I have no LGBT agenda. I'm a very normal hetero non-noticeable guy. If I was to play a VtM inspired game I would expect to be able to play in a Whateverbigcity by night type of atmosphere. I would expect to find a certain diversity like in every big city. The should be a classy Opera house but also trendy night clubs and other badass biker taverns... And yeah I'd expect to have a little China here and maybe other typical features of big cities. Gay night clubs would be part of these features too, no more prominent no less, it's just places you find in most major cities. I really can't see what's the big fucking deal about it. Just like I don't think it was any big deal in GTA San Andreas.

Maybe I'm coming across the wrong way, but I don't CARE if they make it GLBT friendly, I just don't know exactly how one goes about doing that. Again, the implication is that other games are UNfriendly in some fashion, but nobody seems able to explain how either effect is achieved in a MMO. In a long list of mechanics, gameplay, and rules requests, we have a gooshy sociological request without definition.

Put a gay club in. Fine. Is that all that it takes to be GLBT friendly? Really? Sounds like a bone to me, but I guess we won't know until we see what is meant and what results. I still think its up to the players to make the game what they want it to be within the structure and mechanics the developers provide, and I don't see how structure or mechanics will be pro- or anti-gay. I don't even know how they *could* be. Maybe they can include a "swish" mechanic, and award points for performing it like a combo attack or something? Grant added stat bonuses for assless chaps?

So, yeah. Its a silly request, but if the developers want to spend time on it, fine. I just don't see how it'll end up in anything but a great big pander-bear.

Quote from: Werekoala;408772Maybe I'm coming across the wrong way, but I don't CARE if they make it GLBT friendly, I just don't know exactly how one goes about doing that.

Seduction can play a major part in how vampires find victims to feed on, and acknowledging that they don't always go after the opposite sex is already a step in the right direction, I'd say. Different kinds of nightclubs could serve as hunting grounds that cater to a diverse variety of tastes in prey and preferred hunting techniques. Of course, that all depends on how the game will handle the actual blood-sucking.

I suppose, but I've always been under the impression that vampires don't care one way or the other - we're just cattle to them. I've had male vampires before that drained males and females as opportunity provided. But I wasn't playing vampires in a seductive mode, so maybe that's just a difference in style. I could certainly see that as a mechanic, however, so that's what I was looking for I guess - an example. So, thanks for that.

One way to make it 'LGBT friendly' would be to smack down all the little twerps who like to spew out 'fag' and 'gay' at anything/anyone they don't get along with in-game. In WOW that was always an annoying feature of playing with 'children'. I know in our guild it would get you kicked out.
Also, there's usually a populace of NPCs walking around... dancing in a club. Having some of those be same-sex couples would go a long way to establishing the sense of being in a modern city.

There is a gay bar in Postal 2... but it wasn't there for any 'friendly' reasons.

Quote from: GrimGent;408779Seduction can play a major part in how vampires find victims to feed on, and acknowledging that they don't always go after the opposite sex is already a step in the right direction, I'd say. Different kinds of nightclubs could serve as hunting grounds that cater to a diverse variety of tastes in prey and preferred hunting techniques. Of course, that all depends on how the game will handle the actual blood-sucking.

Yeah, I can't see this being a Vampire game without some way of seducing NPC targets to feed off of them. Especially if there is some sort of Masquerade mechanic that discourages just grabbing people on the street and draining them (I expect there will be, since Bloodlines had one).

Vampires may not care about getting their genitals rubbed, but they do care about luring their prey into a private area and disguising their hunting, and seduction is a common way of achieving those.

Making sure that people can use their seduction powers on members of the same sex ought to be just common-sense in this day and age, and it's especially appropriate considering the source material and the player base.

If the game is going to allow PC-NPC relationships of various sorts (and I suspect it will), same-sex options ought to be a part of that too.

Frankly, that this is called "pandering" is just fucking troggish homophobia.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;408840Frankly, that this is called "pandering" is just fucking troggish homophobia.

Actually, Werekoala was asking for examples of how to make the game LGBT friendly without it just being pandering, and when GrimGent gave him an answer(pretty much what you just talked about), Werekoala acknowledged that it was a valid point and thanked him for it.

Benoist's comment about "aesthetics" makes no sense to me, though. What does that even mean? We all know the stereotypes associated with the ultra-femme gay men and ultra-butch lesbians, and yes the people who fit those stereotypes in particular stand out, but . . . honestly, most gay men and lesbians don't fit those stereotypes and therefore don't stand out like that. By using aesthetics to be more LGBT-friendly, do you just want them to promote(and basically exploit) all those stereotypes? That just seems weird and counterproductive to me.

If we are going to have forums for different types of gaming, can we use them properly.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;408902If we are going to have forums for different types of gaming, can we use them properly.

This one you'll have to take up with the Pundito.

In a way, I agree with Ghost Whistler. I started this thread here because what I want to talk about is how this announcement affects and what it means for WW's Pen & Paper RPG business. Specifically, the question of whether this means they're no longer primarily an RPG company, and secondly the interesting detail that their choosing oWoD is a clear sign that nWoD was an abject failure.

These are all topics for THIS forum.

Now, if someone wants to talk about the MMORPG itself, about its technical or play sides, rather than how it affects the tabletop RPG aspect of things, they should go to the "other games" forum to start that thread.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;409045In a way, I agree with Ghost Whistler. I started this thread here because what I want to talk about is how this announcement affects and what it means for WW's Pen & Paper RPG business. Specifically, the question of whether this means they're no longer primarily an RPG company, and secondly the interesting detail that their choosing oWoD is a clear sign that nWoD was an abject failure.

Well, on that regard I guess than launching a MMO (specially if it is successful) may mean a huge boon for your P&P game line which, again, is not getting closed.

WW is a division of a company devoted to doing MMO, so you could say that they stopped being a primarily RPG oriendçted company some time ago. But again, this division is, AFAIK, profitable and they keep doing stuff.

The reasons for choosing oWoD before nWoD for the game are, for me obvious: oWoD is better suited for aN MMO than nWoD, due to things like metaplot and shit. Also,many nWoD fans wouldn't mind playing an oWoD game, so you have access to both fanbases. I think is a smart move on their side.

Also, oWoD already has several video-games out there (between the Hunter console games and the Vampire CRPGs), which increases the chances that someone who hasn't played the tabletop games will see it and go "Oh, hey, I remember playing that one game 5-6 years ago..."

Granted, Bloodlines is the only one I enjoyed, and even that petered out towards the end of the campaign because the development studio was running out of time and money (RIP Troika), but video-gamers and video-game critics are still far more familiar with Masquerade than anything else WW has done.

Bloodlines, though.  Such a flawed gem.  If they can make the atmosphere in the MMO half as compelling as that in Bloodlines, I'd be sorely tempted to give it a shot, even though I'm not big on MMOs.

Quote from: RPGPundit;409045I started this thread here because what I want to talk about is how this announcement affects and what it means for WW's Pen & Paper RPG business. Specifically, the question of whether this means they're no longer primarily an RPG company, and secondly the interesting detail that their choosing oWoD is a clear sign that nWoD was an abject failure.

"Paper" might not be quite the right word there: WW announced some time ago that their publications are in the process of going pretty much entirely digital. That is, they'll continue to reprint the core books for their current lines and later supply other material through Print On Demand, but aside from that they no longer produce conventional deadtree versions of their games. (The guide for converting Masquerade into Requiem or vice versa should come out in this month.)

As for the MMO, choosing the old WoD is arguably a logical course of action, for its fluff if no other reason, on account of the system being different anyway and the new WoD, well, not really having a "canonical" setting.

Quote from: Imperator;409050Well, on that regard I guess than launching a MMO (specially if it is successful) may mean a huge boon for your P&P game line which, again, is not getting closed.

WW is a division of a company devoted to doing MMO, so you could say that they stopped being a primarily RPG oriendçted company some time ago. But again, this division is, AFAIK, profitable and they keep doing stuff.

The reasons for choosing oWoD before nWoD for the game are, for me obvious: oWoD is better suited for aN MMO than nWoD, due to things like metaplot and shit. Also,many nWoD fans wouldn't mind playing an oWoD game, so you have access to both fanbases. I think is a smart move on their side.

Has anyone posted about the effect that Neverwinter Nights had on D&D?  I don't know much about it, but the original Neverwinter Nights was around from 1991 to 1997.  My impression was that even though it was popular as the first graphical MMORPG, it did not change the sale of D&D that much.

Quote from: jhkim;409078Has anyone posted about the effect that Neverwinter Nights had on D&D?  I don't know much about it, but the original Neverwinter Nights was around from 1991 to 1997.  My impression was that even though it was popular as the first graphical MMORPG, it did not change the sale of D&D that much.

Neverwinter Nights was released in 2002.
Baldur's Gate in 1998, and Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn in 2000.

An argument could be made that these participated in the 3rd edition boom.