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So apparently White Wolf's big project is an MMORPG, set in the world not of the current world of darkness, but the Old World of Darkness.

How fascinating. Two comments spring immediately to mind:
"Awesome. Now you can play a pretentious dick who can't actually accomplish anything despite having incredible power, online."
and
"This pretty much proves that nWoD was an unmitigated disaster for that company".

RPGPundit

What's the difference between new World and Old World of Darkness?

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;408450What's the difference between new World and Old World of Darkness?

Lots. Too many to list casually. The new line, mechanically, is more balanced and the settings changed so that they're vaguely like the old games in some ways, but are their own entity.

Seanchai

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;408450What's the difference between new World and Old World of Darkness?

- Better rules, more streamlined, unified mechanics that allow for crossover if you want. Specially more fluid combat. Overall, a bit more gritty and low-key, which is OK in my book.
- No metaplot. At all.
- No impending end of the world.
- Weirdness amped up to 11. No one knows shit about what's out there.
- Toolbox approach. Many books bring several different explanations to a group or phenomenon, letting you choose, mix or discard as you will.
- More protagonism of mortals, with the basic line and the Hunter line devoted to them. Hunter rocks so much is hard to explain.
- A very very higher usefulness and quality of the books, specially the "second part" of the big series. The Vampire line has received nothing but top-notch books since Russell Bailey got the developing. The books before were more a mixed bag, some very good, some not so much.

Pundit, I don't think the nWoD is a disaster and the MMO shows it. I feel that the oWoD was more suitable to set an MMO on it.

Quote from: Abyssal Maw;408450What's the difference between new World and Old World of Darkness?

As it pertains to the MMO, the background, mostly. Old World of Darkness has a pretty well defined, overarching metaplot that stretches back years and years into the lines' design material. New World of Darkness has little to no background metaplot, which lets the author come up with their own blurry elements on whatever the "truth" about whatever game element might be.

Looking at this, I'm just struck by a simple realization: that WW finally decided that tabletop RPGs are dead to them, and the only way to make a living from then on is to join the MMO technology. That's sad, really.

There's not a snowball's chance in hell I'd play this game, but I'm sort of curious how they are going to reconcile the massively in MMO and the supposed mystique of the creatures you're supposed to play in the World of Darkness.  How much fun could it possibly be to play your vampire running around in a digital city populated by half a million other vampires?  Instances? Mission-based game play?

I had the same sort of doubts concerning City of Heroes.  I didn't really feel like the genre was appropriate for an MMO and that there was no possible way to come up with a unique hero in a massive game.  Anyone here play that?  Is that a model that would work for the World of Darkness?

Now, if they just cut right to the chase and made a shooter with vampires v. werewolves with plenty of humans caught in the middle and lots of collateral damage -  I would see great wisdom in this. :cool:

Quote from: Benoist;408464Looking at this, I'm just struck by a simple realization: that WW finally decided that tabletop RPGs are dead to them, and the only way to make a living from then on is to join the MMO technology. That's sad, really.

I disagree on this. Books are in development, and they will keep coming. The entire old catalogue is released again as PDF/POD. Again, new books will keep coming.

It may be as you say in the future, but is untrue right now.

I'd happily play it, though not on this pc.

I think the setting lends itself to an MMO fairly well. Clear heirarchy, lots of factions to interact with. Maybe include werewolves as well.

Quote from: Imperator;408468I disagree on this. Books are in development, and they will keep coming.

OK. Which ones?

The rules are more streamlined, they still suck though.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;408487The rules are more streamlined, they still suck though.

Here's the mail.

It never fails.

Quote from: Benoist;408464Looking at this, I'm just struck by a simple realization: that WW finally decided that tabletop RPGs are dead to them, and the only way to make a living from then on is to join the MMO technology. That's sad, really.

I wouldn't entirely agree. DnD has had computer games, and even DDO, for years now with no apparent harm done to the ttrpg.

Well OK I see what you guys mean. It's just that I thought the WW production of actual role playing books was all but dead for several months now. Apparently I was wrong. It's alright.

Anyway, the use of the Old WoD is a good move. It's still seriously more popular than the nWoD.

Quote from: winkingbishop;408467There's not a snowball's chance in hell I'd play this game, but I'm sort of curious how they are going to reconcile the massively in MMO and the supposed mystique of the creatures you're supposed to play in the World of Darkness.  How much fun could it possibly be to play your vampire running around in a digital city populated by half a million other vampires?  Instances? Mission-based game play?

The same questions pop up in my mind... though if I could join a group of human hunters who set out to kill vampires and muck up other occult nonsense... I'd play that.
I agree about the oddity of having lots of vampires... even the RPG seemed a bit crowded with them... and I've got no clue what epic quests/instances would fit the setting as written.

QuoteI had the same sort of doubts concerning City of Heroes.  I didn't really feel like the genre was appropriate for an MMO and that there was no possible way to come up with a unique hero in a massive game.  Anyone here play that?  Is that a model that would work for the World of Darkness?

I LOVED CoH... it was the first MMO I ever played and still prefer the gameplay over WoW. The character creation was surprisingly versatile and I always felt like my heroes were unique... much more so than any other MMO I've played. It felt like pulp era heroics... fighting weird sorcerors, witches, Nazis (with vampires and werewolves), Frankenstein-style monsters, subterranean rock-men, clockwork robots, an ENORMOUS octopus, etc...
The only shortcoming of the game, for me, was that the missions got kind of redundant... there weren't all that many different maps for instances. Nothing like the big signature instances in WoW.
If they ever reboot the setting with a makeover of the content (but same basic mythos) I'd re-up my subscription immediately.
V:tM seems like a harder fit... the background of CoH makes for why heroes are not as secret and rare as they seem in comics, even though each one is unique... but it did have a system where your mission choices were somewhat effected by your chosen background... determined what sorts of enemies you'd fight. I could see that sort of thing working for the factions in Vampire... vs. WoW where once you got out of your startup area everyone has access to the same quests (except for a small handful of class/profession quests).

Maybe it will be more like a huge chat room with avatars... you just stand around smoking cloves and glaring at the 'normals' (What happens when the sun comes up? Does the sun come up?)

QuoteNow, if they just cut right to the chase and made a shooter with vampires v. werewolves with plenty of humans caught in the middle and lots of collateral damage -  I would see great wisdom in this. :cool:

Yeah, that would seem like the obvious way to go... I'd give it a go.

I was never a rabid fan of the OWoD but I've had more interest in the NWoD... I like a lot of the changes to the setting... the different emphasis for the werewolves and changelings. Promethean was a pretty cool book... at least for reading. I hated the 'new age' threads running through a lot of the OWoD stuff and there seems less of that now... except maybe with the mages.

City of Heroes was the only MMO that I ever really enjoyed. Enough so that I considered going back when Going Rogue came out. I'm also somewhat interested in trying out Champions. I hear good things about it, but then I heard good thing about WoW. I swear that game actually tried to bore me to death. More map variety and stuff would be nice, though, yeah.

Something about CoH also seemed to encourage more actual role-playing. I ran into a lot more players who did characterful things... stuck to character themes and such.
A big part of that, I think, was the lack of competition for toys/gadgets/armor/weapons... you designed your character, your powers didn't depend on what codpiece you found in last night's dungeon (and swapped out the next day). There was never the bickering over who got what 'drop' so the sense of cooperation was less likely to break down... it was common to get on a 'team' and stick with it through a bunch of missions/instances, unlike WoW.
My WoW characters all went through stages where they looked ridiculous because their best armor/weapon had an ugly look to it.
So you were always being reminded of the initial concept... though you could always do a redesign or switch to an alternate costume it didn't effect your abilities.
I always enjoyed reading the backgrounds people had written for their characters.

I'm picturing a bunch of vampire PCs fighting over who gets the snazzy velvet jacket that dropped off the Toreador boss.

Quote from: winkingbishop;408467There's not a snowball's chance in hell I'd play this game, but I'm sort of curious how they are going to reconcile the massively in MMO and the supposed mystique of the creatures you're supposed to play in the World of Darkness.  How much fun could it possibly be to play your vampire running around in a digital city populated by half a million other vampires?  Instances? Mission-based game play?

I know nothing about this game except what I just read in this forum.  Guild Wars managed to tackle this with instanced play.  The cities you enter are MMO for people to trade, chat, and group up but everything outside the cities are instanced, even to the point where someone who wanted to play solo could grab NPCs.  

I suppose if they made designated Elysium areas and instanced play areas it would allow for a feeling that vamps and monsters were rare and make the player feel more important.

I probably won't ever play this game either, like others have said, MMOs do a great job of boring me.

I'm shocked it took so long. Unless I missed a change in the White Wolf news a few years back, White Wolf has belonged to CCP (the guys behind Eve Online) since...2003.   While the hinted at 'eve online RPG' never materialized (and with WW at the helm: Thank God for That!), the popularity of other game properties using Vampire: the Colon this is a long expected announcement.

Although I'm not as excited as many are (I prefer V:tR to V:tM), I understand the decision to use the old universe: The power scale is much, much larger. In VtR your only a few hundred XP away from being Prince, in VtM you will never ever be a Prince without diablerizing much more powerful vampires and you'll still have to worry about those antediluvians roaming around.

CCP can make a mean MMO, and I will definitely be keeping an eye on this game.

Oh, here's some notes on the 'Wanted' list from the Panel at The Grand Masquerade(From Just Achilli's Blog (http://jachilli.squarespace.com/journal/2010/9/27/after-the-grand-masquerade.html):

QuoteSo, with the Grand Masquerade at its conclusion and the debut of some news and an art-driven animatic, word is now out that the WoD MMO is going to be based on the Masquerade, built on three spheres of playstyle (cofeeshop, sandbox, and themepark), and highlight the ideals of Danger, Power, Romance, and Mystery. One of the panels at the Grand Masquerade offered players a chance to tell the devs what they wanted to see. I took notes like a diligent designer should, and here's the summary:

 

Not a lot of quests. Org versus org. Player-driven faction content and conflict.
Not a WOW clone. Repetitive quests are boring and unfulfilling.
Concerns over how mental or social influence powers are handled. How to do this well and meaningfully? Players uncomfortable with a loss of control over avatar.
Players want to control other characters, however.
Territory control. An adult-only play space. Roleplayers want a space where the integrity of the setting colors the conversation. Don't want to suffer through Chuck Norris jokes and other immersion-breaking chatter.
Content that reinforces themes that are the cornerstones of the WoD. "Shivers up the spine."
An exploration of who a new character is, so that he's not just dropped tabula rasa into the world. Random backgrounds, connections to the world, hooks into world participation.
Powers that cleave closely to the powers that exist in the game, but also expand into new directions for appropriate Disciplines. Making them work in tandem with the system, so that they make sense in the world.
Finite numbers of the supernatural critter types.
Permadeath. Server type preference?
Allow social powers to be socially versatile. A character can be successful socially; not all advancement is tied to combat or traditional "leveling."
Factional control of regions or assets. Benefits to controlling key areas or establishments.
Live team events built upon a foundation of existing world lore. Real-time events, historical Masquerade characters, GM NPCs who can be interacted with or pull players into stories.
Influences, boons,  hallmarks of the social origins of vampires.
Accessible to casual players. Low-intensity tasks to just pick up and do so players don't have to sit there idly.
Playable Sabbat.
Creation, building visible things that can be added to game. Ex. Toreador art, Nosferatu caverns. Some kind of crafting system.
One big world with a dynamic power system that allows different factions to thrive.
Stay true to the adult content. Blood, gore, darkness, tits.
Present the themes of the World of Darkness as playable elements. Let the players participate in the things that make Vampire what it is.
Allow players to participate meaningfully as casual and part-time players.
Image and customization consultation -- players helping other players create their looks.
Playable neonate-ancilla-elder model with meaningful play, all with impact on the in-world vitae economy.
Status system -- how to represent and elder concept. Players that can participate as setting, a piece of the environment.
Unique and empowering via rarity.
Rarity of combat unless it's a character's focus.
Severity and fearsomeness of combat.
World that responds to the actions of the characters. Dynamic, changing, adapting to how players use the world.
A system to allow players to form groups of their own design as opposed to just sharing commonalities like clan and Disciplines.
GLBT friendly content.
Rewards for advancement tied to tiered mastery of ability or chance rolls.
Final Death.
Bloodline characters. Seeing the effects of actions the players have taken in character selection.
Use relationships with fan organizations to allow players to play their LARP characters and vice versa.
Crafting +1 but not materials farming.
Immersion as a priority. Reward the long-time player who's been into Vampire as opposed to the sillier players who are aggravating elements in other MMOs. Jumping goofball players break the mood.
Non-unique names as a matter of character identity.
Other WoD critters. The whole panoply of supernatural creature types.
Cherry pick the strong parts of Requiem.
Mortals, participate in the Embrace, etc. X2 X3
Embrace. X2
Diablerie.
Ability to flag self for PvP allowability.
Communication needs. Make communication happen in a way that's not as as intrusive as "global chat UI".
Politics outside clan and sect. City politics, for example. Domains and territories?
A sense of history imparted to elder characters. Flashback sequences, historical instances, etc.
Narrative that's not wholly reliant on players to facilitate the content.
Control the rate of character progression and provide content so that casual and time-constrained players can still participate meaningfully.
Personal spaces like havens. Ability to damage or conspire against havens. Or help cultivate them.
Torpor as a clone-type mechanic as a backup.
Casual player rewards and impetus.
 

It was a pretty exciting panel to be on, especially given that the goals of the players represented here are very much in accordance with the things we've been designing and iterating. But what about you? What do you think?

I am mildly surprised by the oWoD option, and I cannot help but suspect that it may herald at a return to the oWoD in tabletop form as well.

Much as I love the nWoD, I must recognize that the oWoD appeals to a wider crowd. Also, IMHO the nWoD release schedule was horribly mismanaged by WW. It's still a shame, though.

Quote from: Benoist;408476OK. Which ones?

AFAIK, Mage, Vampire and Exalted books are forthcoming and in development. Probably there will be more miniseries a la Scion, Promethean or Changeling.

And frankly, if keeping the enormous quality of all their recent books means getting less books out per year, I am totally behind that.

The last WoD book I purchased was Geist, so I'm a bit out of the loop.

There's no game after Geist, right?

Quote from: The Butcher;408564I am mildly surprised by the oWoD option, and I cannot help but suspect that it may herald at a return to the oWoD in tabletop form as well.

According to the recent statements by the WW staff, all the oWoD material will eventually become available through PDF/POD, but so will all the nWoD products as well. However, they don't intend to support the old setting with new books beyond that, only to release manuals for converting it into the current system.

Also, it's worth noting that the feature list quoted by KrakaJak is what the audience at the Grand Masquerade wished to see in the game. Very little has actually been confirmed about the content. (But considering the company behind it, the end result may well resemble EVE rather than WoW.)

Quote from: GrimGent;408590(But considering the company behind it, the end result may well resemble EVE rather than WoW.)

And that would be good. Althougt I think I never play a WoD game in my whole life (I'm a dungeon vermin), the suggestions of the list seem very fine advancements to the world of MMORPGs.

The Want list very much is an 'I want it all' sort of critter.

Mind control that doesn't jack your avatar... but lets you jack other people's avatars?

Yeah, right.

Permadeath? Even Eve, which is still one of the most brutal MMOs I've played (seeing that any other player can decide, for any reason at all, to 'kill you', and inflict massive damage (mostly wallet based... you lose your gear... all of it... every time)... doesn't even try that.   Perma-death means no continuity, which means very few people will keep playing month after month (seeing as there is no point if every time you get jacked up you have to start over)... which is seriously unsustainable.  At least Achilli was smart enough to realize that might be possible only on limited servers.

Also I can see that the 'coffeehouse' players are demanding that they be able to latte their way up to ultimate power... which is pretty funny when you think about it...

Quote from: GrimGent;408590However, they don't intend to support the old setting with new books beyond that, only to release manuals for converting it into the current system.

That's all I want, though. Did they say when that's coming out?

Seanchai

Quote from: Spike;408610The Want list very much is an 'I want it all' sort of critter.

Mind control that doesn't jack your avatar... but lets you jack other people's avatars?

Yeah, right.

Permadeath? Even Eve, which is still one of the most brutal MMOs I've played (seeing that any other player can decide, for any reason at all, to 'kill you', and inflict massive damage (mostly wallet based... you lose your gear... all of it... every time)... doesn't even try that.   Perma-death means no continuity, which means very few people will keep playing month after month (seeing as there is no point if every time you get jacked up you have to start over)... which is seriously unsustainable.  At least Achilli was smart enough to realize that might be possible only on limited servers.

Also I can see that the 'coffeehouse' players are demanding that they be able to latte their way up to ultimate power... which is pretty funny when you think about it...

But with Vampires. It might be a bit different. After all dead isn;t really dead most of the time so having a level of dead that is down below dead but is permanent - Diablerie? - might make permadeath doable in this environment.

You also have the fact that startig characters could be of varying power depending on who their sires are. So a Gen13 Vamp might be the norm but maybe if you permadeath lost a character you get Gen12 etc ...

But I agree the wish list does not seem to fit the current sucessful MMO model. No death, no risk of loosing stuff, nothing can affect your PC unless you want it to, no PCs in plot determining positions, no changing of the environment... etc

Well, EVE Online is just one MMO that punishes the player for death (I've heard about level loss to being 'killed', and thats not counting the PvP aspects... just during questing you can get jacked up enough to lose levels in some games).

While Vampires are 'tough' enough to make permadeath a less likely outcome to being beaten in a fight (at least mythologically... being staked and 'left for dead', etc...), but against fellow players, if said players are ASKING to make permadeath possible? Not going to happen.  I garauntee the permadeath crowd are thinking they'll be doing the killing not being the killed!  

And really: Vampire, at least as presented by White Wolf, is almost impossible to imagine without a strong, even overwhelming PvP aspect.  Not necessarily violent PvP (and again: this is where CCP is a good match for the MMO, as their entry into the MMO market was rather innovative in this area, where most of the game content is generated by other players in competition with one another), but that would definitely be an aspect.

Quote from: Seanchai;408620That's all I want, though. Did they say when that's coming out?

I don't think there's been any definite date for that yet, sorry to say. The MMO will be launched in 2012 at the earliest, but they'll probably get that whole digital publishing deal in order before then.

Quote from: SpikeAlso I can see that the 'coffeehouse' players are demanding that they be able to latte their way up to ultimate power... which is pretty funny when you think about it...

As I recall, one of the confirmed tidbits from the Q&A session was that the three spheres of play (coffeeshop, themepark, sandbox) will be interconnected through an "economy of blood" that runs through the entire MMO. It's apparently going for full PvP, with specific areas where violence is discouraged but without the option for staying out of conflicts between players. However, while combat is part of the game, it's definitely not the main focus: your social connections are what really matters, not how hard you can punch someone.

I find the request for "GLBT friendly content" hilarious.

Really. Vampire, the game that created the angsty-gothy-nobody-understands-me gaming, and they want it MORE friendly to their lifestyle? What exactly would this content entail, anyway? I don't recall too many MMOs that are overtly sexual in any real way - that usually comes from the players.

Still, I personally am hoping for more heterosexual-friendly content in the form of naked boobage. When will a game manufacturer find the courage to give my under-represented demographic what we deserve?

Quote from: Werekoala;408641I find the request for "GLBT friendly content" hilarious.

In fact, that's apparently also been confirmed already. The demographics that CCP makes an effort to target with the MMO include women, casual players, and the GLBT community. Yes, there will be gay clubs in the game.

I don't find the GLBT friendly request to be surprising, personally. Why would it be?

My point is that things like that are usually player-generated content. Really, what part of creating a game makes it hetero- or gay-friendly or unfriendly? "Gay Clubs" - ok - why does that have to be encoded in the game itself? Why not just have gay people who play the game make a non-defined nightclub their own? Are there going to be Male NPC strippers or something? If so, do we get fmale NPC strippers as well? Is my quest for boobage about to be fulfilled?

It is pandering, pure and simple. But hey, if it makes them money, then go for it I guess.

Quote from: GrimGent;408650Yes, there will be gay clubs in the game.

Cue hirsute, overweight males playing Lesbian Stripper Ninja vampires, roleplaying gratuitous "adult" scenes with other Lesbian Stripper Ninjas vampires (which they ignore or deny that may be played by another hirsute, overweight male) at the super-dee-duper-GLBT-friendly Club Lesbos or something.

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Werekoala;408658My point is that things like that are usually player-generated content. Really, what part of creating a game makes it hetero- or gay-friendly or unfriendly?

Well ... everything, really. From basic themes and aesthetics to actual contents, plot and characters. I mean, you'd be hard-pressed to see homosexual characters as a mundane plot element in a story about Crusaders in the Holy Land (especially if it involves Templar Knights *cough cough*), whereas in a world of Gothic Punk featuring all sorts of fringe groups living night's life in large modern urban areas, it'd be kind of weird to actually not have a gay community represented in some fashion or another, wouldn't you think?

I'd expect such a game to be less prude and propose a little more mature content than your average vanilla fantasy setting. It's part of what WW products are, or rather are used for. That may be a problem in countries were showing a nipple here and there brands you with a sign of infamy and suddenly you get rated like pseudo pr0n.

Quote from: Werekoala;408658"Gay Clubs" - ok - why does that have to be encoded in the game itself?

Because the game takes place in modern-day urban nightlife, concentrates heavily on the social interaction between the characters, and features romance as one of its major elements?

Again, this is an MMO, not a stand-alone game. PLAYERS - the folks playing the game? - generate the content. There are Gay friendly guilds in every MMO I'm aware of - hell, the Proudmoore server on WoW is massively flaming, since, you know, its PROUD and all. But there isn't a gay tavern in Ironforge because Blizzard put one there - that's what the players do.

So again, what would Gay Friendly Content in an MMO actually look like? And will there be Black or Asian-friendly content? What about Latinos? And seriously, isn't it time for someone to consider the needs of the the Tongans?

I think you've just got a grudge against the "Gay agenda". :rolleyes:

Why, otherwise, talk about it in the first place?
What is so bothering about having gay-friendly areas included in the MMO by its designers?

Quote from: Werekoala;408715But there isn't a gay tavern in Ironforge because Blizzard put one there - that's what the players do.

Well, we don't know yet how much control the players will have over the environment in WODO, or how the "coffeehouse" aspect will work out in practice. If there's no option for setting up and furnishing an actual club where the PCs may spend time, then dedicating some of the social areas built into the game for sexual minorities (instead of pretending that they don't exist) would in itself be gay-friendly.

But were, oh were, does the pandering stop?

Never mind that the entire request is extra-super silly. First of all, WW made a big deal over the years that vampires aren't interested in sex, which sort of renders the question moot in their view.

Second, Vampires have always (ok, since Byron) represented a sort of repressed taboo sexuality, which in our case (since Anne Rice decided to become a transgendered bloodsucker a la LeStat) has made Vampires pretty damn gay. Vampire clubs ARE gay clubs. Vampires ARE the repressed 'other', the sexual minority.  

So... its pretty much a redundant request from the get go.  Saying you are a 'gay vampire' is the same thing as saying you are a 'goth vampire' or an 'emo vampire' or 'I'm a vampire that likes The Cure'.

It might not be universally true, but its so frakking close that statistics doesn't recognize the difference.

Besides, everyone knows pink is the new black.

I just want to know what that means. How do you make a game "gay friendly"? What makes a game gay un-friendly? Are there NPC mobs roaming the streets beating up homosexuals in other games? Do vendors traditionally call players fags if their gear is color coordinated? Is it because player emotes don't include a lisp? Do we need to make sure V:TM is the MMO equivalent of Tangency so the little dears don't get their feelings hurt?

It is a nebulous goal at best. Designers need to stick to making the games mechanically good and let the players achieve their own socio-political agendas within that framework. IMO, YMMV, WTF, BBQ, and all that.

Quote from: Spike;408742First of all, WW made a big deal over the years that vampires aren't interested in sex, which sort of renders the question moot in their view.

Vampires will be the only supernatural character type available at the time of the launch, but mortals will also be playable alongside them, and other splats may be added later on. The developers have hinted at the possibility of including at least werewolves and changelings as PCs in expansions, and they'll be used for NPCs and background material from the start. Even though the initial set-up is based on Masquerade, it's still World of Darkness Online, not just Vampire Online.

I have no LGBT agenda. I'm a very normal hetero non-noticeable guy. If I was to play a VtM inspired game I would expect to be able to play in a Whateverbigcity by night type of atmosphere. I would expect to find a certain diversity like in every big city. The should be a classy Opera house but also trendy night clubs and other badass biker taverns... And yeah I'd expect to have a little China here and maybe other typical features of big cities. Gay night clubs would be part of these features too, no more prominent no less, it's just places you find in most major cities. I really can't see what's the big fucking deal about it. Just like I don't think it was any big deal in GTA San Andreas.

Maybe I'm coming across the wrong way, but I don't CARE if they make it GLBT friendly, I just don't know exactly how one goes about doing that. Again, the implication is that other games are UNfriendly in some fashion, but nobody seems able to explain how either effect is achieved in a MMO. In a long list of mechanics, gameplay, and rules requests, we have a gooshy sociological request without definition.

Put a gay club in. Fine. Is that all that it takes to be GLBT friendly? Really? Sounds like a bone to me, but I guess we won't know until we see what is meant and what results. I still think its up to the players to make the game what they want it to be within the structure and mechanics the developers provide, and I don't see how structure or mechanics will be pro- or anti-gay. I don't even know how they *could* be. Maybe they can include a "swish" mechanic, and award points for performing it like a combo attack or something? Grant added stat bonuses for assless chaps?

So, yeah. Its a silly request, but if the developers want to spend time on it, fine. I just don't see how it'll end up in anything but a great big pander-bear.

Quote from: Werekoala;408772Maybe I'm coming across the wrong way, but I don't CARE if they make it GLBT friendly, I just don't know exactly how one goes about doing that.

Seduction can play a major part in how vampires find victims to feed on, and acknowledging that they don't always go after the opposite sex is already a step in the right direction, I'd say. Different kinds of nightclubs could serve as hunting grounds that cater to a diverse variety of tastes in prey and preferred hunting techniques. Of course, that all depends on how the game will handle the actual blood-sucking.

I suppose, but I've always been under the impression that vampires don't care one way or the other - we're just cattle to them. I've had male vampires before that drained males and females as opportunity provided. But I wasn't playing vampires in a seductive mode, so maybe that's just a difference in style. I could certainly see that as a mechanic, however, so that's what I was looking for I guess - an example. So, thanks for that.

One way to make it 'LGBT friendly' would be to smack down all the little twerps who like to spew out 'fag' and 'gay' at anything/anyone they don't get along with in-game. In WOW that was always an annoying feature of playing with 'children'. I know in our guild it would get you kicked out.
Also, there's usually a populace of NPCs walking around... dancing in a club. Having some of those be same-sex couples would go a long way to establishing the sense of being in a modern city.

There is a gay bar in Postal 2... but it wasn't there for any 'friendly' reasons.

Quote from: GrimGent;408779Seduction can play a major part in how vampires find victims to feed on, and acknowledging that they don't always go after the opposite sex is already a step in the right direction, I'd say. Different kinds of nightclubs could serve as hunting grounds that cater to a diverse variety of tastes in prey and preferred hunting techniques. Of course, that all depends on how the game will handle the actual blood-sucking.

Yeah, I can't see this being a Vampire game without some way of seducing NPC targets to feed off of them. Especially if there is some sort of Masquerade mechanic that discourages just grabbing people on the street and draining them (I expect there will be, since Bloodlines had one).

Vampires may not care about getting their genitals rubbed, but they do care about luring their prey into a private area and disguising their hunting, and seduction is a common way of achieving those.

Making sure that people can use their seduction powers on members of the same sex ought to be just common-sense in this day and age, and it's especially appropriate considering the source material and the player base.

If the game is going to allow PC-NPC relationships of various sorts (and I suspect it will), same-sex options ought to be a part of that too.

Frankly, that this is called "pandering" is just fucking troggish homophobia.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;408840Frankly, that this is called "pandering" is just fucking troggish homophobia.

Actually, Werekoala was asking for examples of how to make the game LGBT friendly without it just being pandering, and when GrimGent gave him an answer(pretty much what you just talked about), Werekoala acknowledged that it was a valid point and thanked him for it.

Benoist's comment about "aesthetics" makes no sense to me, though. What does that even mean? We all know the stereotypes associated with the ultra-femme gay men and ultra-butch lesbians, and yes the people who fit those stereotypes in particular stand out, but . . . honestly, most gay men and lesbians don't fit those stereotypes and therefore don't stand out like that. By using aesthetics to be more LGBT-friendly, do you just want them to promote(and basically exploit) all those stereotypes? That just seems weird and counterproductive to me.

If we are going to have forums for different types of gaming, can we use them properly.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;408902If we are going to have forums for different types of gaming, can we use them properly.

This one you'll have to take up with the Pundito.

In a way, I agree with Ghost Whistler. I started this thread here because what I want to talk about is how this announcement affects and what it means for WW's Pen & Paper RPG business. Specifically, the question of whether this means they're no longer primarily an RPG company, and secondly the interesting detail that their choosing oWoD is a clear sign that nWoD was an abject failure.

These are all topics for THIS forum.

Now, if someone wants to talk about the MMORPG itself, about its technical or play sides, rather than how it affects the tabletop RPG aspect of things, they should go to the "other games" forum to start that thread.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;409045In a way, I agree with Ghost Whistler. I started this thread here because what I want to talk about is how this announcement affects and what it means for WW's Pen & Paper RPG business. Specifically, the question of whether this means they're no longer primarily an RPG company, and secondly the interesting detail that their choosing oWoD is a clear sign that nWoD was an abject failure.

Well, on that regard I guess than launching a MMO (specially if it is successful) may mean a huge boon for your P&P game line which, again, is not getting closed.

WW is a division of a company devoted to doing MMO, so you could say that they stopped being a primarily RPG oriendçted company some time ago. But again, this division is, AFAIK, profitable and they keep doing stuff.

The reasons for choosing oWoD before nWoD for the game are, for me obvious: oWoD is better suited for aN MMO than nWoD, due to things like metaplot and shit. Also,many nWoD fans wouldn't mind playing an oWoD game, so you have access to both fanbases. I think is a smart move on their side.

Also, oWoD already has several video-games out there (between the Hunter console games and the Vampire CRPGs), which increases the chances that someone who hasn't played the tabletop games will see it and go "Oh, hey, I remember playing that one game 5-6 years ago..."

Granted, Bloodlines is the only one I enjoyed, and even that petered out towards the end of the campaign because the development studio was running out of time and money (RIP Troika), but video-gamers and video-game critics are still far more familiar with Masquerade than anything else WW has done.

Bloodlines, though.  Such a flawed gem.  If they can make the atmosphere in the MMO half as compelling as that in Bloodlines, I'd be sorely tempted to give it a shot, even though I'm not big on MMOs.

Quote from: RPGPundit;409045I started this thread here because what I want to talk about is how this announcement affects and what it means for WW's Pen & Paper RPG business. Specifically, the question of whether this means they're no longer primarily an RPG company, and secondly the interesting detail that their choosing oWoD is a clear sign that nWoD was an abject failure.

"Paper" might not be quite the right word there: WW announced some time ago that their publications are in the process of going pretty much entirely digital. That is, they'll continue to reprint the core books for their current lines and later supply other material through Print On Demand, but aside from that they no longer produce conventional deadtree versions of their games. (The guide for converting Masquerade into Requiem or vice versa should come out in this month.)

As for the MMO, choosing the old WoD is arguably a logical course of action, for its fluff if no other reason, on account of the system being different anyway and the new WoD, well, not really having a "canonical" setting.

Quote from: Imperator;409050Well, on that regard I guess than launching a MMO (specially if it is successful) may mean a huge boon for your P&P game line which, again, is not getting closed.

WW is a division of a company devoted to doing MMO, so you could say that they stopped being a primarily RPG oriendçted company some time ago. But again, this division is, AFAIK, profitable and they keep doing stuff.

The reasons for choosing oWoD before nWoD for the game are, for me obvious: oWoD is better suited for aN MMO than nWoD, due to things like metaplot and shit. Also,many nWoD fans wouldn't mind playing an oWoD game, so you have access to both fanbases. I think is a smart move on their side.

Has anyone posted about the effect that Neverwinter Nights had on D&D?  I don't know much about it, but the original Neverwinter Nights was around from 1991 to 1997.  My impression was that even though it was popular as the first graphical MMORPG, it did not change the sale of D&D that much.

Quote from: jhkim;409078Has anyone posted about the effect that Neverwinter Nights had on D&D?  I don't know much about it, but the original Neverwinter Nights was around from 1991 to 1997.  My impression was that even though it was popular as the first graphical MMORPG, it did not change the sale of D&D that much.

Neverwinter Nights was released in 2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights).
Baldur's Gate in 1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldur%27s_gate), and Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn in 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baldur%27s_Gate_II:_Shadows_of_Amn).

An argument could be made that these participated in the 3rd edition boom.

Quote from: Benoist;409086Neverwinter Nights was released in 2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_Nights).

Bioware's Neverwinter Nights took the name as an homage to the original AOL MMO/MUD of the same name.  ;)

Quote from: Peregrin;409087Bioware's Neverwinter Nights took the name as an homage to the original AOL MMO/MUD of the same name.  ;)

I thought that's the PC game we were talking about. See references to Baldur's Gate also in my previous post. :)

I see.  Woops.  I still need to finish Baldur's Gate...I think I'm on disk 2 or something...

But yeah, Bioware's NWN was really popular (though perhaps not as much as BG), and I think I played it about the same time I started to become interested in TTRPGs.  I loved the CRPG, but when I played 3rd ed I was blown away by how much better tabletop filled the niche I was looking for.

To think that was 8/9 years ago that I started with all of this...gah.

A representative from CCP had this (http://www.gamebreaker.tv/game-breaker/world-of-darkness-spills-the-blood/2010/10) to say about the project.