Quote from: Anglachel;826354No seriously...i mean WTF...some people over on TBP are just...so out of sync with reality. And the funny thing is they think they are the enlightened and modern folk of today. It's hilarious. But also so sad.

It is disturbing when you see the attitudes on TBP and other places online reflected in real life pop culture. See, for example, The Daily Show. I can barely stand to watch that show anymore. I don't know if the writers are mostly SJW millennials or just pandering to them but its become far to much like what its detractors often painted it as being.

A GM plays the part of the rest of the world.  That means playing the wise and foolish, the prejudiced and the open-minded, the violent and the peaceful.

How we act in character as player or GM, how our world is shaped and the cosmology drawn, is no reflection on how we are in reality.  How foolish.

The whole idea that an appearance of a character with flaws, horrible ones even, that is not a cardboard cut - out villain makes the work somehow condone these behaviours, is idiotic beyond belief.

Thank Heavens these morons can't read anything that hasn't been transcribed into a comic book/film, or they'd start calling for ban of Balzac because Vautrin* dreamt of running a cotton plantation in antebellum South, and he wasn't mouth - frothing heinous.

*a certainly rather shady and evil character, but not one without good points raised regarding the society, even in his first appearance.

Quote from: Nexus;826170Games like Spirit of the Century aren't historical simulations but that doesn't mean I'd want the time period to be nothing more than an elaborate backdrop. Including some fantastic elements is one thing but tossing out major aspects of the proposed world for reason that seem trivial seems like a waste. May as well just set the game is a completely fictional world and passes up some opportunities for things I find fun.

The problem is a bit deeper than that.

To give an example - from what I remember, in CoC you always had a paragraph saying that while playing in the 30s, issues of race and xenophobia can be skipped if players are uncomfortable with it. And it's okay. But nowadays, you'll be more likely to find a paragraph that says they can be played out if they are okay with it. And it's a somewhat slight but noticeable shift in attitudes.

For a lot of people that claim that RPGs are art, they can not dare to step outside their tiny comfort zones, to try and truly experience a different world and view than they have, playing out their little avatars in little hugboxes of their own creation.

Fuck that.

If RPGs are an art by any sort of degree, they aren't meant to be comfortable, since art isn't meant to cuddle you in your beliefs. It's supposed to provoke you. If you can't handle someone playing out a perspective of, say, charitable racist Southern baron in 1830s, it's okay. But don't pretend you are better or more adult for that, because you are not. You are scared and/or scarred, and it's fine - but stop with your delusions of being nobler because you can't handle a "difficult" topic.

It applies to more than just issues of sensitivity in RPGs (and of course, goes way beyond the scope of this small yet important to us hobby), but that's the problem - everyone wants to be the true grown up sophisticated player, but at the same time, can't handle the actual "heat" of being an adult player. If your diet consists of McDonalds, don't pretend to be refined - cook something yourself, you bloody lazy oaf. So we have all sorts of mental gymnastics, to prove that we're all the same, equal players, really. No, we're not. Some of us are more...call it however you want. Ambitious, open minded, pretentious, exploratory - I don't care anymore at this point. Your Little Pony RPG is not equal to my Call of Cthulhu.

And the fact that you can apparently handle games about pirates raping eyesockets, or where sex is used for favours and XP, yet tremble at an idea of an -ist character appearing among the party, only speaks further to your pretentiousness, you bloody band of hipsters.

Quote from: LordVreeg;826358A GM plays the part of the rest of the world.  That means playing the wise and foolish, the prejudiced and the open-minded, the violent and the peaceful.

How we act in character as player or GM, how our world is shaped and the cosmology drawn, is no reflection on how we are in reality.  How foolish.

You sir, are ON POINT! +1

@Anglachel - I saw your attempts over there trying to reason with them before the inevitable happened. Welcome home old boy.

Quote from: Rincewind1;826395If RPGs are an art by any sort of degree, they aren't meant to be comfortable, since art isn't meant to cuddle you in your beliefs. It's supposed to provoke you. If you can't handle someone playing out a perspective of, say, charitable racist Southern baron in 1830s, it's okay. But don't pretend you are better or more adult for that, because you are not. You are scared and/or scarred, and it's fine - but stop with your delusions of being nobler because you can't handle a "difficult" topic.

It applies to more than just issues of sensitivity in RPGs (and of course, goes way beyond the scope of this small yet important to us hobby), but that's the problem - everyone wants to be the true grown up sophisticated player, but at the same time, can't handle the actual "heat" of being an adult player. If your diet consists of McDonalds, don't pretend to be refined - cook something yourself, you bloody lazy oaf. So we have all sorts of mental gymnastics, to prove that we're all the same, equal players, really. No, we're not. Some of us are more...call it however you want. Ambitious, open minded, pretentious, exploratory - I don't care anymore at this point. Your Little Pony RPG is not equal to my Call of Cthulhu.

And the fact that you can apparently handle games about pirates raping eyesockets, or where sex is used for favours and XP, yet tremble at an idea of an -ist character appearing among the party, only speaks further to your pretentiousness, you bloody band of hipsters.

I couldn't have said this better. I recently re-organized my group. I run a RPG's that tackle very morally ambiguous things on a variety of levels. Even my swashbuckling campaigns have a potentially dark undertones - it's up to the PC's to decide what they're about. I don't play with Alignment - I want my players to do actions that force themselves to do good or evil, or stand by and watch - by intent.

I don't pull punches about what my world's conceits are about - and most of all - I don't tell my PC's how they're supposed to react. The Mods at the TBP, and the players they coddle play a very different kind of game than we do.

I played games like that - when I was in 7th grade. But at some point I said "yes, I fuck the Succubus, because I read in Book of Lairs you can become a Greater Vampire... like her Drow boyfriend. Brian has a helm of Opposite Alignment he can slam onto my head afterwards. Can I do that?"

Jicky, sure, but it's offroading (and hey I was young) from the prescribed adventure. That's what weirds me out - these guys either 1) don't know better or 2) want such a iron-fisted grip on a prescribed experience that is tantamount to what you mentioned: a Happy Meal experience without being challenged.

That's some serious issues right there. RPG's are about conflict. To the degree of conflict they're about is dependent on your GM

I'm interested in fun not art. Games that handwave what feels like prominent aspects of the setting's mood and flavor just aren't as much fun for me. Its not a requirement in the sense every group has to do it and those that don't should feel bad. But don't tell me if I do have "-isms" in my game and won't change that that I am a bad person who should feel bad about playing bad game.

Quote from: tenbones;826548@Anglachel - I saw your attempts over there trying to reason with them before the inevitable happened. Welcome home old boy.

Well, thanks. But i think you mistake me for someone else I have not tried to reason with the SJWs and OutrageBrigade...i know that's futile...they are kind of the Borg of rpg.net

You know what i find funny? None of those mind-terrorists seem to have a problem with violence...sometimes i find that so...weird.
[sarcastic exaggeration mode] So to play a racist is bad, to play someone who hates women/gay-people/what-have-you is bad...but playing a murder-hobo...that's totally normal and ok...because yeah, being mean to some minorities is sooooo much worse than killing people...yeah...sure.[/sarcastic exaggeration mode]

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Nexus;826558I'm interested in fun not art. Games that handwave what feels like prominent aspects of the setting's mood and flavor just aren't as much fun for me. Its not a requirement in the sense every group has to do it and those that don't should feel bad. But don't tell me if I do have "-isms" in my game and won't change that that I am a bad person who should feel bad about playing bad game.

Yeah, this I agree with.

Nothing wrong with having prejudice in a game, but nothing wrong with lacking it, either.

There is a tendency for some people to say that games are more deep and meaningful if they are darker - especially visible from, say, White Wolf - but also often from fans of other dark games like Call of Cthulhu and/or Warhammer. The implication is that throwing in more murder, torture, slavery, prejudice is somehow supposed to make a game more important and/or artistic. I think that's crap.

I'm also interested in fun, not art. But what I find is that the older I get, the more I like my game-worlds to be like the real world. That includes the flaws, like prejudice.

Quote from: jhkim;825891Agreed, and it seems to me that the OP is arguing against a straw man.

Yes, there are settings like Star Trek where many modern-day prejudices like human racism and sexism are largely absent. However, that doesn't mean there is zero prejudice in that setting - it's just different than common real-world prejudices.

In practice, I don't find any problem playing in the Star Trek universe - and I find there is plenty of conflict and prejudice.

As I read it, I was assuming the OP was more talking about fantasy or historical settings, that try to whitewash things like racism or sexism.  Where you can play a woman or a non-majority racial group and be treated exactly like anyone else, and any kind of struggle against prejudice isn't part of the play, because the setting is entirely egalitarian.