Quote from: Erik BoielleHmmm. Well, to an extent I mean 'like other popular roleplaying games'.

Er, from the top

DnD - okay, you start low but swiftly gain HP and whatnot so you are definate Heros. Not part of the masses.

Warhammer - that's the point of fate points.  That's what sets PC's asside from the masses hell they can live through things that no one else can.  By the time they gain aprox 1000 experience and hit their second career they are  several steps above what the masses are in terms of capabilities and potential.   By the time they hit their 3rd or 4th careers they are near God like by comparison more then capable of taking on almost anything thrown at them.  That's also just assuming a normal mundane equipment progression.  You throw a couple rune items or misc magic items they way and they can become Epic heroes.

QuoteWhite Wolf - Vampires, werewolves, Exalted obviously. Maybe low down the pecking order of, but certainly

Palladium - A starting rifts party might be a Juicer, Glitter Boy, Dragon and Cyber Knight.

How do this even approach as a comparison?  Entirely different perspectives of game play.  On the other end of the spectrum I could bitch that Warhammer characters are over powering compared to a standard CoC character.  

QuoteAnd, er, if Warhammer ever had a USP it was being More. I mean, they invented the whole heroic stature miniatures thing. Where other people had nice, clean fantasy, Games Workshop was chaos spiky bits of gothic death and whatnot.

So is the RPG if you want it to be.  The interior art is all about gothic spikey death.

QuoteBut, even though the rules don't really cover it, there is still a kind off assumption that mighty DnD high levelers are running around - you just arn't them (By WFRP rules, a complete Master Wizard, representing, so I am told, seventy sessions of play is still a gimp compared to the mythical battle wizards,

Again your record skips and repeats.  But I'm bored so what the hell.  The battle wizards are epic wizards, in Warhammer.  Your right that a PC will likely never attain that level.  But again in DnD standards PC's aren't going to be approaching the canon DnD legends like Elminster, Bigbee, Drizzit etc... They are legendary characters that don't conform to the standard DnD rules either.  But a Warhammer Master wizard is extremely powerful and capable of dealing out death on massive scales.  

QuoteSo I dunno. In a D20 game you could easily have a standard party of a wardancer, bright wizard, giant slayer and imperial Champion running dungeons filled with demons and whatnot.

You can easily do the same in Warhammer.  They won't be starting characters, in the same fashion what your describing aren't starting characters in D20.  It's almost like you've never read or played the game before and are just making things up.

Quote from: kryystWarhammer - that's the point of fate points.  That's what sets PC's asside from the masses hell they can live through things that no one else can.  By the time they gain aprox 1000 experience and hit their second career they are  several steps above what the masses are in terms of capabilities and potential.   By the time they hit their 3rd or 4th careers they are near God like by comparison more then capable of taking on almost anything thrown at them.

Hmmm. See, what I'm thinking is that the units in a game of warhammer might be represented in WFRP by, say, fifty Knights in full plate on warhorses led by a Captain.

In a game of DnD they might be fifty level 1 fighters (being elites - most of the baggage being commoners with spears).

Hell, if a lord wanted something done, he could easily send out ten knights of the inner circle led by a champion. Riding a griffon. He'll have these dudes sitting around.

It's largely just an assumption that the PCs use the same advancement rules as NPCs. So, er, assuming  characters, it might take ten sessions in WFRP to get to the lowest levels of elite soldiery, while in a DnD game you might start there and at the end of the first session start to move ahead in to capital H Hero terratory.

I think you forget just how much 'trash' you can slaughter in, especially, computer RPGs, but also just other tabletop games. And just what 'trash' can consist of.

Quote from: Erik BoielleHmmm. See, what I'm thinking is that the units in a game of warhammer might be represented in WFRP by, say, fifty Knights in full plate on warhorses led by a Captain.

Think of what your saying here?  50 knights in full plate armour in Warhammer is a serious threat they absorb on averate 8 points of damage on every hit.  That means that most common threats have a 50% chance of doing no damage at all, that's assuming they even hit in the first place.  They'll pretty much walk through most things you'd throw at them of mundane origins and put up a hell of a fight against things not of mundane origins.  

The more you speak, the more you prove you don't understand Warhammer at all.

QuoteIt's largely just an assumption that the PCs use the same advancement rules as NPCs. So, er, assuming  characters, it might take ten sessions in WFRP to get to the lowest levels of elite soldiery, while in a DnD game you might start there and at the end of the first session start to move ahead in to capital H Hero terratory.  

So, let me get this straight.  So your suggesting that in DnD a 1st level fighter  and after 1 session is now in Hero territory.  That's one hell of a first session.

What I mean is that a unit of eight models on the table might 'really' be a unit of fifty dudes or something. And there are gonna be load of these guys wondering about the place. A big battle might involve tens of thousands of guys.

Er, assuming Archeon doesn't, like, lead a horde of ten chaos knights or whatnot.

I dunno. It is just a really different dynamic. And one that is remarkably unusual in fantasy. In a battle where the greatest champion really only has 10%ws and an attack over THOUSANDS of knights, it isn't really bold individual actions that make a difference.

Er, this compares and contrasts to something like Dynasty Warriors, where guy can rack up, like five hundred kills in a single battle and really its just a fight between names NPCs surrounded by faceless hordes.

I dunno. Aside from being cool, single dudes packing in the combat power of like fifty of the Emperors finest knights makes it a lot easier to explain WHY they keep getting sent on epic quests to save the world.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWhat I mean is that a unit of eight models on the table might 'really' be a unit of fifty dudes or something. And there are gonna be load of these guys wondering about the place. A big battle might involve tens of thousands of guys.....said a bunch of other things

So your original point that the WFRP didn't have as much badassittude as it's source material from video games, the table top game, other games like Gears of War that have nothing to do with Warhammer in the first place, but you blathered on about them anyway.

WFRP does, rather easily handle the level of badassittude that you are using as a reference to your argument.  It does it in spades if you want to.  The rules are there, they are easily supported and can be done in different ways depending on how you want to model it.  

You can't bring up a single point to the contrary yet you still hold onto this rant of yours, you silly, silly troll.

Sorry, I'm not sure you are bright enough to understand what I'm getting at.

Ah well, I'm sure I'll rant on this again in a week or so.

Quote from: Erik BoiellePfffft. Thats like reading No Mutants Allowed to do a fallout game.

And reading this thread is NOTHING like that.
you apparently want Unreal Tournamecraft: Gears of Black Sabbath at the gaming table...

and I'm saying it will never happen.

Quote from: kregmosieryou apparently want Unreal Tournamecraft: Gears of Black Sabbath at the gaming table...

and I'm saying it will never happen.

You may be right, but Holy Hell would that not be AWESOME!!!!!!











Do you mind if I steal the title?

:-)

Only there should be, like Dynasty Warrior or some other crowd combat game in there.

I mean, common, the Space Marine fans would go apeshit!

Eh? Eh? Am I wrong?

Lars is young and charismatic, but unsure how to guide his people. Eddie knows that Lars has the look and the power to be a rock star, and sets out to make him one - the genesis of the roadshow they'll put together to take down the demons. Their first stop is the Crushing Pit, where many of the young men of the village have been abducted in order to mine for ancient car parts. Without tools, they're left to endlessly bang their heads against the wall, building up grossly dispropotionate neck muscles. Lars wonders aloud what can be done with a bunch of listless kids who only know how to bang their long haired heads up and down all day. 'Start a revolution,' Eddie solmnly intones in response.

And looklook:- Heres another one - Bionic Commando

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26558.html?type=flv

And I remember when I used to wear out tapes of Aliens watching the bit with the drop ship over and over again. Kids today! They don't know their born!

Sure, but I can pull a better one from the old brainpan if if you want a good one.

You know what?  I think, in the course of this entire discussion, i finally completely understand exactly what you're saying!  

You're saying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1aGetl7cX0


Is that correct?  Cause I think i'm right there with you. :haw:

SO, to recap, BI fucked up by not somehow distilling the visceral 'coolness' that is/was the minis game for their rpg...right?

I can certainly agree.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYou may be right, but Holy Hell would that not be AWESOME!!!!!!

Do you mind if I steal the title?

Quote from: kregmosierYou're saying: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1aGetl7cX0

Precisely!

There can't be a gamer on the planet who doesn't know how this works:-

The scene is the inside of a dropship fill with troopers strapped to the side.
Detonations rock the craft, and occasionally a shower of sparks sprays across the nervous soldiers.

The rear of the 'ship is in shadow.

An officer is shouting in to a headset:-

'I want first and third squads in blocking positions! Those bastards are gonna come swarming out the back when the hammer drops, and I want a kill zone to take them as they run!'

In the shadows at the back a lighter flares and the coal of a cigar glows brightly.

'Third platoon will provide suppression fire to cover the assault - and watch out for those turrets!'

Through the window we see several other dropships hit by flack and spiral in to the ground, smashing through huge, alien towers as they do so.

'Stranski!'

The man at the rear leans forward. We can see he is an enormous mass of muscle and scar tissue.

'You are going in the front door!'

Closeup:- Stranskis' huge chistled jaw from the side. He smiles.

...

Quote from: Erik BoiellePrecisely!

There can't be a gamer on the planet who doesn't know how this works:-

The scene is the inside of a dropship fill with troopers strapped to the side.
Detonations rock the craft, and occasionally a shower of sparks sprays across the nervous soldiers.
*snip for length*
The man at the rear leans forward. We can see he is an enormous mass of muscle and scar tissue.

'You are going in the front door!'

Closeup:- Stranskis' huge chistled jaw from the side. He smiles.

...

And you can't do that with any number of existing games for what reason?

Shit, man, I could do that with GURPS, which is held up as a paragon of realistic lethality by some. I could do with... Hmm... lessee... Fading Suns, Traveller, CORPS, D20 Modern with the Future expansion (yuck), Alternity (less Yuck, but still), Runequest with a couple of pages of houserules, the WoD with a few less houserules (Bonus prize:WoD weapons are incredibly non-lethal, which means Stranski can take dozen of hits before dropping), I'll bet money I could do it with the BI Dark Heresy you are bitching so much about.*

hell, I could run it with about anything at all. that's the Fucking GM"S FUCKING JOB!

Not the game itself. The GM. All you gave was some cool flavor text and lead up to the actual 'stuff'.  Big whomp. Sounds like you need to give your GM a caffeen drip and STFU, that's about it. If you are the GM just slap yourself until you feed those lines to your players instead of whining to the rest of us that your games aren't totally metal awesome hamburger hill style.


*AFMBE, Shadowrun (any edition), Champions through a SF hero filter.... the list is mother fucking endless....

yeah, see...i think he's saying he wants it implicitly defined, like in the rules.  I can only assume he means something like HōL...or he's just being contrary.

cause yeah...pretty much any rpg system in the universe can emulate pretty much anything else.  system matters, but not if you take what you want from one and tack it onto another with, like, gorilla glue.  and setting is seriously so much fluff that (again) just tack that set-dressing on and rock out.

Quote from: SpikeAnd you can't do that with any number of existing games for what reason?

Shit, man, I could do that with GURPS, which is held up as a paragon of realistic lethality by some. I could do with... Hmm... lessee... Fading Suns, Traveller, CORPS, D20 Modern with the Future expansion (yuck), Alternity (less Yuck, but still), Runequest with a couple of pages of houserules, the WoD with a few less houserules (Bonus prize:WoD weapons are incredibly non-lethal, which means Stranski can take dozen of hits before dropping), I'll bet money I could do it with the BI Dark Heresy you are bitching so much about.*

hell, I could run it with about anything at all. that's the Fucking GM"S FUCKING JOB!

Not the game itself. The GM. All you gave was some cool flavor text and lead up to the actual 'stuff'.  Big whomp. Sounds like you need to give your GM a caffeen drip and STFU, that's about it. If you are the GM just slap yourself until you feed those lines to your players instead of whining to the rest of us that your games aren't totally metal awesome hamburger hill style.


*AFMBE, Shadowrun (any edition), Champions through a SF hero filter.... the list is mother fucking endless....

If it would shut him up I'd mail him my copy of HoL. As much as I like it, I like his whiney 'Its not a videogamemovie' bitch even less.  Of course, then I'd just lose my book 'cause I know he'd totally keep bitching anyway and still not get that that shit don't come from rules, it comes from the GM. And the players, but largely the GM.  I could totally run Exalted with Runequest, I just make all the NPC's have half the characters starting skills and let the players describe bad ass wirefu shit.  Hell, I could even award +10-20% for 'stunting' to really steal Exalted's thunder. Toss in free runes for 'powerz' and presto, superhuman badassess with a ruleset generally held as gritty and lethal.

Or do I simply have a totally fucked up grasp on what rules actually DO at the table?

I saw a copy of Inquisitor in a shop the other day. Maybe that's what Erik's after

I don't know if I agree with Erik's criticisms of WFRP.  I've only flipped through the book and read other's opinions on it and it sounds pretty cool.

But I do find Erik's vision quite compelling and focused and I see no reason why a game designed for high-powered, grim, ass-kicking space marines who really smash some shit up wouldn't be quite cool.