So, I tried to bring this up in another thread which seemed to be the wrong thread for it. For those of you who have bought Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, what does it say about law enforcement, crime and violence? Aside from what we know from the marketing stuff, I mean. I don't want to let this thread derail into "Radiant Citadel bad and this is why" (though I do frown upon it a bit), just the facts. To be specific (I lifted this part from the original question):

- Can't people commit violence, or won't people commit violence?
- Why not? Can't because of magic or a deity, or won't because of ideology?
- Is the lack of an efficient guard a cause or a consequence of the lack of violence?
- How does this manifest itself, as in, are there no thieves' guilds or assassin's guilds at all there?

I know, probably redundant, but once summer is over, my party will probably journey through the radiant citadel, by ways of preparation I need to know the resistance they can, can't, will or won't meet.

Cheers

Oh God not another Radiant Citadel thread

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 11:35:12 AM
To be specific (I lifted this part from the original question):

- Can't people commit violence, or won't people commit violence?
- Why not? Can't because of magic or a deity, or won't because of ideology?
- Is the lack of an efficient guard a cause or a consequence of the lack of violence?
- How does this manifest itself, as in, are there no thieves' guilds or assassin's guilds at all there?

In general for a D&D community with good-aligned authorities and/or clerics of good-aligned deities - crime is likely to be highly deterred if they have resources like Zone of Truth (2nd level) for questioning, Locate Object (2nd level) for finding stolen goods, and Speak With Dead (3rd level) for discussion with the murdered.

In the case of Radiant Citadel, you mention lack of an efficient guard - but that's misinformation. It's explicitly stated in the book that there are "highly trained local guards" who handle violent crime, and inspectors who handle non-violent crime.

People can commit violence, but it is deterred because there are powerful good-aligned authorities - like the ancient brass dragon who is the oldest leader of the city - as well as highly trained local guards. Crime and violence happen, but they're rare. There is no mention of a thieves guild or assassins guild, but it is stated that trade is never risk free.

Quote from: jhkim on July 22, 2022, 12:53:25 PM

Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 11:35:12 AM
To be specific (I lifted this part from the original question):

- Can't people commit violence, or won't people commit violence?
- Why not? Can't because of magic or a deity, or won't because of ideology?
- Is the lack of an efficient guard a cause or a consequence of the lack of violence?
- How does this manifest itself, as in, are there no thieves' guilds or assassin's guilds at all there?

In general for a D&D community with good-aligned authorities and/or clerics of good-aligned deities - crime is likely to be highly deterred if they have resources like Zone of Truth (2nd level) for questioning, Locate Object (2nd level) for finding stolen goods, and Speak With Dead (3rd level) for discussion with the murdered.

In the case of Radiant Citadel, you mention lack of an efficient guard - but that's misinformation. It's explicitly stated in the book that there are "highly trained local guards" who handle violent crime, and inspectors who handle non-violent crime.

People can commit violence, but it is deterred because there are powerful good-aligned authorities - like the ancient brass dragon who is the oldest leader of the city - as well as highly trained local guards. Crime and violence happen, but they're rare. There is no mention of a thieves guild or assassins guild, but it is stated that trade is never risk free.

Thank  you for a constructive answer!

Replying from comments on this topic from the other thread,

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 05:14:05 PM

Quote from: Omega on July 23, 2022, 03:09:51 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 10:04:22 PM

Nope, from what I understand it is just because they have such a perfect leftist multicultural society that there's almost no crime or violence.

Turns out what it really is is they have police/gustapo while trying to pass them off as Citizen Patrols. uh-huh. Suuuuure.

Not police. "Citizen patrols" are like the Government-supporting street gangs in Venezuela. It's like what happened in Seattle during the CHAZ.

None of this follows from the text of actual book. The law enforcement section specifies that there are "highly trained guards" who deal with violence, and inspectors who deal with non-violent crime. It does say that citizens are expected to proactively intervene if necessary, but that's not the same thing.

Given that there are highly trained professional authorities, it clearly isn't like Seattle's CHAZ. In any case, something like this was the norm for nearly all cities prior to the development of professional police in the 1800s.

Right so they have police as expected they would. Bog standard city guard.

So as expected this whole "safe space' and 'no crime or violence' claims WOTC made were yet another sham.

Quote from: Omega on July 24, 2022, 12:47:08 AM
Right so they have police as expected they would. Bog standard city guard.

So as expected this whole "safe space' and 'no crime or violence' claims WOTC made were yet another sham.

Can you share the details of the claim made? I suspect that neither of those are actual quotes, and that they're exaggerations of the actual claims made.

The law enforcement section says the guards are "highly trained" but doesn't give stats. I've found more details in the "Entering the Citadel" section, which says that there are six guards at the gate using standard Guard NPC, as well as one standard Mage NPC and one standard Priest NPC. Using standard stat blocks is probably for simplicity, though. It also says the guards there employ magic items such as helm of telepathy when suspicious of the motives of a visitor. That's seems pretty invasive on mere suspicion, but it does suggest they have powerful resources.

I think the intent is that the inspectors and guards are better than typical for a fantasy city - through being highly trained as well as the magic items mentioned. The city leadership has strong resources, as the most prominent leader of the city is an ancient brass dragon, as well as having the fifteen magical gem beings to draw on.

I don't like the city write-up in general, but I feel like the stuff about Defund the Police is off-base. It's pushing a moderate model of reformed professional policing rather than radical community policing.

Quote from: jhkim on July 22, 2022, 12:53:25 PM

In the case of Radiant Citadel, you mention lack of an efficient guard - but that's misinformation. It's explicitly stated in the book that there are "highly trained local guards" who handle violent crime, and inspectors who handle non-violent crime.

Barney Fife certainly thought he was a "highly trained local guard." I could imagine a whole gaggle of guards armed with Wands of Magic Missile with one charge each, which is kept in their shirt pocket.

I'd probably run the head guard as Barney and the rest as the various other members of the Mayberry Deputy Guard. The big brass dragon boss would be Andy.

I have a group where maybe one would figure it out. This is admittedly a very smartass and glib interpretation, but the DM has to have some fun too.

The truth is, WotC doesn't want to tell you that the Radiant Citadel is actually like North Korea, and it's only a powerful glamer spell that makes it look like some kind of paradise.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on July 25, 2022, 01:27:03 AM
The truth is, WotC doesn't want to tell you that the Radiant Citadel is actually like North Korea, and it's only a powerful glamer spell that makes it look like some kind of paradise.

So...like "The Emerald City" in the "Wonderful Wizard of Oz" (the only reason the city looks green is because everyone is required to don green-tinted glasses before entering), or "The eyes of the Overworld", where using demon-eye contact lenses makes everything look beautiful, but taking the lenses out shows that everything and everyone is a disgusting mess.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on July 25, 2022, 01:27:03 AM
The truth is, WotC doesn't want to tell you that the Radiant Citadel is actually like North Korea, and it's only a powerful glamer spell that makes it look like some kind of paradise.

WOTC stole all the best ideas from the RPG: Spire by Rowan, Rook, and Decard while ignoring everything below the city.

Quote from: jhkim on July 24, 2022, 01:19:49 PM
Can you share the details of the claim made? I suspect that neither of those are actual quotes, and that they're exaggerations of the actual claims made.

Cant find it but pretty sure was one of the early designer interviews. And it is exactly the sort of misinformation WOTC keeps pulling so odds are that was the party line. Though their current blurbs on the site do not back that up. Though that seems to be more refferencing dangers away from the Citadel as it seems to be a Sigil knock-off.

Quote from: Omega on July 27, 2022, 05:29:45 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 24, 2022, 01:19:49 PM
Can you share the details of the claim made? I suspect that neither of those are actual quotes, and that they're exaggerations of the actual claims made.

Cant find it but pretty sure was one of the early designer interviews. And it is exactly the sort of misinformation WOTC keeps pulling so odds are that was the party line. Though their current blurbs on the site do not back that up. Though that seems to be more refferencing dangers away from the Citadel as it seems to be a Sigil knock-off.

Evolving the material between early designer interviews and finished product isn't necessarily a deceptive practice. This is however, why many companies keep their cards close until after the final product drops. That way they can talk about what the product is rather than what it was prior to the final cut. At that point, it is also more acceptable to discuss what it might have been because nobody will then feel like a promised bit is missing. Ok, someone that wants to get upset still will, but whatever.

Quote from: Omega on July 27, 2022, 05:29:45 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 24, 2022, 01:19:49 PM
Can you share the details of the claim made? I suspect that neither of those are actual quotes, and that they're exaggerations of the actual claims made.

Cant find it but pretty sure was one of the early designer interviews. And it is exactly the sort of misinformation WOTC keeps pulling so odds are that was the party line. Though their current blurbs on the site do not back that up. Though that seems to be more refferencing dangers away from the Citadel as it seems to be a Sigil knock-off.

OK, I can't discount this - but it also seems possible that the claims are being exaggerated. You could potentially use the Wayback Machine to look at earlier versions.

I'm not familiar with Sigil, so I couldn't say offhand how similar it is.

In general, I think the Radiant Citadel isn't very interesting or important to the adventures. It's just a thin wrapper to connect the 13 adventures. I would probably handle it quite differently.