Since V:tM has very limited choices which the Camarilla are pretty much Protestants and Atheists while the Sabbat are hardline Catholics, I noticed there isn't any room for Vampires who are of non-Christian faiths such as the other Abrahamic faiths like Judahism and Islam, but also Pre-Christian 'Pagan' faiths like Roman-Greek, Egyptian, Norse, Celtic, Slavic, Basque, and also even Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc which the biggest problem that VtM was written not only in a heavily Christian-centric worldview but also Eurocentric as well which is a factor that never properly covered those topics without appropriating them.
or basically I was wondering how a "Circle of Crone" type sect would work for Pagan Vampires who don't belong in either the Camarilla or Sabbat well especially Vampires who don't buy into the Noddest myth because of it's Abrahamic roots?
One of the many topics with the same subject matter. You won't find much wod fans on this forum
Anyway, there might be some paganism in the Gangrel clan. Maybe the Lhiannan (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Lhiannan) bloodline?
I think the Bahari or the Path of Lilith have some simularities with the Circle of the Crone philosophy. Even though Lilith is abrahamic.
Again I am not a fan, but Requiem handles this much better. There is no absolute truth, any myth might be true.
Nope, wrong. They are all there. First clans and sects I beelined to. It took me time to come back to appreciate the Camarilla, Anarch, Sabbat dynamic.
Ashirra, an entire muslim vampire sect, renaming multiple favorite clans. The shifted clan dynamic, and emphasis on humanity, community, & faith changes things heavily. Book: Veil of Night.
Laibon, sub-Saharan African vampire sect, renaming a few favorite clans and introducing several more. Introduce new faith systems that reshape vampiric potential behavior and different interpersonal dynamic with kine community. Book: Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom
Andu, Gangrel, & Asian steppes vampires, mixed with Kuei Jin encounters, along the Silk Road and Mongol Conquest. Book: Blood & Silk.
S & SE Asian Cainites, Ravnos, Nagaraja, etc. Expanded over several books, notably following clan and bloodline info.
Kuei Jin, hungry ghosts. Another completely different cosmology (only the Ashirra hold onto Abrahamic ideas), but for a completely different non-Cainite vampire. These hungry ghosts holds various competing sects around Asia, mainly Quincunx China, Green Courts Korea, House Bishamon & Genji Japan, Thunder Courts in India, and Golden Courts in SE Asia — all competing sects like Camarilla & Sabbat are to each other. Books: Kindred of the East, Heresies of the Way (lost dharmas book), 1000 Hells...
Followers of Set clan are ancient Egyptian mythology. Books: Followers of Set clanbook
And then there's the Dark Ages material, several of which cover the ages of paganism, Roman empires, West & East, and IIRC talk of which Cainites influenced Viking Scandinavia, the ancient Gangrel monstrosity of Russian lands, etc.
Is there any non-Christian cultural thing in particular about oWoD you wanted to do?
Yep, oWoD was pretty comprehensive about turning every realworld faith into a splat-worthy stereotype occult superhero philosophy.
Quote from: TristramEvans;826699Yep, oWoD was pretty comprehensive about turning every realworld faith into a splat-worthy stereotype occult superhero philosophy.
I might have missed some Oceania stuff, but it's likely out there. Hey, they even covered Nunnehi, Native American fairie/changelings. Pretty thorough!
Quote from: Cryptofblood;826667Since V:tM has very limited choices which the Camarilla are pretty much Protestants and Atheists while the Sabbat are hardline Catholics, I noticed there isn't any room for Vampires who are of non-Christian faiths such as the other Abrahamic faiths like Judahism and Islam, but also Pre-Christian 'Pagan' faiths like Roman-Greek, Egyptian, Norse, Celtic, Slavic, Basque, and also even Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc which the biggest problem that VtM was written not only in a heavily Christian-centric worldview but also Eurocentric as well which is a factor that never properly covered those topics without appropriating them.
or basically I was wondering how a "Circle of Crone" type sect would work for Pagan Vampires who don't belong in either the Camarilla or Sabbat well especially Vampires who don't buy into the Noddest myth because of it's Abrahamic roots?
I have, in addition to V:tM, also Changeling: The Dreaming and Scion.
For the Mythology-based Religions, i'd read up on them in Scion or elsewhere if necessary, and draw concepts and ideas from there.
Then, i'd make some new clans, representing the Pantheons or even certain concepts within each Pantheon, and give them Disciplines that fit their concept or themes instead of those in the Camarilla or Sabbat.
If need be, i'd also mix in the Arts from Changeling, and make them fuelled by Blood instead of Glamour and Bunks, effectively turning them into Disciplines instead (i'd ignore the cantrip references to "Realm", as they'd be able to affect anyone in line of sight, perhaps with a restriction on distance as well).
Oh, i'd also break up the Thaumaturgy paths into separate Disciplines, to have more Diciplines to choose between for designing the Pagan Clans.
EDIT:
Seems you have already gotten more competent advice already.
^_^
I've sometimes thought that perhaps Noddism is something almost unique to the Sabbat. The Sabbat was formed in Europe, in the middle ages, by relatively young vampires. They all grew up and were mortals in a strongly Christian culture, so it stands to reason that the religious cult that is the Sabbat would be a Christian one.
The Camarilla, on the other hand, was created by elders, who in the middle ages likely included many vampires whose mortal days predate Christianity. So the Camarilla became secular, to avoid conflict between the various forms of paganism along with the Christianity of its members. So perhaps among the Camarilla, who aren't really that concerned with the idea of Caine or Antediluvians, paganism is common and accepted - especially by the very old or very young.
Quote from: Opaopajr;826697Laibon, sub-Saharan African vampire sect, renaming a few favorite clans and introducing several more. Introduce new faith systems that reshape vampiric potential behavior and different interpersonal dynamic with kine community. Book: Kindred of the Ebony Kingdom
I think the Laibon are based on "Darkest African" stereotypes most likely not to mention the book's tendacy of pointing their mythology as 'wrong' while the white colonialists one as "right" which is the Noddest mythology.
Quote from: Opaopajr;826697Kuei Jin, hungry ghosts. Another completely different cosmology (only the Ashirra hold onto Abrahamic ideas), but for a completely different non-Cainite vampire. These hungry ghosts holds various competing sects around Asia, mainly Quincunx China, Green Courts Korea, House Bishamon & Genji Japan, Thunder Courts in India, and Golden Courts in SE Asia — all competing sects like Camarilla & Sabbat are to each other. Books: Kindred of the East, Heresies of the Way (lost dharmas book), 1000 Hells...
This is my favorite which the Kuie-Jinn and the entire "Kindred of the East" setting are based on racist exoticism of East Asia which the west has a habit merging East Asia into one Pan-Asia without regarding and respecting the cultures that it originally belonged to, not to mention everything else about the Kuie-Jinn are based on racist stereotypes of not only Asians but also their culture as well even getting their religion and mythology wrong as well. I think everything else can be explained this article (https://arsmarginal.wordpress.com/2013/03/22/kuei-jin-the-exotic/).
Quote from: Opaopajr;826697Followers of Set clan are ancient Egyptian mythology. Books: Followers of Set clanbook
The Followers of Set has really nothing to do with Ancient Egyptian mythology, but more like they ripped it straight out of Conan the Barbarian (since when it had to do with Snakes?) and appropriated Egyptian imagery along with it and not to mention delegitimizing the Egyptian religion saying that Set is actually just some Antediluvian while the Noddest mythology reigns supreme as the "truth" atop of that.
Quote from: Opaopajr;826697Is there any non-Christian cultural thing in particular about oWoD you wanted to do?
Well first of all, the Kuie-Jinn, Laibon, probably everything listed in this post are all based on "Captain Ethnic" stereotypes which pretty much none of them I want to use due to it's racist roots. Maybe I'm pretty much on my own on this I guess....
The truth is, there is so many problematic elements in the cWoD it's hard to count...
Have you read those works, or just speak of your "received knowledge" of them?
Kindred of the East very much has internal conflict between the courts/sects and it is very much not a pan-East Asian homogeny. The hatred towards the Japanese houses is played up, the Quincunx (Chinese) patronizing bigotry to "heretical dharmas" and S & SE Asian kindred is quite present — even when it is S. Asia where the basis of the cosmology of kuei jin salvation derives. The list goes on and on, and that's just one of the groups you dismissed out of hand.
Again, put away what you think you know, or what others fed you, and learn for yourself.
You know, if you're not crazy about the idea of a setting where the Abrahamic mythology of Eden, Adam and Eve, Caine and Abel etc. is mostly Objectively Right, I dare say Vampire: the Masquerade might not be the right game for you.
And truth be told, Requiem (at least 1e, haven't read 2e/B&S) has a Christian covenant (Roman Catholic, really, peculiar vampiric heresy notwithstanding) and sort of catch-all "pagan" covenant. The covenant books offer some variety within the covenants; I felt Crone fared better but Lancea was sort of all over the place with the Protestant and Jewish and Muslim sub-covenants.
Still, I feel Requiem, by dint of not being wedded to an overarching apocalyptic metaplot, gives me more leeway to come up with original stuff. I love having only a few clans but I wish we had a ton of covenants.
Quote from: Opaopajr;826734Have you read those works, or just speak of your "received knowledge" of them?
Kindred of the East very much has internal conflict between the courts/sects and it is very much not a pan-East Asian homogeny. The hatred towards the Japanese houses is played up, the Quincunx (Chinese) patronizing bigotry to "heretical dharmas" and S & SE Asian kindred is quite present — even when it is S. Asia where the basis of the cosmology of kuei jin salvation derives. The list goes on and on, and that's just one of the groups you dismissed out of hand.
Again, put away what you think you know, or what others fed you, and learn for yourself.
I think you're still missing the point that the very existence of Kuei Jin is still racist and I doubt you even read that article I've linked to explaining why.
For example, I think the better alternative is to have Masquerade vampires in East Asia while the Mythological Accurate "Ghost Immortals" or "Gui-Xian" can be the Kuie-Jinn's replacement.
Quote from: The Butcher;826743You know, if you're not crazy about the idea of a setting where the Abrahamic mythology of Eden, Adam and Eve, Caine and Abel etc. is mostly Objectively Right, I dare say Vampire: the Masquerade might not be the right game for you.
And truth be told, Requiem (at least 1e, haven't read 2e/B&S) has a Christian covenant (Roman Catholic, really, peculiar vampiric heresy notwithstanding) and sort of catch-all "pagan" covenant. The covenant books offer some variety within the covenants; I felt Crone fared better but Lancea was sort of all over the place with the Protestant and Jewish and Muslim sub-covenants.
Still, I feel Requiem, by dint of not being wedded to an overarching apocalyptic metaplot, gives me more leeway to come up with original stuff. I love having only a few clans but I wish we had a ton of covenants.
First of all I disagree with the first statement since I think Masquerade can be changed. Or maybe you're only confirming one of the major problems I have with Masquerade but however as for the 'alternative'....
Of course as much there's elements in Requiem I like (the covenants, etc) but still it also has alot of problems such as the Vampires there are much weaker (since the disciplines are less combat sufficient), Fog of Eternity, Predator's Taint, Danse Macabre, and alot of elements make it even more unforgivable than Masquerade is by comparison. Basically I'm ignoring Requiem and I only have Masquerade to work with.
I think you might have to make it all up. If you base it on any real world cultures/ideas/reality, then you will be appropriating and exploiting. Hmmm, did they also appropriate abrahamic religions et al?
Well damn, the whole thing is a black and white shit pile of appropriations. Monte Cook's WoD might be a bit better, as it is from his imagination (but he is white, and a blonde a that. Oh no, he is thinner than he used to be. That can't be good!).
Is this a troll statement in a troll thread? I'm not even sure myself.
Quote from: Cryptofblood;826727
Can you mention anything at all within fiction and games, that isn't based on stereotypes?
Sure, a very few things here and there breaks stereotypes, but the first breaking of stereotypes usually result in exotification.
The second breaking of stereotypes, away from exotification, usually results in a mix of appropriation and mis-appropriation.
After that, the following step is actually education, like ... 25 years ago, people in the west used to think "sushi" meant "raw fish", but today people generally know that raw fish is named something else, and that sushi is a dish with rice that may or may not include raw fish.
Essentially, stereotypes, exotification and appropriation is just stages towards actually getting truly familiar with different cultures.
Why do people play Vampire at all?
Vampires are exotic, at least to begin with.
No matter whether they are "west-based" or "east-based", they are
exotic.
Sure, it is also an escape from reality, but so are D&D, Lord of the Rings, or any game within the supers- or mecha-genres.
So why Vampires specifically?
Exotism.
If one should really hardline the "not playing as anything exotic"-thing, then no one could play as anything except possibly a version of themselves.
But that would also be disastrous as the act of playing as something one is not is often something that is required for anyone to grow as living being, to develop empathy, to see things from someone else's perspective, and so on.
Someone may say, that exotification is not the same as the thing being exotic.
But to the one doing the exotification, the exotified thing is indeed exotic.
"Exotic" is a definition very much based on opinions, and once something stops being exotic, it also tends to get less interesting.
Your real problem is that you're trying to analyse an RPG, which usually are a bit of a kitchen sink of popculture, and demand it is Objectively Right According To Your Truth, rather than accept it as a fictional world with fictional beings and fictional laws of the universe. It's not like vampires aren't overall stereotypes based on Dracula and Anne Rice.
Best of luck in making My Little Vampire: Drinking is Magic
With words like "appropriating" and "problematic" I doubt there will any actual conversation going on, but you do know that once you decide to include Caine and Lilith in a vampiric cosmology and include mythical places like Enoch, that you're "getting wrong" all the Abrahamic Faiths and all of Classical and European history too, right?
In other words, since vampires aren't real, you're stomping all over everyone's reality when you weave them into the backdrop of everything.
WoD doesn't even begin to limit itself to culturally accurate depictions of vampires from different european cultures, so is there some reason it should limit itself to culturally accurate depictions of vampires from non-european cultures?
Quote from: Cryptofblood;826746I think you're still missing the point that the very existence of Kuei Jin is still racist and I doubt you even read that article I've linked to explaining why.
For example, I think the better alternative is to have Masquerade vampires in East Asia while the Mythological Accurate "Ghost Immortals" or "Gui-Xian" can be the Kuie-Jinn's replacement.
Oh, I read it before. Thought it was crap then, think it's crap now. All of WW oWoD stuff is based on hodgepodge hearsay mythology spoken ex cathedra — that's the point, all the stubborn elders think their interpretation is the one and only truth and everything else is dismissible crap.
That friction — between old & young, between East & West, between Europe & everyone else, between competing perspectives of truth, etc. — is the point.
I also think your question here is completely disingenuous because if you already knew of these WW creations and still speak in your OP as if they didn't exist, then you are obviously trolling. Either a) you didn't know and I was informing you now, or b) you did know and dismissed it out of hand, and thus spoiling for your expected answer already in your head. And if it is b), and you already knew you are going to have to create your own interpretation of non-Christian vampires from scratch, then the whole point of this OP is, "Guess what I'm thinking! Nuh-uh, didn't guess right!"
You are otherwise insisting on something that you know is not true (that WW did not create non-Christian vampire material), in order to have posters here dance about and entertain you I presume. And as adults many of us here could really care less about your feelings on this matter, versus
the fact those products do exist. That's an issue of existence versus perceived value. You have your viewpoint, that's nice, and still no one will care until you actually make and run your own RPG campaign.
So why are you wasting all of our time? We already have a forum to hash out your own creations ("Design, Development, & Gameplay"). Go there, drop Storyteller system like a bad habit, and go be productive already.
Quote from: Opaopajr;826883You are otherwise insisting on something that you know is not true (that WW did not create non-Christian vampire material), in order to have posters here dance about and entertain you I presume.
Well, since making any complaints about WW on purple will get the OP icepicked, fishing for grognards.txt quotes is all that's left.
But that's so sad and lame compared to making published stuff your own (or making your own stuff) and running it. That's like bitter non-gamer territory, except out in the cold from their old clique. I'd like to give some benefit of the doubt, hopefully to stop shitty old forum habits (i.e. passive-aggressive bickering topics) and actually create playable material.
This is a whole new forum. Go collaborate & build something beautiful...
Quote from: The Butcher;826743You know, if you're not crazy about the idea of a setting where the Abrahamic mythology of Eden, Adam and Eve, Caine and Abel etc. is mostly Objectively Right, I dare say Vampire: the Masquerade might not be the right game for you.
Agreed. Masquerade has a lot of things going on, but the central myth is abrahamic. I don't think Masquerade is racist. That's just pc bullshit made up by quickly offended people. But Requiem might fit better.
Quote from: The Butcher;826743And truth be told, Requiem (at least 1e, haven't read 2e/B&S) has a Christian covenant (Roman Catholic, really, peculiar vampiric heresy notwithstanding) and sort of catch-all "pagan" covenant. The covenant books offer some variety within the covenants; I felt Crone fared better but Lancea was sort of all over the place with the Protestant and Jewish and Muslim sub-covenants.
The LS covenant was just bad. They kinda retconned it in the 2nd edition removing the muslim and jewish roots. Those groups (and all the crone religions) deserve an own covenant. Same goes for all the Carthian ideologies.
Quote from: The Butcher;826743Still, I feel Requiem, by dint of not being wedded to an overarching apocalyptic metaplot, gives me more leeway to come up with original stuff. I love having only a few clans but I wish we had a ton of covenants.
You have some more in Danse Macabre. Most of them are a bit arty farty though.
You guys got trolled!
Rpg.net forum invasion..?
LOL
There's a racist from RPGnet appropriating me! Where are my 2/2 First Strike White Knight cards for me to play?!?!?!? zomg!!!
I've said it before, and I will probably say it again ...
As a practicing Catholic and a student and devotee of medieval theology and philosophy, I could get a lot of mileage about complaining about "appropriation" and "erasure" in the hobby's two biggest games--D&D and Vampire. :D
But I reject a lot of the premises, although I reserve the right to be annoyed when they try to do something with Christianity and get it wrong. :)
Most of the reason that the Year of the Lotus is lambasted is not because it doesn't fit foreign mythology, but because every description of a foreign culture was very badly researched and exoticized. The books even state that the theme is "exoticism" despite the fact that PCs are supposed to be natives of the countries the books are set in. There's also the whole "Asia is another planet" meme that informed the books. The shapeshifters are organized into a hegemony found nowhere else on the planet, the vampires and changelings are completely different entities, and the local technocrats are schismatic.
In my opinion, the East should be treated just like the West: everyone is basically human and no amount of guilt-ridden traditions will change basic human psychology. This should be obvious to anyone who has watched one of those "I moved to a foreign country" channels on Youtube. We don't need special snowflakes to make a foreign country interesting.
Here's my opinion of the splats in general:
- Kindred of the East: Just make an Asian version of Ebony Kingdom and call it a day. That said, Ebony Kingdom was just as horribly racist and badly researched.
- Hengeyokai: There are so many rich cultures you could make a dozen new werewolf tribes rather than consigning the entirety of East Asia to the Stargazers and Hakken. The whole "changing breeds working together" thing should really have been exported back to the core rules rather than using it as an excuse for orientalism.
- Eight Million Dreams: We couldn't just have regular Gallain why exactly?
Quote from: tenbones;826948LOL
There's a racist from RPGnet appropriating me! Where are my 2/2 First Strike White Knight cards for me to play?!?!?!? zomg!!!
Nobody tapped 2 white mana. But the card you are looking for is Black Knight, since he has Protection Versus White.
So basically Masquerade portrays other cultures too stereotypical and Requiem is too low-powered?
What would you settle for? A high-powered vampire game with a realistic portrayal of other cultures and beliefs?
Maybe you should stick with the Masquerade rules and use the Requiem setting? Replace generation with blood potency? You could mine Ancient Mysteries, Ancient Bloodlines and maybe Wicked Dead (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/61284/Ancient-Mysteries?filters=0_0_1800_0_0) for some vampire cultural info that isn´t western?
Personally I find those books really dry, but it might be something you are looking for. I like the plot hooks in Ancient Mysteries, but I could do without a lot of the info. My nwod issues. Too much info and not the right kind of info.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;826955Most of the reason that the Year of the Lotus is lambasted is not because it doesn't fit foreign mythology, but because every description of a foreign culture was very badly researched and exoticized. The books even state that the theme is "exoticism" despite the fact that PCs are supposed to be natives of the countries the books are set in.
Well, seriously, they couldn't even manage an accurate take on Britain in Changeling, no reason to assume they'd do any better with orientalism. That said, its "The World of Darkness", which is an easy catch-all explanation that things are whatever they want them to be, and what White Wolf wanted them to be was appealing to teenage Hot Topic customers.
I don't share most of the OP's particular concerns, but WW's been known to screw up in this particular arena in the past (can we say WoD:Gypsies), but the it also hit at least one home run (Charnel Houses of Europe: The Shoah). In any case, I don't see much to be gained from this particular line of argumentation.
Quote from: Cryptofblood;826746First of all I disagree with the first statement since I think Masquerade can be changed. Or maybe you're only confirming one of the major problems I have with Masquerade but however as for the 'alternative'....
Not saying you can't! You can also run a courtroom drama set in Tokugawa Japan using OD&D, but it wouldn't be my first choice, as too much tinkering might be required. I like tinkering with games but replacing certain fundamental assumptions can be a PITA.
If you excise the Caine monomyth, and leave Generation in place, you'll have to explain just who or what was the First Generation.
Also, Humanity and Virtues have some very strongly implied Christian values, what with the "hierarchy of sins" and all. If you're dismantling the Judaeo-Christian backbone of the game you might want to address this.
Substituting Kuei-Jin for regular old vamps is easy-peasy. Pennangalan as Korean Tzimisce, anyone?
Anything else you might want to address?
Quote from: The Butcher;826971Tzimisce
Tzimisce is racist, nationalist and colonialist because it is appropriating the Armenian nickname of a Byzantine emperor and applying it to Slavic vampires. Statutory Genocide may or may not be involved.
Quote from: CRKrueger;826975Tzimisce is racist, nationalist and colonialist because it is appropriating the Armenian nickname of a Byzantine emperor and applying it to Slavic vampires. Statutory Genocide may or may not be involved.
Indeed, where are the proper Wąpierze, or barring that, why are Slavic vampires twisted and ugly - looking? Dracula was Romanian, for crying out loud!
In fact, as a Pole, I am quite offended by the appropriation of Slavic myths by Byron, Polidori and Stoker.
And vampire's dislike for garlic and onions? Obvious anti - Slavism and anti - Semitism, as both vegetables feature heavily in both Jewish and Slavic cousines.
#RealVampiresAreSlav #StopStealingSlavCulture
Quote from: Rincewind1;826979why are Slavic vampires twisted and ugly - looking? Dracula was Romanian, for crying out loud!
"His face was a strong, a very strong, aquiline, with high bridge of the thin nose and peculiarly arched nostrils, with lofty domed forehead, and hair growing scantily round the temples but profusely elsewhere. His eyebrows were very massive, almost meeting over the nose, and with bushy hair that seemed to curl in its own profusion. The mouth, so far as I could see it under the heavy moustache, was fixed and rather cruel-looking, with peculiarly sharp white teeth.
These protruded over the lips, whose remarkable ruddiness showed astonishing vitality in a man of his years. For the rest, his ears were pale, and at the tops extremely pointed. The chin was broad and strong, and the cheeks firm though thin. The general effect was one of extraordinary pallor.
Hitherto I had noticed the backs of his hands as they lay on his knees in the firelight, and they had seemed rather white and fine. But seeing them now close to me, I could not but notice that they were rather coarse, broad, with squat fingers. Strange to say, there were hairs in the centre of the palm. The nails were long and fine, and cut to a sharp point. As the Count leaned over me and his hands touched me, I could not repress a shudder. It may have been that his breath was rank, but a horrible feeling of nausea came over me, which, do what I would, I could not conceal. "
Quote from: Rincewind1;826979Indeed, where are the proper Strzygas, or barring that, why are Slavic vampires twisted and ugly - looking? Dracula was Romanian, for crying out loud!
You Polish can't cry Racism, you've never been oppress... Err, you hold the traditional reins of pow... Umm. Dammit. Is there a Polish Tumblr?
Quote from: TristramEvans;826980"His face was a strong, a very strong, aquiline, with high bridge of the thin nose and peculiarly arched nostrils, with lofty domed forehead, and hair growing scantily round the temples but profusely elsewhere. His eyebrows were very massive, almost meeting over the nose, and with bushy hair that seemed to curl in its own profusion. The mouth, so far as I could see it under the heavy moustache, was fixed and rather cruel-looking, with peculiarly sharp white teeth.
These protruded over the lips, whose remarkable ruddiness showed astonishing vitality in a man of his years. For the rest, his ears were pale, and at the tops extremely pointed. The chin was broad and strong, and the cheeks firm though thin. The general effect was one of extraordinary pallor.
Hitherto I had noticed the backs of his hands as they lay on his knees in the firelight, and they had seemed rather white and fine. But seeing them now close to me, I could not but notice that they were rather coarse, broad, with squat fingers. Strange to say, there were hairs in the centre of the palm. The nails were long and fine, and cut to a sharp point. As the Count leaned over me and his hands touched me, I could not repress a shudder. It may have been that his breath was rank, but a horrible feeling of nausea came over me, which, do what I would, I could not conceal. "
Well, point for you. Though I'd like to save face by saying that it's still a bit of a move from this to the obviously heavily self - mutilated Tzimisces. None the less, I stand corrected.
Quote from: TristramEvans;826980"His face was a strong, a very strong, aquiline, with high bridge of the thin nose and peculiarly arched nostrils, with lofty domed forehead, and hair growing scantily round the temples but profusely elsewhere. His eyebrows were very massive, almost meeting over the nose, and with bushy hair that seemed to curl in its own profusion. The mouth, so far as I could see it under the heavy moustache, was fixed and rather cruel-looking, with peculiarly sharp white teeth.
These protruded over the lips, whose remarkable ruddiness showed astonishing vitality in a man of his years. For the rest, his ears were pale, and at the tops extremely pointed. The chin was broad and strong, and the cheeks firm though thin. The general effect was one of extraordinary pallor.
Hitherto I had noticed the backs of his hands as they lay on his knees in the firelight, and they had seemed rather white and fine. But seeing them now close to me, I could not but notice that they were rather coarse, broad, with squat fingers. Strange to say, there were hairs in the centre of the palm. The nails were long and fine, and cut to a sharp point. As the Count leaned over me and his hands touched me, I could not repress a shudder. It may have been that his breath was rank, but a horrible feeling of nausea came over me, which, do what I would, I could not conceal. "
By the time he got to England though, he was a rock star.
Quote from: CRKrueger;826986By the time he got to England though, he was a rock star.
There's an UKIP joke in there.
"Like all true Slavs, Dracula only started to truly flourish once he started to suckle on the blood of hard working, tax - paying Englishmen."
The sad fact is that the WW guys were seen within the rpg world as the progressive vanguard of the 90s. Turns out they were neither progressive nor vanguardish enough, and what that means for the all SJW crowd is that their children will soon eat them.