Quote from: tenbones;1081426With Geist you need to play up the elements from Wraith *more*. The problem is then it has a very WW the Apocalypse feel... which is not necessarily bad... but it remains that the core concept of the Geist is bad in execution itself.

My spitball - If they made Geist where you remove the human element of the "fusion" - but you're playing a Spirit inhabiting the body of mortal(s) for a specific goal that might have to do with Stygian politics. THAT might be far more interesting. Because you could build the entire infrastructure of what the Dead are *really* trying to do - to the point where they have to burn their own resources to get into the living world to make happen to have outcomes. And of course there are natural obstacles to that on the living side. Which could include mediums, Mages, Werewolves etc... The key being the process of becoming, and coming to grips with being a Geist - much like a Vampire is a mortal suddenly thrust into this condition.  There should be some issue for the Geists - like they don't want to relinquish life to return to their Stygian masters, even if they're benevolent. That could be an interesting "pathos". But that would require a lot of thought to make those distinctions meaningful and playable.

I'm confident I could do it.

You should! That's an awesome idea.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1081398Speaking of combat, CoD2e probably failed to address a number of issues with CoD1e. Of course, your mileage may vary as to whether these are problems.

Yes. This is why I gave up on it:

Quote from: That blogSuppose a player puts 4 points into both an attribute and a skill used for some task. Since this is something that the player wants the character to be good at, he or she also spends a small number of experience points to get a specialty in it, which gives an additional +1. Finally, the character has some gear that gives an additional +2. This gives a subtotal of 11 dice, less the 5 so 6 dice are rolled. Since only one dice needs to come up as 8 or higher, the character has a 88% chance of success, and what I've outlined is a very moderate build for a character. It's not uncommon for characters to have 14 or more dice in a roll and that's still with normal human characters. Supernatural characters can have significantly more dice in their pools. In short, the maximum suggested allowed difficulty under the rules won't even slow down a character that's actually good at something.

The rest of the system is simply building on top of that bad foundation.

Thus why I went with a simple d20 roll with five different outcomes.  Uses one attribute which has a rating of 3 to 18.  To figure out TN (target number) you need to apply this formula attribute +/- modifiers = TN.  The objective is roll lower than TN.

Mind you I only tell people to roll when there is something actually at stake.  None of this fail and nothing happens type of rolls.  So failure does have repercussions.

Natural 20 = Critical Failure
Above TN = Failure
Equal to TN = Failure and Success
Below TN = Success
Natural One = Critical Success

That Aglondir is a solid foundation.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1081451Hell a mortal who returns from the dead and now have ghost powers would be more interesting than the weird fusion thing.

That is actually Kindred of the East.

(Except their energy winds down so they gotta borrow life energy from those around them... almost but not quite like vampires. And the type of energy borrowed matters as it is a means to center themselves (dharma) so they don't go crazy by remembering their return trip from Hell. Because "Hell is real, you just escaped it, and now you got a second chance to undo your damnation... through half-life damnation.")

Never played Kindred of the East, but that sounds kickass.

Quote from: Aglondir;1081525Interesting; I will need to look at that in more depth. The version I was thinking of was a series of forum posts on TBP that I no longer have. I can't recall much of it, other than it had a 5 x 5 axis. I can sort-of recall three of the guild concepts:

• Entertainer's Guild (Masquers? Troubadors?) that had a therapeutic as well as artistic purpose
• Explorer's Guild (Cartographers?) that were trying to map out the ever-changing Underworld
• Architect's Guild, who built structures that could (mostly) withstand Oblivion

The five guilds did not give you Kewl Powerz; rather they were social and philosophical approaches to the afterlife. "Build something that lasts" is a different motivation from "Let's see what's out there." You can probably tell this was tied to the Downstairs Game, so I don't know if it is necessarily the approach I would take per se.

The wraith project fanbook has factions which deal entirely with the upstairs game. I think most of them are easter eggs for Wraith: The Oblivion. Only some of then got full writeups before the fanbook went undefinite hiatus, but they can still be pieced together.

• The Order is a quasi-religious group that preaches focusing on the here and now while awaiting judgment day in the unknown future. They venerate Charun in the example passages, although I'm sure that regional variants may substitute Hades, Emma-O, Yamaraj, or whoever the local underworld god king was.
• The Believers are versions of still followed religions adapted for ghostly existence (the example used is Christianity, since the game is written for USA readers). They preach resolving your issues in order to move on, with first-hand accounts of such being recounted. This makes the fanbook much less grimdark than its predecessor, and even a bit darkly comedic as it is implied the only reason wraiths don't move on is sheer stubbornness (and the author intended the game to be a metaphor for "heartbreak" and "survival").
• The Freewraiths don't seem to have an organized belief system, besides rebelling against The Order. They fight an elaborate cold gang war with the Order called the "game of houses," because ghosts use the essence generated by anchors/haunted places to power their abilities and economy. At some point they acquired a monopoly over some aspects of the economy, which they enforce publicly.
• The Haunters are the token evil splat, although they have an actual philosophy even if they are antagonistic with the other factions.
• The Messengers style themselves guardian angels or even superheroes, which can put them at odds with the other factions in some cases. For example, the Orders prohibits killing the living under any circumstances.
• The Pardoners exist solely to prevent the shadows present in all wraiths from wreaking extra havoc, dealing with the rare incursions by the "damned". The lack of a codified Oblivion faction means the fanbook can get all creepy and mysterious with regards to this sort of thing; at one point it is mentioned that areas outside cities are death traps where you might get eaten by things from beyond or roped into a cult that worships them.
• The solitaries are any wraith unaffiliated with the factions, which means they aren't beholden but neither are they protected.

EDIT: There were also two short stories written for this project:
http://www.cattail.nu/wraithproject/archives/0410gsunnamed.html
http://cattail.nu/wraithproject/archives/0409gsslf.html

Quote from: Snark Knight;1081559Vampires are the ultimate embodiment of a privileged minority with absolute power, who take advantage of it to molest those below them on a nightly basis. That sure seems to be flying over the heads of the usual suspects who're surprisingly quick to dote on this when they'd be the first to burn down a 'problematic power fantasy', although I'm optimistic the writing team are at least self-aware enough to remember we're playing monsters.

So long as we don't end up with a Beasts situation where "Hunters are an embodiment of the rising alt-right neo-nazi facism in Drumpf's America, because Vampires are the REAL victims lashing out at their human abusers."

While vampires can be seen as a metaphor for those evil rich folks or capitalists or whoever, this isn't a perfect metaphor. They can be seen as an addiction metaphor too. In fact, one of the possible explanations for why some rich people refuse to pay their fair share to society is because they are addicted to acquiring wealth they could never hope to spend.

Quote from: Aglondir;1081601Yes. This is why I gave up on it:



The rest of the system is simply building on top of that bad foundation.

There's some things to unpack here.

Firstly, the blog mistakenly assumed that the maximum penalty allowed is -5, but that's actually only for individual penalties per source. There's actually no limit to how many penalties may be applied and stacked, only that each one cannot exceed -5.

Secondly, why do we want the characters to fail? What is the outcome? Does it just make the situation drag on or cause something else to happen? Because I just gave a spiel which criticized the whiff factor and praised a "nothing never happens" philosophy.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1081628That is actually Kindred of the East.

(Except their energy winds down so they gotta borrow life energy from those around them... almost but not quite like vampires. And the type of energy borrowed matters as it is a means to center themselves (dharma) so they don't go crazy by remembering their return trip from Hell. Because "Hell is real, you just escaped it, and now you got a second chance to undo your damnation... through half-life damnation.")

It may sound interesting to some, but it never seemed to gain wide appeal. I've heard anecdotes about the WoD community in Asia, and they seemed to have dumped KotE in favor of using Vampire for everything instead. Oddly enough, I also heard that some variation of the Hengeyokai system (i.e. all the different shapeshifters co-existing) was used instead of Werewolf's werewolf monopoly. And possibly that these were used together in a monster mash or something rather than the enforced conflict from the canon.

I think we're getting off topic.

Bloodlines 2 seems to be pushing the new thin-blood mechanics that were made part of the V5 core rules. Although the 90s books like Outcasts and Time of Thin-Blood introduced the basic ideas and mechanics, V5 not only gave more structure but also made them part of the core rules and metaplot.

If the game will be remotely congruent to the tabletop... Near as I can tell, the PC of Bloodlines 2 is going to be taking advantage of their thin-blood status to develop new discipline powers that were previously unavailable due to the arbitrary structure of the disciplines. Becoming a member of a clan later may, I don't know, involve a thin-blood alchemy ritual or something rather than cannibalizing a member of that clan as others have been theorizing.

But to be quite honest, I feel like Paradox wanted to make a new IP given all of the changes they've made. They're only maintaining continuity because of brand recognition. It is entirely possible that, in the future, Paradox will devise a new world of darkness if they feel that the current continuity cannot be changed or retconned enough for their business needs.

I mean, the Malkavians, among others, are an extremely niche idea for what is supposed to be a global political party or whatever the clans are.

It is also questionable how long their agreement with Onyx Path will last. The World of Darkness 4e and the Chronicles of Darkness 2e are directly competing with each other and V5. It does not make business sense to maintain them all at once. At best, everything should be sold as setting options for 5e.

I don't understand why Paradox hasn't expended the resources to get the rights to remaster Bloodlines 1. Remasters and retrogaming are a pretty profitable field right now. Even Activision/Blizzard remastered Starcraft 1.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1081731I don't understand why Paradox hasn't expended the resources to get the rights to remaster Bloodlines 1. Remasters and retrogaming are a pretty profitable field right now. Even Activision/Blizzard remastered Starcraft 1.

Well GOG posted a net profit of under $8k last year. Page 34 of Quarterlies.

Remastering and Retrogaming takes work to make these old games DRM free and update them for modern operating systems. So not very profitable. shocked me too.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1081731But to be quite honest, I feel like Paradox wanted to make a new IP given all of the changes they've made. They're only maintaining continuity because of brand recognition. It is entirely possible that, in the future, Paradox will devise a new world of darkness if they feel that the current continuity cannot be changed or retconned enough for their business needs.

Well the classic world did sort of end with the Time of Judgment (which I rather enjoyed).

QuoteIt is also questionable how long their agreement with Onyx Path will last. The World of Darkness 4e and the Chronicles of Darkness 2e are directly competing with each other and V5. It does not make business sense to maintain them all at once. At best, everything should be sold as setting options for 5e.

Are they still doing WoD 4e (X20th or whatever they're going with)? I thought that was effectively killed off.

@tenbones: ...wow. I did not realize GOG was running that razor thin.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081735@tenbones: ...wow. I did not realize GOG was running that razor thin.

I don't think *anyone* realized that. It's a real shocker. But they're about to get Warcraft 1 and 2 added to their list. That should net them some dinero.

What is GOG's revenue, though? The profit may sound low, but it's left over after paying for all the operating costs.

I'm not too sure about Warcraft causing too much impact. The games are still old and reflect the limitations of their time.

I'd be more interested in a remake on the remastered WC3 engine.

Quote from: tenbones;1081740I don't think *anyone* realized that. It's a real shocker. But they're about to get Warcraft 1 and 2 added to their list. That should net them some dinero.

I will admit that I saw that pop up in my email on Friday... and then I think I blacked out because the next thing I knew I had blown 15 bucks and they were downloading.

There's absolutely no way they're getting this done by 2020, let alone doing justice to the political themes they claim to want to address.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1081398If you already bought the relevant skills, I don't understand why you also need to buy a merit to use them effectively.

Neither do I, but it's incredibly common in RPGs.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1081559Vampires are the ultimate embodiment of a privileged minority with absolute power, who take advantage of it to molest those below them on a nightly basis. That sure seems to be flying over the heads of the usual suspects who're surprisingly quick to dote on this when they'd be the first to burn down a 'problematic power fantasy', although I'm optimistic the writing team are at least self-aware enough to remember we're playing monsters.

Self-awareness is the one thing I'm certain they lack, and I sometimes wonder if the only reason the usual suspects are all up in Vampire is because they think it's problematic and popular with their ideological opponents.

One of the reasons the original Bloodlines worked was because it didn't take itself too seriously. But the current #CtrlLeft is unable to take itself anything but, does not understand what parody is, and believes satire and irony are indoctrination tools. So I have little hope for anything other than a one sided propaganda piece where your character is severely punished for making the 'wrong' decisions.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1081731Near as I can tell, the PC of Bloodlines 2 is going to be taking advantage of their thin-blood status to develop new discipline powers that were previously unavailable due to the arbitrary structure of the disciplines.

It also creates a nifty little 'collect the stuff' subgame.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1081731But to be quite honest, I feel like Paradox wanted to make a new IP given all of the changes they've made. They're only maintaining continuity because of brand recognition.

Really does seem that way, and I'm getting really tired of companies shitting on IPs like this.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1081872Really does seem that way, and I'm getting really tired of companies shitting on IPs like this.

How so, in this case? The IP was functionally dead, or at least stagnant. The plot was done and resolved. The only way to move forward with it seemed to be to functionally reboot it. (Note I'm not saying I like all the changes made, just that I'm not sure it qualifies as "shitting on the IP" like the Starship Troopers movie did to the book, for example.)

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1081872There's absolutely no way they're getting this done by 2020, let alone doing justice to the political themes they claim to want to address.



Neither do I, but it's incredibly common in RPGs.



Self-awareness is the one thing I'm certain they lack, and I sometimes wonder if the only reason the usual suspects are all up in Vampire is because they think it's problematic and popular with their ideological opponents.

One of the reasons the original Bloodlines worked was because it didn't take itself too seriously. But the current #CtrlLeft is unable to take itself anything but, does not understand what parody is, and believes satire and irony are indoctrination tools. So I have little hope for anything other than a one sided propaganda piece where your character is severely punished for making the 'wrong' decisions.



It also creates a nifty little 'collect the stuff' subgame.



Really does seem that way, and I'm getting really tired of companies shitting on IPs like this.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081878How so, in this case? The IP was functionally dead, or at least stagnant. The plot was done and resolved. The only way to move forward with it seemed to be to functionally reboot it. (Note I'm not saying I like all the changes made, just that I'm not sure it qualifies as "shitting on the IP" like the Starship Troopers movie did to the book, for example.)

I'm not invested in the IP, so I don't hate the changes. I just find it weird they didn't make an AU spin-off or something to give themselves more freedom when it comes to lore.

Chronicles of Darkness has plenty of interesting ideas that are arbitrarily blocked off because of the lore. (Not that I like one over the other.) It has way more sub-class bloat than World of Darkness ever did. It also, at least in theory, supports monster mash games (although in practice they aren't balanced at all).

Can you imagine Changeling: The Dreaming being chosen over Changeling: The Lost when it comes to video games? The former literally makes mundane concrete a deadly poison to fairies.