I wanted to like it - I really did.
Except the more I find out about the background universe the less and less appealing it becomes.
My other big problem??
The miniatures are too stuck in their universe.
At least with REAPER's line of minis for their WARLORD battle game the figs are generic just enough that you can still use them in a Dungeons & Dragons game.
The WARHAMMER 40K figs are too nidentifiably part of That Universe. I can't look at them and say "Yeah that might be a guy in the TRAVELLER universe.
Who are the "Good Guys" in the 40K universe??
So far I haven't found anybody to root for in that setting. Its much easier to stick with my GURPS:TRAVELLER thing.
I've been tempted - wwith my styore discount and all. Right now I'm more interested in some oif the terrain thats actually at affordable prices - at least that i can use with any set of rules.
- Ed C.
If anyone is wondering - YES, I have read up on the background universe. Through webpages like this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000
Where are the women in that universe ?
Where are the parties?
Whats there to even party about ?
Where is the Freedom?
Freedom fighters?
I know there is an RPG due later this year set in that universe....but that whole scene just feels depressing. It reminds me a lot of the universe of LEXX that was in the pilot 2 hour movie "I Worship His Shadow" . (Also known as "Tales from a Paralell Universe").
At least in that thing we saw that there were some freedom fighters or rebels being led by the character that Barry Bostwick played.
- Ed C.
It's not for you dude, every point you're not digging about WH40k is the whole damn point of the setting.
In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. 'Nuff Said.
Quote from: JamesVIt's not for you dude, every point you're not digging about WH40k is the whole damn point of the setting.
In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. 'Nuff Said.
So what would be the "Anti-WARHAMMER40K" setting?
Not TRAVELLER - thats gotthe 3rd Imperium as its main human political group.
Hate to think it would be the Feceration of the TREK universe.
- Ed C.
yeah, it's "kill shit and take their stuff" with out the latter part of the phrase.
that said, the mysterious research station in my traveller adventure will open a temporary portal to 40k-land. out pops a bunch of chaos marines. fun is had by all! :D
(late posting d'oh!)
i'd think ST:NG's federation is totally the anti-40k. "talk to things and share their stuff" there.
Quote from: JamesVIn the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.
And pretty much no women.
Actually, back in the day when I used to play it, there were, like,
two battle-nun models. Not that they were ever available (or, at least, not so that anyone would notice).
!i!
(P.S. Koltar, if the idea of the minis appeals to you, but the
WH40K universe doesn't, there are other mini games out there. Just not as many people playing them.)
Quote from: beeber(late posting d'oh!)
i'd think ST:NG's Federation is totally the anti-40k. "talk to things and share their stuff" there.
.....and sometimes have sex with them - if you're guys like Riker or Kirk.
Or Klingons. Klingons always seemed to get laid more often than the Starfleet people. Except maybe Dax - but she was practically a party Klingon by attitude.
- Ed C.
Quote from: beeberi'd think ST:NG's federation is totally the anti-40k. "talk to things and share their stuff" there.
I'd agree with that. 40k is dark, no I mean it,
DARK. The Federation setting from NG is so shiny and clean the Enterprise has no bathrooms. :)
Traveller sits neatly in the middle.
just had a nice dark thought--
vortex grenade (they still have those in 40K?) blows up next to the enterprise warp core--how big a bang would that be?
what stats should i use for bolters in traveller (MT)? ARL's? or would they be closer to RAM auto GL's?
Quote from: beeberwhat stats should i use for bolters in traveller (MT)? ARL's? or would they be closer to RAM auto GL's?
Aw, crap. There was a gun from the pages of the
JTAS -- issue 10, if I recall correctly. Like a combat rifle that fired jet-rifled rounds. I'll look it up tonight for you.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaAw, crap. There was a gun from the pages of the JTAS -- issue 10, if I recall correctly. Like a combat rifle that fired jet-rifled rounds. I'll look it up tonight for you.
!i!
i think that's the ARL. when i get my
star frontiers jones going for gyrojets, i bring that baby out. need to up the pen & damage figures for higher TL versions somehow, tho
WH40K is a setting where everyone fights everyone else in a total war of attrition-to-extinction.
Hmm: Post one: Koltar doesn't get it, loudly and apparently uninformedly. Check.
Post two: Koltar brings up chicks and parties, while continuing to still deliberately not get it. Double check.
First thing I did with my new 4e Ultratech book was look for stuff I could use to make 40k GURPS out of.
But rather than just poke fun at Koltar, let me address his posts in detail. Cause I'm bored or stupid or all three.
QuoteI wanted to like it - I really did.
Except the more I find out about the background universe the less and less appealing it becomes.
My other big problem??
What? What was the first one? Did I fall asleep and miss something? Failing to appeal to you isn't really a problem if you are disecting WHY something fails to appeal to you, you DO realize that right?
QuoteThe miniatures are too stuck in their universe.
At least with REAPER's line of minis for their WARLORD battle game the figs are generic just enough that you can still use them in a Dungeons & Dragons game.
The WARHAMMER 40K figs are too nidentifiably part of That Universe. I can't look at them and say "Yeah that might be a guy in the TRAVELLER universe.
And? No seriously... and? GW isn't in the business of making Traveller models. They sell wargames. It is in their best interests, if you will, that they have an easily recongnizable 'look' to their models. Crappy generic sci-fi models do not, as a general rule, sell well. Detailed, setting specific models, however... do.
QuoteWho are the "Good Guys" in the 40K universe??
So far I haven't found anybody to root for in that setting. Its much easier to stick with my GURPS:TRAVELLER thing.
So, do so. Seriously. First of all, there are no 'good guys'. That is a deliberate design feature, not a bug. That's like me going to a Saw movie and bitching that the bad guy always seems to win, or that the other characters aren't terribly sympathetic, seeing as they are all assholes. Obviously, its not to my taste, I don't go to it, and I don't make threads about it to bitch about how the movie wasn't made Just. For. Me.
QuoteI've been tempted - wwith my styore discount and all. Right now I'm more interested in some oif the terrain thats actually at affordable prices - at least that i can use with any set of rules.
Does this even belong with the rest of the post? Non Sequitor for the lose.
QuoteIf anyone is wondering - YES, I have read up on the background universe. Through webpages like this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000
If you've read all that, they why bother us? To let us know that Koltar won't be playing? Whoopee. You can hang out with Erik then.
QuoteWhere are the women in that universe ?
Leaving aside the Sisters of Battle, the all female gang in Necromunda and a fair number of female characters in various books, a handful of models in a primarily MILITARY game (where are all the females in that WWII game? What gives, man?!) this is just another Koltar the perv moment. Great, we get it, you like chicks, you see chicks everywhere. Great. I can go outside and watch women walk by all day long. What is your point?
QuoteWhere are the parties?
Whats there to even party about ?
Military game again. Never mind that PC's could, in theory party all the time, but most of us game for adventure. Also: Slaaneshi cults.
QuoteWhere is the Freedom?
Freedom fighters?
Leads to chaos cults, or genestealer cults or just being totally pwned by all the various threats to the existance of humanity. Defensibly: The lack of freedom is 'necessary' within canon to preserve the species. Freedom fighters exist, and they are all bad. I thought you read up on the setting?
QuoteI know there is an RPG due later this year set in that universe....but that whole scene just feels depressing. It reminds me a lot of the universe of LEXX that was in the pilot 2 hour movie "I Worship His Shadow" . (Also known as "Tales from a Paralell Universe").
At least in that thing we saw that there were some freedom fighters or rebels being led by the character that Barry Bostwick played.
Again: I don't like strawberry ice cream. Not to my taste. I much prefer Chocolate. But then, I didn't make a thread about it. Also: I've never seen LEXX at all, so your final bit is about as meaningful to me as my telling you that my tail itches sometimes when I have to smite a motherfucker. Interesting, possibly relevant, but really.... do you even get it?
for another fruitless endeavor, i wonder how economics would work in the 40k universe? :haw:
Quote from: beeberfor another fruitless endeavor, i wonder how economics would work in the 40k universe? :haw:
You know, with all the books out there, I am reasonably certain I could make a decent 'working' model of the economics of the Imperium. I mean, aside from a lot of fuedalism, with appropriate economic 'movement', you have your dedicated product worlds (hive worlds producing industry) feeding other worlds that lack those resources (agrarian worlds, fer ex). Then you have self sustaining worlds that have a little of everything, with luxury goods moving in or out as needed via the Empyrean, which probably resembles sea trade on a slightly larger scale. The Imperial Tithe is something like 10% of the worlds goods and, if necessary, population, but is collected irregularly... well, not annually anyway.
So traders can either make regular, but probably small, fortunes running grain to a hive world, and metals back to the agrarian world in a regular circuit, or can risk great losses for larger fortunes carrying luxury goods and religious pilgrims around on chancier routes.
I think it was Realms of Chaos which had rules for creating a 40K "Good" warband for freedom fighters that were supporting the "Star Child" -- the new incarnation of the emperor, not the old liche like one.
Lots of kids like the Tao because they're basically "good". Lots of Space Marine and Imperial Guard could be seen as "good" -- at least as good as modern day armies.
...
Yay Wikipedia! The book is out of print and rare, but here's all the good stuff:
QuoteThe Star Child Theory
The Star Child Theory was introduced early in the Realm of Chaos books and later in the 3rd Edition Warhammer 40,000 guide. The Theory is based not on the Emperor's origin, but on his future. Like the Thorians, those who believe in the Star Child Theory hope for the reincarnation of the Emperor.
Central to the belief is that the Emperor's soul is part of the whole Warp. After Horus crippled the Emperor's mortal frame, his body and soul could no longer remain as one. As his soul melted into the warp, only a tiny core of the Emperor's humanity remained whole, like a boat adrift in the raging sea of the warp. Since the Emperor's soul survived, the possibility remained that his whole essence could be reborn once more.
Like the Shamans that died together to combine and form the Emperor, so too could the Emperor's death herald a new savior. That time would lie far in the future, when mankind's desire for a new savior would strengthen the core of the Emperor's soul and rekindle it to new life.
The soul of the Emperor adrift in the warp is the Star Child. The humans that were left in charge of the Imperium had no real understanding of what had happened to the Emperor, but some, like the Thorians, speculated on how the Emperor could be reborn. Though the Emperor's body continued to live within the Golden Throne and his mind continued to be a beacon for humanity, his soul is a god waiting to be born.
The Illuminati
The Illuminati, first described in the Realm of Chaos books, are the most secret of secret societies. Each member of the brotherhood has suffered daemonic possession of their bodies and managed to purge themselves of the daemon. Sharing a mind with a daemon, they have gained the most intimate understanding of Chaos and its terrible, insidious threat. They now devote themselves to resisting Chaos in the broader universe.
The Illuminati have a special relationship with the Eldar and the Harlequin. Through their experiences they have mastered the Chaos within themselves, and as such they are the only human group allowed entry to the Black Library of the Eldar. Through their research they know the secret of the Emperor and the Star Child. Though other groups may have speculated on the true nature of the Emperor, it is the Illuminati who have actual knowledge of it. They also know of the fall of the Eldar, and seek to prevent the same happening to Mankind. The Illuminati manipulate events to thwart this fate and to pave the way for the Emperor's rebirth.
The Illuminati know that their knowledge would make them heretics in the eyes of the Inquisition, and consequently maintain a strict secrecy over their activities. However, it is uncertain where they stand in the current day, because the Inquisition is currently feuding over which beliefs on the nature of the Emperor could be inspired by the taint of Chaos instead of the truth. However, it seems certain that the Emperor's rebirth can only prove his true deific state, it is only the means and motives to cause such a rebirth of the Emperor that are questioned.
The Sensei
As the Powers of the Warp have their own mortal champions, so too does the Star Child. The Star Child's champions are known as the Sensei. Although they do not necessarily know their true identity, they are actually descendants of the Emperor. Nor is the Emperor himself aware of his immortal descendants.
The Sensei have inherited great power from the Emperor. They are immortal; although they can be killed, they do not age, and possess amazing powers of recovery. They are also by their nature protected from the Chaos Powers. Because they harbor none of the emotions or concepts embodied by the Chaos Powers they are largely invisible to them, and can draw on the energies of the warp to use their psychic powers without risk of attracting daemons or other malicious forces of the warp. Due to their harmonious relationship with the warp, the Sensei are invisible to psychic senses, even to those of the Emperor.
Sensei Adventurer Bands
Sensei wander throughout the galaxy. Their origins are unknown to the Inquisition, who view them as dangerous mutants and heretics. In contrast to the forces of the Imperium, Sensei are natural rebels. As well as being enemies of Chaos, Sensei are enemies of oppression. They and their followers operate as outlaw bands, and appear across the Imperium to fight against repression and injustice. As such they often come into conflict with the Imperium.
The Imperium regards the Sensei as dangerous bandits and nihilists who, if not actually in league with Chaos, are weakening the Imperium's defense against Chaos. Because of their powers and militantly anti-authority natures, they are hunted down and killed by Imperial forces, which in turn forces the Sensei to operate as outlaws. Captured Sensei can be rendered down to manufacture the negative psychic energy used in psycannon bolts.
Hmmm...where to begin?
Well, the Tau are good guys, they're being used by someone bad and they're totally clueless about how bad the universe really is, but in the end the Tau are good guys.
The eldar are good guys, it's just that they know what's really going on and are forced by their dwindling population to make hard choices.
The dark eldar are goody guys, they're having great parties and if it costs the souls of a few animals to avoid being consumed by chaos well, hey, what's a party without blood, terror, and torture. Those animals sure are funny.
The space marines are good guys, just ask them, just ask the Imperium, see good guys? Of course, in asking you have identified yourself as a traitor and must be burned.
The inquisition are good guys, just don't ask anyone or both of you will vanish without a trace. It's better not to question.
The sisters of battle are bad girls and that's good right?
Chaos aren't just good guys, they're FREEDOM FIGHTERS, standing against the rigid and stodgy imperium. Archie would totally be a chaos marine. The worshipers of Slaneesh have even more wild parties than the Dark Eldar, though inevitably there's more blood.
The soldiers of the imperial guard are good guys. The write home to mom when they can and got their girlfriends pregnant before leaving, just like it said in the manual and the holy scripture.
The orks are good guys, because GREEN IS GOOD AND GREEN MEANS GO! (but the red wunz go fasta)
now, thanks to david's description, 40k is just a nice big realm of warm fuzzy happiness! :grouphug:
Except for the Tyrannids. And the Necrons.
Quote from: StuartExcept for the Tyrannids. And the Necrons.
Nah, see the Tyranids are good because they are all about the 'one big happy family' of the Hive mind. Everyone loves everyone else in the Hive Mind.
Necrons are Good because they just want to bring peace and quiet and order to the galaxy. peace and quiet and order of death and starless eternal night, but hey, ya can't make an omlet without consuming a few stars along the way....
I got into WH40k during the Rogue Trader edition. The continual tweaking of the rules with new units and updates on a monthly basis pretty much killed the game for us.
It was during this period that they also did their huge reset on Space Marine power armour, wherein wearing power armour made little difference to your survival rate. The Emperor's finest might as well have been naked.
Quote from: beeberi think that's the ARL.
So it is. And available at a mere TL 10, too. Always one of my favorites. Pack it together in a bullpup configuration to bring the length under control and you pretty much have the Imperial Space Marine bolter.
!i!
The thing which sold me on the WH40k world was Space Hulk (which I proudly have still after all these years...all of it). I never did get into the tabletop portion of the game (cost, time, and inability to paint well) and looked hard at the Epic scale stuff but never committed to it.
If I could find a reasonably good alternative to regular Space Marine figures (or find me a whole passel of the "beaky" types for cheap), I'd love to throw those up against the Genestealers via the rules put out in White Dwarf oh-so-many years ago.
I dig the vibe of the campaign universe and do look forward to seeing what they do as an RPG, but due to the sheer bloody size/scale of the WH40k "thing," I think it, as well as Star Wars, would be best served by systemless sourcebooks which one could use with whatever system the person deems best.