Warhammer is one of those systems for varying reasons I never got into. I've been playing Vermintide II - and it's awesome. I'm considering checking out Warhammer FRP for the first time. The question is: Where to start? and WHY there?
Since Vermintide most likely deals with Skaven, I was going to suggest to go light and start with the Loathsome Ratmen And All Their Vile Kin, which is an all-fluff background book, but apparently there are no digital editions, and for a softcover published in 2004-5 the prices are crazy... There's a scribd version though.
Therefore, the best start IMHO would be the following trilogy, all 2nd edition:
The Tome of Salvation. THE best setting book for the Empire, it has oodles of atmosphere and ideas.
The Children of the Horned Rat. LRAATVK + stats, everything you need for Skaven antagonists and their motivations can be found here.
WFRP Main Rulebook, 2nd. ed. So that the two books above would make sense.
I like both first and second edition so I would get whichever core book is cheaper tbh.
There's also a whole host of free stuff on the web for both those editions available here: http://grognard.org.uk/ -Obviously it's of varying quality, but it should help get your feet wet.
Cost is not an issue for me. But I don't want to buy something I won't really need.
And also - the fact I'm playing Vermintide shouldn't be what I want exactly from the game. I want the best edition that will allow me to explore the totality of the Warhammer Fantasy world(s).
Quote from: tenbones;1030439Cost is not an issue for me. But I don't want to buy something I won't really need.
And also - the fact I'm playing Vermintide shouldn't be what I want exactly from the game. I want the best edition that will allow me to explore the totality of the Warhammer Fantasy world(s).
Ok, the 1st edition core-book is very complete, of a magnitude you do not really see today. But its an older version of the setting, for example Colour Magic is missing, the god Sigmar is missing, and the tone is different to later books. Most first edition supplements are scenarios.
2nd edition uses a more up-to-date setting that it shares with Vermintide (basically the last true Warhammer Fantasy setting before they blew it up and ... actually that's not important right now). But it does not cover the world in detail, you will need various supplements for that. But a lot of the first edition stuff was converted over pretty much wholesale and is available for free.
3rd edition is really, really incomplete and lacks even basic information in the core box-set, you need a supplement to get horses for fucks sake. Also, custom dice and character cards.
4th edition should be out this year... maybe... fuck knows.
Well, I'd say that the first edition has overall better adventures, but second edition improves the system on every level. For me, the game has always worked best as a sort of CoC / Crapsack Fantasy -hybrid, of which Shadows Over Bögenhafen is a brilliant example - and a good introductory adventure. And the best part is, if your players really make a mess of it, you'll have a ruined city with a chaos gate at your disposal!
In addition to my previous list, I'd add Sigmar's Heirs for geography, and Old World Bestiary for more iconic monsters than in the main rulebook. Maybe Tome of Corruption for the Full Chaos Experience.
So...
I should pick up 2e and its supplementary material to really "get into" the world? And system-wise stick with 2e until 4e comes out and then judge accordingly?
I'd wait for 4E. Apparently it is heavily inspired by 1E and 2E.
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Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1030446I'd wait for 4E. Apparently it is heavily inspired by 1E and 2E.
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If you can get 1e in PDF for cheap now, I'd do that, get a feel for the gamestyle / worldstyle while you are waiting for 4e to arrive, use that to run your campaign.
1e holds up pretty well overall, but it has plenty of sharp edges and holes that a 4e could fix.
More to consider. Now I'm eyeballing ZWEIHANDER too....
Quote from: tenbones;1030458More to consider. Now I'm eyeballing ZWEIHANDER too....
Nah, it's just WHFRP with the serial numbers filed off. Get the real thing. Buy the 2E PDF on the cheap and wait for 4E.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1030466Nah, it's just WHFRP with the serial numbers filed off. Get the real thing. Buy the 2E PDF on the cheap and wait for 4E.
Do the German puns work in German? (One of the modules features a demon called Zahnartz. :) )
Quote from: Motorskills;1030472Do the German puns work in German? (One of the modules features a demon called Zahnartz. :) )
I would argue they work even
better.
Quote from: Nerzenjäger;1030473I would argue they work even better.
Nice. :D
Regardless of whether you're waiting for 4e, get Zweihänder, splurge on 2e or hack Rifts, you go pick up a copy of 1e, in print or pdf, right now.
Quote from: baragei;1030497Regardless of whether you're waiting for 4e, get Zweihänder, splurge on 2e or hack Rifts, you go pick up a copy of 1e, in print or pdf, right now.
If the Old World as represented in the Total War game is appealing to him, he shouldn't get 1E.
Tenbones, take it from a fellow D.O.N.G. Black Belt:
Pick up the WFRP 1st Edition Book and read it. DTRPG has a great pdf, not just a cheap scan of an old book.
While you're doing that, I'll dig up the name of the next book to read. You'll want to check that out before you get into Bogenhafen.
Leave 2nd Edition for later. It's a great game, but doesn't have the Garage Days Mad Alchemy of the 1st.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1030538Tenbones, take it from a fellow D.O.N.G. Black Belt:
Pick up the WFRP 1st Edition Book and read it. DTRPG has a great pdf, not just a cheap scan of an old book.
While you're doing that, I'll dig up the name of the next book to read. You'll want to check that out before you get into Bogenhafen.
Leave 2nd Edition for later. It's a great game, but doesn't have the Garage Days Mad Alchemy of the 1st.
Taken under advisement. I've purchased 1e and 2e and I'm just going to do what you've said. I figure I can absorb the setting to my hearts content, and pick up all the other books as I go and absorb them and wait for 4e before I start tossing dice!
Thus far - it's been very revealing to me. I have this odd sense that there is DNA from 1e/2e that found some mechanical elements into D&D 3.x (which WotC fubarred. Specifically the Action mechanics. It looks like they tried to implement the WHFRP 2e action-mechanics in this odd half-ass way. Double irony - it appears to be the same general mechanics in Fantasycraft which appears much closer to WHFRP, which work much better.)
Loving the setting. System looks fun too, and setting appropriate.
I'm not a super expert on WFRP, but I played a bunch of 2E, own a lot of that line, and looked at 1E and 3E. I think 2E is the obvious purchase here: the core book seems to be functionally a tidied up 1E that managed to keep the original vibe, and the support of the setting is spectacularly greater than the other editions. I most own a dozen or more really good supplements. Most people who post about this game seem to love the big campaign modules. I actually don't - I find them wordy and overly 'rail roady'. So, personally I just skip those completely and focus on the excellent books on nations and regions, spells, monsters, etc.
One thing about WFRP that has always chapped my ass is the way the game handles large, physically powerful creatures. Because it committed to a closed Strength scale, set with humans covering most of the range, a very large, physically powerful creature doesn't have a strength score much higher than a powerful human. And, because of the relationship between damage and strength score, they therefore don't do much more damage per successful blow. So, the game's 'solution' to this puzzle is to give large, physically powerful beings large numbers of attacks, such that their damage is effectively multiplied (sort of; each requires a to-hit roll, so it isn't really a damage multiplier). I find this to be one of the goofier, solution-looking-for-a-problem design elements I've run across in a second edition of a major game. If I were in charge of the 4th edition, I'd keep most of the structure of the game as 2E, but get rid of this nonsense.
Quote from: Larsdangly;1030572One thing about WFRP that has always chapped my ass is the way the game handles large, physically powerful creatures. Because it committed to a closed Strength scale, set with humans covering most of the range, a very large, physically powerful creature doesn't have a strength score much higher than a powerful human. And, because of the relationship between damage and strength score, they therefore don't do much more damage per successful blow. So, the game's 'solution' to this puzzle is to give large, physically powerful beings large numbers of attacks, such that their damage is effectively multiplied (sort of; each requires a to-hit roll, so it isn't really a damage multiplier). I find this to be one of the goofier, solution-looking-for-a-problem design elements I've run across in a second edition of a major game. If I were in charge of the 4th edition, I'd keep most of the structure of the game as 2E, but get rid of this nonsense.
Indeed. I think that they should have doubled the Warhammer Battle scale for monsters, at least for bigger creatures. A range of 1-20 would have given a lot more granularity. S5 T4 troll is scary in WFB, but humans can easily exceed those stats in WFRP. S10 T8 troll, however, would give you a run for your money.
WFRP is one of the best rpg's ever made! Buy the 1st or 2nd edition rulebook, both contain a very good introductory scenario. Personally i suggest 2nd for the better rules system and the excellent sourcebooks.
I run Zweihander and the best part is that it is Warhammer with the serial numbers filed off. That is not a bad thing. I can make my own timelines and calendars and there is no canon to consider, that is definitely not a minus.
I'm running The Enemy Within in a pub with Zweihander and it is a blast. Conversion is no problem and it is easy to bring in other concepts.
I understand WFRP has a major case of 'canon', but I never payed any attention to it. I always felt like it was more or less equivalent to the canon Traveller story line: someone else's story and not really relevant to much of anything that is going to happen at my table.
Quote from: bat;1030628I run Zweihander and the best part is that it is Warhammer with the serial numbers filed off. That is not a bad thing. I can make my own timelines and calendars and there is no canon to consider, that is definitely not a minus.
I'm running The Enemy Within in a pub with Zweihander and it is a blast. Conversion is no problem and it is easy to bring in other concepts.
How do you like it so far? I'm a hardcore WFRPG 1e fan, and thought about running it before the director’s cut announcement of the enemy within.
I am currently using it for a Witcher Campaign, and plan to blog it on Obsidian Portal. It is very easy to use it for non-Warhammer stuff. The entire game is practically begging to be played beyond its source material.
Zweihander's greatest strength is that it's WFRP with the serial numbers covered with tape (not even filed off).
That is also Zweihander's greatest weakness.
Without being able to actually name names and use the WH setting, everything is close to WFRP, but not quite there flavorwise, which defeats one of the main purposes - using it for WFRP.
Because it is close to WFRP, but not quite, that leaves the specifics feeling somewhat vanilla and generic, which defeats the other main purpose - using it for Not WFRP.
I can't help but think the game would have been better with an actual setting that was Warhammeresque or "inspired by" rather than a nameless Warhammer-clone setting. More like Shadows of the Demon Lord.
I try my best not to step on anyone's favorite edition or way to play, if it works for you and your group then that is the best game for you.
To me the advantage of Zweihander and the release from canon is that I'm avoiding the Star Wars/Lord of the Rings rpg effect, the players aren't stomping around in someone else's boots. The story is theirs. I also like Lord Dunsany and Glen Cook's Black Company series. I can port in themes from these authors seamlessly in Zweihander, I'm not changing anything, I'm bolting things on. And make no mistake, I have my WFRP1 books on hand too.
I appreciate the Zweihander rpg and its lack of canon works for me while still producing the Warhammer vibe, if you and your group prefer the official game and rules there is nothing wrong with that either. Just get people to play.
So what about 40k's RPG'S - Dark Heresy etc.
System similar to WHFRP?
Quote from: tenbones;1030784So what about 40k's RPG'S - Dark Heresy etc.
System similar to WHFRP?
They are built on a 2nd ed core but with classes added. Personally I am not a fan but they sold by the boat load.
The monster manuals type books tended to be reasonably comparable and I did end up using some in stuff from them in my WFRP games.
This rabbit-hole is starting to get deep.
Wait a minute... those rabbits look like rats....
Quote from: tenbones;1030789This rabbit-hole is starting to get deep.
Wait a minute... those rabbits look like rats....
Careful, that way lies witch hunters, there are no such things as giant rats.
Ok Tenbones, now that you have WFRP1, get either the old book Warhammer Campaign or the new pdf Shadows Over Bogenhafen. They both have the same thing. About 40 pages of background and some rules, then a short introductory adventure Mistaken Indentity and then Shadows Over Bogenhafen.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1030954Ok Tenbones, now that you have WFRP1, get either the old book Warhammer Campaign or the new pdf Shadows Over Bogenhafen. They both have the same thing. About 40 pages of background and some rules, then a short introductory adventure Mistaken Indentity and then Shadows Over Bogenhafen.
You cannot go wrong with this advice. Absolutely solid and an easy way of understanding the Empire.
Quote from: bat;1030997You cannot go wrong with this advice. Absolutely solid and an easy way of understanding the Empire.
Actually the 1e corebook has perfectly serviceable mini-adventure in it.
A minor problem with
Mistaken Identity is that the whole...er...identity thing has been a problem for the past thirty years. Hopefully it will be resolved in 4e, but I'm not holding my breath.
Quote from: tenbones;1030784So what about 40k's RPG'S - Dark Heresy etc.
System similar to WHFRP?
DH1 is similar to WFRP2 in play mechanics, but character creation and advancement are rather different. With each line of the 40K games, the differences in character creation and advancement shifted more and more, with DH2 (the final game line) having very little in common with DH1 in those areas (but in play, aside from psyker power, it was very similar).
Quote from: Motorskills;1031000Actually the 1e corebook has perfectly serviceable mini-adventure in it.
A minor problem with Mistaken Identity is that the whole...er...identity thing has been a problem for the past thirty years. Hopefully it will be resolved in 4e, but I'm not holding my breath.
It's the intro campaign info that's very useful. History, politics, religion, travel, Sigmar Priests, Herbs etc.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1031010It's the intro campaign info that's very useful. History, politics, religion, travel, Sigmar Priests, Herbs etc.
Yes, you are absolutely correct, lots of excellent info / theme.
Only War's the most distilled system-wise of the entire line. That's not necessarily saying a lot. If you're up for changing names, places, titles and terms around, you could quite conceivably and fairly easily turn it into WHFRP. If you want something ready-to-go, stick with 2E (that's the one I played and my experience with game and group I played with was so-so/alright).
I had to heavily modify portions of the system when I hosted Only War back in the day -- and it made fucktons more fun and rewarding for my players thank God -- so there will be plenty of things in the system you probably are just gonna hate if you're the kind of GM who actually likes to design scenarios and do gameplay that isn't proscribed by the book (and that's something the WH40KRP games are very much about!) WHFRP suffers from this too -- just know that going in.
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1031029Only War's the most distilled system-wise of the entire line. That's not necessarily saying a lot. If you're up for changing names, places, titles and terms around, you could quite conceivably and fairly easily turn it into WHFRP. If you want something ready-to-go, stick with 2E (that's the one I played and my experience with game and group I played with was so-so/alright).
I had to heavily modify portions of the system when I hosted Only War back in the day -- and it made fucktons more fun and rewarding for my players thank God -- so there will be plenty of things in the system you probably are just gonna hate if you're the kind of GM who actually likes to design scenarios and do gameplay that isn't proscribed by the book (and that's something the WH40KRP games are very much about!) WHFRP suffers from this too -- just know that going in.
Got a link?
I would go with WFRP 2e, ideally.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1031345I would go with WFRP 2e, ideally.
Nah, he's got to start with WFRP1, find out what the Old World was like before the Storm of Chaos began the death spiral.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1030954Ok Tenbones, now that you have WFRP1, get either the old book Warhammer Campaign or the new pdf Shadows Over Bogenhafen. They both have the same thing. About 40 pages of background and some rules, then a short introductory adventure Mistaken Indentity and then Shadows Over Bogenhafen.
Mission materials secured. Processing!
Quote from: CRKrueger;1031358Nah, he's got to start with WFRP1, find out what the Old World was like before the Storm of Chaos began the death spiral.
The rules for 2e are far more usable.
It is great that playing a video game has made the OP want to get some WHFRP books out and do some proper roleplaying. I was never that happy with the system they used but it is quite serviceable. Vermintide is a great game btw.
Quote from: tenbones;1030458More to consider. Now I'm eyeballing ZWEIHANDER too....
If you've not picked up Zweihander yet, I'd check out this 5 part detailed review from the Vorpal Mace blog.
http://vorpalmace.blogspot.hu/2017/06/review-zweihander-grim-and-perilous-rpg.html
Thanks! Reading that blog now. I've been voraciously devouring Warhammer and while I know the system is important, I'm more interested in the setting. I haven't run the game yet, so I'll have to see how much I like the system, and it if takes, Zweihander may be a realistic purchase, simply because I like a good system. But I'm all in for the Warhammer experience, so I want to run as native as possible. How different are the editions vs. Zweihwander overall?
I can give you my experience with WFRPG. My friends and I were primarily D&D players switching back and forth from 1st and 2nd edition before we gave Warhammer 1st edition a try. The intro adventure killed two characters gruesomely approaching scenarios the same way we would in D&D. The edition difference is very similar to the way people feel about 1st and 2nd edition D&D. 2nd edition is much more streamlined and cleaner but you find yourself going back to the 1st edition as a baseline and additional detail. Also, like D&D, I was playing 1st edition before I was actively reading any novels of the line. It was what the difference between what you thought it was and what you knew it was. Zweihander feels like a happy medium but also doesn't feel like Warhammer without the setting. My recommendations:
1. Never read the novels & expansions and play 1st editon WFRPG.
2. Read the novels & expansions and play 2nd edition WFRPG.
3. Grow weary of the WFRPG setting and make your own using Zweihander.
I think it really comes down to player expectations of setting and system and what everyone is willing to change based on preferences.
4e will be launched at UK Expo at the beginning of June. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePiPbEdFAbc&t=1166s)
/BOINNNG!!!!
Okay then. 4e it'll be. But in the meantime I have all this other material to absorb. WOOO