Taken from a thread I'm contributing to on EN World:
WFRP has been a favourite of mine for decades, offering a grimmer, more bloodthirsty alternative to the traditional high fantasy gaming I grew up with. Warhammer Fantasy Greyhawk is a project I've had on the back burner for a few months now, being a darker interpretation of the Oerth depicted in the U series of modules and the 1983 boxed set. I think the WFRP 2E ruleset - and the career system in particular - would be a great fit for EGG's setting.
The idea struck me a few months ago whilst digging through some old AD&D modules. It was the late medieval blend of mundane investigation tinged with supernatural dread in The Sininster Secret of Saltmarsh that really made me sit up and give serious consideration. After that the floodgates were open to the horrific potential of adventures like The Temple of Elemental Evil and Against the Giants played through the dark, distorting lens of Warhammer. Greyhawk, with it's vast and impenetrable geography, crumbling feudal states and quasi-european culture feels like the perfect backdrop for a system that emphasises strength of arms, force in numbers and ambush tactics.
One final thing-- The Old World remains one of my favourite settings in print. In no way would I wish WFG to be seen as a challenge to it's undisputed awesomeness. I just thought I'd share one of my back burner ideas - there's usually at least half a dozen on the go on any given day - and see what people thought. Is decoupling WFRP from it's setting the act of frothing madman, or am I on to something here? Thoughts, criticisms and contributions welcome.
I tried using WFRP for Kalamar, but it never went through. I had to redo a lot of the equipment and skills (since the Old World has gunpowder and the printing press, amongst other developments) and got bored halfway through. I also had to redo the Career charts as well, since many of them wouldn't exist in Kalamar. But I agree that WFRP is perfect for many settings, introducing a gritty, far more sisnister aspect to your favorite D&D settings.
-=Grim=-
Quote from: GrimJesta;245747I tried using WFRP for Kalamar, but it never went through. I had to redo a lot of the equipment and skills (since the Old World has gunpowder and the printing press, amongst other developments) and got bored halfway through. I also had to redo the Career charts as well, since many of them wouldn't exist in Kalamar. But I agree that WFRP is perfect for many settings, introducing a gritty, far more sisnister aspect to your favorite D&D settings.
My first thought was to keep everything-- including the gun powder and press --and assume that they're a damn sight rarer than in the Old World. Regionally based basic careers are easy to hack: 9-11 advances (with a caps of +15%, +1 Mag and +1 Attacks) and a dozen or less skills. Advanced careers can be anything you like, up to the 40%, +3 , +3 caps.
The few house rules I'd add would help beef starting PCs up a little. Shallya's Mercy on up to three stats. A second, non-career specific free advance of +5%. The option to flip-flop a failed percentile roll instead of rerolling when spending a Fortune Point. Just enough to make the players seem a little more competent than their Imperial counterparts.
Magic would be tied to specific deities, traditions or legacies, eg. The Lore of Iuz, The Lore of Tenser or The Lore of Tharizdun. I'm not sure what I'd do for Tzeentch's Curse, but the idea of magic being dangerous and unpredictable still appeals.
Hrmm. You're much more lenient than I would be. But those alterations make the game a bit more heroic indeed, which is probably a really good thing when using the system for an AD&D setting.
Also: flip-flopping the number when spending a Fortune point is a pretty sweet idea. think I just yoinked that for my game (I recently added the houserule that players can use a Fortune Point to auto-conform Ulric's Fury as well, so it looks like FP's are going to have an even bigger impact on the game now-a-days).
-=Grim=-
Glad to be of assistance. I've found the flip-flop can make a big difference to players feeling empowered at the table. Not necessarily suitable for every campaign, but a handy variant to know.
Eh, sometimes WFRP can use a dose of player empowerment, since it seems to be built on the premise of player dismemberment. While I lose the gritty realism of WFRP, sometimes I wish there'd be a moment of true heroism instead of another black-powder weapon blowing up in a PCs face and ruining her eye during a critical (no pun intended) encounter.
-=Grim=-
Quote from: GrimJesta;245766Eh, sometimes WFRP can use a dose of player empowerment, since it seems to be built on the premise of player dismemberment. While I lose the gritty realism of WFRP, sometimes I wish there'd be a moment of true heroism instead of another black-powder weapon blowing up in a PCs face and ruining her eye during a critical (no pun intended) encounter.
Of course the hard won victories are the sweetest, especially when Lady Luck dons her dominatrix outfit for WFRP.
But yeah, I get what you mean. ;)
Moving back to WFG, if I get any time before Christmas I'm going to try and write a mechanical and thematic conversion of
The Village of Hommlett. By "thematic conversion" I mean adjusting the tone of the module to better emphasise the horror and apocalyptic dread that WFRP does so well. What abides in the ruins of the moathouse will drive the unwary to madness, and 'Lareth the Beautiful' will be anything but. Good times.
Honestly, and I really don't mean this as a troll, but I can't reall see anything in Greyhawk worth using over the Old World. I just find the latter a lot more interesting and a lot less bland.
It sounds like you're more interested in the adventures themselves anyway, and it seems like it'd be a lot easier to convert the adventures to more WFRP-ish versions, than converting WFRP to be more Greyhawkish.
A lot of those old adventures were pretty lethal and scary all their own anyway, I think "heroing it up" or whatever would actually be kind of against the grain anyway.
QuoteI never really thought that much of Greyhawk when I ran it with AD&D. At best I found it to be serviceable if generic, which is hardly surprising given its history. Once the seed of the WFRP conversion was planted the whole thing took on a different luster. I realised that for me, the vital missing component was the kind of low fantasy horror, mixed with mass combat, that WFRP does so well. Suddenly Greyhawk became an interesting proposition.
Forget that. It was only in my late teens that I thought Greyhawk was stodgy. A few years prior to that I
loved it. The geography, the mythology, the weird names, the epic history that was a record of deeds done during Gygax's weekly game. Too often I let the so-called "cool" and "adult" parts of my brain take over and disavow love for things that brought me tremendous happiness in the past. This isn't going to be one of them. I'm coming out for Greyhawk!
So, there's that part of me that still loves Greyhawk, that would enjoy seeing something different done with it.
Warhammer Fantasy Greyhawk will be my attempt.
I kinda of like this idea. For me the WFRP system coupled with Carl Sargent's series of modules/setting material seems like a good idea. Although I like the WFRP career system I would probably find it difficult to come up with Greyhawk specific careers for this campaign. I mean some stuff is easy to convert but I like the idea of having some careers that are unique to Greyhawk.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David R;245868I kinda of like this idea. For me the WFRP system coupled with Carl Sargent's series of modules/setting material seems like a good idea. Although I like the WFRP career system I would probably find it difficult to come up with Greyhawk specific careers for this campaign. I mean some stuff is easy to convert but I like the idea of having some careers that are unique to Greyhawk.
Regards,
David R
Y'know, I was pretty doubtful of the suitability of the Warhammer/Greyhawk mix until I read your post. While the '83 box set wouldn't really be a great fit,
From the Ashes definitely would. Carl Sargent's "Iuz the Evil," "City of Skulls," and "The Marklands" all contain that atmosphere of madness and horror that Warhammer is known for.
The vast majority of careers in WFRP aren't unique to the Old World, so I don't think coming up with Careers for Greyhawk will be a problem. Knightly orders may have different names, but they all still use the same Knight career. Nah mean?
-=Grim=-
Quote from: David R;245868I kinda of like this idea. For me the WFRP system coupled with Carl Sargent's series of modules/setting material seems like a good idea.
It's pretty easy to project the old TSR UK stuff onto WFRP - most of the writers were moonlighting for GW back in the 80s. The similarities are pretty striking in places.
QuoteAlthough I like the WFRP career system I would probably find it difficult to come up with Greyhawk specific careers for this campaign. I mean some stuff is easy to convert but I like the idea of having some careers that are unique to Greyhawk.
For basic careers it's a question of assigning between nine and eleven advances to the main profile, adding a menu of a dozen skills/talents and writing some fluff. 'Pomarj Hill Fighter' becomes viable, if that's where your interests lie. Personally I think the careers in the core book will suffice for the vast majority of Greyhawk professions.
Quote from: GrimJesta;245924The vast majority of careers in WFRP aren't unique to the Old World, so I don't think coming up with Careers for Greyhawk will be a problem. Knightly orders may have different names, but they all still use the same Knight career. Nah mean?
Yep.
Quote from: Drew;245958It's pretty easy to project the old TSR UK stuff onto WFRP - most of the writers were moonlit for GW back in the 80s. The similarities are pretty striking in places.
Probably one of the reason's why I think Sargent's work on
Greyhawk would work with the
WFRP system.
QuoteFor basic careers it's a question of assigning between nine and eleven advances to the main profile, adding a menu of a dozen skills/talents and writing some fluff. 'Pomarj Hill Fighter' becomes viable, if that's where your interests lie. Personally I think the careers in the core book will suffice for the vast majority of Greyhawk professions.
You may be right. But I was thinking for
Greyhawk a more fantasy "feel" would work better for me and retain the flavour of the setting. Pomarj Hill Fighter sounds about right, though.
Edit: BTW what kind of
Greyhawk professions are we talking about ? It's been some time since I looked through my collection. Are you talking about normal
D&D stuff or
Greyhawk specific professions ?
Regards,
David R
It sounds like a good idea; the UK (U and UK) series of 1e AD&D modules obviously fit incredibly well, as does most stuff by Gygax. Gary Gygax's Yggsburgh from (Troll Lord Games) would also fit in very well in this conception of Greyhawk, possibly as a stand-in for Greyhawk itself. I don't know if the high-power high-level modules are useable in WFRP (eg Ghost Tower of Inverness, White Plume Mountain et al) but they have an appropriately grim feel.
Quote from: David R;245994You may be right. But I was thinking for Greyhawk a more fantasy "feel" would work better for me and retain the flavour of the setting. Pomarj Hill Fighter sounds about right, though.
Edit: BTW what kind of Greyhawk professions are we talking about ? It's been some time since I looked through my collection. Are you talking about normal D&D stuff or Greyhawk specific professions ?
The latter.
WFRP (both editions) spreads the traditional D&D class roles across dozens of careers, supplemented with a few racial and regional variants. My instinct is to stick with that model- there's little to be gained from writing up the 'Warrior of Geoff' career path when Mercenary -> Veteran -> Champion already fills that niche. To use a current example, I'm thinking of
Realm of the Ice Queen, where perhaps a dozen or so Kislevite careers are provided as supplemental material. Each region of the Flanaess would be treated similarly, with the ones most resembling the late medieval paradigm of the Old World requiring few (if any) additional careers.
Quote from: S'mon;246005It sounds like a good idea; the UK (U and UK) series of 1e AD&D modules obviously fit incredibly well, as does most stuff by Gygax. Gary Gygax's Yggsburgh from (Troll Lord Games) would also fit in very well in this conception of Greyhawk, possibly as a stand-in for Greyhawk itself. I don't know if the high-power high-level modules are useable in WFRP (eg Ghost Tower of Inverness, White Plume Mountain et al) but they have an appropriately grim feel.
I think some delicacy would be required when converting. Fourth career WFRP PCs are death on legs within the confines of their own system, but can't hold a candle to the survivability of their D&D counterparts. That said, the narrower power scale is one of the things that excites me about the idea. To me, high level
WFG (and yeah, it does feel a bit presumptuous when I capitalise my own fan project, but in the long run it's going to save me a lot of time and virtual ink) feels like a better fit for the grim lethality of Gygax's Greyhawk modules than AD&D. Even the most powerful PCs are still on a mortal scale, and the world is the kind of place where no one, no matter how great their expertise, takes a charging knight or a rampaging giant lightly. Skill, stealth, bundles of courage, luck, and the best arms and armour money could buy would be the trappings of a successful adventurer, not hit points in the hundreds.
BTW there are a bunch of D&D (and a few WHFRP) adventures in old (pre-100) White Dwarf that would fit this concept perfectly. Personally I think a low fantasy campaign using the '83 Greyhawk boxed set, the Saltmarsh trilogy, and anything by Graeme Morris is the way to go. I think From the Ashes era is a lot more high-powered and black vs white in its setup, the world of the '83 set is a lot greyer and more nuanced. For instance, the '83 set Great Kingdom is a slightly nastier WHFRP Empire (albeit more 15th than 17th century). In FtA it's a demon-ridden Hell on Earth. Likewise, FTA consolidated a lot of minor bad guy powers under Iuz; good for epic high fantasy, but in the '83 set world WFG PCs could go adventuring in the Bandit Kingdoms or even Horned Society without facing a unified threat.
Quote from: Drew;246009The latter.
WFRP (both editions) spreads the traditional D&D class roles across dozens of careers, supplemented with a few racial and regional variants. My instinct is to stick with that model- there's little to be gained from writing up the 'Warrior of Geoff' career path when Mercenary -> Veteran -> Champion already fills that niche. To use a current example, I'm thinking of Realm of the Ice Queen, where perhaps a dozen or so Kislevite careers are provided as supplemental material. Each region of the Flanaess would be treated similarly, with the ones most resembling the late medieval paradigm of the Old World requiring few (if any) additional careers.
Sounds good. This way for the regional varients you can have say an
Insurgent career in the lands of Iuz,
Survivalist (which could be a general career too) for Lands of the Black Ice...maybe even a
Courier profession, a new career created by the Greyhawk Wars....
Regards,
David R
Quote from: S'mon;246064BTW there are a bunch of D&D (and a few WHFRP) adventures in old (pre-100) White Dwarf that would fit this concept perfectly. Personally I think a low fantasy campaign using the '83 Greyhawk boxed set, the Saltmarsh trilogy, and anything by Graeme Morris is the way to go. .
My thoughts exactly. The inspiration for doing this came from looking over the old Saltmarsh trilogy again.
QuoteI think From the Ashes era is a lot more high-powered and black vs white in its setup, the world of the '83 set is a lot greyer and more nuanced. For instance, the '83 set Great Kingdom is a slightly nastier WHFRP Empire (albeit more 15th than 17th century). In FtA it's a demon-ridden Hell on Earth. Likewise, FTA consolidated a lot of minor bad guy powers under Iuz; good for epic high fantasy, but in the '83 set world WFG PCs could go adventuring in the Bandit Kingdoms or even Horned Society without facing a unified threat
Indeed. There's a crumbling, aged quality to the regions in the '83 set that I really like. The patchwork politics and shifting alliances make for great low fantasy stories with plenty of intrigue. Of course the 10 000 XP, fifth career party can still try to bring down Iuz if they want. I'm hoping the change in system will result in a campaign with a completely different tenor from AD&D characters attempting the similar things.
Quote from: David R;246067Sounds good. This way for the regional varients you can have say an Insurgent career in the lands of Iuz, Survivalist (which could be a general career too) for Lands of the Black Ice...maybe even a Courier profession, a new career created by the Greyhawk Wars....
That's the stuff! I'm more interested in the pre-Greyhawk Wars setting, but your ideas are exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. The new careers need to be atmospheric above all else.
Hmm, I'm not too familiar with pre-war Greyhawk but I suppose beginning careers like Escaped Slave ( Against the Giants, Vault of the Drow etc), Zealot (Scarlett Brotherhood and various other cults), a generic Guilder starting career may evoke said atmosphere.....although like I said, I'm more familiar with post-war Greyhawk.
Regards,
David R
That's cool, the similarities are greater than the differences anyway. The Scarlet Brotherhood career path(s) I'm considering could apply to either version of the setting. I really like the idea of Zealot being one of the entry points though- that's a very nice touch. :)