Hmm...I can't call seeing WFRP2 books at my local B&N, Borders, or the ones further afield here in Indy.  That doesn't mean they aren't there, I suppose.  Palladium Books are also supposed to be out there, and I've only seen one lonely Rifts book, sitting in a Borders (and not even in the right section at that)

I'd like to think the 40k RPG(s) will bring new gamers, but I just don't know.  I really think a lot of any RPG's success depend on what sort of demos and publicity they're able to whip up.  In our area, we've had new gamers brought in by HEX and Palladium.  The linking factor?  Myself and the HEX guy run demos, one-shots, and campaigns for those games.

I just saw 3 maybe 4 Palladium books at a Barnes and Noble, what, Friday? Along with it were two copies of Stormbringer (5th?), WFRP, GURPS 4th and even HellBoy (Powered by GURPS). There was some other stuff too, Exalted and nWOD.

Granted it was the most I've ever seen but every big chain bookstore I've been in locally does at least have one other game. I think most of them have Exalted and nWOD stuff. I don't remember one of them NOT having GURPS (both characters and campaigns).

Monday I'll stop by a store or two and get some pictures. (does the attachment button work?)

Quote from: darI just saw 3 maybe 4 Palladium books at a Barnes and Noble, what, Friday? Along with it were two copies of Stormbringer (5th?), WFRP, GURPS 4th and even HellBoy (Powered by GURPS). There was some other stuff too, Exalted and nWOD.

Granted it was the most I've ever seen but every big chain bookstore I've been in locally does at least have one other game. I think most of them have Exalted and nWOD stuff. I don't remember one of them NOT having GURPS (both characters and campaigns).

Monday I'll stop by a store or two and get some pictures. (does the attachment button work?)

That's fantastic!  Palladium was supposed to be making a big push for bookstore distro, and I'm happy to hear about the other in there as well.  Hopefully, the bookstores here will get aboard soon.

Quote from: J ArcaneShow me pictures.

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Actually I have seen at least one WHFRP book in the three major bookstores in my area.

But so what? They could sell even more of the RPG books if they pushed it through their local GW stores. But they don't.

And it really is just one or two books amidst a sea of 3.5 and nWoD material.

 The GW stores I've been in my area have a strong "it's NOT roleplaying" vibe with the employees.

Why they don't push the RPG in the GW stores continues to mistify me.

They carry the minis game. They carry the fiction & setting fluff material. No WHFRP rpg.  What???

I'm sure there's some logic behind the idea of not pushing the rpg, but I'm damned if I know what it is.


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QuoteI'm sure there's some logic behind the idea of not pushing the rpg, but I'm damned if I know what it is.

It's the "one rulebook is all you need" thing.

Roleplayers don't need miniatures.  Roleplayers don't need more than a corebook.  Rolepalyers don't need paints, or glue, or tools.  They do need dice, but the WFRP doesn't require nearly the fistfulls of dice that the wargames do.  

Basically, they aren't cash cows the way minature gamers are.  A single army for Warhammer can get into the thousand dollar range, between the ever escalating minatures cost, paints, tools, glue, and rulebooks.  And that's from one player.

There's no easy way of milking roleplayers for insane amounts of cash the way they can with miniatures, so they don't care about RPGs.

Quote from: grubmanWell, I'll give you my humble opinion (which I know you don't personally have much respect for).  I don't think it will have very much success as a RPG (by that, I mean becoming a major power in the RPG industry), despite the fact that it seems like it will.

What the hell?  I have never said I do not respect your opinion.  I may agree with you on certain things (and I expect vise versa) but I never said I do not respect your opinion

Quote from: grubmanThe WFRP (v2) had very little appeal to WFB fans as a whole.  The people who really picked up on the RPG were mostly those die-hards who had been fans already (of WFRP v1) for decades.  A few hardcore WFB fans have purchased choice books simply for the setting material for expanding their battles campaigns, but I have seen very little crossover (as a one time serious fan of both games, a regular competitor in Rogue trader tournaments, and also a WFRP 1st ed GM).  Most WFB and 40K players simply have no interest in RPGs.  Miniature gaming is really an entirely different hobby, and crossover isn't as natural as some may think (hell, look at how many RPGers adamantly detest using minis in their RPGs.)

In fact, I think 40 K will have less appeal (than WFRP), since the battles gamers seem to be younger than the fantasy battles players.  Thus, generally less interest in the setting and fluff than just fighting out mini battles.  40K doesn't have the original fan base that the fantasy game already had, and 40K just isn't going to have the opportunities for solid fundamental adventures like fantasy does.

So yes, I think it will bring in a few mini players, but overall, not many.  40K will most likely appeal to preexisting RPG players who have always thought that 40K looked cool...but they don't play mini games.

Yes, I can see what your saying.   On top of that what I read in that article about GW's problem and what I have heard others say it looks as if GW is going to do everything in their power to make sure it's not a success.

Bringing out a licensed game is a gamble and it doesn't always pay off.  I agree with your feeling that it will bring in a few but not many 40k miniature players

Quote from: GMSkarka....and yet, it's sitting in the RPG sections of Borders, Waldenbooks, Hastings, B. Dalton, Virgin Megastore, etc. etc., which outnumber the GW stores worldwide by a considerable sum.

Sorry, but you're really stretching.

none of those shops that exist here sell any rpg's. Virgin dropped its gaming section about a decade ago. Ive seen WFRP2 in one shops once (Waterstones). A secyion just off the fantasy dept which never saw much love.

QuoteBut so what? They could sell even more of the RPG books if they pushed it through their local GW stores. But they don't.

If GW wanted to, they could have copies of WFRP in every FLGS that sells any Warhammer products.

They are masters at bullying their retailers into meeting whatever demand they require.  Minimum orders, forced stock requirements, minimum event and promotion requirements, terrible margins and stocking fees, all kinds of things all with the simple threat of "If you don't, we pull all your stock and you don't sell GW products anymore".

It's worked for ages now, and by comparison with all the other shit they pull, having a few copys of one damn book on the shelf is a pretty small order.  And with their own stores, they don't even have to go that far, they control the stock, they control the storefront, what gets promoted, everything.  

GW just doesn't give a shit.

From my time lurking in game stores and knowing retailers, i'd have to agree.

Quote from: Blue DevilWhat the hell?  I have never said I do not respect your opinion.  I may agree with you on certain things (and I expect vise versa) but I never said I do not respect your opinion

Just seems like we've been butting heads a bit...on all the different forums we both seem to frequent.  Perhaps I'm just moody lately, I was just starting to get the impression you thought I was a complete nut case. :haw:

Quote from: J ArcaneThere's no easy way of milking roleplayers for insane amounts of cash the way they can with miniatures, so they don't care about RPGs.

Furthermore, if a gamer has, let's say, 15 hours per week to spend doing gaming stuff, every hour spent playing WFRP or 40KRP is an hour not spent painting minis. I can see how RPGs could be considered not only unprofitable in themselves, but potentially also a distraction - a threat to the profitability of the wargames.

My experience says otherwise, having been introduced to WFB through WFRP. But even if GW views WFRP/40KRP as potential 'gateway games', then their decision not to promote them in their stores is still sensible. People don't generally walk into a GW store unless they're already interested in the minis.

I probably shouldn't chime in with this, but, I feel obligated to do this every time there are a lot of anti-GW comments going around on a thread.

I don't play Warhammer anymore (the reasons are burn-out, and the dissolving of my group), but not long ago I dedicated almost an entire decade to playing Warhammer mini games almost exclusively.  When you are a fan of the game and actively playing it GW is a great company and their products are first rate.  They really make their fans happy, and the conception that non-Warhammer players have of overpriced miniatures, and uncaring company, and getting screwed when new editions/minis come out are simply unfounded.

To be honest, I've never found serious Warhammer fans complaining about any of this, it's usually those who are on the outside looking in at something they can't afford or don't have the motivation to get serious about.

Warhammer, or any miniature wargame, takes a certain kind of hobbiest.  The sooner those who aren't that type realize it, the sooner they will stop bitching about GW and accept the fact that they are a wonderful company to the people who play/buy their games.  Trust me, GW cares about thier customers.

Quote from: grubmanWarhammer, or any miniature wargame, takes a certain kind of hobbiest.  The sooner those who aren't that type realize it, the sooner they will stop bitching about GW and accept the fact that they are a wonderful company to the people who play/buy their games.  Trust me, GW cares about thier customers.

Yet even the biggest GW supporters will acknowledge that their marketing model is geared towards attracting players to the minis games via their other properties, and not vise versa. The WFRP books contain ads in the back for Warhammer, but I bet we'll never see WFRP ads in the back of WFB books. GW is a business with a great IP and quality products, but they also have bottom lines to meet, plain and simple.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeYet even the biggest GW supporters will acknowledge that their marketing model is geared towards attracting players to the minis games via their other properties, and not vise versa. The WFRP books contain ads in the back for Warhammer, but I bet we'll never see WFRP ads in the back of WFB books. GW is a business with a great IP and quality products, but they also have bottom lines to meet, plain and simple.

True, because RPGs aren't their business.  One has to remember, the WFRP game is simply a licensed out byproduct of their mini game, produced, sold, and played by people who generally don't give a rats ass about the mini game...why should they care much about it?

Does the Ford Motor Company really care how plastic models of their cars are selling in hobby stores?  No, they sell cars.

The really sad thing to me is that 40K was originally (back in 1st ed/ Rogue Trader) a kind of RPG/wargame hybrid.

I think they had a lot more imagination and were a lot more interesting in those days.  Bunches of psyker powers.  All kinds of wacky units.  Special rules for the Ork army for equipment breaking down, etc.  Rules for random alien creature encounters.  Squats.

2nd edition moved towards a strict wargame feel, but at least you still had a lot of options.  I played it a little in high school (eventually I moved to the Space Marines - later renamed Epic - game because it was cheaper to build armies for).

I took a glance at the 4th ed "rulebook" the other day.  There's, what, maybe 20 pages of rules crammed into the 400 page book.  No list of weapons.  No basic army lists to compare the different forces without having to buy the Codex for each.  It's basically just a big catalog.

Even the codexes are dull.  Psykers get what, one power now?  And each army only seems to have one or two options for units.

What I would like to see for a 40K RPG is something that takes the old Rogue Trader book, translates it a little more to a RPG, and updates it with the latest armies and stuff.

Unfortunately, GW doesn't seem to want to even acknowledge the existance of the old Rogue Trader book, so that probably won't happen.