdotal. The last time I played a D&D campaign starting at 1st level was maybe 10 years ago, and almost everyone I know does the same (3rd-5th being the norm). Your experiences are likely different, but there's no way we're going to convince one another of our respective opinions in the absence of the hard data you requested.

And this is where Erik's argument fundamentally fails. He's claiming universal truths of WFRP gaming without even the personal experience necessary to back it up. He neither knows or understands the system and it's appeal, and thinks that the same juvenalia that draws kids into the battle game will work it's magic on the RPG. My contention would be that it's the cool figures and the chance to compete against one's mates that actually does that, all wrapped up in the tribal conformity that GW emforces over tournament play.

Quote from: DrewAll evidence on this topic is anecdotal. The last time I played a D&D campaign starting at 1st level was maybe 10 years ago, and almost everyone I know does the same (3rd-5th being the norm). Your experiences are likely different, but there's no way we're going to convince one another of our respective opinions in the absence of the hard data you requested.

Exactly.
Erik may be completely off his nut- but his detractors have no more evidence than he does to support their arguments.

Quote from: AosExactly.
Erik may be completely off his nut- but his detractors have no more evidence than he does to support their arguments.

Erik has claimed that no one wants to play WFRP in the way I and many others on this thread have. He's even asserted that the game is incapable of supporting such play.

I don't see anyone else doing that.

Quote from: DrewErik has claimed that no one wants to play WFRP in the way I and many others on this thread have. He's even asserted that the game is incapable of supporting such play.

I don't see anyone else doing that.

So they would have to be the same unfounded assertions as Erik's in order to be goofy? Other unfounded assertions (and there are plenty of them in this 250+ post debacle, I certain if you look you can find many) are okay?

Quote from: AosSo they would have to be the same unfounded assertions as Erik's in order to be goofy? Other unfounded assertions (and there are plenty of them in this 250+ post debacle, I certain if you look you can find many) are okay?

If you want to point out others unfounded assertions in this thread then by all means do so. I'm not going to do it for you. My point is that Erik is talking out of his arse.

Quote from: DrewIf you want to point out others unfounded assertions in this thread then by all means do so..

I thought about it, but we're over 250 posts; I  have the flu and really don't care to look through them all.
Victory is yours.

Admit it, you're all bustin' to play in one of Erik's games !

Quote from: AosI thought about it, but we're over 250 posts; I  have the flu and really don't care to look through them all.
Victory is yours.

I have no interest whatsoever in claiming victory over you. I thought we were just shooting the shit.

Get well soon.

Quote from: SeanAdmit it, you're all bustin' to play in one of Erik's games !

Everyone is. They just don't know it yet. :D

Quote from: SeanAdmit it, you're all bustin' to play in one of Erik's games !

Not really no. I have an Xbox for that. When I got dice, I'd rather be tossing dice down, not learning how to plug my TV up Erik's Ass to get good reception for the images in his head... which pretty much look like re-runs anyway.

Quote from: DrewI have no interest whatsoever in claiming victory over you. I thought we were just shooting the shit.

Get well soon.

Thanks.:)

I think it'd be more appropriate if all of Erik's posts were typed in fan-boy l33t speak. It's the vibe I get anyway.

Erik: OMFGOMFG! I WAN TEH GUNZ AND THE MAGIX! I KEEL EVERYTHANG LOLZ CRUSH!!!1! THIS GAEM SUXXXXXXX!!!37!!1! SEE!?!!1! I AR LIEK KONAN!!! MUSSELS AND BLUDD!

The Forums: <Insert logical retort>

Erik: LOZ YOOR THE BITCH!!1! WEAR AR TEH BUKKETZ OF BLUD?/?? KARACTERZ SHULD BE GAWDZ AND ABAL TOO KILZ EVARYTHIGN!!!!!!!!!!!! RARGH! LIKE MANOWAR! GRRRRRRR MACES AND SORDZ!!!!!!!!!!!

The Forums: <Insert patient, yet baffled retort>

Erik: I WAN TOO PLAY LIEK THISS! REEL MEN!! CRUSH KIL DESTROI!!!

The Forums: <Insert exasperated posts>

Seriously. But like a bloody car wreck, I can't seem to turn away from this thread. It's almost like everything I ever saw wrong with gamers summed up into one poster, like the Voltron of bad gaming. Awesome.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: ErikOMFGOMFG! I WAN TEH GUNZ AND THE MAGIX! I KEEL EVERYTHANG LOLZ CRUSH!!!1! THIS GAEM SUXXXXXXX!!!37!!1! SEE!?!!1! I AR LIEK KONAN!!! MUSSELS AND BLUDD! LOZ YOOR THE BITCH!!1! WEAR AR TEH BUKKETZ OF BLUD?/?? KARACTERZ SHULD BE GAWDZ AND ABAL TOO KILZ EVARYTHIGN!!!!!!!!!!!! RARGH! LIKE MANOWAR! GRRRRRRR MACES AND SORDZ!!!!!!!!!!! I WAN TOO PLAY LIEK THISS! REEL MEN!! CRUSH KIL DESTROI!!!

Precisely!

Quote from: Erik BoiellePrecisely!

  Sir, I salute you.

  After seeing this nonsense go 27+ pages I am in awe of your trolling abilities.

 Your technique is sublime: Abrasive, yet not quite offensive. You manage to be off-putting without actually being insulting.

And you keep them coming back for more!

 Pretenders take note: This is how it's done.


.

Quote from: GrimJesta. . . like the Voltron of bad gaming. Awesome.

-=Grim=-

while your entire post was killer, this was the icing on the cake.  

indeed, this thread is like a circus and a trainwreck combined into one, and therefore i am helpless to turn away from it. :raise:  :what:  :confused:  :keke:

Quote from: beeberwhile your entire post was killer, this was the icing on the cake.  

*bows deeply*

-=Grim=-

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeI'm not disputing that an epic sourcebook for WFRP would be awesome. But mass battles as the default playstyle in a tabletop RPG has never been done before Reign (and who knows how successful that will be). What makes you think GW can suddenly make this fringe concept a hit like traditional WFRP has been?

Actually, even in REIGN mass battles aren't the "default playstyle". They're something you can do if your organisations' Might stat is high, and you're playing rulers of nations as opposed to (say) gangland bosses. Even then, though, combats aren't played through in a wargamey way - the outcome of battles, and all other actions on the organisational level, are dealt with on an abstracted level through (most of the time) a single roll of the dice.

The clever bit is that the dice pools rolled on an organisational level tend to be lower than the pools that players roll on an individual level, and so if the players really want to ensure their organisation is successful they need to spend some uptime carrying out clever plans in order to get bonus dice on their roll - for example, assassinating the enemy leaders before the day of the battle, or leading a diplomatic mission to convince an important ally to send troops. This is strikingly different from the playstyle in Warhammer Fantasy Battle, where Heroes are essentially major resources on the battlefield and the game tracks the exploits of every unit. I don't know how you could translate that to an RPG without things becoming unmanageable, and without the PCs themselves being entirely eclipsed; pretty much every attempt I've seen to include a mass battle system in an RPG, from REIGN, to RC D&D to Pendragon, has involved some level of abstraction.

(As far as REIGN's success goes: I dunno about sales of the core rulebook, but as you might be aware Stolze has been releasing supplements on the Ransom model - he sets up a fund on a website and invites fans of the game to contribute donations to it, and if the fund hits $1000 by the deadline the supplement is released, if it doesn't the supplement is cancelled (and nobody who contributed pays any money - you only pay when the ransom is accepted). Once the supplement is released, it's free for everyone to download forever. He's managed to raise the ransom for 4 supplements like this so far, in the 4 months since the game was released, so he's been earning $1000 a month of pure profit just on REIGN supplements since the game was published. By the standards of small press self-publishers, that's pretty damn awesome, but it wouldn't be able to support a big publisher like Black Industries.)

Quote from: WarthurActually, even in REIGN mass battles aren't the "default playstyle". They're something you can do if your organisations' Might stat is high, and you're playing rulers of nations as opposed to (say) gangland bosses.

OK, I haven't bought nor read Reign yet; I was just going on the reviews I've seen and secondhand info from friends who own it. It's great that Greg's managed to make some money on it, though.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeOK, I haven't bought nor read Reign yet; I was just going on the reviews I've seen and secondhand info from friends who own it. It's great that Greg's managed to make some money on it, though.

Glad I could make this thread useful for someone. :)

One thing I like is the idea of 'colour' armies and whatnot from Burning Empires.

Er, the way I think it is supposed to work is you can make up any old shit ('I survey my armies - I watch the panzers of falkenburgs legion deploying on the right, while the grand battery of a thousand solar cannons pound the enemy positions!') but the other side is free to just make up any other old shit in response ('Yeah? Well I have ten thousand biomech commandos from Trall, and a hundred thousand slave-thanes of Norsonium III!'), and if you want a mechanical advantage you have to pass a skill check to do something. So a battle is a straight test of command skills, unless someone has made a roll on diplomacy to make sure the lowland clans of crab-warriors actually turn up for the battle, giving them a +1.

Now, obviously it is burning whatever, and hence for all I know that could actually be a badly explained recipy for asparagus soup, but that kinda codifies the way I like things.

QuoteEr, the way I think it is supposed to work is you can make up any old shit ('I survey my armies - I watch the panzers of falkenburgs legion deploying on the right, while the grand battery of a thousand solar cannons pound the enemy positions!') but the other side is free to just make up any other old shit in response ('Yeah? Well I have ten thousand biomech commandos from Trall, and a hundred thousand slave-thanes of Norsonium III!'),

Sounds like Kindergarten all over! [we had "rubber-wall" that would deflect everything, but it was even beaten by the dreaded "wall-against-everything" that would stop even bounced attacks! Alas, after the invention of anti-matter, those wars quickly petered out. Is there something of an equivalent in US-Kindergartens?]

Maybe BE CAN actually be cool if you Gonzo-fie it to the max.

Turn it´s Kindergarten logic up to eleven, and revel in the carnage.

Thanks for the idea, Erik.

Erik, I as a fan of WFRP I tip my hat to you.

This is the greatest troll on rpgsite right now, and long may it continue.

http://www.blackindustries.com/?template=40k&content=interview-mm

QuoteHave you any particularly juicy, fitting and humorous play test anecdotes you’d like to share?

There was this one time when I was playing a tech-priest who was driving the rest of the group across a desert on a flatbed truck. Unbeknownst to me, whilst the others are all sitting on the back on the truck a shale crow appears and starts freaking everyone else out, so much so, that one of the players decides to take a shot at the crow. Unfortunately they don’t hit the bird, but do somehow manage to hit the truck and the shot ricochets through the driver’s cabin, narrowly missing me! I fail my drive test and the whole vehicle goes out of control and crashes. Leaving us beaten-up and stranded in the middle of the desert. We hadn’t actually started the adventure at this stage!

Have you a favourite Dark Heresy PC and can you tell us about him or her?

It would be my hapless tech-priest, named Enoch Nixios, who can’t seem to make anything work, be it flatbed trucks, guns or pretty much any machine or technology you may care to name. Although, he’s very good at turning his vox-synthesier up to maximum volume in the middle of a fight, making everyone (including the other acolytes) drop to the floor with their hands to their ears. Needless to say, the rest of the group is still trying to work out why our Inquisitor hired him!

A fucking useless WFRP character? Colour me surprised!

QuoteAlthough, he’s very good at turning his vox-synthesier up to maximum volume in the middle of a fight, making everyone (including the other acolytes) drop to the floor with their hands to their ears.

Would it be rude to suggest that this is probably because the mechanic for this involves the priest not making a skill roll, and the targets instead making a resistance roll, so two thirds of them are going to fail?

Percentile systems suck donkey dick.

Seriously, does it count as trolling when I end up raging incoherently about the foolishness of it all?

QuoteNeedless to say, the rest of the group is still trying to work out why our Inquisitor hired him!

Or indeed why we are bothering to follow such a mongoose.

Quote from: Erik BoielleA fucking useless WFRP character? Colour me surprised!

Would it be rude to suggest that this is probably because the mechanic for this involves the priest not making a skill roll, and the targets instead making a resistance roll, so two thirds of them are going to fail?

Would it be rude to suggest that a better question to ask would be when guns and pickup trucks got added to a FANTASY game?  Now I know that you haven't played WFRP 2nd edition of the game, but as you claim to know everything about it anyway I figured I'd ask you when those items became fantasy staples.

Quote from: cnath.rmWould it be rude to suggest that a better question to ask would be when guns and pickup trucks got added to a FANTASY game?

Well, Rogue Trader came out in 1987, so then.

But I don't think it is unfair to describe what we have seen of Dark Heresy as WFRP in space, complete with useless wanker characters and remarkably low success chances (frex, from the Shattered Hope demo:-

Quote

QuoteNow, you. You’re a sorry bunch, aren’t you? Who’re you supposed to be? Not the Inquisitor I’ll warrant. Well? Speak up? I won’t have a commotion in my camp.” At this point let the players answer in whatever way this wish. Raynard has a good idea who they are, and is secretly worried
that they are all the help he’s going to get. He listens, stony, and waits for them to finish. Let the players talk as long as they wish. Once they stop, trail off, or look confused, stare at them a bit longer, a few seconds, and then say, “Right. So, the Inquisitor isn’t coming.”

Then, by the given rules (1/2 str -10), Mir, by far the toughest of the PCs, has a mighty 13% chance of impressing the Sergent enough that he even stops and talks to them.

This is shortly after the Inquisitor has expressed a lack of confidence in their abilities and shortly before the quatermaster refuses to give them anything more than some rope and a few grenades.
 
Then the commisar more or less brushes them off and everyone 'dies' falling in to a pit.

)

(I mean, seriously, that sergent guy is more or less the first person the PCs talk to! Talk about starting with a bang!)

The above tech priest no doubt suffers from that although 30% isn't to bad as a hit chance in combat because if you miss you can have another shot next turn, while a non-combat skill use will USUALLY only get one go at it, so the low chances matter more.

This is made even worse as the PCs are supposed to be employed by the inquisition instead of freelance bums, which makes one wonder why they arn't shot or replaced for incompetence, and that powerful weapons for blowing up tanks are handed out in large numbers to common soldiers.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: Erik BoielleThe above tech priest no doubt suffers from that although 30% isn't to bad as a hit chance in combat because if you miss you can have another shot next turn, while a non-combat skill use will USUALLY only get one go at it, so the low chances matter more.

That's also why you are supposed to use difficulty modifiers.  Is this task easy + 20% etc....  But you should know that of course, seeing as how you profess to know all.

Quote from: SettembriniSounds like Kindergarten all over! [we had "rubber-wall" that would deflect everything, but it was even beaten by the dreaded "wall-against-everything" that would stop even bounced attacks! Alas, after the invention of anti-matter, those wars quickly petered out. Is there something of an equivalent in US-Kindergartens?]

Maybe BE CAN actually be cool if you Gonzo-fie it to the max.

Turn it´s Kindergarten logic up to eleven, and revel in the carnage.

Thanks for the idea, Erik.

Yeah, that doesn't suck in principle.  In practice, too much can overload the setting.  So I'd use that technique sparringly.

BTW, a week or so ago my daughter came home from kindergarten with knowlege of badguy-stopping forcefields.  My robot claws could not reach her.

Quote from: kryystThat's also why you are supposed to use difficulty modifiers.  Is this task easy + 20% etc....

Well, my experience tells me that most rolls are made straight - specifically, the GM will say 'give me a strength roll' and will then interpret the results based on how well you roll.

Now, technically there is little difference between roll under or roll plus adds or a dice pool or whatever, but I find that 'I failed by 20' sound worse than 'I got two successes' or 'my total is 10', even if all those results are statistically identical.

I think it is the 'I failed' thing. Black and white - pass or fail, while only getting 10 or a couple of successes is a bit softer.

--

Like you are having a chase across some rooftops - people are leaping between buildings.

I find it much easier to interpret 'I only got 1 success' as 'you stumble on landing and your target pulls ahead'.

While 'I have a jump skill of 50% - I rolled a 70' just SOUNDS more like 'You fail your jump and plummet to your death'.

I dunno. Who jumps between buildings when you have a 50/50 chance of failing? Its a soft thing, but really, really important, I reckon.

--

I think it might be GM psychology - even if you arn't going to get what you want unless you roll well, your guy is less likly to end up looking like a tool if the GM is thinking 'you don't get quite enough' rather than 'you fail'

Hey, heres another - more warhammer in it cheesy voice over than the entire range of WFRP products:-

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/27412.html

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell, my experience tells me that most rolls are made straight - specifically, the GM will say 'give me a strength roll' and will then interpret the results based on how well you roll.

Now, technically there is little difference between roll under or roll plus adds or a dice pool or whatever, but I find that 'I failed by 20' sound worse than 'I got two successes' or 'my total is 10', even if all those results are statistically identical.

I think it is the 'I failed' thing. Black and white - pass or fail, while only getting 10 or a couple of successes is a bit softer.



I think it might be GM psychology - even if you arn't going to get what you want unless you roll well, your guy is less likly to end up looking like a tool if the GM is thinking 'you don't get quite enough' rather than 'you fail'

It's like you've never read or played the game before.  Shocking

WFRP does use a roll under system, no denying that.  It does however use degrees of success based on how well you make your roll.  But you are talking 'feelings' here so obviously facts are of no importance for you.  But if you want to talk about feelings then personally failing by 1% doesn't seem as grave as rolling no success on 5 dice in a pool system.

QuoteLike you are having a chase across some rooftops - people are leaping between buildings.

I find it much easier to interpret 'I only got 1 success' as 'you stumble on landing and your target pulls ahead'.

While 'I have a jump skill of 50% - I rolled a 70' just SOUNDS more like 'You fail your jump and plummet to your death'.

I dunno. Who jumps between buildings when you have a 50/50 chance of failing? Its a soft thing, but really, really important, I reckon.

Your examples are continually as ridiculous as your arguments.   In this case you are comparing 1 success - which is still 1 success vs no success at all.  Why not at least keep your examples the same.

I have a jump skill of 50% I rolled a 49% I made it, but just barely.  Had I rolled a 40, I would have made it by 10% and kept running in stride..... I know, I know, simple logic I'm not playing fair anymore.  

Heroes, Heroes jump between building when they only have a 50/50 chance of success, because failure means the bad guy gets away.

Quote from: kryystIn this case you are comparing 1 success - which is still 1 success vs no success at all.  Why not at least keep your examples the same.

Thats just it though - given a dice pool of 5 and a 50/50 chance of each dice being a success the chances of getting no successes is about 3% - equivalent to rolling 98+ on a d100. You are always likly to get some kind of success even if it isn't enough to get entirely what you want. Add in a fortune point reroll and VERY RARELY INDEED would you have to deal with getting no success at all.

% systems are the fucking devil, and instant death to any kind of heroic action.

Quote from: Erik BoielleNow, technically there is little difference between roll under or roll plus adds or a dice pool or whatever, but I find that 'I failed by 20' sound worse than 'I got two successes' or 'my total is 10', even if all those results are statistically identical.

I think it is the 'I failed' thing. Black and white - pass or fail, while only getting 10 or a couple of successes is a bit softer.

I strongly disagree with you about failure being inappropriate to Warhammer. To the contrary, Warhammer has always revelled in spectacular failures (one of my London TV producer colleagues observed that it's a fundamental British trait to embrace disaster with a sense of pride e.g. the Charge of the Light Brigade and Gallipoli).

The v1 rulebook divided failures into appropriately-named categories (e.g. "Serious Failure" and "Catastrophic Failure"). WFB's Misfire tables are one of its distinguishing features and Wizards who fumble while spellcasting can explode. The General who whiffs horribly and is run down by a lone cannon crewman is the stuff of Warhammer legend. That's what people talk about in the pub afterwards -- not how badass their guys are and how many mooks they killed. One of Warhammer's great strengths has always been that failing is almost as much fun as succeeding, and sometimes moreso.

Now, I agree with you that the skill percentages are a bit too low in v2, compared to v1. This was done (presumably) to create more room for character advancement at the higher end of the scale, but at low levels it tends to produce excessive slapstick comedy unless you mitigate failures with modifiers and DoF. This has the potential for being more of a problem in 40K than in WFRP, purely due to the wider range of PC power levels. However, I see nothing wrong with the Dark Heresy actual play description you posted. It sounds like the player is having a total blast driving the plot forward with his character's spectacular failures.

Also, just FYI, Degrees of Failure aren't part of the v2 core rules, aside from being a tie-breaker for opposed tests. Degrees of Failure were added in expansions like the Old World Armoury (Surgery & Command) and WFRP Companion (Charm, Gossip, Intimidate). Also see unofficial supplements like Liber Fanatica III.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfe(one of my London TV producer colleagues observed that it's a fundamental British trait to embrace disaster with a sense of pride e.g. the Charge of the Light Brigade and Gallipoli).

I think this is just a result of having talking change - it is easy to be magnanimous in defeat when you Know you are better than everyone else.

Then after the second world war the nation hit a real crisis of faith and got really goddam dreary.

Now, fuck it man, we just like to win like everyone else.

Seriously man, it just isn't really a part of the culture any more. You like it, do it yourself.

I assure you, had we the ability we would be out there rubbing peoples noses in the superiority of all things British and crowing about it endlessly. That we can't is a source of constant irritation.

QuoteOne of Warhammer's great strengths has always been that failing is almost as much fun as succeeding, and sometimes moreso.

I disagree. That is just something you need to be able to endure if you are going to do this long term. Most people can't and hence GW would do best if everyone could win all the time. That this is tricky with wargames and easy with computer games is just part of their problem.

Look, I mean there is a reason that every new army wins its battle report in White Dwarf. They sell a dream. No little kid buys his space marines dreaming of how stupid they are. Well not many. I mean, theres always one right, but that isn't your market.

--

A maxed out human in WFRP has an agl of what, 70? 80? Even after YEARS of real time campaigning he is still falling off rooves 20% of the time, while in an unlimited dice pool system the chances of getting 0 successes is vanishingly small.

The black industries forum on stormtroopers:

QuoteSeriously, it's just a name for a guardsman of a rank that most people will never, ever reach. Don't sweat it.

So fucking stupid. So fucking stupid.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI disagree. That is just something you need to be able to endure if you are going to do this long term. Most people can't and hence GW would do best if everyone could win all the time.

The day GW gives in to this philosophy is the day they'll have lost sight of Warhammer. There's a reason why win/loss record is only one of several criteria in the official tournaments. GW games are meant to be story generators, not powergaming wish-fulfillment fantasies.

Quote from: Erik BoielleLook, I mean there is a reason that every new army wins its battle report in White Dwarf. They sell a dream. No little kid buys his space marines dreaming of how stupid they are. Well not many. I mean, theres always one right, but that isn't your market.

No, you go into every game hoping and expecting to succeed. Actively trying and wanting to fail just cheapens it, and it's not what I'm proposing. But when failure does happen, a good system will make it entertaining.

QuoteGW games are meant to be story generators, not powergaming wish-fulfillment fantasies.

Those arn't mutually exclusive - generators of stories of powergaming wish fulfillment.

I mean, doesn't that describe popular culture?

--

I've read that all things being equal, maximum fun is obtained with 3:1 win/loss ratio. More wins and it starts getting too easy. More losses and it starts getting too hard. Obviously, that ratio is impossible to achieve for everyone in an adversarial zero sum game, but it isn't impossible for an RPG.

But really I'm all about minimising consequences to encourage interesting play. With such high chances of failure you don't get lots of spectacular cockups - instead people just don't DO anything, because doing anything is stupid and will get you killed.

Seriously - those recordings of cthulhu games on yog-soth are a classic example - they can't rely on their skills so they never do anything challenging.

Is the useless tech priest going to try disarming a truck bomb with his skills?

But if he had unlimited fate points he might. He may have to go back to the inquisitor with his clothes singed and his hair burning slightly and a terribly expensive hive collapsing behind him, but that is way more interesting than running from the bomb beacause theres no way in hell you are risking a 70% chance of death.

Quote from: Erik BoielleThose arn't mutually exclusive - generators of stories of powergaming wish fulfillment.

Yeah, but those types of stories are dull and boring.

Quote from: Erik BoielleBut really I'm all about minimising consequences to encourage interesting play. With such high chances of failure you don't get lots of spectacular cockups - instead people just don't DO anything, because doing anything is stupid and will get you killed.

My experience differs. Fate Points encourage players to try risky things despite the chances of failure. Plus, character creation is fast and fun, so if your character dies it's not a big deal. You roll up a new guy, which lets you try one of the other careers that you never would've had a chance to play if you were single-mindedly focused on the character-building project of levelling up your Tech Priest.

The long term character-building approach may work in MMO's, but it's antithetical to face-to-face roleplaying because it encourages navel-gazing and selfish play (although Burning Wheel seems to have made a good attempt to fix this).

There's my rant. However, keep in mind that I'm a fan of the games, not the logo, and I could care less about the shareholders. If GW is forced to downsize in order to preserve the true spirit of Warhammer, that would be preferable to seeing them pander to the lowest common denominator.

QuoteFate Points encourage players to try risky things despite the chances of failure.

Nah, they are to rare. They'd need to refresh a lot faster to have much effect.

QuotePlus, character creation is fast and fun, so if your character dies it's not a big deal.

So you either get a parade of useless retards called Frank 7 because the player has no investment in them or (more common IME) a bunch of dull ass wallflowers who never do anything because it is the only way to survive.

Quotewhich lets you try one of the other careers that you never would've had a chance to play

Like anyone who isn't a useless retard or dull ass wallflower? Maybe like the characters from warhammer novels you like, or game characters, or whatever?

Quotetrue spirit of Warhammer

What, ultraviolent brit-fascism like in Judge Dredd?

Blanchian monkeys covered in skulls?

Quote from: Erik BoielleSo you either get a parade of useless retards called Frank 7 because the player has no investment in them or a bunch of dull ass wallflowers who never do anything because it is the only way to survive.

Experience has taught me that being invested in a game character will not make him any more interesting. Being invested in the game story is what really matters.

Quote from: Erik BoielleLike anyone who isn't a useless retard or dull ass wallflower? Maybe like the characters from warhammer novels you like, or game characters, or whatever?

I see we've once again reached a point in the thread where you mistakenly equate "gritty, high-risk" gameplay with useless zero-fantasy Pig Farmers, and completely mischaracterize the genre novels.

Put the keyboard down Erik. It's time for your bath.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeExperience has taught me that being invested in a game character will not make him any more interesting. Being invested in the game story is what really matters.

Thats probably because your guys either don't survive long enough or are to passive to be interesting.

Seriously man, I've read your adventures. You should try playing with characters who have more options than be dragged around by NPCs or die.

Quote from: Erik BoielleSeriously man, I've read your adventures. You should try playing with characters who have more options than be dragged around by NPCs or die.

Which adventures? I don't believe I've ever posted any online?

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeWhich adventures? I don't believe I've ever posted any online?

Wasn't empire at war one of yours? (and in the grand tradition of warhammer fandom, allow me to be the first to say I liked the original more :-) )

But seriously, have you played many games where PCs get to boss people about and whatnot - its a lot of fun.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWasn't empire at war one of yours?

No. There is zero chance you've seen any of my adventures unless you're a BI playtester.

Quote from: Erik BoielleBut seriously, have you played many games where PCs get to boss people about and whatnot - its a lot of fun.

Totally. In our Barony of the Damned game, Intimidate was easily the most frequently rolled skill. The players made the NPCs their bitches almost every session. Of course, it still ended in a TPK, but that's Warhammer.

QuoteNo.

Ah.

Quote from: Herr Arnulfebut that's Warhammer.

It really isn't, you know. Unless they were all muscle men who died fighting on top of a enormous pile of bodies while playing a face melting solo on a fender stratobolter, pulled down by all the demons of hell and angels of heaven working togeather.

Which I doubt.

Quote from: Erik BoielleIt really isn't, you know. Unless they were all muscle men who died fighting on top of a enormous pile of bodies while playing a face melting solo on a fender stratobolter, pulled down by all the demons of hell and angels of heaven working togeather.

Which I doubt.

Actually,


SPOILER...


...they were dogpiled and devoured by several hundred Ghouls after throwing burning oil on the Cannibal Knight during a supposedly honourable duel with the party's leader, Sir Robert. Sir Robert was badass, but the Cannibal Knight was even more badass. The Bretonnian chose to duel the Cannibal Knight because his player was (awesomely) roleplaying in-character, and decided that accepting the villain's horrific proposals would be even worse than death for Sir Robert.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeSir Robert was badass.

Yeah? What were his stats?

Quote from: Erik BoielleYeah? What were his stats?

I don't remember exactly, but he was a Questing Knight who carved through the local gang members no problem. If you own the KotG book, you can probably guess. Unfortunately for him, the Cannibal Knight had, like, 5 attacks with his 2-handed sword.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeI don't remember exactly, but he was a Questing Knight who carved through the local gang members no problem. If you own the KotG book, you can probably guess. Unfortunately for him, the Cannibal Knight had, like, 5 attacks with his 2-handed sword.

So you changed character generation, didn't make it through one adventure and there wasn't a satisfying fight at the end? I mean, hell, if even you don't use the character generation system then what good is it?

Smore like a long one shot though right? And things are a bit different in one shots as the pressure is on to be interesting now with little or no thought of the future. Theres less problem with people falling off rooves if there is no intention of them being a lasting fixture.

If the system is only going to work for one-shots it will require radically different character generation (broadly, make shit up) doesn't need advancement rules, may as well have rules for epic heros and work on ways to get in the stuff that people apparantly love like magic items.

And % systems still suck. You just won't notice how unlikly it is for a character to survive long enough to get to his level if you pick him up as a pregen.

Quotethe Cannibal Knight had, like, 5 attacks with his 2-handed sword

Wait! I have graphics for this!

(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul_gylyan.boielle/npcs.jpg)

(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul_gylyan.boielle/coolguy.jpg)

Actually, the Shattered Hope demo is a classic example of both:-

(http://www.blackindustries.com/images/40k-scenario-images/shattered-hopes-big.jpg)

Good luck rolling up the dude in power armour with the storm bolter and force sword!

Quote from: Erik BoielleSo you changed character generation, didn't make it through one adventure and there wasn't a satisfying fight at the end? I mean, hell, if even you don't use the character generation system then what good is it?

We did use the character creation system, but everyone started the campaign with 1,500 XP. I rarely start any RPG at 1st level. It was a mini-campaign (lasted a year on-and-off), and only my 3rd TPK ever, so it wasn't a typical game.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeWe did use the character creation system, but everyone started the campaign with 1,500 XP. I rarely start any RPG at 1st level. It was a mini-campaign (lasted a year on-and-off), and only my 3rd TPK ever, so it wasn't a typical game.

Ahh, but Erik knows more about the game and what it's about then you do, and if the pc's weren't as insanely badass as the chars in the novels and failed at anything then there was never any point to your game and besides, you were playing it wrong as he knows despite never having actally played the 2nd edition of the game.:D

Its just that the standard of badass is so low!

A guy who can almost two thirds of the time avoid breaking his neck while jumping between rooves just isn't all that when on the console you can carve your way though unending hordes of elite troops:-

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/12225.html

Look - heres another example:-

Assassins Creed:-

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26570.html

By video game standards thats fairly low key. Dude can fight four guys at once, jump pretty well and whatnot.

Now, how would you stat him for warhammer? Remember that you want your adventure to go something like that demo walkthrough.

You'd think after 300 posts people would realize that nobody will be chaning Erik's mind, and he won't be changing anyone else's. Considering he apparently has never even played the game, I'm curious about why so many people are interested in his opinion.

Simply put, Warhammer is a kickass game for people who can get enjoyment even when they're not playing a superhero, novelized badass, or video game wannabe. If that's not your style, grab a D&D book or two and go to town. If it is, rock on with your bone picker turned pit fighter who aspires to one day be considered a true Champion.

Quote from: Erik BoielleNow, how would you stat him for warhammer? Remember that you want your adventure to go something like that demo walkthrough.

Wouldn't I just play the video game if I wanted my adventure to play out like the video game?

Quote from: James McMurrayWouldn't I just play the video game if I wanted my adventure to play out like the video game?

In Erikworld everyone secretly wants tabletop games to simulate video games. It's the great secret, the elephant in the drawing room, the boil on the end of your boss's nose.

Never mind that TTRPG's are far slower and don't have much in the way of graphics. Erik has it on excellent authority (ie. the little voice in his head that also tells him to set fire to stuff) that this is so. He even has clips to prove it. Failing that he'll just post more artwork every now and then.

You may want to get your imagination it's 10 year checkup. Mine has awesome graphics. :)

Quote from: James McMurrayYou may want to get your imagination it's 10 year checkup. Mine has awesome graphics. :)

:rolleyes:

Quote from: James McMurrayYou'd think after 300 posts people would realize that nobody will be chaning Erik's mind, and he won't be changing anyone else's. Considering he apparently has never even played the game, I'm curious about why so many people are interested in his opinion.

We're just passing time. It's like camping out by the enemy's spawn point in a videogame. You know it's wrong, and it's not particularly challenging or exciting, but it's sort of fun anyway.

Quote from: James McMurrayYou'd think after 300 posts people would realize that nobody will be chaning Erik's mind, and he won't be changing anyone else's.

Actually, Erik has.  Prior to this thread, I was more or less indifferent to WHFRP.  The other day I saw a copy of the new edition on the shelf at a local store.  Previously, I wouldn't have given it a second look, but, you know, I pulled it down and gave it a leaf-through.  I'm seriously thinking of picking up a copy because it looks like just the kind of game I'd like to play.

Thanks, Erik! :keke:

!i!

That's the same reason I picked up Exalted, except it wasn't Erik bagging on it that made me curious. :)

Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThanks, Erik! :keke:!i!

No problem. Like I say if you don't like anything Games Workshop does there is a good chance you'll enjoy it.

It is just a mystery why they publish it.

Thank you Erik...
For creating one of the greatest spectator sports on the internet. Performed to the tune of "I Get Knocked Down". Or whatever it's called.

Quote from: SaskwachPerformed to the tune of "I Get Knocked Down".

Do you know what is really scary - judging by past precident (traveller ... Discussions... frex), I'm still gonna be going on about this in fifteen years!

Am I the only one compelled to tell Erik that in his beloved precious video games, the boss monsters are almost always, universally far better than the character you play? You know, more hitpoints, more devestating attacks, bigger, cooler, etc.

Sure, its a cheat for having pathetic AI's compared to player 'skills', but its been true of videogames for as long as I can remember.

Oh, and chaos dudes: I don't think they are cool and I don't want to play them. Nothing like getting metaphorically fucked up the ass for all eternity by some thing that calls itself a god.  Wanna talk about being someone's 'Bitch'? Next you'll be saying in the perfect Warhammer game WE"D be playing Khorne, and not his bloodthirsters.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfePut the keyboard down Erik. It's time for your bath.

It's March already? :p

Quote from: SpikeAm I the only one compelled to tell Erik that in his beloved precious video games, the boss monsters are almost always, universally far better than the character you play? You know, more hitpoints, more devestating attacks, bigger, cooler, etc.

Yeah, but the player gets lots of goes at it and only remembers the best one. If you just directly port the mechanics to the tabletop then, presumably, you are going to die as often as you do in the game.

(Er, I am reminded of someone commenting that the planes in second world war flight sims are too easy to fly, and someone else retorting that if once, just once in the game you have cocked up a take off or landing in a corsair they you would have been eliminated by the Ensign Eliminator).

So producing a story that Looks like a video game plot, on the first run through, while still providing fun fights and interesting twists is actually rather challenging.

(Ponder if you will an accurate simulation of gears of war but without saving - you create characters for an hour, and three second in to the first gunfight you hit A to dive out of the way, your guy instead decides to stick himself to a wall and some locust kills him with his rifle butt. Another hour of character generation later you are ready to play - and three seconds in a Theron Guard hits you with a torque bow and your guy blows up. Repeat until you can get through the whole game without dying once.

This is not ACTUALLY what I mean by when I talk about video game plots.)

I'd also note that in this thread we can see grognard complaining about the stupid stuff in DnD:-

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8114

Yes, in DnD. The only difference is that warhammer, for some fucked up reason, tried to listen.

Raise your hand if you think DnD would do better if it listened to these guys.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYeah, but the player gets lots of goes at it and only remembers the best one. If you just directly port the mechanics to the tabletop then, presumably, you are going to die as often as you do in the game.

(Er, I am reminded of someone commenting that the planes in second world war flight sims are too easy to fly, and someone else retorting that if once, just once in the game you have cocked up a take off or landing in a corsair they you would have been eliminated by the Ensign Eliminator).

So producing a story that Looks like a video game plot, on the first run through, while still providing fun fights and interesting twists is actually rather challenging.

(Ponder if you will an accurate simulation of gears of war but without saving - you create characters for an hour, and three second in to the first gunfight you hit A to dive out of the way, your guy instead decides to stick himself to a wall and some locust kills him with his rifle butt. Another hour of character generation later you are ready to play - and three seconds in a Theron Guard hits you with a torque bow and your guy blows up. Repeat until you can get through the whole game without dying once.

This is not ACTUALLY what I mean by when I talk about video game plots.)

Then make up your god damn mind and stop bitching already. Fuck a duck, man. Either you want it to play more like a video game or you want it to play more like a god damn table top game. Pick one and stick the fuck with it.

Christ, I WISH you were five. I'd get more coherent conversations out of you.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI'd also note that in this thread we can see grognard complaining about the stupid stuff in DnD:-

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8114

Yes, in DnD. The only difference is that warhammer, for some fucked up reason, tried to listen.

Raise your hand if you think DnD would do better if it listened to these guys.

I think D&D will be the same regardless of what's on the cover.

Quote from: SpikeThen make up your god damn mind and stop bitching already. Fuck a duck, man. Either you want it to play more like a video game or you want it to play more like a god damn table top game.

I wish to do the kind of things one does in video games, with the kinds of characters one finds in video games on the tabletop.

The way characters act in video games only makes sense in light of the fact that they can have another go. This is similar to the way that characters in books and movies get away with things because it is a story.

Without this safty net, people have to act differently.

Consider this:-

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/123379.html

(And please ignore the player - dude either never played a shooter before or he likes the axes reversed)

Now, if one was to run this with a simulation of the computer games mechanics on the tabletop, plugging in convenient values to model average player skill, a rather hefty fraction of the time Nathan Drake is gonna end up shot and his girlfriend raped to death by south american pirates.

Hence, players will not get to make snappy one liners or enjoy light hearted adventure in exotic locales.

Instead, it would probably get a reputation as a grim and gritty game, where people are constantly being butt reamed in colombian jails.

Quote from: James McMurrayI think D&D will be the same regardless of what's on the cover.

I was thinking more of listening when it is said they should have a moratorium on use of the word 'cool', and an implication they shouldn't be doing nerdy self-empowerment.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI'd also note that in this thread we can see grognard complaining about the stupid stuff in DnD:-

http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8114

Yes, in DnD. The only difference is that warhammer, for some fucked up reason, tried to listen.

Raise your hand if you think DnD would do better if it listened to these guys.

I read the first few pages of that thread and I noticed the point where "nerdy self-empowerment" was raised. If you read it closely his beef was with the cover art only appealing to that kind of nerd and not appealing to a larger market, as 4e is apparently trying to do. So the point of that thread was "cover art does not equal stated aim of new edition. Also, it's lame and doesn't even at least give us a picture of some good action."
That thread therefore has nothing to do this thread except that you equate artwork with content.
I'm curious. Is this a massive troll or are you really this silly? Not that I don't enjoy it immensely either way.

Quote from: SaskwachIf you read it closely his beef was with the cover art only appealing to that kind of nerd.

Oh, I think hes crazy if he doesn't think that wish fulfilment ISN'T the wider market. Have you seen what passes for mass advertising these days? Happy, beautiful people in control. If it isn't a good strategy, theres a lot of money to be made out there...

Quote from: Erik BoielleOMG I WAN TO HAV TEH LAZAR GUNZ PEWPEWPEW DETH TO MAH ENEMEEZ I KEEL JOO WIF MAH AXE-GUN-SWORD-ROCKET!!!1! TABALTOP GAEMS SHULD BEE LIKE VIDEO GAMEZ!!1!!!11! RARGH!

In other words, to sum up the 30-something page 'argument' you're trying to make, in Warhammer the PCs shouldn't ever lose. They should immediately start out on a pile of d100x1d4 dead bodies, be "The Awesome", never, ever miss with their weapons, have a 100% chance (unmodifiable) to dodge anything, and have an extra 5d6x1,000 lb. muscle mass (added mostly to the neck and arms?

In other words - retarded?

Christ, it's like the short yellow bus of gaming.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJestaIn other words, to sum up the 30-something page 'argument' you're trying to make, in Warhammer the PCs shouldn't ever lose. They should immediately start out on a pile of d100x1d4 dead bodies, be "The Awesome", never, ever miss with their weapons, have a 100% chance (unmodifiable) to dodge anything, and have an extra 5d6x1,000 lb. muscle mass (added mostly to the neck and arms?

More or less. Its sole purpose should be to make 14 year old boys (or men who wish they were) love it. All other considerations, such as 'is it art?', 'does this teach the kids valuable life skills?' and 'is this actually even a game?' are largely secondary considerations.

Hell, the wargames are just an excuse to buy lots of little men, and maybe line them up and pretend at war.

And it'd be awesome. Pure focus on making the punter feel like a badass.

(Like I say, I believe Fun is maximised with a 3-1 win loss ratio, so there might be some room for failure, about, say, 1/4 of the time, but it is only there to maximise the fun, and not something to get hung up on.)

It's a performance, an art, an illusion. And it'd be so cool - page after page of big burly men with glistening muscles... :faints:

Quote from: Erik BoielleMore or less.

*falls off chair laughing*

We're not worthy

Quote from: Erik Boielle...page after page of big burly men with glistening muscles... :faints:

Now everything is made clear.

Quote from: Erik Boielle...it'd be awesome. Pure focus on making the punter feel like a badass....

You keep wondering why GW made the executive decision to make the roleplaying game different from the wargame, but you've been answering yourself.  It's because the wargame already covered all of those bases.  Hell, the wargame is already a pseudo-roleplaying game, what with the personality models and all.  Making the roleplaying game just like it would be redundant.

Quote...page after page of big burly men with glistening muscles... :faints:

Hee-hee.  This is pretty funny.  Why didn't you just come out and express it like this from the start?

!i!

Quote from: Erik BoielleThats just it though - given a dice pool of 5 and a 50/50 chance of each dice being a success the chances of getting no successes is about 3% - equivalent to rolling 98+ on a d100. You are always likly to get some kind of success even if it isn't enough to get entirely what you want. Add in a fortune point reroll and VERY RARELY INDEED would you have to deal with getting no success at all.

% systems are the fucking devil, and instant death to any kind of heroic action.

What kind of mechanics are you playing?  Most dice pool systems are based on about an 80% chance of failure, per die.   You are just making statistics and apparently game references up as you go along.  Your arguments aren't based on anything other then your own delusions.

Quote from: kryystWhat kind of mechanics are you playing?  Most dice pool systems are based on about an 80% chance of failure, per die.

I was thinking of Burning Empires, which is D6s:- 1,2,3 = fail 4,5,6 = pass

But it works with nWoD (which is, er, D10s 8+ isn't it?) as well (although less so) - on five dice the chances of getting no successes is 17% or 84+ on a d100. I'm more familiar with oWoD which was a bit more forgiving.

(Dice + adds is better as well - you may roll a two and only get 14, but you still got '14' not 'I failed my roll')

(incidentally, my first love in GW was Titans, and this is the coolest thing evar:-

(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a116/mageboltrat/Epic%20Nurgle/bigtitan.jpg)

does anyone know what those legs are from?)