That's not true, concrete is fine to CtD fairies, as long as it is not covered in Cold Iron or overtly banal. In fact CtD fairies "wuv da science!" where 3 STEM abilities are tied to Realms, vs. two for much else. It's the being uninspired and boring that is suffocating to CtD fairies. So if you wanna make a point about avant garde Brutalism in Le Corbusier or De Gaulle Airport Roissy terminal 1, feel completely free!

I personally just want Crusader Kings 3 with a vampire variant patch.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1081916That's not true, concrete is fine to CtD fairies, as long as it is not covered in Cold Iron or overtly banal. In fact CtD fairies "wuv da science!" where 3 STEM abilities are tied to Realms, vs. two for much else. It's the being uninspired and boring that is suffocating to CtD fairies. So if you wanna make a point about avant garde Brutalism in Le Corbusier or De Gaulle Airport Roissy terminal 1, feel completely free!

I personally just want Crusader Kings 3 with a vampire variant patch.

Warhammer vampires are superior to WoD vampires.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081878How so, in this case? The IP was functionally dead, or at least stagnant.

To this day, Bloodlines remains one of the most popular computer RPGs ever, in the same league as Chrono Trigger and Planescape Torment, despite its age and the massive bugs which plagued it. Paradox could have followed that formula to the grave, refined it instead of replacing it, and taken advantage of the rich mod community which surrounds it. Because the IP isn't stagnant, it's classic in the same way Star Trek, Star Wars, and The Lord of the Rings are.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081878The only way to move forward with it seemed to be to functionally reboot it.

Then they should have rebooted it instead of changing the original timeline.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081878(Note I'm not saying I like all the changes made, just that I'm not sure it qualifies as "shitting on the IP" like the Starship Troopers movie did to the book, for example.)

I thought that movie was pretty good, just not Starship Troopers. I also think Conan the Barbarian, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, and New Battlestar Galactica surpass their originals. So there are exceptions.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1081910Chronicles of Darkness has plenty of interesting ideas that are arbitrarily blocked off because of the lore. (Not that I like one over the other.) It has way more sub-class bloat than World of Darkness ever did. It also, at least in theory, supports monster mash games (although in practice they aren't balanced at all).

Every time I try to implement a character concept in any of those games I find the system fighting me on it.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1081910Can you imagine Changeling: The Dreaming being chosen over Changeling: The Lost when it comes to video games?

Actually yes, as I think it would be easier to make a more playable game with.

The World of Darkness fanboys seem really toxic and snobbish lately. I left the community years ago, but I think it's gotten much worse by the time I decided to dip my toes back in. If you express less than glowing praise, the fanboys dogpile you into oblivion.

As someone who routinely criticizes WoD for having arbitrary world building that doesn't adequately represent the full diversity of vampire fiction and having a virtual monopoly over the urban fantasy gaming market to the point where what few alternatives exist don't even have discussion forums, I get this sort of response a lot. If fanboys aren't telling me that I'm wrong for having a different opinion and preferring alternatives, they're downvoting me to hell if the forum software allows it.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1082022Every time I try to implement a character concept in any of those games I find the system fighting me on it.

Really? And you don't see this problem in World of Darkness? Because where I'm standing, both have this problem in spades. Combined with the toxic community that tells me that's the only way to play, I left those games behind years ago.

You want to play a werewolf that isn't an eco-terrorist or a vice cop? Well fuck you, this is White Wolf.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1082022Actually yes, as I think it would be easier to make a more playable game with.

Indeed? What gives you that idea? Because from where I'm standing, Lost is probably the single best game White Wolf has ever made. Or the only good game if you're not charitable to them.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1082022To this day, Bloodlines remains one of the most popular computer RPGs ever, in the same league as Chrono Trigger and Planescape Torment, despite its age and the massive bugs which plagued it. Paradox could have followed that formula to the grave, refined it instead of replacing it, and taken advantage of the rich mod community which surrounds it. Because the IP isn't stagnant, it's classic in the same way Star Trek, Star Wars, and The Lord of the Rings are.

World of Darkness isn't anywhere near the same league as those properties.

It's not remotely classic as an IP. It appeals to a bunch of mostly American nerds who played as teens in the 90s.

Bloodlines owes its status to Troika's writers, not the IP it was licensed from.

The World of Darkness fanboys seem really toxic and snobbish lately. I left the community years ago, but I think it's gotten much worse by the time I decided to dip my toes back in. If you express less than glowing praise, the fanboys dogpile you into oblivion.

As someone who routinely criticizes WoD for having arbitrary world building that doesn't adequately represent the full diversity of vampire fiction and having a virtual monopoly over the urban fantasy gaming market to the point where what few alternatives exist don't even have discussion forums, I get this sort of response a lot. If fanboys aren't telling me that I'm wrong for having a different opinion and preferring alternatives, they're downvoting me to hell if the forum software allows it.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1082022Every time I try to implement a character concept in any of those games I find the system fighting me on it.

Really? And you don't see this problem in World of Darkness? Because where I'm standing, both have this problem in spades. Combined with the toxic community that tells me that's the only way to play, I left those games behind years ago.

You want to play a werewolf that isn't an eco-terrorist or a vice cop? Well fuck you, this is White Wolf.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1082022Actually yes, as I think it would be easier to make a more playable game with.

Indeed? What gives you that idea? Because from where I'm standing, Lost is probably the single best game White Wolf has ever made. Or the only good game if you're not charitable to them.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1082022To this day, Bloodlines remains one of the most popular computer RPGs ever, in the same league as Chrono Trigger and Planescape Torment, despite its age and the massive bugs which plagued it. Paradox could have followed that formula to the grave, refined it instead of replacing it, and taken advantage of the rich mod community which surrounds it. Because the IP isn't stagnant, it's classic in the same way Star Trek, Star Wars, and The Lord of the Rings are.

World of Darkness isn't anywhere near the same league as those properties.

It's not remotely classic as an IP. It appeals to a bunch of mostly American nerds who played as teens in the 90s.

Bloodlines owes its status to Troika's writers, not the IP it was licensed from.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1082022To this day, Bloodlines remains one of the most popular computer RPGs ever, in the same league as Chrono Trigger and Planescape Torment, despite its age and the massive bugs which plagued it. Paradox could have followed that formula to the grave, refined it instead of replacing it, and taken advantage of the rich mod community which surrounds it. Because the IP isn't stagnant, it's classic in the same way Star Trek, Star Wars, and The Lord of the Rings are.

Then they should have rebooted it instead of changing the original timeline.

Fair enough.

Hands down, World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness has the most toxic fan community of any RPG out there.

Does Exalted get rolled into that bunch?

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1082044Does Exalted get rolled into that bunch?

I never played Exalted and don't know anything about it, but given that it's White Wolf/Onyx Path, I would not be surprised if Exalted also had a very toxic fandom

The Exalted rules equate all forms of social interaction with beating down someone's mental defenses until they submit to you. Real social interaction doesn't work that way unless it's abuse, bullying or torture.

I wouldn't be surprised if the game attracts socially maladjusted misfits if this is how they perceive social interactions.

In any event, I don't understand how Chronicles of Darkness would fight a player more on character concepts than World of Darkness, or how Changeling: The Dreaming would make for a better video game than Changeling: The Lost. Anon hasn't given any examples of how this would be the case, yet.

If we're going to discuss limitations, I have a few to level at Vampire, in any edition.

Vampires all essentially follow the same pseudo-Ricean mold, unless you're using one of the token toolkit options in IIRC Requiem Chronicler's Guide or Wicked Dead.

Clans/bloodlines/etc are loosely analogous to D&D's classes (and sometimes prestige classes). You get a weakness or two and a specialty in three or four disciplines. The nature of the later varies, with every edition making it a cost break and sometimes a clause about exclusively or finding a teacher.

Every discipline is structured into 5 ranks for standard characters, and each rank has one power associated with it. In V5 you can select from multiple powers at each rank, but still limited to one per rank; some have other powers or discipline ranks as prerequisites. In Requiem 2e you can learn various additional powers called devotions that have discipline prerequisites, as well as exclusive merits which give various token benefits.

Many disciplines have had redundant effects, especially in Requiem's bloodline bloat. V5 attempts to solve this by folding disciplines together, although that raises the question of whether they're going too far in the other direction, considering that quietus effects are now available to the Tremere (as if sorcery wasn't overpowered enough already), obtenebration and necromancy are now folded into "oblivion," etc.

I'm not even going to mention blood sorcery because it's a huge headache to make sense of in any edition.

Clans/bloodlines/etc often have personality types and whole cultures arbitrarily assigned, even though most of the time they can't alter your personality. I've read someone suggest that the clans/bloodlines choose the PC rather than the other way around, however much that helps. Sect affiliation is a whole other can of worms, although Requiem simplifies things a bit by not giving a bunch of antitribu writeups for you to keep further track of. Otherwise this whole scheme leads to weird or annoying baggage like, I don't know, the Giovanni having a virtual monopoly over necromancy (at least prior to the Hecata taking over).

There's no reason why it has to be structured this way. There could be universal disciplines that aren't specialized in by any clan, or each clan could have more than three disciplines, or whatever. There could be more vampire types than just the pseudo-Ricean mold.

EDIT: Requiem's blood sorcery switched to a syntactic magic system, allowing you to make up rituals rather than rely on those included with the supplements. The problem here is that there's now no functional difference between different kinds of blood sorcery, like theban sorcery or crone witchcraft. Both can create basically the same effects.

If you want to have difference kinds of blood sorcery, then it doesn't make sense for them all to use the same Ars Magica techniques/forms. Something like Dark Ages: Mage's foundation/pillar system would be better if you want blood sorcery to follow the same basic rules while allowing different kinds to be diverse.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1082047The Exalted rules equate all forms of social interaction with beating down someone's mental defenses until they submit to you. Real social interaction doesn't work that way unless it's abuse, bullying or torture.

I wouldn't be surprised if the game attracts socially maladjusted misfits if this is how they perceive social interactions.

That description of social interaction fits the description of "leadership" held by the VPN of a job I quit last year. I was never so happy with that job as when I was summoned to her office for yet another "inspiring beatdown" and I opened the conversation with dropping my exit packet on her desk.

Actually there is a difference with blood magic.  

Theban Sorcery demands you to be at least humanity five to use all five levels of the sorcery.  Theban demands willpower and a material cost.  Finally the spells should have biblical themes with the empathise on retribution and scaring you to God.

Crone is just degrading and reduces your humanity.  In fact it eats away at it.  The cost is blood and lots of it.  Like one vitae per level of the spell.  The theme of the spells should be worst aspects of paganism.  Crows made of night, portals made if blood with baby bones, and summoning rituals via human sacrifice.

So yeah even if they share the same mechanics it doesn't mean the spells are the same.