Now I like to use the "vintage gaming" expression a lot. We even have a Facebook group for those (created by Stormbringer, admined by yours truly, and soon reaching 700 members- linky link).

It just got me thinking... could a case be made (amongst about a zillion possible definitions) that vintage gaming is more or less about games which were published prior to the explosion in popularity of the Magic trading card game? If so, is this just a matter of coincidence, the two elements having no precise relationship with each other, or is there more to it than that?

Discuss.

What direct influences did Magic: the Gathering have on the design of tabletop rpg games during (and after) that time period?

Quote from: ggroy;456502What direct influences did Magic: the Gathering have on the design of tabletop rpg games during (and after) that time period?

That's part of the question. As I remember it back in France, Magic made a huge splash in the gaming hobby in those years (mid-1990s). There was constant talk about about the game, it was played widely between games in clubs and conventions, etc. Many people came to decry the success of the game, saying it was stealing tabletop RPGs thunder. Could it be argued that this shift in gaming prompted gamers to focus on other types of RPGs indirectly, or that the design of Magic itself influenced later RPG designs? I'm not sure, hence this thread.

Quote from: ggroy;456502What direct influences did Magic: the Gathering have on the design of tabletop rpg games during (and after) that time period?

I would say the most immediate influence would be the incidence of more strict timing rules in RPGs.

Attempting to emulate MtG and Pokemon led WotC to start pushing the minis game aspect of D&D, which for the short term did give us cheap minis, bet led to a marketing mentality that I don't think was well suited to the D&D game.

But I think all that hit long after the timeframe which I'd call "vintage".

I think the impact was more social than design. The only game design I seen so far that borrows liberally from Magic is D&D 4th edition.

Quote from: Benoist;456503As I remember it back in France, Magic made a huge splash in the gaming hobby in those years (mid-1990s). There was constant talk about about the game, it was played widely between games in clubs and conventions, etc. Many people came to decry the success of the game, saying it was stealing tabletop RPGs thunder.

I've witnessed the exact same phenomenon here in Brazil. The local RPG popularity spike occurred circa 1992-1994, and was soon replaced by a M:tG fad. Game stores and public spaces previously dominated by RPG games became overrun with Magic games.

But I tend to agree with Rob...

Quote from: estar;456517I think the impact was more social than design. The only game design I seen so far that borrows liberally from Magic is D&D 4th edition.

...and I'm not even that sure about 4e.

People left RPGs for M:tG in droves.

Most of these same gamers, I'll bet, left M:tG for something else (or nothing, most likely) in droves, a couple of years later. If they didn't, I wonder why is it that it's become so rare to see people my age playing M:tG.

Quote from: The Butcher;456522People left RPGs for M:tG in droves.

Most of these same gamers, I'll bet, left M:tG for something else (or nothing, most likely) in droves, a couple of years later.

What became popular after the M:tG boom and bust?

If I had to guess, some of these people went to Everquest and/or 3E D&D.

Quote from: The Butcher;456522I wonder why is it that it's become so rare to see people my age playing M:tG.

At the nearby gaming stores, most of the M:tG players I see are in their 20's or early 30's.  Haven't seen many M:tG players who are over 40.

Quote from: ggroy;456525What became popular after the M:tG boom and bust?

If I had to guess, some of these people went to Everquest and/or 3E D&D.

Possibly true for North American and European gamers. EQ was never big 'round these parts, and M:tG was decadent well before 3e around here.

Quote from: ggroy;456525At the nearby gaming stores, most of the M:tG players I see are in their 20's or early 30's.  Haven't seen many M:tG players who are over 40.

Early 30s would be my age. I haven't seen a lot of M:tG players in this age category at the LGS. This is all anecdotal, though.

I think you can argue the advent of M:tG was a turning point for the INDUSTRY of RPGs, but not so much for the hobby.

To me, the demarcation line between "vintage" games and later games would have to be marked at either the release of 2e AD&D, or the release of Vampire and the start of the White-Wolf era of "Storytelling" games as the dominant paradigm for the better part of a decade in the hobby.  Of the two, I think the former is more significant for D&D (though, it being D&D, that makes it significant for the entire hobby) and the latter was vastly significant in its effects on the hobby as a whole.

Of course, that is connected in a way to the advent of M:tG and the latter's success in basically stealing away the entire generation of new players from that era; the shift in mentality about RPGs brought about by the White-Wolf style of game/setting design made the hobby particularly ill equipped to offer any decent defense against the poaching of its own youth; on the contrary, the hobby basically threw that young generation away in its insistence that the future of gaming was in making "grown up" games full of deep dark ambiance, "mature themes" and metaplot.  M:tG was a game with particular appeal for younger players that had the additional good fortune to come along at a time when the RPG hobby had basically said it didn't want younger players anymore.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Benoist;456500It just got me thinking... could a case be made (amongst about a zillion possible definitions) that vintage gaming is more or less about games which were published prior to the explosion in popularity of the Magic trading card game? If so, is this just a matter of coincidence, the two elements having no precise relationship with each other, or is there more to it than that?

Discuss.

I would disagree.

M:tG did not have a big effect on game rules, but I would say that it did have a big effect on game distribution to stores. Distributors found that they could make more money shipping M:tG than they could an equal weight of RPGs. That, in turn, affected the gaming industry as a whole.

mtg had a massive impact in Australia amongst gamers of all ages (not just the kids). For about a year it was tough to run an RPG because everyone showed up with their decks and wanted to give them a run. Thankfully most did return to RPGs but it was a close thing.

To address the OP, however, 'vintage' was already long gone by then. Mtg was the perfect storm for gamers. You had the fantasy element and instant action plus unbuilt complexity to keep you interested. It would have been just as big in the 70s. It's only limiting factor was people's disposable income...

You can not over estimate the impact of MtG on the hobby.

MtG was designed as a game to play in the downtime when you were wating around at cons. In the late 90s and early 2000s it was the con. Even now at GenCon there is a huge CCG room.

MTG chnaged all sorts of standards. As it made money it also single-handedly created a sub-culture of artists who could survice on CCG commissions and spin offs. This in turn meant the standard of art and production in other games lept.

Games stores shifted from boardgames and RPGs to CCG albums with some RPGs and boxes at the back someplace. One of the most amazing things I was as in the mid 90s at the Virgin Mega store in London. The games area was like a MTG hub. This one time maybe 100 people were sitting round buying cards opening them trading, playing. Literally sitting on the floor in a store in central london.

Rules changed. The CCG cemented the exception based design paradigm. The game engine is simple with a single core unified mechanic. The complexity comes in the exceptions, be they feats, powers, skills, talents, spells,  whatever.

Wizards went from being the guys that produced a couple of crappy games to THE FORCE in the industry. They bought D&D for goodness sake.

I for one love MTG it really is one of the cleanest tightest most inventive games I have ever seen. We played it to death, at the expense of RPGs for a few years and recently I have gotten back into it (we missed like 44 expansions so I pick up a box of boosters everynow and then and we run little booster draft games).

The terms "vintage gaming", and "old-school gaming", the definitions and goal posts move as time advances.
 
The same works with music and literature. It used to be an album from the 70s or a book written in the 20s, now its all classed as 20th Century.

Quote from: Benoist;456503As I remember it back in France, Magic made a huge splash in the gaming hobby in those years (mid-1990s). There was constant talk about about the game, it was played widely between games in clubs and conventions, etc. Many people came to decry the success of the game, saying it was stealing tabletop RPGs thunder.

Quote from: The Butcher;456522I've witnessed the exact same phenomenon here in Brazil. The local RPG popularity spike occurred circa 1992-1994, and was soon replaced by a M:tG fad. Game stores and public spaces previously dominated by RPG games became overrun with Magic games.

People left RPGs for M:tG in droves.

Most of these same gamers, I'll bet, left M:tG for something else (or nothing, most likely) in droves, a couple of years later. If they didn't, I wonder why is it that it's become so rare to see people my age playing M:tG.

Quote from: Fiasco;456710mtg had a massive impact in Australia amongst gamers of all ages (not just the kids). For about a year it was tough to run an RPG because everyone showed up with their decks and wanted to give them a run. Thankfully most did return to RPGs but it was a close thing.

Is there a place where Magic the Gathering was not a massive success? I wonder.

I hate to say it, but I have to agree with Pundit on this one.  MtG hit game rules as a whole and may have sapped some players, but its not the real cause of the RPG paradigm shift that occurred.

Interesting to note the effects of MtG, which was originally designed as a small-investment game for breaks in your D&D game.