I'm no expert on the Warhammer 40,000 universe. But I know the basics: totalitarian space empire ruled by oppressive theocracy which worships psychic emperor in life support, fights a dire war for mankind's continued existence, against aliens, mutants and heretics worshipping extradimensioinal demons.
I like Dark Heresy's "investigative horror in a dystopian far future" milieu. It seems to me to be the easiest to grasp and run right off the core book.
I also like Deathwatch's "black ops Space Marines" premise, which is just so promising, but I'd be leery of sliding into a repetitive pattern of kill-fests. Not that the occasional kill-fest game isn't great.
Rogue Trader I'm not entirely sure about. It kind of feels like Traveller on crack. Which I'm not entirely sure whether it's a good thing or a bad thing.
So, what do you think? Actual play experiences welcome.
I've had a lot of fun with the two Deathwatch sessions I've ran*. The game does a good job of recreating the badass nature of genetically modified super-soldiers.
I've always been a fan of the Abnett view of the 40k universe. The oppression, xenophobia, and theocratic elements are still there, but they're toned down somewhat to allow for an actual living world. A setting with millions of planets and trillions upon trillions of inhabitants can't be monoculture without snapping one's suspense of disbelief.
In that vein I think Dark Heresy is a good introduction. I still haven't grasped what a Rogue Trader game looks like. I get lots of "it's like X mixed with Y" mumbo-jumbo, but never how that is accomplished. Deathwatch is fun, and has an Exalted feel to it, but it's probably too focused for an introduction to the setting.
*The only 40k I've actually ran. My other opinions are derived from reading the books and being familiar with the setting.
I'd start with Dark Heresy. It'll be the most familiar to experienced roleplayers, with a mix of investigation, action, and intrigue. It's very easy to introduce new PCs, and to justify sending PCs on quests. Its power level can be scaled to whatever you please, from world-burning generals to hive gang dropouts.
Deathwatch is fairly mechanically complex for new players. There's a lot of talents front-loaded onto your character that're easy to forget about.
Rogue Trader's cool, but it works best with a party where PCs tend to be dynamic and willing to generate their own story ideas rather than follow the plot trail. Kinda like Traveller, IMHO.
DH seems to be the less broken one. RT from my experience of reading it is nowhere near complete and DW seems to be broken beyond belief.
All three, all the time.
They aren't broken or distorted, they've just been fed lots of crack and if you game with them just be ready to accept that fact.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;428159I'd start with Dark Heresy. It'll be the most familiar to experienced roleplayers, with a mix of investigation, action, and intrigue. It's very easy to introduce new PCs, and to justify sending PCs on quests. Its power level can be scaled to whatever you please, from world-burning generals to hive gang dropouts.
Deathwatch is fairly mechanically complex for new players. There's a lot of talents front-loaded onto your character that're easy to forget about.
Rogue Trader's cool, but it works best with a party where PCs tend to be dynamic and willing to generate their own story ideas rather than follow the plot trail. Kinda like Traveller, IMHO.
More or less my experience, but I've got to say, the sandbox that is Rogue Trader is really getting the creative juices flowing. Even the guys (like me) that have been playing 20+ years, are excited to add to the game.
I have run Dark Heresy and it is a lot of fun despite the fact shotguns blow anything in their path that isn't power armoured to bits (actually that's kind of funny so maybe that's a plus point.)
I'm in a weirdass Rogue Trader game at the moment. It's been chopped up and reassembled so that we're not a Rogue Trader and his Crew. We're the various Nobz and specialists surrounding a Warboss.
Quote from: Ian Warner;428308I have run Dark Heresy and it is a lot of fun despite the fact shotguns blow anything in their path that isn't power armoured to bits (actually that's kind of funny so maybe that's a plus point.)
.
Real statistics back up the lethality of the average shotgun in combat situations. This may be why it was considered barbaric to use them in trench warfare in WWI....
On topic: DH is the best mechanically. While they are all reasonably simple, the designers seemed to want to tweak things a bit as they went and universally those tweaks, while small, have been panned.
In terms of raw power, however, Dark Heresy is the 'lowest level', barring Ascencion
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;428182DH seems to be the less broken one. RT from my experience of reading it is nowhere near complete and DW seems to be broken beyond belief.
They're all broken because they're all 1/3rd of a game.
RPGPundit
=][=nquistitor is the only true answer citizen.*
All others are merely distractions of the great conspirator against the glory of our emperor which understate the efficay of the holy Boltguns and Powered armour of the emperor's chosen sons!
For the cost of those three accursed books and some supplements you can have a couple excellent 54mm white metal warbands and the rules are free from the Adeptus Interwebius.
FOR THE GLORY OF THE EMPEROR!
*In some areas GURPS and Spacemaster Privateers may be acceptable substitutions ask the local agents of the Holy Ecclesiarchy.
Quote from: RPGPundit;428441They're all broken because they're all 1/3rd of a game.
RPGPundit
That's the least critical objection anyone could actually level at these games.
Quote from: RPGPundit;428441They're all broken because they're all 1/3rd of a game.
I don't know, Pundy. I've seen it happen; Scion was broken because it actually was 1/3 of a game (Hero, Demigod, God).
But the three WH40K games strike me as different games, with different power levels, all set in the same universe, and (as far as I can tell) mutually compatible. Or maybe as "campaign guides" for the same game (since, AFAIK, they share system and setting).
That's like saying the 6 WoD games are broken because they're each 1/6 of a game.
Quote from: RPGPundit;428441They're all broken because they're all 1/3rd of a game.
RPGPundit
This is why you don't deserve 40k.
Dark Heresy is "CoC in Spaaace!" and thus, my favorite choice.
However, I also like Savage Worlds + 40k Minis + 40k Setting Fluff and just designing my own campaign. I've done Space Marine and Imperial Guard stuff and it was great fun. This option was especially good with players who really dig the painted figs + terrain option and want to square off against the foes of the wargame, not just cultists.
Dark Heresy's actually a fairly complete game, and growing moreso all the time. Especially with the twist in Blood of Martyrs that they're now including ideas on running non-Inquisitorial teams of operatives and specialists. I'm hoping Only War continues this, but even if it doesn't, you can pretty much run almost any sort of "Ordinary Man 40K" game using DH alone, perhaps supplemented with RT.
Quote from: Blackhand;428663This is why you don't deserve 40k.
Well, fortunately I got the sci-fi game I wanted in the form of Starblazer Adventures. Throw in Legends of Anglerre there, and you might even actually be able to do WH40K RIGHT, not like the stupid fuckers ended up doing it.
Their claim was "40k is just TOO BIG and has too disparate a power level for it to possibly be included in one game; certainly no game in the past has covered all kinds of elements of a genre and included power levels from say, "basic" to "immortal" level, so it just CAN'T BE DONE".
And of course, Starblazers did exactly that for sci-fi, just like D&D and countless other games have always done that for fantasy. Their pathetic "its just too big" excuse was nonsense because they never wanted to make a real full RPG setting; they wanted to create three forge-esque intensely-focused microgames. And they got what they wanted: three piles of crap.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;428710And of course, Starblazers did exactly that for sci-fi, just like D&D and countless other games have always done that for fantasy. Their pathetic "its just too big" excuse was nonsense because they never wanted to make a real full RPG setting; they wanted to create three forge-esque intensely-focused microgames.
RPGPundit
If that is the case than they failed absolutely miserably with the first book, Dark Heresy.
Sure: the default assumption is that you are playing acolytes of an Inquisitor going off to be killed in His name stopping ebil or something...
... but off the top of my head I can not think of a single mechanic anywhere in the actual book that reinforces that point. If you can think of some OTHER reason for a soldier, a thug and a priest to meet in a bar on the sublevel of some hive world to look for treasure, you wouldn't have to make up or ditch any actual part of the book itself.
Most of the expansions are similarly wide open, though yes: There is a focus on Inquisition based play just like in D&D there is a focus on 'dungeon crawling' based play.
Rogue Trader is arguably more focused, what with the rules giving you a ship and a fortune swell enough to buy small planets to start with... but then that pretty much is all it gives you to focus the game play... mechanically.
So, really, your arguement only holds water, mechanically, with the Deathwatch book, as it only holds rules for Space Marines.... though again: If you want to play some OTHER space marine themed game, ignoring the deathwatch, mechanically there is nothing stopping you.
Did they really need to bulk up the books with the basic rule chapters in each case? Not really. But that is, essentially, what they did. Your arguement is specious and focused entirely on your private monomania. Fie upon your head. Or something.
Rogue Trader is, in my opinion, friggin' fantastic. The other two I could live without. Dark Heresy is really all you need to run a good 40K campaign, and if you have even a drop of imagination and creativity, you could easily fill in any missing blanks (such as if someone wanted to play Eldar or whatever). I've run two 40K campaigns using Dark Heresy, and only one was "CoC in Spaaaaaace" (which was awesome); the other was standard dark, gritty sci-fi typical of 40K.
-=Grim=-
If FF started doing a series that allowed you to play aliens of various stripes I might be convinced to pay their outrageous prices.
Of the 3 games available, Dark Heresy is the only one I could remotely reccommend because its the only one that's all that finished.
Rogue Trader might be a decent game in another 2-5 years, but right now its basically a skeleton of a game.
Deathwatch isn't even a skeleton - it's like a picture of what the skeleton might look like 5 years from now. It's also kind of a dull concept (that would be more suited to one-shots IMO) and the rules have more issues than the other games.
Ultimately, I wouldn't reccommend any of them, though.
The FFG games have some cool ideas. The production values are spectacular. But the games themselves are just too lacking.
So much material is left out (years later and we're still missing all kinds of stats for iconic stuff). It's spread throughout so many overpriced books.
And the system itself is mediocre at best. The super high whiff factor. The advancement rules that are not only overcomplicated for no good reason, but require huge amounts of wasted space in the books. The psyker rules that change with every game because they know the previous system was clunky.
The 40K wargame is designed to be fast and fun. Even the older, more detailed editions were fairly fast and fun. For some reason, the RPGs were designed to be slow and clunky.
For the 40K campaign I want to run in the future, I'm designing my own rules that basically merge the wargame rules with Deluxe BRP.
RT intrigued me enough to purchase. seems like a ramped-up, slightly twisted version of traveller (which i love).
DH doesn't appeal--if i want to run "CoC investigations and combat in SPAAACE" then i'll do that. don't need a new ruleset for that.
i don't see the point in DW. base a whole (kinda) rpg on space marines? just play an FPS or the tabletop game, then. too one-dimensional, IMO. and certainly not worth the expensive collector's edition (http://fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=133) treatment, either :jaw-dropping:
Quote from: beeber;428860i don't see the point in DW. base a whole (kinda) rpg on space marines? just play an FPS or the tabletop game, then. too one-dimensional, IMO. and certainly not worth the expensive collector's edition (http://fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=133) treatment, either :jaw-dropping:
Honestly, I think the Space Hulk and Space Crusade boardgames were more interesting and playable than DW.
Or perhaps a Space Marines version of Advanced Heroquest. I know I would have had a lot more fun with that than with DW.
Quote from: RPGPundit;428441They're all broken because they're all 1/3rd of a game.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;428567That's the least critical objection anyone could actually level at these games.
That's the most uninformed opinion anyone could actually have about these games.
You're both wrong. Each one of them is a separate game unto itself (1/1 Game x 3) but they don't represent 1/3 of a setting either, only the tiniest fraction.
Quote from: Spinachcat;428669However, I also like Savage Worlds + 40k Minis + 40k Setting Fluff and just designing my own campaign. I've done Space Marine and Imperial Guard stuff and it was great fun. This option was especially good with players who really dig the painted figs + terrain option and want to square off against the foes of the wargame, not just cultists.
I have to say I'd rather play the game this way than using any of the official rule sets.
Quote from: danbuter;428977I have to say I'd rather play the game this way than using any of the official rule sets.
It's not a bad way to play. I think the Necropolis setting for SW was custom-made for folks with just that idea in mind.
Quote from: GrimJesta;428825... if you have even a drop of imagination and creativity, you could easily fill in any missing blanks (such as if someone wanted to play Eldar or whatever).
Our Deadlands GM has been jonesing to play some DH and is currently working up the stuff for an Eldar campaign... because that's what will bring his wife to the table.
I'll happily play a space elf... but I'm hoping he'll let me play a Zoat.
Dark Heresy is totally the exact kind of game Forge has always tried to create!
:rotfl:
Anyway, I dislike the concept of Deathwatch, because frankly, Space Marines are boring as characters, because they don't have a personality beyond FOR THE EMPEROR and a mandatory chapter quirk. So what they have INSTEAD of a personality is "I'm a viking FOR THE EMPEROR" or "I really, really hate xenos FOR THE EMPEROR".
Deathwatch is a game I want to play on the computer as a FPS, but I wouldn't play it on the tabletop.
Dark Heresy has been great fun - I've wished it was more like Eisenhorn, but I think that's what the Ascension book is for.
Incidentially, what makes you say that Rogue Trader isn't complete? What exactly do you feel it lacks?
Quote from: Blackhand;428962That's the most uninformed opinion anyone could actually have about these games.
You're both wrong. Each one of them is a separate game unto itself (1/1 Game x 3) but they don't represent 1/3 of a setting either, only the tiniest fraction.
How am I wrong? I didn't offer an opinion, I said that, of all the criticisms you could level at these games, that was the least.
I think they could have organised the setting, rpgwise, better than 3 books, but that choice alone doesn't diminish them. There are plenty of other things that do that, such as the total fail in prioritising information relevant to the games themselves. RT STILL doesn't have a spaceships book (though it may well be next).
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;429033How am I wrong? I didn't offer an opinion, I said that, of all the criticisms you could level at these games, that was the least.
I think they could have organised the setting, rpgwise, better than 3 books, but that choice alone doesn't diminish them. There are plenty of other things that do that, such as the total fail in prioritising information relevant to the games themselves. RT STILL doesn't have a spaceships book (though it may well be next).
So do you agree or disagree with the claim that Dark Heresy is actually 1/3 of a game which is actually comprised of Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch?
Because the aforementioned claim is mistaken, wrong and incorrect.
Quote from: Axiomatic;429044So do you agree or disagree with the claim that Dark Heresy is actually 1/3 of a game which is actually comprised of Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch?
Because the aforementioned claim is mistaken, wrong and incorrect.
They are three separate games. Whether they should be is another question.
Quote from: Axiomatic;429020Incidentially, what makes you say that Rogue Trader isn't complete? What exactly do you feel it lacks?
I feel a Rogue Trader game is woefully incomplete unless it at the very least covers 75+% of the material presented in the 40K wargame books (main rules and codexes) and the battlefleet gothic wargame rulebook.
Right now, it covers maybe 5-10%, and that's if you buy all the books for not only RT but DH and DW as well. And this is despite having much higher page counts and higher price tags than those books.
Quote from: Ghost Whistler;429033How am I wrong? I didn't offer an opinion, I said that, of all the criticisms you could level at these games, that was the least.
I think they could have organised the setting, rpgwise, better than 3 books, but that choice alone doesn't diminish them. There are plenty of other things that do that, such as the total fail in prioritising information relevant to the games themselves. RT STILL doesn't have a spaceships book (though it may well be next).
NO, they could not have. Not all settings fit neatly into one book, or even theme. Not every world fits neatly into Pundy's little box of how he thinks things should work.
They aren't 3 parts of one game.
Just because RT doesn't encompass 75% of the published material doesn't mean that it sucks. Most folk here don't even have any idea whats going on in the background, so how could it even begin to catalog 75% of what has been published?
There's a reason we had to wait this long for a 40k rpg. The folk that brought us these three games did very well, and even though they aren't "complete" as you think of them there are quite "complete" from a Warhammer enthusiasts point of view.
They are great games, and thier focus is nescessary. They are totally separate and totally encapsulated, they just tie into the same overarching setting. That's why all three games have different settings.
Are you implying that it's unreasonable that they didn't put every single piece of information ever published in any 40k rulebook in the last 30 years into a single rulebook for Rogue Trader?
That's exactly what I'm implying.
Imperial space is divided in the great Segmentum, each of which is thousands of light years across. There are varying reports of how many sectors there are in each Segmentum (not all are created equally) but the subsectors are roughly 100x100 light year cubes.
That's a fuckload of different shit. If they had ditched the settings of each of the three games and gone totally generic, that might have at least put more crap in there but it would have been totally out of context for normal roleplayers (i.e. non-Warhammerphiles).
I don't want everything ever published for the 40K universe to be part of a single core book.
I do think it's a reasonable expectation that the core book for a 40K game contain at least as much information as, say, the 3rd edition printing of the 40K rules. Or that the space combat rules cover at least all the basics presented in Battlefleet Gothic (which is a rather simple set of rules after all).
I do think it's a reasonable expectation that several years into the lines and a good dozen or more $40+ hardbacks later that the game should be able to at least contain as much information as the basic codexes for the original core factions of Space Marines, Imperial Guards, Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, and Chaos.
I do think it's a reasonable expectation that after having 3 entirely different game lines, there'd be at least one of them where you could play an Eldar or abhuman character if you wanted.
My question is - why is this an unreasonable expectation?
For $90, I can get the full rules for the wargame and lots o' plastic minis.
For another $180, I can get six codexes (SM, IG, E, O, T, CD, CSM).
That's a total of $270.
If I buy every non-adventure book for Dark Heresy, that's already $350 and I have maybe 3-5% of the material from the $270 investment. Add in the books from the other lines gives you maybe another 3-5% and adds another $290, for a total of $640.
What I think they should have done is have had one set of core rules (and preferably, ones that didn't suck unlike what FFG has now) then have codex expansions like for the wargame. Except in this case, the codexes would also be different settings for the games (e.g., Codex: Rogue Trader). Instead, we get a tiny fraction of the material and it is spread everywhere, along with all kinds of redundant information and 3 game lines that aren't quite 100% compatible (for no real reason).
Use the source material, but throw away the crappy mechanics. Should work.
Quote from: jgants;429133*SNIP*
I do think it's a reasonable expectation that after having 3 entirely different game lines, there'd be at least one of them where you could play an Eldar or abhuman character if you wanted.
My question is - why is this an unreasonable expectation?
Because you're asking to play an alien and an abhuman. That won't happen in any core book they could have printed for 40k except under special circumstances, such as being a slave.
Maybe a book for a "campaign setting" for eldar or orks, but not likely. It's supposed to be "humanocentric", and you're supposed to feel all those feelings of doom and helplessness that come with being an Imperial citizen.
It's not space opera.
If you want the material that's in the codexes, buy the codexes. If you want the material that's in Dark Heresy, buy those books instead. If you want it all, buy it all. It's simple really.
When Dark Heresy came out, I used the system and created my own set of rules to run a short campaign with the players running as space marines in a crusade. Nothing wrong with modifying the system, if that's what you really want.
I'm of the opinion that in 40k, alien and abhuman characters should always be on the outside. It used to be a sacred cow that no xenos would ever appear as the main character in any 40k novel, but that's kind of changed in the last few years.
Quote from: Blackhand;429222Because you're asking to play an alien and an abhuman. That won't happen in any core book they could have printed for 40k except under special circumstances, such as being a slave.
Maybe a book for a "campaign setting" for eldar or orks, but not likely. It's supposed to be "humanocentric", and you're supposed to feel all those feelings of doom and helplessness that come with being an Imperial citizen.
The 'supposed to' seems to be ignoring the 'want to'... namely, LOTS of people buying the games have made the same comments, wanting to play the aliens. Not giving them what they want because of some internal company ideology seems... fucking stupid.
QuoteIt's not space opera.
Please explain...
QuoteIf you want the material that's in the codexes, buy the codexes.
90% of the stuff in the codexes are stats for another game... with no bearing on the RPG. It's not ridiculous to think that some version of the fluffy bits would find it's way over to the RPG books. WFRP did a decent job of covering the setting without people having to seek out the wargame bits, which were mostly irrelevant and had whole different emphasis/aesthetic.
QuoteI'm of the opinion that in 40k, alien and abhuman characters should always be on the outside.
That's something that's better carried off by YOU, the player, making the decision not to allow such PCs... rather than the company trying to shove it down everyone's throats despite the collective desire to play such aliens.
Besides... you can play the various races in the wargame... so it makes no fucking sense to not allow for the same in the RPG.
It actually makes a lot of sense.
I don't actually care to try to explain it any more.
Quote from: Blackhand;429222Because you're asking to play an alien and an abhuman. That won't happen in any core book they could have printed for 40k except under special circumstances, such as being a slave.
You are aware that there are rules to play an Ork or a Kroot in RT already, right?
Quote from: Blackhand;429222Maybe a book for a "campaign setting" for eldar or orks, but not likely. It's supposed to be "humanocentric", and you're supposed to feel all those feelings of doom and helplessness that come with being an Imperial citizen.
I think a campaign setting book would be the appropriate place. Why couldn't you run an Eldar pirate campaign, or a campaign about an eldar scout team (such as in, for example, the Eldar Attack board game)?
Why would the RPG have to be human-centric? The wargame isn't. The popular computer game lets you play other factions as an option. Even some spinoff games weren't (Gorkamorka being Ork-centric, for example).
Quote from: Blackhand;429222If you want the material that's in the codexes, buy the codexes. If you want the material that's in Dark Heresy, buy those books instead. If you want it all, buy it all. It's simple really.
When Dark Heresy came out, I used the system and created my own set of rules to run a short campaign with the players running as space marines in a crusade. Nothing wrong with modifying the system, if that's what you really want.
See, I want the official RPG stats. And I don't want to make them all up myself, particularly when there are no conversion rules because the RPG people want more variety than the wargame allows for. Again, what are all these expensive books for if not to do stuff for us?
Quote from: Blackhand;429222I'm of the opinion that in 40k, alien and abhuman characters should always be on the outside. It used to be a sacred cow that no xenos would ever appear as the main character in any 40k novel, but that's kind of changed in the last few years.
Meh, I want a RPG based on the wargames and boardgames. I could care less about the tone or canon-ness of the mediocre at best novels.
Quote from: Simlasa;429229The 'supposed to' seems to be ignoring the 'want to'... namely, LOTS of people buying the games have made the same comments, wanting to play the aliens. Not giving them what they want seems because of some internal company ideology seems... fucking stupid.
Please explain...
90% of the stuff in the codexes are stats for another game... with no bearing on the RPG. It's not ridiculous to think that some version of the fluffy bits would find it's way over to the RPG books. WFRP did a decent job of covering the setting without people having to seek out the wargame bits, which were mostly irrelevant and had whole different emphasis/aesthetic.
That's something that's better carried off by YOU, the player, making the decision not to allow such PCs... rather than the company trying to shove it down everyone's throats despite the collective desire to play such aliens.
Besides... you can play the various races in the wargame... so it makes no fucking sense to not allow for the same in the RPG.
I agree with everything here. The only reason I can think of why FFG/GW wants to stick with this focus is some stupid corporate mentality that it will help push their fiction lines. Which still makes no sense.
Actually: A lot of people care about fidelity to a setting. Its not just a corporate decision but a practical one.
The setting, as written, is largely pan-xenophobic. Aside from the Tau, no one works with anyone else (not even chaos really... when was the last time you saw a canonical chaos ork?)
Thus, the number of fans wanting and willing to play a setting appropriate xenos game has to be balanced against the number of fans who DON"T want to play aliens.
Now: admittedly, including gameable rules for at least the intelligent alien factions would have been smart, allowing for those who didn't care to play without makign it canon that you could play a mixed race party.
Quote from: Spike;429253Actually: A lot of people care about fidelity to a setting. Its not just a corporate decision but a practical one.
That's true enough... but depending on the version of the setting most of the 'good guy' races have worked together... the Squats, Eldar and Orks have all teamed up with the Empire on occasion. The setup doesn't seem all that different than the fantasy version of the same races... they're paranoid and prejudiced but will get along if they have too.
Just throw some Tyranids at them.
FFG's priorities are a bit odd sometimes (The adventure book always gets published before the overflow book), but the books are already jammed full of content. The non-overlapping portions of the three rule systems + most of the material from the codexes, + additional material detailing the various alien races + GM info like antagonists and advice would take up around a thousand pages.
I also think that introducing all of the canon stuff that's been built up over time would have appealed more to fandom than actual players. One of the most common things the people I've played the various 40K rpgs with like is that the setting is big enough that they can make some corner of it their own, instead of drowning under canon material.
It's possible that if they had gone with a different, less crunchy system they might've been able to carve about a hundred pages off the rules, but that's about it for reductions (I think Silhouette or a closer BRP derivative than modded-WFRP might scale well enough to handle the wide variance in power).
Dark Heresy is one of the few systems I play where every non-adventure supplement is worth buying. Each one is jammed with tons of information and additional bits that would be treated in a cursory fashion in a less focused game.
Silhoutte, as much as I like it, isn't real robust within a single scale. Their big claim to fame, as far as I'm concerned is being able to handle within a single rule set humans and vehicles without really having to break them down into minigames.
Quote from: Blackhand;429085NO, they could not have. Not all settings fit neatly into one book, or even theme. Not every world fits neatly into Pundy's little box of how he thinks things should work.
They aren't 3 parts of one game.
Just because RT doesn't encompass 75% of the published material doesn't mean that it sucks. Most folk here don't even have any idea whats going on in the background, so how could it even begin to catalog 75% of what has been published?
I think you aren't reading what I wrote correctly. It isn't I that has a massive issue with the 3 book format (I was much less keen initially). They haven't handled it correctly since the scale between each game is quite diverse yet use the same system.
The original Rogue Trader was a single book. Ok, much has been added to the 40k universe since then, but the RT corebook is hopeless in what it totally fails to cover. Since the game apparently demands a large amount of space, why come up with a rules system that then also demands a large amount of space? As a result there is a ton of content that demands coverage through secondary products which just burdens the poor GM/reader with even more information. I just gave up on it. I can't afford to buy £100 worth of supplementary material to make RT a viable and complete enough experience. Yes, in anticipation of the obvious point, i could make it up myself, but why bother buying the game at all.
As it stands, RT, and DW from what i've seen, just offer an anemic and superficial (and possibly broken) 40k experience. RT seems intended to be rival RT crews fighting each other and nothing else, while DW lacks enough detail on Xenos simultaneously allowing massively overpowered PC's that can't fail at anything FOR THE EMPEROR!
Of all the approaches FFG, a company i hve much time for, have taken with the warhammer license(s) they are choosing what I consider to be absolutely the wrong approach.
Quote from: Axiomatic;429044So do you agree or disagree with the claim that Dark Heresy is actually 1/3 of a game which is actually comprised of Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch?
Because the aforementioned claim is mistaken, wrong and incorrect.
I should clarify that I do not believe that if you add up DH, RT and DW you get a full game, either. They are each one-third of a game that if somehow mashed together (and from what I understand that can't really be done) would make up maybe 2/5ths of a game.
RPGPundit
To really throw a monkeywrench into all of this.....:
Couldn't the whole WARHAMMER 40K setting be done just as easily with a simple mod of either Mongoose TRAVELLER or classic TRAVELLER ?
After all the same career choices or lifepaths are covered in the regular TRAVELLER character creation systems.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Koltar;429310To really throw a monkeywrench into all of this.....:
Couldn't the whole WARHAMMER 40K setting be done just as easily with a simple mod of either Mongoose TRAVELLER or classic TRAVELLER ?
After all the same career choices or lifepaths are covered in the regular TRAVELLER character creation systems.
Yeah. You'd need to hack in some kind of insanity system, IMHO, but that's not too hard.
You could also do it very easily with Dogs in the Vineyard.
Quote from: Thanlis;429337Yeah. You'd need to hack in some kind of insanity system, IMHO, but that's not too hard.
You could also do it very easily with Dogs in the Vineyard.
I would more say that "Warhammer 40k would make for an interesting setting for DitV"* which is, I think, a different assertion. (Imagine conversely 'it would be interesting to play GW's Warhammer Historical "Legends of the Old West" to enact battles against the backdrop of DitV versus "You could do DitV very easily with Legends of the Old West.")
* Or Paranoia - wonder whether RPG or storygame would produce a funnier alpha complex. But then, for me the draw of 40k is mostly that I find it hilarious.
Quote from: Thanlis;429337You could also do it very easily with Dogs in the Vineyard.
I recommend Exalted.
Guys, I was somewhat serious about using TRAVELLER, particularly 'Mongoose' TRAVELLER.
- Ed C.
(EXALTED ?? Everyone knows thats better used with the STAR TREK Universe!!)
Hmmm...not insanity rules, corruption rules. Everyone's nuts already.
I'm sure a complete 40k rpg would fit in one book but it wouldn't be modelled on WFRP which simply isn't a dense or tight enough system to manage it.
GURPS is actually a really good basis for a detailed narrative 40k, as is Spacemaster Privateers.
But if you really want a custom 1 200 pg book 40k rpg you need at least half the book to be art and half of the remainder to be setting. That means about 50 pages of rules. Which is fine. Heck you can even fit in hit locations and criticals under that.
What you can't do is huge laundry lists of careers and special abilities. An aspect warrior and a guardsman might just have to both be fighters or have some of the same skills. Cry me a river.
Quote from: Koltar;429486Guys, I was somewhat serious about using TRAVELLER, particularly 'Mongoose' TRAVELLER.
I figured you were serious; nothing wrong with that. I'm not as familiar with Traveller as I ought to be, but how well does it do with characters who really outmatch regular people physically speaking - Space Marines are basically low-grade superhumans.
Quote from: Koltar;429486(EXALTED ?? Everyone knows thats better used with the STAR TREK Universe!!)
Well, it's not the natural fit that Metal Earth is, but it'll do in a tight spot!
Quote from: Koltar;429486Guys, I was somewhat serious about using TRAVELLER, particularly 'Mongoose' TRAVELLER.
Instead of morphing a relatively straight SF game to 40K I'd maybe start from the fantasy end... maybe with Stormbringer.
It's halfway to being 40K already.
I think nowadays, you'd be far better off combining Starblazer and Anglerre for this. It has all the necessary points covered, and has a more appropriate spread of power levels than traveller.
RPGpundit
So in your "new" RPG book about 40k, how would you go about designing careers? Would you do a skill system only, but then how would you differentiate between the very real caste system that largely decides your role in life and ultimate fate?
Would Space Marines be selectable characters alongside Tech Priests, Adepts and Arbites? Imperial Guard alongside Eldar?
Tell me how. Then we'll talk about Practicality in Publication and Fidelity to Setting.
Quote from: Simlasa;429507Instead of morphing a relatively straight SF game to 40K I'd maybe start from the fantasy end... maybe with Stormbringer.
It's halfway to being 40K already.
Win.
Quote from: Simlasa;429507Instead of morphing a relatively straight SF game to 40K I'd maybe start from the fantasy end... maybe with Stormbringer.
It's halfway to being 40K already.
There's potential there - given the imperium's attitude to how technology works it might be expressed as lawful Virtues as well as anything else. Choose elements from Stormbringer and the BRP gold book?
I always figured the emperor of mankind was inspired by granbretan's Huon in the first place...
Quote from: Blackhand;429609So in your "new" RPG book about 40k, how would you go about designing careers? Would you do a skill system only, but then how would you differentiate between the very real caste system that largely decides your role in life and ultimate fate?
Would Space Marines be selectable characters alongside Tech Priests, Adepts and Arbites? Imperial Guard alongside Eldar?
Tell me how. Then we'll talk about Practicality in Publication and Fidelity to Setting.
While I do like DH etc., I don't think this is impossible to do. I'd use a BRP-variant and simply have people choose their "race" as Space Marine, various xenos, or ordinary humans from various worlds. Space Marines get higher stats but fewer skill points, ordinary humans get tons of skill points but lower stats, and xenos are in-between. Then, PCs each pick a skill package based on their background and spend points as appropriate.
This wouldn't be too hard a conversion because DH is already fairly similar to BRP.
Quote from: Blackhand;429609So in your "new" RPG book about 40k, how would you go about designing careers? Would you do a skill system only, but then how would you differentiate between the very real caste system that largely decides your role in life and ultimate fate?
Would Space Marines be selectable characters alongside Tech Priests, Adepts and Arbites? Imperial Guard alongside Eldar?
Tell me how. Then we'll talk about Practicality in Publication and Fidelity to Setting.
Was this for me?
Basically, I'd go the WFRP route: create a setting that is very similar to but not the same as 40k, and when I say that 40k, I would use the 40k of the original Rogue Trader, the only 40k universe that was playable and made fucking sense.
In terms of the power level issues, again like WFRP: you start out with a set of random careers that are all very beginner level and can work your way up based on what you've started with through advancement trees. I might make them a little more rigid, ie. the "suggested careers" would not be suggested but a closed list of possibilities, but that's it.
RPGPundit
But at that point, your reason for not wanting to play the WH40k rpgs is because you don't actually want to play in the WH40k setting, you want to play in a setting where you can start as a rat-catcher and work your way up to Space Marine-hood.
I think that sort of "from nobody to vastly important person" approach doesn't fit WH40k at all, because it implies a degree of...upward social mobility which does not exist in the setting.
Again, I'm not saying the concept is inherently bad (even though I myself hate that kind of game) but at this point, aren't you complaining that Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch aren't the perfect systems to run a setting which exists only in your head and actually isn't the setting they set out to run?
Quote from: Axiomatic;429786But at that point, your reason for not wanting to play the WH40k rpgs is because you don't actually want to play in the WH40k setting, you want to play in a setting where you can start as a rat-catcher and work your way up to Space Marine-hood.
I think that sort of "from nobody to vastly important person" approach doesn't fit WH40k at all, because it implies a degree of...upward social mobility which does not exist in the setting.
Again, I'm not saying the concept is inherently bad (even though I myself hate that kind of game) but at this point, aren't you complaining that Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch aren't the perfect systems to run a setting which exists only in your head and actually isn't the setting they set out to run?
Yes. I've been saying this.
For Pundit, how many books do you think it would take to get all the material ready for the system you're talking about?
Where did he say you'd work your way up to playing a space marine?
You could rise up the ranks of a hive-gang... A cult... Pirate crew... Do a Traveller-esque trading/smuggling career... Loads more to the setting than just the military and bureaucratic stuff.
Quote from: Simlasa;429811Where did he say you'd work your way up to playing a space marine?
You could rise up the ranks of a hive-gang... A cult... Pirate crew... Do a Traveller-esque trading/smuggling career... Loads more to the setting than just the military and bureaucratic stuff.
You can do all that stuff with the game as it's published.
I know because we've been doing it all this time.
To be fair there isn't much social mobility in the WFB Empire either. The PCs are exceptional people.
But I admit the 40K setting has less options for advancement. There is a character Ragnar Blackmane meets who is a scribe of the 14th teir. He's from 14 generations of scribes of the 14th teir. Ragnar gets him promoted to the 8th teir and he freaks out and goes mad.
Quote from: Blackhand;429840You can do all that stuff with the game as it's published.
I know because we've been doing it all this time.
I'm just responding to the criticism that Pundit wants to do some sort of 'non-40K' thing.
Social mobility within the Imperial ranks... nobility... social classes might be stratified and rigid... but it's hardly a monoculture. It such a huge place that there are surely areas where a person CAN do the zero-to-hero thing if they wanted, rise up from the muck to rule a planet... at least they'll seem like the hero until the marines/inquisition/tyranids show up (though that might never happen).
I seem to remember there was a Marine Chapter mentioned once that recruited exclusivly from criminals and vagrants.
So yeah there is mobility.
Quote from: Ian Warner;429848I seem to remember there was a Marine Chapter mentioned once that recruited exclusivly from criminals and vagrants.
So yeah there is mobility.
What chapter is that?
Quote from: Axiomatic;429786But at that point, your reason for not wanting to play the WH40k rpgs is because you don't actually want to play in the WH40k setting, you want to play in a setting where you can start as a rat-catcher and work your way up to Space Marine-hood.
I think that sort of "from nobody to vastly important person" approach doesn't fit WH40k at all, because it implies a degree of...upward social mobility which does not exist in the setting.
Note that I said that I might make the career paths more rigid; but ignoring that for a moment: what specifically in the WH fantasy battles gives the impression that a lowly ratcatcher could become a Knight Panther? NOTHING, that's what.
The fact that in a fucking wargame there aren't means accommodating to the necessities of a decent RPG is not a surprise, that's why you make the world similar but not the same, in exactly the same way WFRP did with the world of WFB. The two worlds are NOT the same, they just look very similar to one another.
RPGPundit
Note: Depending on which book/author space marines do recruit criminals and hive scum and so forth, but they tend to do it 'very young'. Under ten years old in some cases.
Of course other books have them recruiting 'very young' adults... and while I hate to us C.S. Goto as a source for anything, his Dawn of War novels had a very detailed description of the conversion process being applied to a 'very young' guardsman the Blood Ravens had recruited. Due to his 'advanced age' for selection and/or the speed with which they brought him over he suffered 'minor' mutations (tentacles in the shape of hands) as a result.
So despite being pretty familiar with 'canon' regarding this, there is a wide range of ages that are considered 'too old' to 'social mobile' into Space Marines.
I rather think the ten year olds are the more acceptable cases to the creators of the universe and older ages are drift from people not paying attention (since trials by grande melee to the death or other lethal culling are very common... maybe some people get squeamish thinking of children butchering each other to get 'promoted' to godhood and mentally edit the age upwards to more acceptable territory).
What the pundit is asking for doesn't actually make sense. The Setting presented in the original Rogue Trader doesn't 'work' or 'make sense' in any particular fashion. Its a bunch of artwork and largely unconnected 'stuff' thrown together, roughly linked thematically. It isn't even clearly an RPG, looking an awful lot like a Wargame.
Re: Recruitment ages
So far I know there is nothing that says outright that the conversion process for all chapters is identical. In fact, we know it isn't because the geneseed of some has drifted enough that differences have come in, certain organs not forming and other minor changes happening only to specific chapters (fangs, black skin, etc.). Only the end products have to be more or less similar to one another.
Different chapters, especially from different foundings & geneseed lines may therefore have radically different conversion processes, some of which do work best in adult individuals, and some of which require children or adolescents. First Founding chapters probably have the most flexible process because it dates back to before the Heresy, whereas later foundings probably use simplified variants of it.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;429646While I do like DH etc., I don't think this is impossible to do. I'd use a BRP-variant and simply have people choose their "race" as Space Marine, various xenos, or ordinary humans from various worlds. Space Marines get higher stats but fewer skill points, ordinary humans get tons of skill points but lower stats, and xenos are in-between. Then, PCs each pick a skill package based on their background and spend points as appropriate.
This wouldn't be too hard a conversion because DH is already fairly similar to BRP.
Actually, I'm giving Diaspora a proper read-through, finally, and it could probably do 40K pretty well.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;429969Re: Recruitment ages
So far I know there is nothing that says outright that the conversion process for all chapters is identical. In fact, we know it isn't because the geneseed of some has drifted enough that differences have come in, certain organs not forming and other minor changes happening only to specific chapters (fangs, black skin, etc.). Only the end products have to be more or less similar to one another.
Different chapters, especially from different foundings & geneseed lines may therefore have radically different conversion processes, some of which do work best in adult individuals, and some of which require children or adolescents. First Founding chapters probably have the most flexible process because it dates back to before the Heresy, whereas later foundings probably use simplified variants of it.
Well, I seem to recall that the original legions, at least prior to the recovery of the Primarchs were actually vat grown entirely.
But given that we are discussing genetic alteration, I would imagine that there is a set range of appropriate ages that can't be deviated from... and spanning pre-pubescent to adult is verboten...to wild a time, pick one side or the other. This is, after all, the canon reason for all space marines to be Male as well.
Drift in geneseed and loss of technique would actually make it MORE important to keep the right age grouping, after all at one time all chapters used the same basic techniques and materials, with the only difference the genetic variation of the original primarchs and the original recruitment populations (planetary, not age related...).
Of course, if you buy the scene in teh Horus Heresy novels, the primarch's were made using more warp sorcery than genetic science, and thus the production of a space marine is potentially at least as much a process of witchcraft as science as well....
Quote from: Blackhand;429946What chapter is that?
I don't know. I don't think they ever got a full write up just a mention in a general article about Space Marine Recruitment (back when GW wrote background in their magazine rather than just adverts.) Iron Scars rings a bell but they might be just two words I randomly put together to make a cool sounding Marine Chapter.
Oh and a fun little game. You can create a concept for a Space Marine Chapter by putting the words "IN SPACE" at the end of any general concept. Example.
Space Wolves: Piss head Vikings IN SPACE!
Dark Angels: Keepers of dark secrets IN SPACE!
Relictors: Keepers of darker secrets IN SPACE!
Blood Angels: Crazy vampires IN SPACE!
Black Templars: The Knights Templar IN SPACE!
White Scars: Heavy Metal Bikers IN SPACE!
Quote from: Ian Warner;429993White Scars: Heavy Metal Bikers IN SPACE!
Er... Mongols, IN SPACE!
Also: We have no time for your silly unsupported claims. Get thee back here with proper citations, we've got canonistas in attendance and that fluffy feel good "I sorta think maybe I saw it..." shit don't fly.
Just sayin'...;)
Quote from: Spike;429992Well, I seem to recall that the original legions, at least prior to the recovery of the Primarchs were actually vat grown entirely.
Probably, but the first Dark Angels (the first true legion) were a mix of adults and children. The adults couldn't be fully converted at the time, but had extensive enough modification that they were functionally identical. A number of other chapters include bits about the warriors of a Primarch's homeworld joining his legion, though only the DA bit specifically notes they were of mixed ages.
Oh sure, once each primarch was found, their loyal followers were 'uplifted' to Space Marine status, which indicates that at least the Emperor and the Grand Crusade Era Imperium at least had the know-how to modify adults. We can extrapolate from there that chapters could very well have preserved that lore, either exclusively (thus losing the "preferred" method of augmenting children) or in addition too whatever the default is.
OF course, to a space marine of several centuries of age, even a man of 50 is 'young'...
Quote from: Ian Warner;429993I don't know. I don't think they ever got a full write up just a mention in a general article about Space Marine Recruitment (back when GW wrote background in their magazine rather than just adverts.)
I've got boxes of old White Dwarf. Lots of white magazine boxes, and each issue is in a protective sleeve, complete with backboard. It's the kind of thing that's generally reserved for comics.
Just saying.