Note: I don't know if the term "Virtual Table Top" needs a definition or not. Hopefully it is pretty clear. But, in case it is not clear, I'd define a VTT as the attempt to keep the GM and Players as they exist in a paper and pencil RPG, but enhance the process of role-playing with technology, including using computer graphics for game-maps, and computer processing power to crunch numbers.


So, on the topic of Virtual Table Tops. . . .

What ones are out there?
What do people think of this concept?
And what do they want to see from a VTT?

There are a few of them around that I know about. One that I used most recently was Tabletop Forge ( https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/joshuha/tabletop-forge-the-virtual-tabletop-for-google-han ). And, more recent developments which I happened to hear about include: Mote (which I learned about on this site https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/740970397/mote-guaranteed-to-be-the-best-virtual-tabletop-ev ) and Storyscape ( http://slabtowngames.com/  although the Slabtown team seem to be regrouping after the failure of their recent Kickstarter campaign) .  

This topic is of special interest to me because, some years back, I put some work into a VTT of my own.  I ended up mothballing that project, but was considering dusting it off. I was wondering if it was worth going back to, and what directions I should take the project if I did go back to it. That is actually one of the major motivations behind starting this thread (although I would like the thread to be about VTTs in general, rather than focusing entirely on any single application).

As I mentioned above, I've tried a few different VTT applications (although I'm sure there are many options I have yet to hear about), and also tried playing games by play-by-post and play-by-email. Unfortunately, although I had fun with these options, none of these methods have really matched my own vision of a 3D virtual world where the computer handles all the rules (tracks damage, ammo, fatigue, encumbrance, etc), while the GM and players control the various characters.

On the other hand, for the computer to track everything it has to know about everything, which would make it pretty hard to make stuff up on the fly, which is something I do a lot as a GM. So there can be some downsides to a project which is as encompassing as what I visualize.

Regrading my own project,  I'm curious what people think about what I'm trying to do, and if it is worth moving forward with it again. . . .

So here is a bit more about that:

The project is written in C++,  uses OpenGL for a 3D rendering API, and DirectX for sound.  There is a clinet and server edition of the program. The players use the client program, whereas the GM uses the server version of the program.

Design Goals:

   First, that the program should be a combat simulator and handle all the rule stuff automaticcally for the GM.

Second, I wanted a virtual 3D world, which would be fully interactive (meaning that the characters could blow holes in walls, dig tunnels in the ground, create their own walls, etc).

Third, I wanted to do more that what you could do with normal miniatures. I wanted 3D models which would automatically reflect the state of a given character. If you are looking at a large green orc, wearing black plate mail, who has a red mohawk, and is carrying a huge battle-axe, then the model should automatically reflect that fact. What you see should be what you get. And if the orc drops the axe, or takes off the armor, the model should reflect that fact too. Further, the models should animate based on what the character is doing, if the charater is taking aim with his gun, or crawling, or running, that is what the model should be doing.

This is a Screen Shot of Old Version of my VTT. It consists of 3 windows: a data view over on the left (with character stats, dice controls, internet connection control, etc), and on the top right is the 3D virtual world window, and bottom right is a text window, for in-character discussion, and listing of things that occur in the game). The landscape, while crude, was fully interactive (the characters could blow holes in the ground or walls, swim in the water, etc). The models, while pretty crude, were dynamically created based on the character's stats, species, equipment, etc. The example shown has 3 characters loaded up (the characters were created with a CharGen program I made for that purpose).



Here are some screen shots of a newer version of the program, hopefully these will give kind of an idea of what the set-up looks like, although a video with the animations and sound might be better. . . .

A couple comments before getting to the shots: I wanted to do more complex models for this one, and that means more work in order to get my dynamic-model creation system working (that is one of the main reasons why the project got shelved, because I got side-tracked during the process of getting that up and running).  So, for right now, I am limited in which characters I can use. However, the character I've got here (a blue alien entity) works pretty well, especially since this character can fly and throw energy-bolts that can blow holes in the landscape (two features which I wanted to demonstrate).

Shot of a character flying along a dry creek bed. . . .
Hovering at the edge of where the dry creek meets a larger river. . .
.Hovering over a bridge that crosses another point in the river. . . .

Thus far the character has been flying and hovering, but my program covers more actions than that (here is a non-flying example) Character running on bridge

Here the character is off to the side of the bridge, and near some buildings, this shot is an example of the fog-of-war feature that automatically blocks out parts of the landscape that the character can't see. . . .

Here is the character blasting holes in the landscape (with the targeting system activated, note the crosshairs), the character has already taken several shots here, and is now taking another one. . . .

Here the same character is at the entrance to a cave complex, this shot also is useful for demonstraiting the difference between GM view (which sees everything), and the Character's view (which is limited to what the Character can see)



As I mentioned above, there is a Character Generation Program which I use to make characters for the VTT, here are a couple of shots of the older version of that program :
(Example character's physical stats---note: this character has olympic level speed and agility)

Main Window with the focus set to physical stats

Mental skills dialog example (skills work in a way that is pretty similar to GURPS, where your net skill is basically stat+bonus. The focus in this shot is set to languages, these are skills specific to a given campaign I wanted to run, but the program can be customized to fit any type of setting.

Equipment dialog example, focused on allowing the character to buy different types of pistols (again relevant to the given setting)

And here are a few shots of different characters stated out in the newer version of the CharGen program:

Ralph (a marksman)

Brak (a big barbarian)

Tina (warrior princess)

Hopefully that is enough to get a sense of what I'm doing. As I mentioned, I'm trying to decide if I should take this off the shelf and try to finish it or not (Other people have already built VTTs, and there are other projects I could be working on instead, if this is not something anybody cares that much about).

I'm currently running AD&D 2E on Roll20.net, which I don't see listed in your post.

I'm running my current 7th Sea campaign online out of necessity since my brother lives in England.

It's just... awful. An exercise in frustration. Because it's so convenient, normally good players are too relaxed and constantly arrive late. Everyone is tempted to browse the internet when it isn't "me time", slowing down the proceedings when they get caught unawares. Because we can't use body language, facial cues or presence techniques players are constantly interrupting each other. Online dice rollers are clunky, especially if you have unusual dice mechanics.

All that, and the experience just feels less warm. I want to see these people people smiling or gaping, I want to feel their energy.

I can't imagine what it would be like if I had less skilled players. I wish a virtual tabletop really could work because gaming keeps getting tougher to balance with adult life, but I don't think I'll ever do it again.

Quote from: warp9;731883I'd define a VTT as the attempt to keep the GM and Players as they exist in a paper and pencil RPG, but enhance the process of role-playing with technology, including using computer graphics for game-maps, and computer processing power to crunch numbers.

I consider a more accurate definition to be a software combination of whiteboard, voice/text chat, and utilities (like a dice roller) that allows tabletop roleplaying to be played by geographically separate gamers.

I also generally add the followig comments. Unlike MMORPGs, VTTs complements rather than supplants traditional tabletop roleplaying. The users of the VTTs uses the same books and procedures. Like all internet based communication VTTs lacks the human contact of face to face which is why gamer still prefer traditional fact to face session. But it does bring advantages in allowing gaming groups to stay together or form despite geographical separation. VTTs can also enhance the tabletop experience with fog of war and automating rules. For example detecting a critical hit or miss and immediately rolling on the correct critical table.

Quote from: warp9;731883So, on the topic of Virtual Table Tops. . . .

What ones are out there?

This a pretty comprehensive list

Quote from: warp9;731883What do people think of this concept?

This probably one of the most important developments in the hobby in the past decade and probably wind up saving it.  

And what do they want to see from a VTT?

The publishers making a ruleset a first class product alongside their books. The real trick is to some up with a standard ruleset" format that VTTs can then import and support.

Quote from: warp9;731883There are a few of them around that I know about. One that I used most recently was Tabletop Forge ( https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/joshuha/tabletop-forge-the-virtual-tabletop-for-google-han ).

It been folded into Roll20 when the developer realized the two shared 90% of the same goals. Plus Roll20 was way more polished in every area except for Google+ integration. The Tabletop Forge developer helped them with that so it all worked out in the end.

Quote from: warp9;731883And, more recent developments which I happened to hear about include: Mote (which I learned about on this site https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/740970397/mote-guaranteed-to-be-the-best-virtual-tabletop-ev ) and Storyscape ( http://slabtowngames.com/  although the Slabtown team seem to be regrouping after the failure of their recent Kickstarter campaign) .

I use Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds myself. Rightnow I think Roll20 is the one to beat. Fantasy Grounds remains the cadillac of VTTs and has pushed out a major new update that makes making new ruleset easier.

Quote from: warp9;731883This topic is of special interest to me because, some years back, I put some work into a VTT of my own.  I ended up mothballing that project, but was considering dusting it off. I was wondering if it was worth going back to, and what directions I should take the project if I did go back to it. That is actually one of the major motivations behind starting this thread (although I would like the thread to be about VTTs in general, rather than focusing entirely on any single application).

I think the field is crowded and the leaders are far ahead of the pack. The killer being not the software side but the easy integration of an on-line store so you can get tokens, maps, and other stuff to use with the VTT. Roll20 has stormed ahead on the strength of being a server based VTT and the outstanding integration of their store.

But the history of software is littered with cases where a better widget won out against a competitor. Hell Roll20 came out of nowhere and not only became the leading web based VTT but also surged to equal or lead Fantasy Grounds, Battlegrounds, RPGTools line.

Quote from: warp9;731883And also tried playing games by play-by-post and play-by-email.

The above two don't replicate a traditional session of tabletop. Their only advantage is that you can update the campaign at leisure.

Quote from: warp9;731883my own vision of a 3D virtual world where the computer handles all the rules (tracks damage, ammo, fatigue, encumbrance, etc), while the GM and players control the various characters.

Neverwinter Nights did this. It a lot of work for little gain. Sorry to be so negative but 3D is always going to be an order of magnitude more difficult to create than just slapping a scanned image of a map in a VTT.

With that said, if somebody, like you, was to be make a go at 3D, then treat it like Dwarven Forge terrain. To wit,

Focus on "sets" whose elements can combine to create many common locales. Just like Dwarven Forge.

Make it a mode within a larger software. Don't make it the primary or only way of running the session. Let me use tokens and an image if that all I want to do.  And example of this Roll20's dynamic lighting. To use Dynamic lighting you have to bring in your map as normal and redraw all the wall using a special invisible layer. Then you can assign lighting to character or object and the place will light up natural. But this is an option over and above just slapping an image up and turning on fog of war.

Quote from: warp9;731883On the other hand, for the computer to track everything it has to know about everything, which would make it pretty hard to make stuff up on the fly, which is something I do a lot as a GM. So there can be some downsides to a project which is as encompassing as what I visualize.

Again think Dwarven Forge. What I would do in your shoes is try to figure out how Roll20 works and then build your stuff to be as similar as possible but focusing on the 3D.  Then offer it to them to intregrate as a mode.

In turn, aside from paying you, they can use their marketplace to offer dwarven forge style sets to use with the 3D Mode.

Quote from: warp9;731884[URL="[url="http://siliconstorm.net/warphex/FlyingAlongDryRiverBed.jpg"]http://siliconstorm.net/warphex/FlyingAlongDryRiverBed.jpg[/url]"Shot of a character flying along a dry creek bed[/URL]. . . .
Hovering at the edge of where the dry creek meets a larger river. . .
.Hovering over a bridge that crosses another point in the river. . . .

Sorry that setup looks to be too much work. What would be nice is a set of 3D "tiles" that I can throw down an snap in. Designed like Dwarven Forge to look good in a variety of configurations.

Roll20 is the top dog right now.  I loved MapTool for its functionality so I hope that Mote is a true heir to it.

I apologize if I missed it in one of the walls o' text above, but what happened to MapTool?

Quote from: Bobloblah;731939I apologize if I missed it in one of the walls o' text above, but what happened to MapTool?

It still have people using it. It has the downside of people needing to fiddle with their routers and not as flashy as Fantasy Grounds. But it free and well made with a line of associated tools to support it.

I thought I remembered something from during the development of Realm Works that they were going to integrate with MapTool...I'll see if I can dig it up...

EDIT: I must be mis-remembering, as all I can find are conversations about potential future integration requests, with nothing, really, from Lone Wolf.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;731907I'm running my current 7th Sea campaign online out of necessity since my brother lives in England.

It's just... awful. An exercise in frustration. Because it's so convenient, normally good players are too relaxed and constantly arrive late. Everyone is tempted to browse the internet when it isn't "me time", slowing down the proceedings when they get caught unawares. Because we can't use body language, facial cues or presence techniques players are constantly interrupting each other. Online dice rollers are clunky, especially if you have unusual dice mechanics.

All that, and the experience just feels less warm. I want to see these people people smiling or gaping, I want to feel their energy.

I can't imagine what it would be like if I had less skilled players. I wish a virtual tabletop really could work because gaming keeps getting tougher to balance with adult life, but I don't think I'll ever do it again.

I'm sorry to hear that your experience was an exercise in frustration.

Most of my own experience in on-line gaming has been by play-by-post, which, as has been pointed out, is not the same as a VTT. And I actually had a very good time with that, although it could go a bit slowly at times.

Quote from: estar;731926I consider a more accurate definition to be a software combination of whiteboard, voice/text chat, and utilities (like a dice roller) that allows tabletop roleplaying to be played by geographically separate gamers.


I also generally add the followig comments. Unlike MMORPGs, VTTs complements rather than supplants traditional tabletop roleplaying. The users of the VTTs uses the same books and procedures. Like all internet based communication VTTs lacks the human contact of face to face which is why gamer still prefer traditional fact to face session. But it does bring advantages in allowing gaming groups to stay together or form despite geographical separation. VTTs can also enhance the tabletop experience with fog of war and automating rules. For example detecting a critical hit or miss and immediately rolling on the correct critical table.

Thanks! That is a better definition than what I had.

Quote from: estar;731926This a pretty comprehensive list

Again thanks---I will check that out.

Quote from: estar;731926And what do they want to see from a VTT?

That is a cool chart of all the features of the different VTTs!

Quote from: estar;731926The above two don't replicate a traditional session of tabletop. Their only advantage is that you can update the campaign at leisure.

Agreed. But I really liked being able to take the extra time to react to what the PCs were doing. Although things could go a bit slowly in some cases.

Quote from: estar;731926

Quotemy own vision of a 3D virtual world where the computer handles all the rules (tracks damage, ammo, fatigue, encumbrance, etc), while the GM and players control the various characters.

Neverwinter Nights did this. It a lot of work for little gain. Sorry to be so negative but 3D is always going to be an order of magnitude more difficult to create than just slapping a scanned image of a map in a VTT.

Yeah, that is a valid point about the 3D stuff. No matter how cool a 3D environment is, it will be irrelevant if it is too much of a pain for the GM to make use of. And Don't worry about being negative. I'm looking for what ever feedback I can get, so your comments are very much appreciated.

Quote from: estar;731926With that said, if somebody, like you, was to be make a go at 3D, then treat it like Dwarven Forge terrain. To wit,

Focus on "sets" whose elements can combine to create many common locales. Just like Dwarven Forge.

Hmm. Interesting suggestion.

Quote from: estar;731926Make it a mode within a larger software. Don't make it the primary or only way of running the session. Let me use tokens and an image if that all I want to do.  And example of this Roll20's dynamic lighting. To use Dynamic lighting you have to bring in your map as normal and redraw all the wall using a special invisible layer. Then you can assign lighting to character or object and the place will light up natural. But this is an option over and above just slapping an image up and turning on fog of war.

If I were going to use my set-up for running a game. I think I'd probably combine it with something like what I had in my play-by-post experiences. I'd make use of the 3D combat simulator part only when I had a specific scene I wanted to play out with it, otherwise I'd stick to more of a free-form environment. So, if I go forward with this project, I'd probably be integrating it with some other environment.

Quote from: estar;731926Again think Dwarven Forge. What I would do in your shoes is try to figure out how Roll20 works and then build your stuff to be as similar as possible but focusing on the 3D.  Then offer it to them to intregrate as a mode.

In turn, aside from paying you, they can use their marketplace to offer dwarven forge style sets to use with the 3D Mode.

I will look into Roll20, and see what I think.

And thanks for all the useful suggestions.

Quote from: Bobloblah;731939I apologize if I missed it in one of the walls o' text above, but what happened to MapTool?

I'd like to hear more about MapTool---it sounds like it has some cool features.

And it is my understanding that Mote is trying to extend MapTool functionality.

I believe my security tech uses Maptool extensively for online RPG sessions and has used it for tracking movement for local group meeting once.

Seems to work well. But he said converting and prepping a map was a nuisance. Otherwise seems to work fairly well.

Quote from: warp9;731990Hmm. Interesting suggestion.

The more I think about it the Dwarven Forge style approach would probably "solve" the issues with 3D and online tabletop roleplaying. We already have people dealing with the issues of managing 3D terrain during face to face. Just like the virtual Whiteboard is a good translation of the real whiteboard that many use. Perhaps looking at how 3D terrain are used in actual play would give insight on how to make a VTT to incorporate them.

If it was a Roll20 Add-on, you approach of using them for specific encounter would be easy. Just make a 3D "map" instead of a 2D map with the sets you own or uploaded. Then switch over when it is time. Or just throw in tile pieces as the party moves through the map which is another way of using Dwarven Forge.

Quote from: warp9;731990I will look into Roll20, and see what I think.

And thanks for all the useful suggestions.

No problem, I prefer face to face (and still running sessions at the local game store) but been using VTT for five years now to keep my original group together.