TheRPGSite

I've been a professional ghostwriter since before most of you were potty trained. Let's talk about the BUSINESS of writing.

If you do not care about your RPG Crap being unapproved and/or sold via some off-license version of D&D-with-the-serial-numbers-filed-off, don't sign the OGL. Enjoy the freedom (and challenges) of the wilderness.

But if you really want to publish APPROVED D&D CRAP, here's why you sign the new OGL when the official version of the license arrives:

1) RPGs make shit money so the royalty clause will rarely affect you.
Very few authors ever make big money on Kickstarter, DriveThru or Amazon selling their RPG crap, usually making even less money when it's not a RPG core book. Go look at a couple dozen 5e Setting / Adventure Path / Bestiary / Supplement Kickstarters and see how many hit the WotC royalty threshold in the past decade. Seriously, go look.

If you luck out and your magical Kickstarter makes giant piles of cash, then happily pay the royalty and let your accountant do his magic. That's an amazing problem to have! Why? Because you then parlay that massive KS success to all your future projects, whether they're OGL projects or not.

2) Approved D&D Crap makes more sales because most D&D players won't wander off the reservation.
By all accounts, Woketards of the Coast plans to make 6e a "walled garden" where they maintain greater control over their customer's experience (and their wallet). Thus, OGL signers within the garden will sell more than authors outside the walls shucking and jiving with their "Not D&D Crap, You Can Totally Use For D&D".

Be honest - how often do you see players and DMs using Non-WotC stuff with their 5e D&D? How much 5e 3PP stuff do you see in game stores?

Not much has changed from the AD&D days. The majority of AD&D gamers bought only TSR stuff, but there was a plethora of 3PP stuff from Judges Guild, Chaosium, Mayfair, etc that was equally good but sold to a much smaller subset of gamers. Probably 25% or less of D&Ders wander off the official D&D reservation.

3) Pray to the gods that WotC steals your stuff!!!
The OGL clause where the Seattle Shiteaters own whatever you create sounds terrible, but it's actually no big deal in real life. Don't be afraid of this clause...because there's a 99.99% chance you're not that good of an author to be stolen from.

Harsh, but true.

Very few authors in the history of D&D have ever created iconic settings, adventures, monsters or classes. Ask yourself, since WotC took over D&D, what not-WotC 3PP author has created something for D&D that has become really popular inside the D&D community? Try to name an iconic adventure created by any 3PP that you've seen run repeatedly at tables or even talked about often online?

But for a moment, let's imagine WotC stole your crap...what would that mean? Ready? THAT WOULD BE A GOLDMINE FOR YOU!!!

Let's say you invent a new monster called an "orc" and the staff at WotC take a five minute break from finger fucking each other's syphilitic bungholes and realize "holy shit, we MUST have this orc monster as our own!" and quickly invoke the clause where they can now use your "orc" in all their official WotC products.

This is your lucky day because you now have AAA+ badass bragging rights for all your future writing endeavors. You would quickly crank out Orc: The Orcening, 101 Orc Breakfasts, Big Book of Orc Feats, etc to capitalize on the excitement around your orc becoming Truly 100% Corporate D&D Official. Moreover, you would parlay WotC stealing your orc with getting an officially paid gig as a WotC freelancer to write Official Orc Crap for D&D.

Here's a professional caveat: NEVER sell out your darlings. If you truly love something you've created and you believe it's special, unique and wonderful, then NEVER use it in any OGL crap you write. Save that darling for your own crap. Only use ideas in your OGL crap that you're cool with being stolen by the Woketards.

So go ahead. Sign the damn thing. It's retarded but so is 5e.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 13, 2023, 02:43:04 AM
I've been a professional ghostwriter since before most of you were potty trained. Let's talk about the BUSINESS of writing.

If you do not care about your RPG Crap being unapproved and/or sold via some off-license version of D&D-with-the-serial-numbers-filed-off, don't sign the OGL. Enjoy the freedom (and challenges) of the wilderness.

But if you really want to publish APPROVED D&D CRAP, here's why you sign the new OGL when the official version of the license arrives:

1) RPGs make shit money so the royalty clause will rarely affect you.
Very few authors ever make big money on Kickstarter, DriveThru or Amazon selling their RPG crap, usually making even less money when it's not a RPG core book. Go look at a couple dozen 5e Setting / Adventure Path / Bestiary / Supplement Kickstarters and see how many hit the WotC royalty threshold in the past decade. Seriously, go look.

If you luck out and your magical Kickstarter makes giant piles of cash, then happily pay the royalty and let your accountant do his magic. That's an amazing problem to have! Why? Because you then parlay that massive KS success to all your future projects, whether they're OGL projects or not.

2) Approved D&D Crap makes more sales because most D&D players won't wander off the reservation.
By all accounts, Woketards of the Coast plans to make 6e a "walled garden" where they maintain greater control over their customer's experience (and their wallet). Thus, OGL signers within the garden will sell more than authors outside the walls shucking and jiving with their "Not D&D Crap, You Can Totally Use For D&D".

Be honest - how often do you see players and DMs using Non-WotC stuff with their 5e D&D? How much 5e 3PP stuff do you see in game stores?

Not much has changed from the AD&D days. The majority of AD&D gamers bought only TSR stuff, but there was a plethora of 3PP stuff from Judges Guild, Chaosium, Mayfair, etc that was equally good but sold to a much smaller subset of gamers. Probably 25% or less of D&Ders wander off the official D&D reservation.

3) Pray to the gods that WotC steals your stuff!!!
The OGL clause where the Seattle Shiteaters own whatever you create sounds terrible, but it's actually no big deal in real life. Don't be afraid of this clause...because there's a 99.99% chance you're not that good of an author to be stolen from.

Harsh, but true.

Very few authors in the history of D&D have ever created iconic settings, adventures, monsters or classes. Ask yourself, since WotC took over D&D, what not-WotC 3PP author has created something for D&D that has become really popular inside the D&D community? Try to name an iconic adventure created by any 3PP that you've seen run repeatedly at tables or even talked about often online?

But for a moment, let's imagine WotC stole your crap...what would that mean? Ready? THAT WOULD BE A GOLDMINE FOR YOU!!!

Let's say you invent a new monster called an "orc" and the staff at WotC take a five minute break from finger fucking each other's syphilitic bungholes and realize "holy shit, we MUST have this orc monster as our own!" and quickly invoke the clause where they can now use your "orc" in all their official WotC products.

This is your lucky day because you now have AAA+ badass bragging rights for all your future writing endeavors. You would quickly crank out Orc: The Orcening, 101 Orc Breakfasts, Big Book of Orc Feats, etc to capitalize on the excitement around your orc becoming Truly 100% Corporate D&D Official. Moreover, you would parlay WotC stealing your orc with getting an officially paid gig as a WotC freelancer to write Official Orc Crap for D&D.

Here's a professional caveat: NEVER sell out your darlings. If you truly love something you've created and you believe it's special, unique and wonderful, then NEVER use it in any OGL crap you write. Save that darling for your own crap. Only use ideas in your OGL crap that you're cool with being stolen by the Woketards.

So go ahead. Sign the damn thing. It's retarded but so is 5e.

WOTC EMPLOYEE POSTS WORST BAIT EVER, ASKED TO LEAVE

Quote from: MeganovaStella on January 13, 2023, 07:45:03 AM
WOTC EMPLOYEE POSTS WORST BAIT EVER, ASKED TO LEAVE

I had the same thought but with 14543 posts they would have to be deep, deep, undercover. More likely a contrarian looking to stir up trouble or a brainwashed fanboy or something along those lines.

Gr8 b8 m8 8/8

Quote from: MeganovaStella on January 13, 2023, 07:45:03 AM
WOTC EMPLOYEE POSTS WORST BAIT EVER, ASKED TO LEAVE

If you quote the whole message for a one-line reply, you should read the message you are quoting a little more carefully.  Also, no need to shout, we can hear you just fine.

Delete

Is there a Delete function on this system?

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 13, 2023, 08:02:07 AM

Quote from: MeganovaStella on January 13, 2023, 07:45:03 AM
WOTC EMPLOYEE POSTS WORST BAIT EVER, ASKED TO LEAVE

I had the same thought but with 14543 posts they would have to be deep, deep, undercover. More likely a contrarian looking to stir up trouble or a brainwashed fanboy or something along those lines.

It is only our beloved Spinachcat in action after finally being potty trained :) The discussion between adults can now resume.

Wow so much hot take. You forgot the part where they declare your orc to be something-ist, paint it pink and add sprinkles and change it's attack to hug +1, and cut you loose.

Anyway gramps you'll be looking forward to potty training 2.0 soon.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 13, 2023, 02:43:04 AM3) Pray to the gods that WotC steals your stuff!!!
The OGL clause where the Seattle Shiteaters own whatever you create sounds terrible, but it's actually no big deal in real life. Don't be afraid of this clause...because there's a 99.99% chance you're not that good of an author to be stolen from.

This is one complaint about the new OGL that I don't understand. If you release content under the current OGL 1.0a, then that content is Open Gaming Content which means that Wizards of the Coast and everyone else on Earth can copy your open content and sell it themselves. So the OGL 1.1 is only spelling out what is already true.

And I find it a big hypocritical to complain about WotC having a perpetual, royalty free right to copy your material without your permission while simultaneously arguing that you have a perpetual, royalty free right to copy D&D without WotC's permission.

"I bow not yet before the Iron Crown,

nor cast my own small golden sceptre down."

--J.R.R. Tolkien, Mythopoeia

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 13, 2023, 09:46:14 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 13, 2023, 02:43:04 AM3) Pray to the gods that WotC steals your stuff!!!
The OGL clause where the Seattle Shiteaters own whatever you create sounds terrible, but it's actually no big deal in real life. Don't be afraid of this clause...because there's a 99.99% chance you're not that good of an author to be stolen from.

This is one complaint about the new OGL that I don't understand. If you release content under the current OGL 1.0a, then that content is Open Gaming Content which means that Wizards of the Coast and everyone else on Earth can copy your open content and sell it themselves. So the OGL 1.1 is only spelling out what is already true.

And I find it a big hypocritical to complain about WotC having a perpetual, royalty free right to copy your material without your permission while simultaneously arguing that you have a perpetual, royalty free right to copy D&D without WotC's permission.

Agreed. I have a ton of concerns about this 1.1 OGL, but this concern is very low on the list. Tons and tons of stuff was designated as open by 3rd parties, including by Paizo, and WOTC has done jack and shit with it. For around 25 years they simply have never been interested in your open gaming content and all of a sudden they will be for...reasons? Son, if they didn't want to swipe Pathfinder's open content, and Green Ronin's open content, and all the other actual professionals open content when they could have all along, they're not swiping your fantasy heartbreaker shit.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 13, 2023, 09:46:14 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 13, 2023, 02:43:04 AM3) Pray to the gods that WotC steals your stuff!!!
The OGL clause where the Seattle Shiteaters own whatever you create sounds terrible, but it's actually no big deal in real life. Don't be afraid of this clause...because there's a 99.99% chance you're not that good of an author to be stolen from.

This is one complaint about the new OGL that I don't understand. If you release content under the current OGL 1.0a, then that content is Open Gaming Content which means that Wizards of the Coast and everyone else on Earth can copy your open content and sell it themselves. So the OGL 1.1 is only spelling out what is already true.

And I find it a big hypocritical to complain about WotC having a perpetual, royalty free right to copy your material without your permission while simultaneously arguing that you have a perpetual, royalty free right to copy D&D without WotC's permission.

1a defines Open Game Content as crunch and Product Identity as fluff. Anyone can use the former but not the latter. 

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 13, 2023, 09:46:14 AM

This is one complaint about the new OGL that I don't understand. If you release content under the current OGL 1.0a, then that content is Open Gaming Content which means that Wizards of the Coast and everyone else on Earth can copy your open content and sell it themselves. So the OGL 1.1 is only spelling out what is already true.

  Not quite. The OGL 1.0a allows for distinction between Open Gaming Content, which is shareable and which anyone who builds a derivation of it must make shareable in turn, and Product Identity, which was not shared. WotC themselves reserved key creatures, as well as characters and settings, as Product Identity. The OGL 1.1 erases that distinction and gives WotC carte blanche.

Quote
And I find it a big hypocritical to complain about WotC having a perpetual, royalty free right to copy your material without your permission while simultaneously arguing that you have a perpetual, royalty free right to copy D&D without WotC's permission.

   Much of the problem is that WotC gave that permission--with continuous reassurances that it would be perpetual--and has now tried to revoke it after many people have built livelihoods around it.

No there is truth to what Spinachat says. None of it is bait, it's more just a realistic outlook. I don't think you will get any bragging rights from WoTC stealing your shit unless they credit you in some major way. Which they don't have too.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 13, 2023, 02:43:04 AM
I've been a professional ghostwriter since before most of you were potty trained. Let's talk about the BUSINESS of writing.

Did not know you were a ghostwriter, cat. Cool.

While I detest the 1.1 license, this reads as fairly legit advice and criticism. It's true, most people who sign the new OGL will see no real harm from it and a boost to sales.

That doesn't make WOTC not a bunch of assholes for trying to de-authorize what came before. All they had to do was make signing the new OGL more attractive by making killer rules people would want to write for, access to DNDBeyond for your third party stuff if you signed it, and access to their new VTT if you signed it. IF that new VTT is the shit they claim it is, people would have wanted to write for 5.5e and signed the new OGL to do it. And they could have left the old OGL as it is for people not interested in writing for the new version of the game or having their stuff on DNDBeyond or the new VTT.

But de-authorizing 1.0a is not just unnecessary to achieving that goal, it's extremely harmful.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 13, 2023, 02:43:04 AMDon't be afraid of this clause...because there's a 99.99% chance you're not that good of an author to be stolen from.

Thinking back to 2000, I think that's the exact same percentage chance the OGL would never change.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 13, 2023, 10:00:38 AMBut de-authorizing 1.0a is not just unnecessary to achieving that goal, it's extremely harmful.

I think it depends on how much clout the 3pp really have. This reminds me of how the Mongolians said stuff like "If your gods didn't want you to be punished, they wouldn't have made me".
5e has a much wider audience than before, but the truth is the wider the audience the dumber and more mindlessly consumerist they are. Could Blizzard have pulled off its 2019 shenanigans with the audience it had in 1999? I argue not.

'Can we just fuck all of you over, and will you all roll over and ask for seconds?' is basically the question WotC is asking. Currently there is blowback, but I don't have much faith in the willpower of modern day consumers. If the idiotic fans of 5e just ignore 3pp, then eventually all will be forced to fall under WoTC grip and then people will start making excuses for their actions like "Well, I gotta make somekind of living".

The 'cache' of writing something for D&D is pretty weak, especially these days. Back when D&D had little competition, when Dragon had a 98% rejection rate (according to Kim Mohan when he was EoC, because you sure as hell weren't getting a job writing an actual sourcebook), then it kinda meant something. But that's also because back then D&D *was* the definition of the hobby.

Today? By comparison, less so. Still significant of course. The OGL democratized game-design to the point where anyone willing to put some elbow-grease to their imagination can crank out a product, quality not withstanding. People that came in before 3e are the ones that fetishized the cache of doing "official" D&D products which the OGL capitalized on (which was a shrewd strategy).

But given the fact that D&D as both a brand and genre has been done to death, so much so "death" is debated as being removed from many tables... I still beat the drum of "why the love?" and why for WotC of all things? Look I get that people 1) like the system 2) like the genre - but historically we as D&D fans have ever completely agreed on the details of how these two things interact. Otherwise there wouldn't be a bazillion flavors of OSR, and third-party d20 products floating out there.

Unless you're racking up hundreds of thousands of dollars annually from your games, I'll say this (as someone that used to chase WotC Clout but was disabused of it and the system after getting their "Official D&D product" achievement - It's only worth it if you intend on *really* sacrificing to get experience. And even then you'll come out the other side asking yourself if it was *really* worth it. I'd contend that *today* you're better off saying fuck it - and making your own content, and *not* using the OGL at all (of course with Paizo announcing their new ORC License - this point may be moot).

But if you go that route, I'd seriously consider creating your own system and avoid the potential litigation altogether. Mainly because you need experience. If you want to do it full time, I *honestly* suggest going another route than D&D. There are ways to get that experience doing your own thing - or doing SWAG projects for Savage Worlds, or pitching ideas to your favorite Not-D&D company and avoid this fiasco entirely. Besides if WotC were the horse to bet your game-design futures on... why would you support them after this debacle?

The ORC License, I'm going to predict, assuming it's what they say it will be, is going to create a lot of opportunities for new game-startups, which might include you. No one is going to do it "exactly" the same (though I suspect d20-ish games will be well represented) but the options of it being setting neutral means that there will be no better time than in the history of our hobby for you to bring your imagination to life *your way*. So take advantage of it.

And fuck WotC. OneD&D is their locust-plague leaving our planet. Wave goodbye and good riddance. Now we have all this beautiful blank space to fill.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 13, 2023, 10:08:04 AM
I think it depends on how much clout the 3pp really have. This reminds me of how the Mongolians said stuff like "If your gods didn't want you to be punished, they wouldn't have made me".
5e has a much wider audience than before, but the truth is the wider the audience the dumber and more mindlessly consumerist they are. Could Blizzard have pulled off its 2019 shenanigans with the audience it had in 1999? I argue not.

I completely agree with this. But there is a breaking point even the cows can't abide by. Even now... Blizzard has lost a massive amount of it's peak playerbase due to hyperspecialization in a certain type of play. 5e is largely marketed like that - AP's and lame "pseudo-settings" where most 3rd party product does the real hard work. But the cows just run AP's and get their fix believing they're now just like the morons in Big Bang Theory... or whatever.

But there is a limit... we're gonna see if we've reached it.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 13, 2023, 10:08:04 AM'Can we just fuck all of you over, and will you all roll over and ask for seconds?' is basically the question WotC is asking. Currently there is blowback, but I don't have much faith in the willpower of modern day consumers. If the idiotic fans of 5e just ignore 3pp, then eventually all will be forced to fall under WoTC grip and then people will start making excuses for their actions like "Well, I gotta make somekind of living".

Yep. This is the real question. I would totally agree with you if not for one thing: OneD&D itself. It's going to drag a lot of people with it, for sure. But I'm contending that we're *both* right. In that D&D as a brand will not be doing the same thing as what most of us here *actually* do in our TTRPG's. They're going to be playing a different kind of game entirely.

People want to play TTRPG's in a traditional manner. I know very few GM's that actually want to do VTT's to the degree that WotC is proposing, because that's not really what TTRPG's are about - they're proposing a videogame with "DM assistance" (plus all that monetization)... which is really a clunky videogame. Meanwhile, for us, we're going to have the run of the place, with the responsibilities to curate the TTRPG experience based on our own products.

Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 10:32:55 AM

People want to play TTRPG's in a traditional manner. I know very few GM's that actually want to do VTT's to the degree that WotC is proposing, because that's not really what TTRPG's are about - they're proposing a videogame with "DM assistance" (plus all that monetization)... which is really a clunky videogame. Meanwhile, for us, we're going to have the run of the place, with the responsibilities to curate the TTRPG experience based on our own products.

That's always sorta been where I am. I don't "get" the VTT craze on a fundamental level.

I've played RPGs online for years. I remember playing Rifts in a chat room back around ~2000, I even played play-by-post Star Wars D6  before that on fricking Prodigy of all things.

I never needed the VTT crap. And trying to deal with that shit just takes up time and is frustrating and limiting.

But then again, I'm also not one of these GMs that invests in hundreds to thousands of dollars of elaborate 3D terrain for battle maps and has a stable of hundreds of painted miniatures. When I use them at all - and I don't, always - my battle map is one of those erasable vinyl grid maps that I sketch a scene on quick. My miniatures - for the most part - are glass craft stones in various colors for mooks and a few random things for more serious/unique encounters.

D&D is not my arts and crafts outlet, basically.

So maybe I'm the wrong market entirely, but I know more GMs like me than the alternative, by a long shot.

Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 10:32:55 AMI completely agree with this. But there is a breaking point even the cows can't abide by. Even now...

Agreed. In addition, WotC wishes it could monetize addiction as it can with Magic the Gathering. Magic DEMANDS you keep paying to keep playing. D&D doesn't. Because D&D, even at its worst design, and with the most focus on mindlessness, takes a bunch of effort. Even as just drama night with some dice for flavor, it still takes a large collaborative effort.

I don't see the very sort of weak-willed people WoTC wants to attract having said will to learn a new system and pay for basically the same experience. So I guess it depends if the main fanbase are shee or posers. If they are sheep, expect 10 more years of One D&D where all the other VTTs are shut down. If they are posers, the future is much more uncertain.

I suspect the VTT will be like a video game with a brain behind it instead of whatever options the coders could think of squeeze in. There is also the possibility of a stable of GMS s you could go online and play anytime in a one-shot or Western Marches type campaign. I think there is a lot of potential there. Unfortunately I'll never know as Wizards is dead to me after this.

This is what I said in other posts - a lot of D&D players don't consume mobile-games. OneD&D will be their first experience and it will capture a lot of them. But when I said that, I didn't see WotC pulling this OGL debacle out of their asses, which has put a lot of people off from the brand. How much? Probably not as many as I hope...

But that said, whatever it is they're doing, it's not going to be D&D as *we* know it. And that will also put people off. Hell, just changing editions often causes people to drop from a brand. D&D is certainly no stranger to that. But OneD&D is an entirely different beast. They claim it will be 5e compatible - but we know it won't. Even if it's just video-game version of 5e on a super-slick VTT, it will not be the same as what we enjoy as TTRPG's and all the corollary things we do with our TTRPG's. It will be highly curated, and manicured for consumption the way WotC wants it. Just like any mobile-game.

And these people running things at WotC don't really understand TTRPG's... but they do understand how to make mobile games, and frankly they don't care about TTRPG's - they see a bloc of brand loyalists they can implement their proven psychologically harpoon-driven mobile-games strategy into their collective melons and capture them. Sure a lot of people will fall out of the Brand... but they know There Be Whales in Them Herds!

To those of us that don't really *want* to engage in that kind of gaming - which already exists, mind you - we're going to be left to our own devices. That's a GOOD THING.

QuoteNot quite. The OGL 1.0a allows for distinction between Open Gaming Content, which is shareable and which anyone who builds a derivation of it must make shareable in turn, and Product Identity, which was not shared. WotC themselves reserved key creatures, as well as characters and settings, as Product Identity. The OGL 1.1 erases that distinction and gives WotC carte blanche.

This. It reduces our contribution to fan-based content without full protection and compensation. My work is my own and I don't work for free. Game mechanics and statistics are not copyrightable; only the product identity is and the 1.1 basically make me give up my rights of my own product identity.

I don't want to write for 5e and I have never written for 5e and have no plans to do so in the future. However, the products I have been writing for (Pathfinder, Mutants and Masterminds) have used the 1.0a license. I would not ever care about the OGL 1.1 except that the company is basically trying to void the 1.0a and force signing on the 1.1. That's the problem.

Fortunately, the development of the new ORC license will be the way to move forward.

Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 10:32:55 AM
I completely agree with this. But there is a breaking point even the cows can't abide by. Even now... Blizzard has lost a massive amount of it's peak playerbase due to hyperspecialization in a certain type of play. 5e is largely marketed like that - AP's and lame "pseudo-settings" where most 3rd party product does the real hard work. But the cows just run AP's and get their fix believing they're now just like the morons in Big Bang Theory... or whatever.

But there is a limit... we're gonna see if we've reached it.

Exactly.  We will also find out how well the parallel holds up, from MMO to WotC.  If I had to guess today, I'd say that a similar effect will happen, but we won't have any way to know it. 

I've played three MMOs where I really got into it, over a long period of time, and got a good sense of what the player base was generally like.  One was too early in the genre to develop a notable player culture, but the other two definitely had times where the devs pushed too far and drove off players with changes that affected the culture.  That's survivable if the changes attract new blood that enjoys them.  However, for those like me that left, it wasn't sudden.  Rather, over about a year or so, I played less and less, until finally I accepted that the game had changed to the point that it wasn't fun for me anymore.  A big part of that was who I could do pick up groups with.  When I started both games, you could meet random strangers online, organize a group, and usually have a good time.  Sometimes you even met people that became online friends that way.  In other words, there was a notable network effect in finding people to hang around with and do the game, which kept people coming back.  The changes to the game started gradually changing the network as the people dropped out and their replacements didn't fit that mold.

People have been playing D&D 5E and participating in their various online/organized activities despite all of the drama and woke nonsense.  When you give them a reason to consider if that's the best use of their time, some of them are going to realize that they don't really like the noise.  Every person you drive off like that magnifies the effect a little for the next person.  So I'm back to my guess that the real effect will be to drive out anyone that is primarily interested in table top roleplaying, but that the numbers will hold up on their end for years.

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 13, 2023, 10:43:12 AMSo maybe I'm the wrong market entirely, but I know more GMs like me than the alternative, by a long shot.

Im a big foundry fan. Since it has really good mod compatibility, I can get a lot of good automation going for free.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 13, 2023, 11:12:50 AM

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 13, 2023, 10:43:12 AMSo maybe I'm the wrong market entirely, but I know more GMs like me than the alternative, by a long shot.

Im a big foundry fan. Since it has really good mod compatibility, I can get a lot of good automation going for free.

I found VTTs like Foundry useful for things you'd want a battlemap for, but it took WAY more prep than for anything I've ever run at a table.

With a VTT, I can't just throw a map out on the table (I have a pile of nice maps of generic locations I can choose from... or I drop the vinyl mat and colored pens to rough it out in less than a minute), grab some monster minis (or dice... "monster 1-6" makes life easier for everyone), throw a bookmark in my monster book and record some hit point values and we're off to the races no matter how far my players go a field.

For VTTs I always had to treat it more like a railroad because if I haven't coded in all the monsters and picked the maps (and drawn in the walls/doors and added the light sources) ahead of time then everything slows to a crawl because it definitely takes longer to set up to the point my usual improv style of GMing feels like a poor for for a VTT (a theater-of-the-mind system on Discord with a dicebot works much better for my preferred style... I can always throw up a quick map or other piece of art for ambiance).

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 13, 2023, 09:46:14 AM

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 13, 2023, 02:43:04 AM3) Pray to the gods that WotC steals your stuff!!!
The OGL clause where the Seattle Shiteaters own whatever you create sounds terrible, but it's actually no big deal in real life. Don't be afraid of this clause...because there's a 99.99% chance you're not that good of an author to be stolen from.

This is one complaint about the new OGL that I don't understand. If you release content under the current OGL 1.0a, then that content is Open Gaming Content which means that Wizards of the Coast and everyone else on Earth can copy your open content and sell it themselves. So the OGL 1.1 is only spelling out what is already true.

And I find it a big hypocritical to complain about WotC having a perpetual, royalty free right to copy your material without your permission while simultaneously arguing that you have a perpetual, royalty free right to copy D&D without WotC's permission.

Under OGL 1.0a you can release content as Open Content, and declare part of it Product Identity. OGL 1.0a does not allow anyone, not even Wizards of the Coast, to use what you declare as Product Identity.

In OGL 1.1, Open Content became Our Content and Product Identity became Your Content. And OGL 1.1 allows Wizards of the Coast to use Your Content without paying you, and also to cancel your license so you can no longer continue selling Your Content.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 13, 2023, 09:46:14 AM
This is one complaint about the new OGL that I don't understand. If you release content under the current OGL 1.0a, then that content is Open Gaming Content which means that Wizards of the Coast and everyone else on Earth can copy your open content and sell it themselves. So the OGL 1.1 is only spelling out what is already true.

And I find it a big hypocritical to complain about WotC having a perpetual, royalty free right to copy your material without your permission while simultaneously arguing that you have a perpetual, royalty free right to copy D&D without WotC's permission.

You are missing the part where if Wizards did that, their resulting work would have to open content as well. Which mean I and everybody else would get to copy and remix that content ourselves.

Spin gets a lot of flack, some of it deserved, but this sounds like solid insight.  If you're an amateur who just wants to get published, or you're a new writer hoping to establish a reputation the OGL ain't that bad.  If you're established and/or successful I'd think twice or thrice before using it.

Quote from: estar on January 13, 2023, 03:59:40 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 13, 2023, 09:46:14 AM
This is one complaint about the new OGL that I don't understand. If you release content under the current OGL 1.0a, then that content is Open Gaming Content which means that Wizards of the Coast and everyone else on Earth can copy your open content and sell it themselves. So the OGL 1.1 is only spelling out what is already true.

And I find it a big hypocritical to complain about WotC having a perpetual, royalty free right to copy your material without your permission while simultaneously arguing that you have a perpetual, royalty free right to copy D&D without WotC's permission.

You are missing the part where if Wizards did that, their resulting work would have to open content as well. Which mean I and everybody else would get to copy and remix that content ourselves.

I don't think that's right. Under v1.0a, they aren't required to open anything except other people's open content and derivatives of that.

And WotC *did* do that twice. For example, the Monster Manual II for 3E featured two monsters from White Wolf's Creature Collection, but nothing else in MMII was open content. They made very clear that the *only* open content in MMII was those two creatures.

Quote from: Reckall on January 13, 2023, 08:43:52 AMIt is only our beloved Spinachcat in action after finally being potty trained :) The discussion between adults can now resume.

Gotcha. You're literally too fucking stupid to understand business realities.

Not a surprise. You've always been drooling retard on this forum.

Just wait for the 6e release. Whatever WotC wants signed, will be signed. Not by the "big names" who MIGHT be able to survive Palladium Books style via their own fanbases, but certainly by the guys on DriveThru cranking out the "101 New Elf Feats" and "Dangerous Dungeons #124"

Quote from: Mishihari on January 13, 2023, 04:24:55 PM
Spin gets a lot of flack, some of it deserved, but this sounds like solid insight.  If you're an amateur who just wants to get published, or you're a new writer hoping to establish a reputation the OGL ain't that bad.  If you're established and/or successful I'd think twice or thrice before using it.

Or if you're neither but feel an innate revulsion at the tought of being some megacorp's bitch.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 13, 2023, 10:00:13 AMI don't think you will get any bragging rights from WoTC stealing your shit unless they credit you in some major way. Which they don't have too.

It doesn't matter if WotC credits you. It would be nice, but not necessary.

You know you published your magical new "orc" monster on Day X. When WotC steals it and publishes your "orc" on Day X + Y, then you have the bragging rights - with proof - to crow about in regards to all your future marketing.

Your social media sig becomes "D&D author who created the Orc. Follow me for more Orcs"

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 13, 2023, 10:50:20 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 13, 2023, 10:00:13 AMI don't think you will get any bragging rights from WoTC stealing your shit unless they credit you in some major way. Which they don't have too.

It doesn't matter if WotC credits you. It would be nice, but not necessary.

You know you published your magical new "orc" monster on Day X. When WotC steals it and publishes your "orc" on Day X + Y, then you have the bragging rights - with proof - to crow about in regards to all your future marketing.

Your social media sig becomes "D&D author who created the Orc. Follow me for more Orcs"

This is correct.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 13, 2023, 10:00:38 AMThat doesn't make WOTC not a bunch of assholes for trying to de-authorize what came before.

Woketards of the Coast have been total assholes for years. This is just them shitting on the most productive part of the fandom. It's absolutely an asshole move, but that's the perks of being the 500lb Gorilla in a marketplace. RPGs are a tiny pond and they're the only big fish.

Plenty of employers suck and devour their employee's creativity and efforts for very little compensation. WotC is just upping the ante and having their "volunteer authors" get paid zero from WotC for the pleasure of being mistreated by WotC.

It's not nice, it's not fair, but it's reality. And if anyone doesn't like that reality, they can just not write Approved D&D products and try their luck in the wilderness with the rest of the rogues.

 

Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 10:32:55 AMPeople want to play TTRPG's in a traditional manner. I know very few GM's that actually want to do VTT's to the degree that WotC is proposing, because that's not really what TTRPG's are about - they're proposing a videogame with "DM assistance" (plus all that monetization)... which is really a clunky videogame. Meanwhile, for us, we're going to have the run of the place, with the responsibilities to curate the TTRPG experience based on our own products.

The successs of OneD&D's digital walled garden plan depends on data we don't have. Perhaps WotC does have the data. They are clearly not interested in older fans nor traditional gamers, and perhaps that is because they are stupid and just chasing the dream of digital dollars OR it's because they have the data about GenZ gaming preferences.

Unless we can somehow access the data on the digital player base (especially their spending behaviors), we won't know why Woketards are betting so heavily on VTT D&D.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 13, 2023, 10:50:20 PMIt doesn't matter if WotC credits you. It would be nice, but not necessary.

This is what I disagree on. I think the "bragging rights" as to having made something that WOTC can just toss into it's books somewhere won't really serve as a strong attraction to anything else you had made.

WotC can also just make thier own Orc content as well., at which point my "bragging rights" are pointless.This feels like a suckers option. So yes, most people but still.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 13, 2023, 10:50:20 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 13, 2023, 10:00:13 AMI don't think you will get any bragging rights from WoTC stealing your shit unless they credit you in some major way. Which they don't have too.

It doesn't matter if WotC credits you. It would be nice, but not necessary.

You know you published your magical new "orc" monster on Day X. When WotC steals it and publishes your "orc" on Day X + Y, then you have the bragging rights - with proof - to crow about in regards to all your future marketing.

Your social media sig becomes "D&D author who created the Orc. Follow me for more Orcs"

I can't imagine literally anyone caring about that.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 14, 2023, 08:17:13 AMThis is what I disagree on. I think the "bragging rights" as to having made something that WOTC can just toss into it's books somewhere won't really serve as a strong attraction to anything else you had made.

I'm still bragging that Hero Games used an idea of mine for Champions 2. And that was 40 years ago!

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 14, 2023, 10:38:06 AMI'm still bragging that Hero Games used an idea of mine for Champions 2. And that was 40 years ago!

Exactly. Getting fan content into a main release is generally pleasant. Primarily when you're actually credited. It's another if that's your job, and your given a cease and dissist as property vampires eat your stuff.

I basically agree with Spinichcat that 'This sucks, nothing we can likely do about it and sheep are gonna continue being sheep'. But I don't agree with his '-And here is how thats a GOOD thing!'.

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 13, 2023, 10:43:12 AM

Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 10:32:55 AM

People want to play TTRPG's in a traditional manner. I know very few GM's that actually want to do VTT's to the degree that WotC is proposing, because that's not really what TTRPG's are about - they're proposing a videogame with "DM assistance" (plus all that monetization)... which is really a clunky videogame. Meanwhile, for us, we're going to have the run of the place, with the responsibilities to curate the TTRPG experience based on our own products.

That's always sorta been where I am. I don't "get" the VTT craze on a fundamental level.

I've played RPGs online for years. I remember playing Rifts in a chat room back around ~2000, I even played play-by-post Star Wars D6  before that on fricking Prodigy of all things.

I never needed the VTT crap. And trying to deal with that shit just takes up time and is frustrating and limiting.

But then again, I'm also not one of these GMs that invests in hundreds to thousands of dollars of elaborate 3D terrain for battle maps and has a stable of hundreds of painted miniatures. When I use them at all - and I don't, always - my battle map is one of those erasable vinyl grid maps that I sketch a scene on quick. My miniatures - for the most part - are glass craft stones in various colors for mooks and a few random things for more serious/unique encounters.

D&D is not my arts and crafts outlet, basically.

So maybe I'm the wrong market entirely, but I know more GMs like me than the alternative, by a long shot.

Here is where VTT is super helpful. You and your players all have families and busy lives. You don't have time to create a setting and adventures, they don't have time between sessions to do much on D&D either. You find an adventure path you like from WOTC (and despite claims to the contrary there are actually quite a number of good adventures from them these days, and some stinkers, and it's not that hard to discern which are which).

So you access the adventure on D&D Beyond (if you want), and you buy it for your VTT of choice (Roll20, Fantasy Grounds, Foundry, etc..). Players make their PCs on D&DBeyond as well, making the same choices as always but seeing all options you've approved for your game (including homebrew ones) so they have the full array of options in front of them rather than spread through dozens of books.

And the VTT does all the hard stuff for you. Every map, every room, every object, every player handout, every picture you might want to show your players, every monster, every NPC, all terrain, ALL of that is neatly placed automatically for you in the VTT. And it's all placed on the right layer so for example your players don't see a monster unless you click it and move it from the GM layer to the player layer if it's hiding or something. And it's all properly traced so that shadowing and darkness and light sources will all properly function, and all light sources are programmed in there so a torch casts bright light in X radius and dim light in Y radius and that's what that particular player can actually see unless there are other light sources, with objects like pillars properly blocking light as well.

So when it comes to game night, the only thing you need to do is plop your PC's avatars into the game. Even their character sheets from DNDBeyond will automatically move over with the Beyond20 free Chrome tool. Every spell is programmed to function with the touch of a button, every weapon, every skill, all of it is mapped properly.

And all of this is tweak-able for you if you want. You can easily change out challenges or treasure or even terrain and draw new stuff on it, in advance or on the fly.

But all the fiddly stuff is just taken care of for you. All that stuff that seems minor but can take hours to do right. And your time can be devoted to just playing.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 14, 2023, 11:36:19 AMI basically agree with Spinichcat that 'This sucks, nothing we can likely do about it and sheep are gonna continue being sheep'. But I don't agree with his '-And here is how thats a GOOD thing!'.

It's a "good thing" if you're remotely interested in putting out content for D&D, I guess. Since IDGAF about D&D beyond B/X or AD&D and haven't for many years, and have zero plans to do any publishing for the system, it's pretty much irrelevant to me. There was a whole little cottage industry of dopey $1 kewl-new-race crap type stuff on DMs Guild for the longest time, and I always thought it was sort of retarded because anyone who actually runs games could figure out something as good, if not better, in about five minutes. BUT the reality is 99% of the mouth breathers who play D&D literally do not care about making up anything unless it is approved by WotC. No amount of bitching on a messageboard with maybe 100 active members will change this undeniable fact: PEOPLE ARE LAZY AND WANT TO BE TOLD WHAT TO PLAY. If WotC comes out with D&D: The Retard Edition, you can bet your ass it'll be the only game in most stores that still even sell RPGs, regardless of how stupid it is. That is reality.

So, if you interpret "good thing" in the way the average moron does, then yes, any sort of acknowledgement of your stuff being used by WotC might actually be the ultimate payoff. It sucks for anyone unwilling to play along, though.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 14, 2023, 11:45:11 AM

But all the fiddly stuff is just taken care of for you. All that stuff that seems minor but can take hours to do right. And your time can be devoted to just playing.

... Why am I, the GM, there, then? If everything is done for me, what is my role?

On a very, deeply fundamental level, what you are describing is not the roleplaying hobby I am a part of. It feels like you're explaining to me why TV dinners will help me cook dinner every night.

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 14, 2023, 11:59:09 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 14, 2023, 11:45:11 AM

But all the fiddly stuff is just taken care of for you. All that stuff that seems minor but can take hours to do right. And your time can be devoted to just playing.

... Why am I, the GM, there, then? If everything is done for me, what is my role?

I mean, it's all the important aspects of being a GM are still for the GM to do. Running the adventure, running NPCs and monsters and challenges, making all the judgement calls.

QuoteOn a very, deeply fundamental level, what you are describing is not the roleplaying hobby I am a part of. It feels like you're explaining to me why TV dinners will help me cook dinner every night.

You felt drawing the terrain yourself and placing the stuff was the important part of being a GM? I don't. Roleplaying it all, making the judgements, describing the situation, reacting to what the PCs do, all of that is the job of the GM for me. Dealing with the fiddling bits of terrain and whether or not a PC does or does not have exact line of sight to something and figuring out exactly how far a light source casts light and whether or not a barrier gets in the way, it's nice to have a machine just do that fiddly stuff so I can focus on the human challenges of running an adventure.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 14, 2023, 12:06:39 PM

I mean, it's all the important aspects of being a GM are still for the GM to do. Running the adventure, running NPCs and monsters and challenges, making all the judgement calls.

"Running the adventure, running NPCs and monsters and challenges"... So long as they are exactly the NPCs, monsters, and challenges that were pre-packaged for me. What happens if my puppets cut their strings? Suddenly I don't have all those nicely prepared maps, gorgeously illustrated NPC portraits, etc. Or, rather, I have them and they're worthless.

Quote
You felt drawing the terrain yourself and placing the stuff was the important part of being a GM? I don't.

Neither do I. I feel they are at best completely unrelated to the role of a GM, and personally find them orthogonal to the role.

QuoteDealing with the fiddling bits of terrain and whether or not a PC does or does not have exact line of sight to something and figuring out exactly how far a light source casts light and whether or not a barrier gets in the way, it's nice to have a machine just do that fiddly stuff so I can focus on the human challenges of running an adventure.

I don't want that stuff, period. I don't want to play with people who are going to try to fight over exactly the precise angle of their view through a window to know if the light from the torch quite illuminates something, I don't want or need to have to worry about a machine telling me if a player can or can't walk through a fucking wall or something, I don't want to play a game where those are things that have to occupy my or my player's concerns. It's stupid-bad-wrongfun to me, and not the hobby I've been enjoying for 30 years.

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 14, 2023, 12:19:21 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 14, 2023, 12:06:39 PM

I mean, it's all the important aspects of being a GM are still for the GM to do. Running the adventure, running NPCs and monsters and challenges, making all the judgement calls.

"Running the adventure, running NPCs and monsters and challenges"... So long as they are exactly the NPCs, monsters, and challenges that were pre-packaged for me.

What? NO! Not at all. All the stuff is prepped so you can make those changes extremely easily. Our current adventures probably look nothing like what the writers planned for them. Our GM took what was there and modded it to fit his preferences and then as we PCs did stuff he adapted it to that But it was made super-easy for him to do because the setting and features and bones of basic stuff are all there already.

QuoteWhat happens if my puppets cut their strings? Suddenly I don't have all those nicely prepared maps, gorgeously illustrated NPC portraits, etc. Or, rather, I have them and they're worthless

Dude, we cut the strings from day one. He has enough material to immediately adapt to pretty much anything we throw at him. Right now we're travelling between two different adventure path materials because of that very thing.

QuoteI don't want that stuff, period. I don't want to play with people who are going to try to fight over exactly the precise angle of their view through a window to know if the light from the torch quite illuminates something, I don't want or need to have to worry about a machine telling me if a player can or can't walk through a fucking wall or something, I don't want to play a game where those are things that have to occupy my or my player's concerns. It's stupid-bad-wrongfun to me, and not the hobby I've been enjoying for 30 years.

I've been enjoying it since 1979. I love in-person games too. But most of our players from younger days moved to other states and this is the only way for us to play together still. And I was very skeptical but it's turned out to be a blast now for years.

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 14, 2023, 11:59:09 AM
... Why am I, the GM, there, then? If everything is done for me, what is my role?

On a very, deeply fundamental level, what you are describing is not the roleplaying hobby I am a part of. It feels like you're explaining to me why TV dinners will help me cook dinner every night.

Agreed, in that scenario anyone can be a GM (which might be the point) but the duties will be unfulfilling. So likely they'll have rent-a-GM options for a small fee.

Gang, I don't think you get what Spinachcat is saying here.

If you see the WotC OGL as a vehicle for writing for money or to hone your skills, it does make some sense. You just can't let yourself become attached to what you write for them.

As Harlan Ellison once said about writing for the pulps, "It is honest whoredom".

Quote from: MeganovaStella on January 13, 2023, 07:45:03 AM

WOTC EMPLOYEE POSTS WORST BAIT EVER, ASKED TO LEAVE

Spinachcat has more posts here than you by far, young'un.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 14, 2023, 12:42:18 PM
What? NO! Not at all. All the stuff is prepped so you can make those changes extremely easily. Our current adventures probably look nothing like what the writers planned for them. Our GM took what was there and modded it to fit his preferences and then as we PCs did stuff he adapted it to that But it was made super-easy for him to do because the setting and features and bones of basic stuff are all there already.

QuoteWhat happens if my puppets cut their strings? Suddenly I don't have all those nicely prepared maps, gorgeously illustrated NPC portraits, etc. Or, rather, I have them and they're worthless

Dude, we cut the strings from day one. He has enough material to immediately adapt to pretty much anything we throw at him. Right now we're travelling between two different adventure path materials because of that very thing.

So if my players go off the rails, I better hope I've bought other modules for them to hop onto the rails of, basically? I'm "good" as long as I've bought enough sets of rails?

Quote
I've been enjoying it since 1979. I love in-person games too. But most of our players from younger days moved to other states and this is the only way for us to play together still. And I was very skeptical but it's turned out to be a blast now for years.

My primary gaming group lives in three states spread over half the country. We play on Discord with a shared whiteboard for quickly doodling maps and moving tokens around when we need to. That's it. We don't need, want, or have any use for what a fancy VTT offers us. It would just complicate things and not improve our game.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 13, 2023, 02:43:04 AM
...
Very few authors in the history of D&D have ever created iconic settings, adventures, monsters or classes. Ask yourself, since WotC took over D&D, what not-WotC 3PP author has created something for D&D that has become really popular inside the D&D community? Try to name an iconic adventure created by any 3PP that you've seen run repeatedly at tables or even talked about often online? ...

Considering that even Eberron was done by an industry insider, one could make the claim that both TSR and WotC have never allowed something to become popular "inside the D&D community" without their official chop.

Their control over their own ecosystem has always been fairly tight.

Official D&D has always been a walled garden.

With DnDone/OneVTT - WotC is just shutting that gates and throwing away the key.

Quote from: tenbones on January 13, 2023, 10:24:41 AM
...
But given the fact that D&D as both a brand and genre has been done to death, so much so "death" is debated as being removed from many tables... I still beat the drum of "why the love?" and why for WotC of all things? Look I get that people 1) like the system 2) like the genre - but historically we as D&D fans have ever completely agreed on the details of how these two things interact. Otherwise there wouldn't be a bazillion flavors of OSR, and third-party d20 products floating out there.
...

Because for a great many more groups than we realize; D&D is literally all that they play.

If they are not playing D&D they will not play RPG's at all. 

For a lot of people, official D&D is the hobby; Period.

I've seen this on other forums where GM's lament that when they suggest trying out other games the majority of their players just walk.

The D&D or bust effect is real.

Now I have a real hard time wrapping my head around why anyone would look at the RPG hobby that way.

But I must acknowledge that it is real, and far more pervasive of an attitude that we would think at first.

I get that. I know all of that. But that's why it's on us as GM's to win them over.

I like everyone else used to be down with nothing but D&D. If I could convert, anyone can. But its not going to happen by itself. And everyone if fooling themselves if they thing there is going to be another D&D Umbrella to get under. OneD&D will *not* be D&D as we currently know it. The integration with VTT pulls it out of the arena of TTRPG's into its own thing.

YES I emphatically believe a lot of "D&D" Players will blindly follow it. However I believe the TTRPG hobby itself will be largely intact because the people that play non-D&D specific TTRPG's will continue to do so. So its incumbent on us to bring in those that want the TTRPG experience, and not the corporatized manicured hybrid videogame experience of OneD&D.

It's on US. And it's about to turn back into The Jungle again - where every company is going to have their own House System, and some might be d20-ish but they won't be the same. And that's GOOD. You get to eat what you kill, and the consumers will decide who lives and dies. D&D is, and always will be their own thing going forward.

In fact, at this point - they have nothing to do with us, unless you happen to want to play D&D as WotC defines it.

According to Gizmodo (who's been dead on so far with this) DDB cancellations between the OGL1.1 leak and the Friday announcement were in the "five digit range" and were the main reason Hasbro is balking. From what I've seen on their forums, no one's changed their minds and the WotC shills are getting more and more shrill.

Even it it's just the bare minimum to qualify as "five digits", that's 10k people putting their foot down. To me that is encouraging news... that's a lot of NotSheep who will be looking for new systems in the broader RPG market.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 14, 2023, 04:51:14 PM
According to Gizmodo (who's been dead on so far with this) DDB cancellations between the OGL1.1 leak and the Friday announcement were in the "five digit range" and were the main reason Hasbro is balking. From what I've seen on their forums, no one's changed their minds and the WotC shills are getting more and more shrill.

Even it it's just the bare minimum to qualify as "five digits", that's 10k people putting their foot down. To me that is encouraging news... that's a lot of NotSheep who will be looking for new systems in the broader RPG market.

What's also worth keeping in mind is all the people who never had DDB subscriptions to cancel, who may still be D&D 5e players (or DMs), but will likely move over to another system. You can also bet that people who cancelled their DDB subscription will be telling their friends they play D&D with about it, and trying to convince them to do so as well. A lot of people are still not happy with the way WotC has walked back, so those cancellations will probably continue.

Quote from: Spinachcat on January 13, 2023, 11:04:07 PM
The successs of OneD&D's digital walled garden plan depends on data we don't have. Perhaps WotC does have the data. They are clearly not interested in older fans nor traditional gamers, and perhaps that is because they are stupid and just chasing the dream of digital dollars OR it's because they have the data about GenZ gaming preferences.

Unless we can somehow access the data on the digital player base (especially their spending behaviors), we won't know why Woketards are betting so heavily on VTT D&D.

Here's the catch to this. We'll never know what the numbers are. But we do know what Walled Garden One D&D *is*. It's not a traditional TTRPG. It's a hybrid of what "we" do and this "VTT" emulation of D&D.

The reality is these things *already* exist. The experience that OneD&D is going to give will be less than what already occurs in that space. The proof is in the fact that D&D5e has already, in the height of its glory, been sitting alongside these games that are made by dedicated videogame studios, and there is no way that OneD&D is going to compete with them. There is a massive assumption that WotC can even produce such a system with that level of skill - they're *not* known for making videogames.

They *not* competition for Non-D&D players because anything outside of D&D is done largely by intent. They're banking mostly on the brand. Before the OGL debacle I was very sure that OneD&D would capture people that never experienced a well designed Mobile app that might get its meathooks in some players. Now? I'm not certain.

But literally nothing changes for non-D&D players, but what does change for those that *want* to get some writing experience, is that the TTRPG world is about to have the 800lbs gorilla lifted off their backs. D&D is GOING AWAY. The Walled Garden works both ways. They are walled off from us. And what theyr'e doing is not what we're doing. That vaccum *will* be filled - by what? No one knows. We're back to the Jungle. But now *everyone* is a lot more savvy about the rules of the Jungle. And it's going to be great.

Red in tooth and claw, and may the best games win. Who gives a fuck, now, about having D&D writing cred, when they will exist in their little psy-op monkey-pen squeezing the money out of their drones. Out here in the wild, we, me, you, everyone, can write for ourselves, others, the new companies that are leaving the D&D fold. There are opportunities galore in the next couple of years.

*and I say this literally after just getting a writing offer in the wake of this*. Anecdotal... sure. But it's directly due to this very phenomenon we're talking about. I honestly do not care what D&D does as a brand. If people want to go play their games - have fun. Fuck them. The rest of the TTRPG space now has to fend for itself. And that's a good thing. All the D&D dickriding days are *OVER*.

If you want to write and design - get to typing, because its not been this good since the drop of the first OGL. And you don't need D&D to do it, now more than ever. The money will be the same: the market will decide. I'm not saying it didn't mean anything to have D&D credentials. I'm saying it means a hell of a lot less.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 14, 2023, 11:36:19 AM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 14, 2023, 10:38:06 AMI'm still bragging that Hero Games used an idea of mine for Champions 2. And that was 40 years ago!

Exactly. Getting fan content into a main release is generally pleasant. Primarily when you're actually credited.

   Tends to lose some of its luster when you're cut from the paperback, though. :)

Quote from: tenbones on January 14, 2023, 05:27:12 PMIf you want to write and design - get to typing, because its not been this good since the drop of the first OGL. And you don't need D&D to do it, now more than ever. The money will be the same: the market will decide. I'm not saying it didn't mean anything to have D&D credentials. I'm saying it means a hell of a lot less.

The only thing that impacts me directly is that I use Foundry & Forge for my VTT experience, and if WOTC pulls 5e from them, then that may impact servers.

Quote from: tenbones on January 14, 2023, 05:27:12 PM
That vaccum *will* be filled - by what? No one knows. We're back to the Jungle.

It would be amazing if an OSR game filled the vacuum instead of Pathfinder.

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 14, 2023, 08:14:43 PM

Quote from: tenbones on January 14, 2023, 05:27:12 PM
That vaccum *will* be filled - by what? No one knows. We're back to the Jungle.

It would be amazing if an OSR game filled the vacuum instead of Pathfinder.

No. The OSR is out. (even though a few more people will take a look).

It will be between PF2 and the 5e clone that becomes ascendant.

I believe that if the 5e clone is halfway savvy they will beat out PF2 as well over time.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 14, 2023, 12:42:18 PM
What? NO! Not at all. All the stuff is prepped so you can make those changes extremely easily. Our current adventures probably look nothing like what the writers planned for them. Our GM took what was there and modded it to fit his preferences and then as we PCs did stuff he adapted it to that But it was made super-easy for him to do because the setting and features and bones of basic stuff are all there already.

QuoteWhat happens if my puppets cut their strings? Suddenly I don't have all those nicely prepared maps, gorgeously illustrated NPC portraits, etc. Or, rather, I have them and they're worthless

Dude, we cut the strings from day one. He has enough material to immediately adapt to pretty much anything we throw at him. Right now we're travelling between two different adventure path materials because of that very thing.

In my experience with a "smart VTT" this takes hours and hours and hours, more than doubling my preparation time for games. And that's with somebody else handling server maintenance, and somebody else doing bespoke maps for me - setting up visibility & lighting, finding the right monster stats, coming up with replacement monsters, custom treasure, finding better art than what WotC provided, pre-planning maps for the random encounters or side treks I'm building & iterating on them with my mapmaker - all that eats time and is stuff I don't have to do with pen & paper. Using a dumb VTT (Owlbear Rodeo 1) takes about half as much work; it's a little slower for me during play but a lot more pleasant for the players.

My family owns around a quarter of the official 5e WotC adventures, and they range from "outright bad" to "mediocre, need a lot of work to be worth playing"; if you're finding good things there, we're remarkably bad at choosing hardbacks.

Quote from: Naburimannu on January 15, 2023, 06:46:19 AM

In my experience with a "smart VTT" this takes hours and hours and hours, more than doubling my preparation time for games. And that's with somebody else handling server maintenance, and somebody else doing bespoke maps for me - setting up visibility & lighting, finding the right monster stats, coming up with replacement monsters, custom treasure, finding better art than what WotC provided, pre-planning maps for the random encounters or side treks I'm building & iterating on them with my mapmaker - all that eats time and is stuff I don't have to do with pen & paper. Using a dumb VTT (Owlbear Rodeo 1) takes about half as much work; it's a little slower for me during play but a lot more pleasant for the players.

My family owns around a quarter of the official 5e WotC adventures, and they range from "outright bad" to "mediocre, need a lot of work to be worth playing"; if you're finding good things there, we're remarkably bad at choosing hardbacks.

That more or less matches my experience with both VTTs and WotC's products as of late. Mistwell's description of the experience sounds like it's really only for (a) whales and (b) groups that are very... I'm trying to be polite here... "conventional" as WotC understands it. Or else, as you describe the process, people who are basically willing to mate GMing not just a hobby they spend time on, but practically their job.

No thank you to all of that.

On the other hand, I checked out Owlbear Rodeo - thank you! I think that might work better than the generic shared whiteboard we were using, while being really no more complicated or slow.

Quote from: Jaeger on January 14, 2023, 09:33:27 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 14, 2023, 08:14:43 PM

Quote from: tenbones on January 14, 2023, 05:27:12 PM
That vaccum *will* be filled - by what? No one knows. We're back to the Jungle.

It would be amazing if an OSR game filled the vacuum instead of Pathfinder.

No. The OSR is out. (even though a few more people will take a look).

It will be between PF2 and the 5e clone that becomes ascendant.

I believe that if the 5e clone is halfway savvy they will beat out PF2 as well over time.

I agree, if it happens at all (big question), then that is the way it will happen.  It's possible that during the immediate aftermath, there will be several competing option, all grabbing sub 5% of the eyeballs.  However, the network effect (however small in this case) will eventually kick in, and someone will win out.  We'll end up with an 80 pound gorilla in the much smaller market of people who do enjoy tabletop roleplaying (instead of talking about it or being trained monkeys). 

Whatever wins is not going to appeal to most of the people in this forum, because it's going to be rather bland and centered on the abandoned market, OR it's going to have flavor in spades that grabs attention but isn't everyone's cup of tea--just enough of a chunk to get the network going.  That's always the problem--need enough generic to appeal to wide audience and enough details and flavor to feel like a game instead of a toolkit.  Despite their waffling, Kobold Press could pull it off.  They do get gaming, and they've got a decent mix of generic/flavor, where at least some of the flavor will catch on.  Plus, it doesn't hurt that they were putting out better quality with 5E than WotC was.

The reasons that people hang on so long are many.  I think the thing that people miss is that even when you take out all the sturm and drang, sloppy rules, edition churn, etc.--there are still people, like me, that really enjoy hit points, AC, zero to hero, fantasy genre, etc.  It takes a lot to drive me away from D&D, because D&D produced by someone halfway competent and interested is a game that I can easily wrestle into doing what I want.  I've done it with every major version of the rules, and some spin offs.  Plus, up to a point, it's just easier to play with someone else's rules and tweak than it is to write your own.

Well, WotC did what seemed impossible a decade ago.  They've made me write my own game, which has all the things about D&D that I like, and none of the things that I dislike.  Call it a hearbreaker, call it what you will, it's giving me games I'm enjoying running, and the players in my groups are having a blast.  If it never spreads past that, at least I met the primary goal.  Whatever wins, I might take for an occasional spin as a change of pace.

Quote from: Naburimannu on January 15, 2023, 06:46:19 AM
In my experience with a "smart VTT" this takes hours and hours and hours, more than doubling my preparation time for games. And that's with somebody else handling server maintenance, and somebody else doing bespoke maps for me - setting up visibility & lighting, finding the right monster stats, coming up with replacement monsters, custom treasure, finding better art than what WotC provided, pre-planning maps for the random encounters or side treks I'm building & iterating on them with my mapmaker - all that eats time and is stuff I don't have to do with pen & paper. Using a dumb VTT (Owlbear Rodeo 1) takes about half as much work; it's a little slower for me during play but a lot more pleasant for the players.

In my view, all GM prep comes into two categories:  Play and Work.  Naturally, some things have some of each.  It's the total amount of play and work that I'm checking.

Play Prep:  Creating new concepts for creatures, spells etc.  Stringing them together into locations, NPCs, factions, goals.  Using the tools to make something.  Occasionally, combining the tools to make better tools, and/or tweaking the system to hum even better (when the rule worked fine before, but you are adjusting it to the campaign).

Work Prep:  Accounting (e.g. your creature formula is 5% idea and 95% calculating derived values and recording them), copying stat blocks, dealing with broken rules, working around design flaws so embedded into the system that they can't be fixed, etc.

For the kind of person who enjoys crafting, putting together static environments, and so on, then I suspect using the various VTT tools also comes under the heading of "play".  The same way some people spend as much time with video game mods and editors as they do playing it, I get that it is its own kind of reward.  For me, that stuff is all work.  Boring, tedious work that I only do to get to the play as soon as possible.  If my game prep becomes too much work, the outcome is burnout, and then no game for anyone.

Quote from: migo on January 14, 2023, 04:59:29 PMWhat's also worth keeping in mind is all the people who never had DDB subscriptions to cancel, who may still be D&D 5e players (or DMs), but will likely move over to another system. You can also bet that people who cancelled their DDB subscription will be telling their friends they play D&D with about it, and trying to convince them to do so as well. A lot of people are still not happy with the way WotC has walked back, so those cancellations will probably continue.

RPGers are notoriously picky about what games they play. I can't see a huge number of people playing a game they don't like just because the game they do like isn't meeting some nebulous, undefined standard of openness.


Watching video games has shown a pattern. Gamers will scream, bitch, and complain ...

and then preorder the next game as soon as it's announced.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 15, 2023, 10:28:30 AM

Quote from: migo on January 14, 2023, 04:59:29 PMWhat's also worth keeping in mind is all the people who never had DDB subscriptions to cancel, who may still be D&D 5e players (or DMs), but will likely move over to another system. You can also bet that people who cancelled their DDB subscription will be telling their friends they play D&D with about it, and trying to convince them to do so as well. A lot of people are still not happy with the way WotC has walked back, so those cancellations will probably continue.

RPGers are notoriously picky about what games they play. I can't see a huge number of people playing a game they don't like just because the game they do like isn't meeting some nebulous, undefined standard of openness.


Watching video games has shown a pattern. Gamers will scream, bitch, and complain ...

and then preorder the next game as soon as it's announced.

Sure, if it's more of the same that they like.

There's a strong indication WotC is trying to make the OneD&D experience very different from what we're all used to, to the extent that it isn't really D&D anymore. And if it goes the way it looks, they'll be competing with a bunch of established micro-transaction based MMORPGs.

That is of course a separate issue to the OGL, but if they're already sour about the OGL and on top of that D&D isn't D&D anymore, that's more reason for them to switch systems.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 14, 2023, 04:51:14 PM
According to Gizmodo (who's been dead on so far with this) DDB cancellations between the OGL1.1 leak and the Friday announcement were in the "five digit range" and were the main reason Hasbro is balking.

And this is how false rumors spread. From Gizmodo, "five digits worth of complaining tickets in the system". Which is something you cannot do if you canceled your account.

I made a complaining ticket too. I didn't cancel my account.

You can make a free DNDBeyond account and I strongly suspect the overwhelming majority of account cancelations were of free accounts. The paid account, which had actual digital books bought and only accessible if you have that paid account, likely are in wait and see mode. Why give away your books before you see if your game will continue or not, or if WOTC will back down or not? Like me, they issued complaints using the help tickets.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 15, 2023, 12:27:19 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 14, 2023, 04:51:14 PM
According to Gizmodo (who's been dead on so far with this) DDB cancellations between the OGL1.1 leak and the Friday announcement were in the "five digit range" and were the main reason Hasbro is balking.

And this is how false rumors spread. From Gizmodo, "five digits worth of complaining tickets in the system". Which is something you cannot do if you canceled your account.

I made a complaining ticket too. I didn't cancel my account.

You can make a free DNDBeyond account and I strongly suspect the overwhelming majority of account cancelations were of free accounts. The paid account, which had actual digital books bought and only accessible if you have that paid account, likely are in wait and see mode. Why give away your books before you see if your game will continue or not, or if WOTC will back down or not? Like me, they issued complaints using the help tickets.

Ahhh, Mistwell,  never change your wishful shilling ways.  My entire group of 5e players, most of whom have hundreds of dollars in purchased material on DnDBeyond, all canceled our monthly subscriptions.  WotC can't deny us access to the material we bought (and we can still see all of it), but not a single one of us is still paying anything to them.  So we're actually a net drain, as they are hosting for us for free.  But keep on shilling...