Quote from: ffilz;1052996Personally I don't think the hobby is well served by trying to draw lines that include or exclude particular games.

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with dice. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Ffliz? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for D&D4e and you curse the grognards. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that D&D4e's failure, while tragic, probably saved gaming. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves gamers. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like hit points, alignment, hirelings. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent rolling dice and eating cheetos. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up your dice and roll up your character. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1053027You seriously don't have time for 'uhs'. I see this complaint a lot lately and I am getting the impression people may just be repeating stuff they hear online. This often to me feels like the whole never use passive voice thing. Personally I'd rather hear how people speak naturally (including the ums and uhs as they think their way around a topic) than have a bunch of jump cuts that mask them (or have the person obsess over them). Most of the you tubers I enjoy, don't use jump cuts and have those kinds of speech patterns. No real opinion on the tweet situation as I know little about over the edge. But this production value complaint seems like a quibble.

The whole dont "uh" was what I was taught both in school and during speech therapy, of which I needed alot.

I just came across a Harvard article on it and it hits on alot of the same things we were taught and even uses a similar phrasing "pause, think, answer." except it was more like "pause, think, continue" and how the "uhs" interfere with getting your point across in the oration lessons in elementary school. https://www.extension.harvard.edu/inside-extension/tips-public-speaking-eliminating-dreaded-um

Back on the other topic. Because oddly enough the "uhs" is a topic here... ahem...

The real question might be what is Tweets idea of what a storygame or storytelling game is? Is it closer to the Forge's and Pundits swine's "everything on earth"? Or is it more like White Wolfs "RPG with trendy new term slapped on for marketing."? Or something in between.

Has he defined what he thinks one is other than stating Over the Edge is one?

Did Tweet & Ryan Dancey work together?  I can honestly not remember, but I ask because I recall Dancey coming in with similarly addlepated ideas straight into Pundit's forum.  He was told, time and again:  no, old-school (NOT OSR) D&D players do not want fuckin' "Dogs in the Vineyard set in Greyhawk".  He then proceeded to jump around telling us we were wrong, that AD&D was a story game, and then when I pretty much told him he was wrong (mechanically, objectively, not anything subjective) about AD&D he quit the discussion claiming he'd won because we were wrong and we were wrong because he'd won and thereafter never posted here again.

J. Tweet's approach seems to have that same color, that's why I'm asking.

Dancey and Tweet both worked on 3E, albeit in very different capacities.

The definitions I'm using for Storygames come right out of Forge Theory.

Quote from: Omega;1053257The whole dont "uh" was what I was taught both in school and during speech therapy, of which I needed alot.

I just came across a Harvard article on it and it hits on alot of the same things we were taught and even uses a similar phrasing "pause, think, answer." except it was more like "pause, think, continue" and how the "uhs" interfere with getting your point across in the oration lessons in elementary school. https://www.extension.harvard.edu/inside-extension/tips-public-speaking-eliminating-dreaded-um

I encountered this idea in classes as well. And I think in formal settings, like giving a business presentation, it can be useful. I also think it can be a stylistic choice for some people. But I also disagree somewhat with the conclusions in the linked article. My feeling is it comes across as stiff when people totally remove these kinds of conversational mannerisms from their speaking voice. And there is a place for conversational styles of public speaking (particularly on platforms like youtube). My experience is most people are not bothered about 'ums' unless the speaker uses them excessively, or unless someone like Stephen D Cohen tells them they are a bad idea (just like no one really notices the passive voice that much until it is brought to their attention). Again, not saying the advice doesn't have a place. But it is largely a stylistic issue. Personally, I find I prefer speakers who have a conversational style that includes the use of 'ums' (particularly when it indicates that they are thinking). And I think people get too caught up in looking for it, simply because a teacher once told them 'never um and uh' or 'never use the passive voice'. I mention them together because they are similarly repeated on the internet, and I don't think it is necessarily good for us to take that advice too much to heart.

When it comes to the types of video presentations we are talking about, people have two basic options to remove ums and uhs. One is to edit. That is fine, but it impacts the overall flow of the recording. And it presents us with a version of the speaker that doesn't match the reality. Some people want to sound exactly the way they do in real life, rather than present a more perfect version of themselves. Personally, I have more respect for you tubers who don't use jump cuts to work around those kinds of quirks in their speech. The second option is to cultivate a way of speaking that avoids ums and uhs. That is fine if you want to do that (I did that for a speaking for business course once). The problem is once you cultivate it, it can be difficult to turn off, and it can impact how you talk to people in your daily life. Not everyone wants to sound that way when they are talking to their friends and family (because again it can come off as stiff). Ultimately, it is a choice. If it genuinely bothers people, they shouldn't listen to people who um and uh. But I just question how many people it truly bothers, unless they've been told they should be bothered by it. And I think the notion expressed in an earlier post, that it somehow wasted the listener's time, makes zero sense.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1053294The definitions I'm using for Storygames come right out of Forge Theory.

Well there's your problem right there.

Fuck uhs and umms. Everyone should shut their pie hole during pauses. No reason to be uttering sounds that don't add content. Uhs aren't guitar solos between sentences.

We taught that in special education decades ago. I actually had kids do air guitar or air drums instead of umms.

The main reason is if you're thinking about what to say next, there's no need to give audio to that. Silence isn't your enemy. More importantly, uhs and umms drain gravitas from the speaker's voice.

And that's particularly rough with podcasts, or videos where you are not engaged by body language, facial expressions, etc.

Yes, I know we're all supposed to only judge content, but humans fucking suck and highly value presentation.

THAT SAID...there are certainly people making BANK with unedited podcasts/videos full of uhs and umms.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1053067

I never understood how Jack Nicholson wasn't the hero of A Few Good Men.

And Kyle, that rendition was awesome.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1053350Fuck uhs and umms. Everyone should shut their pie hole during pauses. No reason to be uttering sounds that don't add content. Uhs aren't guitar solos between sentences.

We taught that in special education decades ago. I actually had kids do air guitar or air drums instead of umms.

The main reason is if you're thinking about what to say next, there's no need to give audio to that. Silence isn't your enemy. More importantly, uhs and umms drain gravitas from the speaker's voice.

And that's particularly rough with podcasts, or videos where you are not engaged by body language, facial expressions, etc.

Yes, I know we're all supposed to only judge content, but humans fucking suck and highly value presentation.

THAT SAID...there are certainly people making BANK with unedited podcasts/videos full of uhs and umms.

But you are not accounting for difference in taste. I can understand, if the amount of ums and uhs are overwhelming. But all I can say, is I would genuinely prefer to listen to someone who occasionally ums or uhs when they are thinking about their response. I find it much more conversational and natural sounding. It definitely doesn't impact my ability to understand what is being said. Maybe this is an issue that has been important to you for a while. Some people like high production values. Some people are naturally suspicious of high production values. And some folk are perfectly aware that we are often instructed not to use ums and uhs and think it is a stupid rule. Whether you are pausing, or whether you are filling in that space with a sound, you are still breaking the flow in some way. I can still tell you are having a moment to gather your thoughts if there is a pause. It doesn't make an enormous functional difference if that pause is silent or has sound. But I think the more natural impulse is to fill it with sound. So when I hear someone who pauses instead, it comes off as overly polished to me.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;1053352But you are not accounting for difference in taste.

YouTube in full sensorama must be quite an experience!

As I said, plenty of ummers are making piles of dough on YT and podcasts so clearly there's an audience for unpolished, more "natural" work. I have no idea if that audience is putting up with the uhs and umms because the content is so compelling to them or whether they don't notice / don't mind / don't care.

Though...I hear people talk about how content matters so much to them, but then won't watch excellent older films or brilliant low budget films because of the lack of modern studio production values.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1053378YouTube in full sensorama must be quite an experience!

As I said, plenty of ummers are making piles of dough on YT and podcasts so clearly there's an audience for unpolished, more "natural" work. I have no idea if that audience is putting up with the uhs and umms because the content is so compelling to them or whether they don't notice / don't mind / don't care.

I think people just enjoy work that isn't edited and people who seem like they are speaking in their normal voice. Personally I dislike when podcasts or youtube videos cut around that stuff. I will watch/listen to some despite that because the content is good enough. But when I hear the jump cutting, I know surgery has been done what the person is saying and I am not getting an unfiltered, continuous series of thoughts from them (which matters because I thin it is very easy to edit together a cogent point and a lot harder to make one on the fly in a live discussion). Again though, at the end of the day, there isn't really much difference between a pause and an 'uh'. I've never understood why the classroom has given the pause special place, when it has pretty much the same impact on what the person is saying. If someone can eliminate the pause itself, and not have any break in what they are saying, then that would be something more. But since the pause and the uh are used to think about what you are saying, I think there is usually a trade off even with that.

QuoteThough...I hear people talk about how content matters so much to them, but then won't watch excellent older films or brilliant low budget films because of the lack of modern studio production values.

They are missing out. Well produced and polished doesn't equal good content. Nothing wrong with enjoying a film that is well polished. But there are a lot of truly great movies that people spoiled by modern styles of film making have a hard time enjoying.

I find people in the hobby use the word "storygame" a lot like some people use the word "hipster". It's simultaneously a vague, sometimes contradictory, derogatory statement, and held up by some as a banner of newness, media-challenging, and progressive notions. It serves a social purpose and muddies, rather than clarifies, classification.

I suspect Johnathan Tweet is probably just trying to seem cool to a certain crowd, which is fine. He's already cool. Over the Edge is already a great game. But labels on these things are a quagmire of socio-political nonsense. Heck, Kurt Vonnegut jr. insisted his novels weren't science fiction. They still won Hugo and Nebula awards for science fiction. You can always leave the meta-textual analysis to critics.

//Panjumanju

So, a story-game is a game for story creation. Like those Batman story dice my son bought.

D&D can and has been drifted to be a story creation game, but as Rob says, it's really intended more for you-are-the-hero immersion with a side order of wargaming.

Lots of RPGs do include metagame mechanics designed to make the result of game play resemble a particular kind of story (eg Fate points, Drama points, Force points and some Action Points). Forge theory says these aren't story creation games, they're story simulation games, more akin to pastiche than Real Drama.  I expect Over The Edge falls in this category.