Warhammer - where did it go so horribly wrong

kryyst · October 16, 2007, 02:48:49 PM

Quote from: Erik BoielleIf it is supposed to be high powered the game sucks.

Not that I expect you to be able to, since this thread is now 12 pages in and you haven't yet. But what's your definition of High Power and how is it that you don't find Warhammer capable of doing it?

Joey2k · October 16, 2007, 03:07:15 PM

Quote from: Erik BoielleHow many people do you know who play it like that, even though evidence suggests it should be a popular form?

The fact that most people do not play it like that should tell you something about which play style is more popular. It's not the mindless hack and slash style, no matter how much you want it to be or how strongly you insist that it is.

EDIT-Should have read further, Drew already beat me to it.

Drew · October 16, 2007, 04:59:11 PM

Quote from: One Horse TownI don't think so. I think he's saying that if you present someone with a chocolate cake, they'll take that over the sponge one. Trouble is, that there are only so many varieties of chocolate cake, whilst there are loads of other types of cake. Oddly, he's arguing for the 3 book 40k model, but ignoring the first 2, leaving only the space marine one. That limits options and in an RPG that isn't what is expected.

If cake is the new metaphor then WFRP is the entire counter at the bakery, where chocolate is just one of the flavours on display. Erik is arguing that said confection should be the only variety available, solely because he believes that's what everyone wants all the time, whether it be for weddings, birthdays or bun fights.

QuoteI see what he means, but i'm by no means convinced.

Yeah, his point is fairly obvious. It just has very little support outside of Erik's own tenuous multimedia demographical analysis.

Erik Boielle · October 16, 2007, 05:04:18 PM

Quote from: kryystNot that I expect you to be able to, since this thread is now 12 pages in and you haven't yet. But what's your definition of High Power and how is it that you don't find Warhammer capable of doing it?

Hmmm. Well, to an extent I mean 'like other popular roleplaying games'.

Er, from the top

DnD - okay, you start low but swiftly gain HP and whatnot so you are definate Heros. Not part of the masses.

White Wolf - Vampires, werewolves, Exalted obviously. Maybe low down the pecking order of, but certainly

Palladium - A starting rifts party might be a Juicer, Glitter Boy, Dragon and Cyber Knight.

And, er, if Warhammer ever had a USP it was being More. I mean, they invented the whole heroic stature miniatures thing. Where other people had nice, clean fantasy, Games Workshop was chaos spiky bits of gothic death and whatnot.

So anyway, a lot of it is is about the kinda thing, you know, where battle plans might involve the 3rd and 4th Infantry Battalions hold the left wing while a party of magical teenagers launch an attack in the center.

With WFRP, you are really one of the masses. Elite soldiers are way better than you (I mean, presumably there are whole units of knights and Inner Circle Knights tooling about. But, even though the rules don't really cover it, there is still a kind off assumption that mighty DnD high levelers are running around - you just arn't them (By WFRP rules, a complete Master Wizard, representing, so I am told, seventy sessions of play is still a gimp compared to the mythical battle wizards, or that at least is the excuse given for magic in the RPG being Less than magic in the wargame. And, I mean, ponder the stating of Warhammer big characters, like Karl-Franz or Abaddon the despoiler. Either they break the rules are are Uber, or they end up looking a little - Wet)

So I dunno. In a D20 game you could easily have a standard party of a wardancer, bright wizard, giant slayer and imperial Champion running dungeons filled with demons and whatnot.

(Then you get my own opinion, which is that after playing Kratos or this Baldur guy who is a cybernetically enhanced Aesir-analog who battle endless armies of Machines RPGs should get with the program and realise it isn't the eighties any more).

GrimJesta · October 16, 2007, 05:13:37 PM

[votes this the worst thread ever]

-=Grim=-

Erik Boielle · October 16, 2007, 05:13:42 PM

Quote from: DrewIf cake is the new metaphor then WFRP is the entire counter at the bakery, where chocolate is just one of the flavours on display. Erik is arguing that said confection should be the only variety available, solely because he believes that's what everyone wants all the time, whether it be for weddings, birthdays or bun fights.

Ah, but GW are the worlds leading chocolate manufacturer.

And its not so much chocolate as GW makes cakes while WFRP is, i dunno, vomit flavoured tofu.

And lack of magical healing. Makes it really difficult to run WoW style things. And there is a disincentive to use magic, which is always gonna cut down on its use.

Erik Boielle · October 16, 2007, 05:16:53 PM

Quote from: GrimJesta[votes this the worst thread ever]

Pah!

You know I'm right.

Warhammer setting book for DnD4! It'd be HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--

Being one of the masses does make gaming more difficult aswell - for instance here:-

http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=285

people are discussing why, in the demo for Dark Heresy, the PCs are brought in to do a job which would seemingly be easier for the soldier who are already there to deal with (squad of guard Veterans with heavy weapons and a Sergent and Comisaar vs. a handful of green recruits with sidearms?).

If instead there were a bunch of level 0 grunts hanging around outside the mine and the level 5 Troubleshooting PCs turned up, obviously the locals can't deal with it, and they had better stay out of the way while the real men work.

Drew · October 16, 2007, 05:22:14 PM

Quote from: GrimJesta[votes this the worst thread ever]

-=Grim=-

Yep. I'm not even going to bother any more.

At least I can take solace in the fact that WFRP won't be changing into a flavourless, homogenous appendage of the war game any time soon.

GrimJesta · October 16, 2007, 05:28:52 PM

Quote from: Erik BoiellePah!

You know I'm right.

I know I've been GMing the new WFRP since it came out and the old WFRP since 1990, played the tabletop game since 1987 and have been reading the novels since they started them. In other words, I know you're not right.

Have you read any of the novels? They're nothing like you're claiming the Old World to be.

And yes, I've run some high powered tabletop games and even have the bonus of getting to play (for once) in one. The game handles chewing through hordes of Skaven quiet nicely: realistic, but still heroic.

-=Grim=-

Erik Boielle · October 16, 2007, 05:30:52 PM

Quote from: DrewAt least I can take solace in the fact that WFRP won't be changing into a flavourless, homogenous appendage of the war game any time soon.

You know BI would do better if it did though. And all those little warhammer fanboys would love it!

And I don't understand why they haven't. They still got endless hatemail and death threats, and the Green Ronin dude said he had issues with what he liked and what 'the fans' liked, so why didn't they act like the evil faceless megacorperation they are and cash in?

It's so ODD!

GrimJesta · October 16, 2007, 05:37:07 PM

Quote from: Erik BoielleYou know BI would do better if it did though. And all those little warhammer fanboys would love it!

No they wouldn't. Those little wargame fanboys usually aren't into tabletop RPGs. If they were they'd play them. There's plenty out there that would cater to the bloodshed the wargame is about. BI is smart. They know who the target audience is: people who love the setting and think the wargame is somewhat cheesy. Just read the forums for the game.

-=Grim=-

Erik Boielle · October 16, 2007, 05:40:18 PM

Quote from: GrimJestaJust read the forums for the game.

Pfffft. Thats like reading No Mutants Allowed to do a fallout game or Outpost Gallifrey for Dr. Who! Hell, its practically like reading ILoveMacs for comments on how to improve the new version of Office.

The people they want do play roleplaying games. It's people who like the setting but currently play DnD. More off em, you see.

Erik Boielle · October 16, 2007, 05:44:03 PM

Or ZionistsForTheDestructionOfArabs for thoughts on dealing with Palestine. Or the KKK Klan Forums for US immigration issues.

Well possibly not*, but forums do tend to be self selecting. It might be more interesting to study people who might be invested but arn't why they arn't

*Or, at least, not anymore! :0)

--

Incidentally, my own preference might be something like this:-

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26497.html

(again, another trailer for too human).

This time the guy goes on about video games being the Eighth Art Form and how by telling Serious Stories with Serious Art Direction and related Srs bsns video games will blah blah blah.

The dude has a cyber-thor kicking the shit out of mecha-goblins. In space. In dungeons. If he can claim art, anyone can. Even Warhammer. And not a pansy gimp in sight!

cnath.rm · October 16, 2007, 06:36:49 PM

Quote from: Pierce InverarityQuestion: Is the case of Privateer and their Iron Kingdoms RPG instructive in this regard? It is, or was, selling well enough, yes? Is this due to its differences from the mini games, its similarity to them, something else?

I went with it as a response to the idea that GW's lessoning market share was entirely due to video games instead of being partially due to other companies coming out and using a different game/business model.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI don't think so. It took them ages to get the iron kingdom roleplaying stuff out, I believe because they spent the time on the more profitable miniatures stuff.

And they may not be a public company, so they don't have to be as mercenary about it.

So for them the RPG is also likly to be essentially a hobby or labour of love than a sensible business decision.

Only after the adventure trilogy for which there wasn't a huge delay iirc.

The whole thing started out as a side business to their day jobs, which is sad because had they been able to get the rpg books into distro sooner they might have ended up with better market share for the RPG.

Erik Boielle · October 17, 2007, 04:54:09 AM