I use Fantasy Grounds2 (purchased) and Maptool (freeware) to play and run online RPGs. I "get it".

If you aren't familiar with these programs, there are chat functions (where you can speak as your character or any NPC if you are the GM), dice rollers, maps, tokens, character sheets, combat/initiative trackers, searchable rules databases, and all kinds of neat features. A lot of people like using voice chat as well. It really emulates table-top gaming pretty well. With text chat for IC talk and voice chat for BSing and OOC stuff, the social aspect increases a bit.

There are two gaming groups where I live. The first one is a big official, not-for-profit club. There are quite a few people who annoy the heck out of me and so I don't run/play games there. I have a smaller group of actual friends I play with, but most only have time for a single bi-weekly game. I really want to start running a new campaign, so I am going to use VTTs to run it, as I can draw players in from all over the country, including various friends in other states who I haven't been able to play face to face with in a while.

If I had the choice, I'd play all of my games in person, face to face. Since some of my favorite gaming buddies live on the other side of the country, that's not always an option. For those times when I can't find a good local group, I can go online.

Regarding WotC's product, I'll be darned if I'm going to give them $9.95 a month for something I can already do with my purchased/freeware programs.

Quote from: StuartI understand how it was developed, and how they intend people to use it.  I'm just disagreeing on whether it really emulates the tabletop experience where it really matters.  You can buy the videogame version of all sorts of boardgames and play them against people online (with voice chat if you like)... but it's just not the same.  It's not about rules and mechanics.

I don't get why you think Rules and mechanics matter. Having software support for rules helps but it not at the core of what makes these products useful. Computer wargames that emulate a boardgame are completely different. The closest thing to these type of programs are those like Aid-de-camp or cyberboard which enables support for play by email.

As for emulating the tabletop experience all I can say it does it 9/10th of the way. The missing element is the face to face interaction which is replaced by voice or if you are lucky webcam. But it not the same as being there with the person. There are advantages in terms of hiding the battleboard, and displaying information. Plus being able to privately chat (text) with a player. If you use text mode then you have a perfect record of your session which is useful.

Quote from: StuartI'm sure some people will use it and like it, and that's great (honestly).  I don't think it will have a broad appeal though.  It won't bring in WoW players, and it won't bring in non-gamers.  It will appeal to some section of the current RPG players.  Not sure how many, but certainly much less than the total number.  Probably by quite a lot.

I think you are right but not for the reasons given. I think people being what they are will prefer being at a table with other people than over a internet like.

It will have the biggest impact in these three areas

1) People whose group scatter through life circumstance can continue playing
2) People who still live close but life circumstance preclude the time investment of driving over. (This mostly comes up when you have kids)
3) People who live in sparsely populated areas can have a bigger choice of gaming.

There will be a segment that will enjoy the advantages of internet play over the tabletop but again the appeal of social interaction will trump this for the larger market.

Quote from: SettembriniSure. But this is for ultra-hardcore people. That is not actually something really making the DI or the 4th edition exciting.

I agree that this will not make DI or 4th Edition exciting to most people.

However I disagree that this is for ultra-hardcore people. The Technology has developed to the point where it doesn't take a computer person to set it all up. It may be that DI simplifies this even further.

Note that I been doing this on a bi-weekly basis since March.

Rob Conley

Quote from: John MorrowDoes it run on a Mac?

They got version that run on a Mac. I believe Open RPG definitely does. You will have to check around for others.

Quote from: GoOrangeRegarding WotC's product, I'll be darned if I'm going to give them $9.95 a month for something I can already do with my purchased/freeware programs.

In their defense it all depends on the value they add. Certainly it going to be limited to D&D and/or SW Saga which means it will have zero appeal to other systems. But there is certainly room for improvement in the current batch of software (like hex support dammit).

Quote from: StuartI'm sure some people will use it and like it, and that's great (honestly).  I don't think it will have a broad appeal though.  It won't bring in WoW players, and it won't bring in non-gamers.  It will appeal to some section of the current RPG players.  Not sure how many, but certainly much less than the total number.  Probably by quite a lot.

I think the broadest demographic will be gamers who enjoy the tactical components of play. If the overwhelming number of D&D threads I see here, there and everyehere are anything to go by then that's a substantial number of people indeed.

I also think it will appeal to more casual gamers. I'm by no means a hardcore D&D player, but if I knew an online game was available right now, with graphical support and voice interaction then I'd click and play. I don't need to go anyhere or (presumably) do anything other than have my online character available for DM approval. Sweet. Game on.

Where I can see the system falling short of expectations is at the social level. How it manages IC and OOC actions and dialogue needs to be addressed, as does player screening. Hooking up with a bunch of shrieking 12-year-old Tourettes victims isn't my cup of tea, nor is a game that stresses combat only. I'd like to see how the game deals with visual representation when the battlemat isn't in use-- looking at a D&D screensaver when there's a lull in the action kind of defeats the object, in my opinion.


That said, I'm pretty excited by the prospect. To my knowldedge this the first time something like this has been attempted. There's bound to be some bugs and outright fuck ups in the early days. As the technology is refined and experience is gained it's only likely to improve, though.

Quote from: DrewI'd like to see how the game deals with visual representation when the battlemat isn't in use-- looking at a D&D screensaver when there's a lull in the action kind of defeats the object, in my opinion.

Current programs handle this by allowing the GM to show any arbitrary bitmap/graphic. For example in my session, I have not only "battlemats" but the regional map, the local city map, texts, pictures, etc, etc.

Fantasy Grounds has a demo with a preloaded module you can look at.

Do we know if the program has all the mechanics of gaming built in, or is it just a visual aid? i.e. Will we be able to input our character stats and skills and have the tasks resolved by on-screen rolls, or is that still manual?

Quote from: WerekoalaDo we know if the program has all the mechanics of gaming built in, or is it just a visual aid? i.e. Will we be able to input our character stats and skills and have the tasks resolved by on-screen rolls, or is that still manual?

The clip from the demo presentation showed an electronic dice roller.

Quote from: estarCurrent programs handle this by allowing the GM to show any arbitrary bitmap/graphic. For example in my session, I have not only "battlemats" but the regional map, the local city map, texts, pictures, etc, etc.

Fantasy Grounds has a demo with a preloaded module you can look at.

Cool.

Quote from: DrewThe clip from the demo presentation showed an electronic dice roller.

Yes, but my question was - is that ALL it does, or does the program know your skills and stats and such and resolve combat, for example, for you?

Quote from: WerekoalaDo we know if the program has all the mechanics of gaming built in, or is it just a visual aid? i.e. Will we be able to input our character stats and skills and have the tasks resolved by on-screen rolls, or is that still manual?

The current generation of Virtual Tabletop have a character sheet built in that has some automated support (like entering a number for a attribute will fill in the bonus). They have some sort of combat tracker that allows you to track initiative and damage. For damage some allow a dice roll result to be dragged into the hp box and be deducted.

None of the current generation resolves combat. While it is possible to program some type of combat resolver. I doubt anything will be done with that. Likely what we will see in the future is some type of action resolver. Like right click the figure, choose grapple, and then click on the target. A result dialog shows up. Even then it will probably be only for  a few common actions.

The current generation has dice rollers that allow you do a variety of dice combinations. Some even make it look like you threw the dice. There is a weakness that none of the visual throwing method support throwing different types of die (like a d4 + d8, etc) 3d6 is fine, 15d10 is fine. 1d6-1 is fine.  You generally have an chat command that can roll dice in any combination. The chat command is more flexible than the graphical roll.

The current generation Virtual Tabletop manages text notes, and graphics along with the battleboard.

The major thing to overcome starting out with Virtual Table-top is assembling all the graphics, tokens, and maps you want to use. This is no different than when you first started RPGs and had no minatures, props, or battlemats.

If you are a bare-bones DM who does a lot of verbal descriptions you will still need to some graphics prep as the only way to show anything visually is with a graphic. For example, I found I did a lot gesturing at the table. Of course when I pointed at something none of the other players could see my hand. So I found a pointing hand graphic and moved that with the mouse to indicate stuff.

In the end you will find that virtual table-top doesn't replace getting together. However it will extend your opportunities for gaming and allow you to overcome problems when people can't get together at the same location.

Quote from: WerekoalaYes, but my question was - is that ALL it does, or does the program know your skills and stats and such and resolve combat, for example, for you?

Sorry, I misread.

As far as I know character stats and computations will be handled electronically. In the clip they mention being able to store multiple versions of your character online, statted out at different levels.

The details are a little foggy at the moment, but it sounds as though they're aiming to manage most of the task resoloution stuff via the software. The DM sets a DC, the player hits "roll d20," and the outcome is determined. At least that's how it looks at the moment.

Quote from: estarIn the end you will find that virtual table-top doesn't replace getting together. However it will extend your opportunities for gaming and allow you to overcome problems when people can't get together at the same location.

Indeed.

I think this is where a lot of the paranoia is coming from. Some think that Wizard's are trying to replace the tabletop experience with an inferior electronic format. They're not. It's being presented as an alternative, nothing more.

Quote from: estarI don't get why you think Rules and mechanics matter.

I don't.

I'm saying that if I choose to sit down at a table and play a tabletop game, that's different than wanting to sit in front of the computer and play a game.  It's a analogue / social thing.