Quote from: Axiomatic;429020Incidentially, what makes you say that Rogue Trader isn't complete? What exactly do you feel it lacks?

I feel a Rogue Trader game is woefully incomplete unless it at the very least covers 75+% of the material presented in the 40K wargame books (main rules and codexes) and the battlefleet gothic wargame rulebook.

Right now, it covers maybe 5-10%, and that's if you buy all the books for not only RT but DH and DW as well.  And this is despite having much higher page counts and higher price tags than those books.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;429033How am I wrong? I didn't offer an opinion, I said that, of all the criticisms you could level at these games, that was the least.

I think they could have organised the setting, rpgwise, better than 3 books, but that choice alone doesn't diminish them. There are plenty of other things that do that, such as the total fail in prioritising information relevant to the games themselves. RT STILL doesn't have a spaceships book (though it may well be next).

NO, they could not have.  Not all settings fit neatly into one book, or even theme.  Not every world fits neatly into Pundy's little box of how he thinks things should work.

They aren't 3 parts of one game.

Just because RT doesn't encompass 75% of the published material doesn't mean that it sucks.  Most folk here don't even have any idea whats going on in the background, so how could it even begin to catalog 75% of what has been published?

There's a reason we had to wait this long for a 40k rpg.  The folk that brought us these three games did very well, and even though they aren't "complete" as you think of them there are quite "complete" from a Warhammer enthusiasts point of view.

They are great games, and thier focus is nescessary.  They are totally separate and totally encapsulated, they just tie into the same overarching setting.  That's why all three games have different settings.

Are you implying that it's unreasonable that they didn't put every single piece of information ever published in any 40k rulebook in the last 30 years into a single rulebook for Rogue Trader?

That's exactly what I'm implying.

Imperial space is divided in the great Segmentum, each of which is thousands of light years across.  There are varying reports of how many sectors there are in each Segmentum (not all are created equally) but the subsectors are roughly 100x100 light year cubes.

That's a fuckload of different shit.  If they had ditched the settings of each of the three games and gone totally generic, that might have at least put more crap in there but it would have been totally out of context for normal roleplayers (i.e. non-Warhammerphiles).

I don't want everything ever published for the 40K universe to be part of a single core book.

I do think it's a reasonable expectation that the core book for a 40K game contain at least as much information as, say, the 3rd edition printing of the 40K rules.  Or that the space combat rules cover at least all the basics presented in Battlefleet Gothic (which is a rather simple set of rules after all).

I do think it's a reasonable expectation that several years into the lines and a good dozen or more $40+ hardbacks later that the game should be able to at least contain as much information as the basic codexes for the original core factions of Space Marines, Imperial Guards, Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, and Chaos.

I do think it's a reasonable expectation that after having 3 entirely different game lines, there'd be at least one of them where you could play an Eldar or abhuman character if you wanted.


My question is - why is this an unreasonable expectation?

For $90, I can get the full rules for the wargame and lots o' plastic minis.
For another $180, I can get six codexes (SM, IG, E, O, T, CD, CSM).
That's a total of $270.

If I buy every non-adventure book for Dark Heresy, that's already $350 and I have maybe 3-5% of the material from the $270 investment.  Add in the books from the other lines gives you maybe another 3-5% and adds another $290, for a total of $640.


What I think they should have done is have had one set of core rules (and preferably, ones that didn't suck unlike what FFG has now) then have codex expansions like for the wargame.  Except in this case, the codexes would also be different settings for the games (e.g., Codex: Rogue Trader).  Instead, we get a tiny fraction of the material and it is spread everywhere, along with all kinds of redundant information and 3 game lines that aren't quite 100% compatible (for no real reason).

Use the source material, but throw away the crappy mechanics. Should work.

Quote from: jgants;429133*SNIP*

I do think it's a reasonable expectation that after having 3 entirely different game lines, there'd be at least one of them where you could play an Eldar or abhuman character if you wanted.


My question is - why is this an unreasonable expectation?

Because you're asking to play an alien and an abhuman.  That won't happen in any core book they could have printed for 40k except under special circumstances, such as being a slave.

Maybe a book for a "campaign setting" for eldar or orks, but not likely.  It's supposed to be "humanocentric", and you're supposed to feel all those feelings of doom and helplessness that come with being an Imperial citizen.

It's not space opera.

If you want the material that's in the codexes, buy the codexes.  If you want the material that's in Dark Heresy, buy those books instead.  If you want it all, buy it all.  It's simple really.

When Dark Heresy came out, I used the system and created my own set of rules to run a short campaign with the players running as space marines in a crusade.  Nothing wrong with modifying the system, if that's what you really want.  

I'm of the opinion that in 40k, alien and abhuman characters should always be on the outside.  It used to be a sacred cow that no xenos would ever appear as the main character in any 40k novel, but that's kind of changed in the last few years.

Quote from: Blackhand;429222Because you're asking to play an alien and an abhuman.  That won't happen in any core book they could have printed for 40k except under special circumstances, such as being a slave.

Maybe a book for a "campaign setting" for eldar or orks, but not likely.  It's supposed to be "humanocentric", and you're supposed to feel all those feelings of doom and helplessness that come with being an Imperial citizen.

The 'supposed to' seems to be ignoring the 'want to'... namely, LOTS of people buying the games have made the same comments, wanting to play the aliens. Not giving them what they want because of some internal company ideology seems... fucking stupid.  

QuoteIt's not space opera.

Please explain...

QuoteIf you want the material that's in the codexes, buy the codexes.

90% of the stuff in the codexes are stats for another game... with no bearing on the RPG. It's not ridiculous to think that some version of the fluffy bits would find it's way over to the RPG books. WFRP did a decent job of covering the setting without people having to seek out the wargame bits, which were mostly irrelevant and had whole different emphasis/aesthetic.
 

QuoteI'm of the opinion that in 40k, alien and abhuman characters should always be on the outside.

That's something that's better carried off by YOU, the player, making the decision not to allow such PCs... rather than the company trying to shove it down everyone's throats despite the collective desire to play such aliens.
Besides... you can play the various races in the wargame... so it makes no fucking sense to not allow for the same in the RPG.

It actually makes a lot of sense.

I don't actually care to try to explain it any more.

Quote from: Blackhand;429222Because you're asking to play an alien and an abhuman.  That won't happen in any core book they could have printed for 40k except under special circumstances, such as being a slave.

You are aware that there are rules to play an Ork or a Kroot in RT already, right?

Quote from: Blackhand;429222Maybe a book for a "campaign setting" for eldar or orks, but not likely.  It's supposed to be "humanocentric", and you're supposed to feel all those feelings of doom and helplessness that come with being an Imperial citizen.

I think a campaign setting book would be the appropriate place.  Why couldn't you run an Eldar pirate campaign, or a campaign about an eldar scout team (such as in, for example, the Eldar Attack board game)?

Why would the RPG have to be human-centric?  The wargame isn't.  The popular computer game lets you play other factions as an option.  Even some spinoff games weren't (Gorkamorka being Ork-centric, for example).

Quote from: Blackhand;429222If you want the material that's in the codexes, buy the codexes.  If you want the material that's in Dark Heresy, buy those books instead.  If you want it all, buy it all.  It's simple really.

When Dark Heresy came out, I used the system and created my own set of rules to run a short campaign with the players running as space marines in a crusade.  Nothing wrong with modifying the system, if that's what you really want.

See, I want the official RPG stats.  And I don't want to make them all up myself, particularly when there are no conversion rules because the RPG people want more variety than the wargame allows for.  Again, what are all these expensive books for if not to do stuff for us?

Quote from: Blackhand;429222I'm of the opinion that in 40k, alien and abhuman characters should always be on the outside.  It used to be a sacred cow that no xenos would ever appear as the main character in any 40k novel, but that's kind of changed in the last few years.

Meh, I want a RPG based on the wargames and boardgames.  I could care less about the tone or canon-ness of the mediocre at best novels.

Quote from: Simlasa;429229The 'supposed to' seems to be ignoring the 'want to'... namely, LOTS of people buying the games have made the same comments, wanting to play the aliens. Not giving them what they want seems because of some internal company ideology seems... fucking stupid.  

Please explain...

90% of the stuff in the codexes are stats for another game... with no bearing on the RPG. It's not ridiculous to think that some version of the fluffy bits would find it's way over to the RPG books. WFRP did a decent job of covering the setting without people having to seek out the wargame bits, which were mostly irrelevant and had whole different emphasis/aesthetic.
 

That's something that's better carried off by YOU, the player, making the decision not to allow such PCs... rather than the company trying to shove it down everyone's throats despite the collective desire to play such aliens.
Besides... you can play the various races in the wargame... so it makes no fucking sense to not allow for the same in the RPG.

I agree with everything here.  The only reason I can think of why FFG/GW wants to stick with this focus is some stupid corporate mentality that it will help push their fiction lines.  Which still makes no sense.

Actually: A lot of people care about fidelity to a setting. Its not just a corporate decision but a practical one.

The setting, as written, is largely pan-xenophobic.  Aside from the Tau, no one works with anyone else (not even chaos really... when was the last time you saw a canonical chaos ork?)

Thus, the number of fans wanting and willing to play a setting appropriate xenos game has to be balanced against the number of fans who DON"T want to play aliens.

Now: admittedly, including gameable rules for at least the intelligent alien factions would have been smart, allowing for those who didn't care to play without makign it canon that you could play a mixed race party.

Quote from: Spike;429253Actually: A lot of people care about fidelity to a setting. Its not just a corporate decision but a practical one.

That's true enough... but depending on the version of the setting most of the 'good guy' races have worked together... the Squats, Eldar and Orks have all teamed up with the Empire on occasion. The setup doesn't seem all that different than the fantasy version of the same races... they're paranoid and prejudiced but will get along if they have too.
Just throw some Tyranids at them.

FFG's priorities are a bit odd sometimes (The adventure book always gets published before the overflow book), but the books are already jammed full of content. The non-overlapping portions of the three rule systems + most of the material from the codexes, + additional material detailing the various alien races + GM info like antagonists and advice would take up around a thousand pages.

I also think that introducing all of the canon stuff that's been built up over time would have appealed more to fandom than actual players. One of the most common things the people I've played the various 40K rpgs with like is that the setting is big enough that they can make some corner of it their own, instead of drowning under canon material.

It's possible that if they had gone with a different, less crunchy system they might've been able to carve about a hundred pages off the rules, but that's about it for reductions (I think Silhouette or a closer BRP derivative than modded-WFRP might scale well enough to handle the wide variance in power).

Dark Heresy is one of the few systems I play where every non-adventure supplement is worth buying. Each one is jammed with tons of information and additional bits that would be treated in a cursory fashion in a less focused game.

Silhoutte, as much as I like it, isn't real robust within a single scale.  Their big claim to fame, as far as I'm concerned is being able to handle within a single rule set humans and vehicles without really having to break them down into minigames.

Quote from: Blackhand;429085NO, they could not have.  Not all settings fit neatly into one book, or even theme.  Not every world fits neatly into Pundy's little box of how he thinks things should work.

They aren't 3 parts of one game.

Just because RT doesn't encompass 75% of the published material doesn't mean that it sucks.  Most folk here don't even have any idea whats going on in the background, so how could it even begin to catalog 75% of what has been published?

I think you aren't reading what I wrote correctly. It isn't I that has a massive issue with the 3 book format (I was much less keen initially). They haven't handled it correctly since the scale between each game is quite diverse yet use the same system.

The original Rogue Trader was a single book. Ok, much has been added to the 40k universe since then, but the RT corebook is hopeless in what it totally fails to cover. Since the game apparently demands a large amount of space, why come up with a rules system that then also demands a large amount of space? As a result there is a ton of content that demands coverage through secondary products which just burdens the poor GM/reader with even more information. I just gave up on it. I can't afford to buy £100 worth of supplementary material to make RT a viable and complete enough experience. Yes, in anticipation of the obvious point, i could make it up myself, but why bother buying the game at all.

As it stands, RT, and DW from what i've seen, just offer an anemic and superficial (and possibly broken) 40k experience. RT seems intended to be rival RT crews fighting each other and nothing else, while DW lacks enough detail on Xenos simultaneously allowing massively overpowered PC's that can't fail at anything FOR THE EMPEROR!

Of all the approaches FFG, a company i hve much time for, have taken with the warhammer license(s) they are choosing what I consider to be absolutely the wrong approach.