Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m20AJvdzAdo
So. Bad. :eek:
I'm not a computer geek, so that doesn't look all that bad to me. Heck, I actually kinda like the way it looks.
Huh? What's so bad about that?
That map-tiles thing actually looks very useful. The custom character miniature builder might not be the greatest thing ever, but again, it looks marginally useful.
It looks good, like some form of "Fantasy Chess", but I don't know about playing a D&D campaign with it..:raise:
It looks like something I'd have fun fooling with a few times, and then I'd quickly grow bored with it. But who knows? Maybe it's better than I think.
Looks like an online battlemap that's highly customisable and that has rolling and persistent character profiles integrated. That'd be pretty much what I'd want out of such a program.
Huh?
WHy should I want to play online?
The Fuck?
Wow, resolution is almost as good as Neverwinter Nights.
That was a fun game. When was it released again, 1999?
I'd be willing to sacrifice whiz-bang graphics for the ability to run it on an older computer.
Evenb if it WAS the best graphics EVAR.
Why?
Me too olde to get?
Quote from: SettembriniEvenb if it WAS the best graphics EVAR.
Why?
Me too olde to get?
I'm 35 and have no trouble "getting it."
What part (or parts) of the idea are causing your confusion?
It's probably for people who don't have groups in their area, or who want to play with their chums who have moved across their country.
Frex, if I get into law school, I'm probably going to have to move a few thousand kilometres from my current crew if I go to my first choice. That's a bit awkward for a tabletop game. As well, my group has a pretty distinctive style of play (lots of PvP, to point at only the most obvious) and I don't want to get stuck with some horse vagina new DM who wants to play core-only good-only D&D just because he's the only guy around with a game.
Quote from: PseudoephedrineIt's probably for people who don't have groups in their area, or who want to play with their chums who have moved across their country.
Frex, if I get into law school, I'm probably going to have to move a few thousand kilometres from my current crew if I go to my first choice. That's a bit awkward for a tabletop game. As well, my group has a pretty distinctive style of play (lots of PvP, to point at only the most obvious) and I don't want to get stuck with some horse vagina new DM who wants to play core-only good-only D&D just because he's the only guy around with a game.
Indeed, although I think one of principle attractions will be people testing new builds "in the field," as it were.
Quote from: DrewIndeed, although I think one of principle attractions will be people testing new builds "in the field," as it were.
That's another attraction.
If you like this, why not just play World of Warcraft on an RP server?
Quote from: StuartIf you like this, why not just play World of Warcraft on an RP server?
Because Insider is not a MMORPG. It's a utility for translating tabletop play into an online environment. It's designed to complement the rulebooks rather than be a game unto itself.
Have you watched the presentation clips in the other thread? The fourfold production model is explained quite clearly there.
It reminds me of 3D Email (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouR59Inxb8U).
Quote from: SettembriniEvenb if it WAS the best graphics EVAR.
Why?
Me too olde to get?
I'm 41, and I get it. Sometimes it's tough to get everyone in your group in the same physical space, or to get a group, period. It'd be awesome to be able to get my original group back together, but that's physically tough to do, what with us scattered across the continent. This gives the ability to do that - or at least it should, according to the description.
Quote from: StuartIf you like this, why not just play World of Warcraft on an RP server?
Like Drew said, this isn't meant to do the same thing as WoW. I'm really digging the implications of this the more I see of it. That says something, because I have never had the urge to play anything like WoW, but I'd love to be able to play D&D with people I know who are 3000 miles away.
I'm too technically inept for this kind of stuff myself and $9 a month? No thanks.
Incidentally, someone over on Enworld posted a screen capture of one of the webpages and it had a Dwarven 'Warlord' as one of the characters. 9th level apparently. Also included a Fighter, a Ranger and a Cleric, i believe.
Quote from: One Horse TownI'm too technically inept for this kind of stuff myself and $9 a month? No thanks.
The price is a concern of mine, also, but I'm sure I'm as technically (dis)inclined as you are, or even less so, and this looks pretty intuitive to me.
Quote from: One Horse TownIncidentally, someone over on Enworld posted a screen capture of one of the webpages and it had a Dwarven 'Warlord' as one of the characters. 9th level apparently. Also included a Fighter, a Ranger and a Cleric, i believe.
Did it include stat blocks?
If so, then a link may be in order. :)
Quote from: DrewDid it include stat blocks?
If so, then a link may be in order. :)
Sadly not. It was just some portraits of a person's characters. Incidentally, Fighters also get special abilties and feat trees depending on which weapon they use, so choice of weapon actually means something for a Fighter now. Hopefully, they are all balanced, although i notice that they say that the Longsword is the most versatile weapon choice. That was one of the best bits of Iron Heroes to me, a feat tree for some weapons. Seems Mr.Mearls has expanded this to include all weapons for 4e. Cool.
As for links, there are far too many threads about this in all kinds of places. Check out the 'What we KNow' threads on both ENworld and RPGnet.
Quote from: One Horse TownSadly not. It was just some portraits of a person's characters. Incidentally, Fighters also get special abilties and feat trees depending on which weapon they use, so choice of weapon actually means something for a Fighter now. Hopefully, they are all balanced, although i notice that they say that the Longsword is the most versatile weapon choice. That was one of the best bits of Iron Heroes to me, a feat tree for some weapons. Seems Mr.Mearls has expanded this to include all weapons for 4e. Cool.
Couldn't agree more. What we've heard so far seems to indicate a blend of IH, BO9S and SW SAGA, which is just about spot on as far as I'm concerned.
QuoteAs for links, there are far too many threads about this in all kinds of places. Check out the 'What we KNow' threads on both ENworld and RPGnet.
Yeah, I've read most of them. I was just hoping for something a little more concrete, despite Slavisek saying numerous times that the game is still very much in the design phase.
Thinking on it more it's likely we won't see a completed stat block until the previews are released next year. There seems to be an awful lot they haven't nailed down yet, so revealing anything beyond design intent would be preemptive to say the least.
Quote from: SettembriniHuh?
WHy should I want to play online?
The Fuck?
Well if your friends are in Missouri, Georgia, Central Pennsylvania, and you are stuck in in Northwest Pennsylvania, how else you are going to play tabletop?
Quote from: PseudoephedrineI'd be willing to sacrifice whiz-bang graphics for the ability to run it on an older computer.
FUCK YES.
By the way: that little game called WoW? It certainly doesn't have the best graphics out there. Neither did Diablo or Starcraft.
Quote from: StuartIf you like this, why not just play World of Warcraft on an RP server?
Sorry to sound a bit testy but I don't think people understand what this type of software is used for.
It is an outgrowth of virtual whiteboarding. Where a corporation, or a university is connected through the network/internet and what one person draws in one place appears in all the connected location and vice versa.
In the early 2000's a couple of people got the idea that this can be applied to tabletop role-playing. Why would they want to do this? Because gaming groups split up due to life circumstances. People still want to play together but the army or their company moved them halfway across the country.
So combine a whiteboard that emulates a battlemap, graphics for tokens/figures, and voice chat system then you got something that emulates the tabletop experience quite faithfully. It is NOT 100% but darn close.
The other use for that software is at a regular tabletop system and a digital projector. You point the projector at the table and use it to show battleboards. Other than being able to use graphics this takes the fog of war advantage that the internet programs have and applies to the tabletop.
What bothers me is the following question: will ALL players have to pay a monthly fee?
Quote from: estarWell if your friends are in Missouri, Georgia, Central Pennsylvania, and you are stuck in in Northwest Pennsylvania, how else you are going to play tabletop?
Sure. But this is for ultra-hardcore people. That is not actually something really making the DI or the 4th edition exciting.
Quote from: estarSorry to sound a bit testy but I don't think people understand what this type of software is used for.
...
So combine a whiteboard that emulates a battlemap, graphics for tokens/figures, and voice chat system then you got something that emulates the tabletop experience quite faithfully. It is NOT 100% but darn close.
I understand how it was developed, and how they intend people to use it. I'm just disagreeing on whether it really emulates the tabletop experience where it really matters. You can buy the videogame version of all sorts of boardgames and play them against people online (with voice chat if you like)... but it's just not the same. It's not about rules and mechanics.
I'm sure some people will use it and like it, and that's great (honestly). I don't think it will have a broad appeal though. It won't bring in WoW players, and it won't bring in non-gamers. It will appeal to some section of the current RPG players. Not sure how many, but certainly much less than the total number. Probably by quite a lot.
Does it run on a Mac?
I use Fantasy Grounds2 (purchased) and Maptool (freeware) to play and run online RPGs. I "get it".
If you aren't familiar with these programs, there are chat functions (where you can speak as your character or any NPC if you are the GM), dice rollers, maps, tokens, character sheets, combat/initiative trackers, searchable rules databases, and all kinds of neat features. A lot of people like using voice chat as well. It really emulates table-top gaming pretty well. With text chat for IC talk and voice chat for BSing and OOC stuff, the social aspect increases a bit.
There are two gaming groups where I live. The first one is a big official, not-for-profit club. There are quite a few people who annoy the heck out of me and so I don't run/play games there. I have a smaller group of actual friends I play with, but most only have time for a single bi-weekly game. I really want to start running a new campaign, so I am going to use VTTs to run it, as I can draw players in from all over the country, including various friends in other states who I haven't been able to play face to face with in a while.
If I had the choice, I'd play all of my games in person, face to face. Since some of my favorite gaming buddies live on the other side of the country, that's not always an option. For those times when I can't find a good local group, I can go online.
Regarding WotC's product, I'll be darned if I'm going to give them $9.95 a month for something I can already do with my purchased/freeware programs.
Quote from: StuartI understand how it was developed, and how they intend people to use it. I'm just disagreeing on whether it really emulates the tabletop experience where it really matters. You can buy the videogame version of all sorts of boardgames and play them against people online (with voice chat if you like)... but it's just not the same. It's not about rules and mechanics.
I don't get why you think Rules and mechanics matter. Having software support for rules helps but it not at the core of what makes these products useful. Computer wargames that emulate a boardgame are completely different. The closest thing to these type of programs are those like Aid-de-camp or cyberboard which enables support for play by email.
As for emulating the tabletop experience all I can say it does it 9/10th of the way. The missing element is the face to face interaction which is replaced by voice or if you are lucky webcam. But it not the same as being there with the person. There are advantages in terms of hiding the battleboard, and displaying information. Plus being able to privately chat (text) with a player. If you use text mode then you have a perfect record of your session which is useful.
Quote from: StuartI'm sure some people will use it and like it, and that's great (honestly). I don't think it will have a broad appeal though. It won't bring in WoW players, and it won't bring in non-gamers. It will appeal to some section of the current RPG players. Not sure how many, but certainly much less than the total number. Probably by quite a lot.
I think you are right but not for the reasons given. I think people being what they are will prefer being at a table with other people than over a internet like.
It will have the biggest impact in these three areas
1) People whose group scatter through life circumstance can continue playing
2) People who still live close but life circumstance preclude the time investment of driving over. (This mostly comes up when you have kids)
3) People who live in sparsely populated areas can have a bigger choice of gaming.
There will be a segment that will enjoy the advantages of internet play over the tabletop but again the appeal of social interaction will trump this for the larger market.
Quote from: SettembriniSure. But this is for ultra-hardcore people. That is not actually something really making the DI or the 4th edition exciting.
I agree that this will not make DI or 4th Edition exciting to most people.
However I disagree that this is for ultra-hardcore people. The Technology has developed to the point where it doesn't take a computer person to set it all up. It may be that DI simplifies this even further.
Note that I been doing this on a bi-weekly basis since March.
Rob Conley
Quote from: John MorrowDoes it run on a Mac?
They got version that run on a Mac. I believe Open RPG definitely does. You will have to check around for others.
Quote from: GoOrangeRegarding WotC's product, I'll be darned if I'm going to give them $9.95 a month for something I can already do with my purchased/freeware programs.
In their defense it all depends on the value they add. Certainly it going to be limited to D&D and/or SW Saga which means it will have zero appeal to other systems. But there is certainly room for improvement in the current batch of software (like hex support dammit).
Quote from: StuartI'm sure some people will use it and like it, and that's great (honestly). I don't think it will have a broad appeal though. It won't bring in WoW players, and it won't bring in non-gamers. It will appeal to some section of the current RPG players. Not sure how many, but certainly much less than the total number. Probably by quite a lot.
I think the broadest demographic will be gamers who enjoy the tactical components of play. If the overwhelming number of D&D threads I see here, there and everyehere are anything to go by then that's a substantial number of people indeed.
I also think it will appeal to more casual gamers. I'm by no means a hardcore D&D player, but if I knew an online game was available
right now, with graphical support and voice interaction then I'd click and play. I don't need to go anyhere or (presumably) do anything other than have my online character available for DM approval. Sweet. Game on.
Where I can see the system falling short of expectations is at the social level. How it manages IC and OOC actions and dialogue needs to be addressed, as does player screening. Hooking up with a bunch of shrieking 12-year-old Tourettes victims isn't my cup of tea, nor is a game that stresses combat only. I'd like to see how the game deals with visual representation when the battlemat isn't in use-- looking at a D&D screensaver when there's a lull in the action kind of defeats the object, in my opinion.
That said, I'm pretty excited by the prospect. To my knowldedge this the first time something like this has been attempted. There's bound to be some bugs and outright fuck ups in the early days. As the technology is refined and experience is gained it's only likely to improve, though.
Quote from: DrewI'd like to see how the game deals with visual representation when the battlemat isn't in use-- looking at a D&D screensaver when there's a lull in the action kind of defeats the object, in my opinion.
Current programs handle this by allowing the GM to show any arbitrary bitmap/graphic. For example in my session, I have not only "battlemats" but the regional map, the local city map, texts, pictures, etc, etc.
Fantasy Grounds has a demo with a preloaded module you can look at.
Do we know if the program has all the mechanics of gaming built in, or is it just a visual aid? i.e. Will we be able to input our character stats and skills and have the tasks resolved by on-screen rolls, or is that still manual?
Quote from: WerekoalaDo we know if the program has all the mechanics of gaming built in, or is it just a visual aid? i.e. Will we be able to input our character stats and skills and have the tasks resolved by on-screen rolls, or is that still manual?
The clip from the demo presentation showed an electronic dice roller.
Quote from: estarCurrent programs handle this by allowing the GM to show any arbitrary bitmap/graphic. For example in my session, I have not only "battlemats" but the regional map, the local city map, texts, pictures, etc, etc.
Fantasy Grounds has a demo with a preloaded module you can look at.
Cool.
Quote from: DrewThe clip from the demo presentation showed an electronic dice roller.
Yes, but my question was - is that ALL it does, or does the program know your skills and stats and such and resolve combat, for example, for you?
Quote from: WerekoalaDo we know if the program has all the mechanics of gaming built in, or is it just a visual aid? i.e. Will we be able to input our character stats and skills and have the tasks resolved by on-screen rolls, or is that still manual?
The current generation of Virtual Tabletop have a character sheet built in that has some automated support (like entering a number for a attribute will fill in the bonus). They have some sort of combat tracker that allows you to track initiative and damage. For damage some allow a dice roll result to be dragged into the hp box and be deducted.
None of the current generation resolves combat. While it is possible to program some type of combat resolver. I doubt anything will be done with that. Likely what we will see in the future is some type of action resolver. Like right click the figure, choose grapple, and then click on the target. A result dialog shows up. Even then it will probably be only for a few common actions.
The current generation has dice rollers that allow you do a variety of dice combinations. Some even make it look like you threw the dice. There is a weakness that none of the visual throwing method support throwing different types of die (like a d4 + d8, etc) 3d6 is fine, 15d10 is fine. 1d6-1 is fine. You generally have an chat command that can roll dice in any combination. The chat command is more flexible than the graphical roll.
The current generation Virtual Tabletop manages text notes, and graphics along with the battleboard.
The major thing to overcome starting out with Virtual Table-top is assembling all the graphics, tokens, and maps you want to use. This is no different than when you first started RPGs and had no minatures, props, or battlemats.
If you are a bare-bones DM who does a lot of verbal descriptions you will still need to some graphics prep as the only way to show anything visually is with a graphic. For example, I found I did a lot gesturing at the table. Of course when I pointed at something none of the other players could see my hand. So I found a pointing hand graphic and moved that with the mouse to indicate stuff.
In the end you will find that virtual table-top doesn't replace getting together. However it will extend your opportunities for gaming and allow you to overcome problems when people can't get together at the same location.
Quote from: WerekoalaYes, but my question was - is that ALL it does, or does the program know your skills and stats and such and resolve combat, for example, for you?
Sorry, I misread.
As far as I know character stats and computations will be handled electronically. In the clip they mention being able to store multiple versions of your character online, statted out at different levels.
The details are a little foggy at the moment, but it sounds as though they're aiming to manage most of the task resoloution stuff via the software. The DM sets a DC, the player hits "roll d20," and the outcome is determined. At least that's how it looks at the moment.
Quote from: estarIn the end you will find that virtual table-top doesn't replace getting together. However it will extend your opportunities for gaming and allow you to overcome problems when people can't get together at the same location.
Indeed.
I think this is where a lot of the paranoia is coming from. Some think that Wizard's are trying to replace the tabletop experience with an inferior electronic format. They're not. It's being presented as an alternative, nothing more.
Quote from: estarI don't get why you think Rules and mechanics matter.
I don't. :)
I'm saying that if I choose to sit down at a table and play a tabletop game, that's different than wanting to sit in front of the computer and play a game. It's a analogue / social thing.
Quote from: StuartI don't. :)
I'm saying that if I choose to sit down at a table and play a tabletop game, that's different than wanting to sit in front of the computer and play a game. It's a analogue / social thing.
This is not meant as a criticism. I think I am following you.
Most people use there computers as an entertainment device (games, dvd), information device (web sites) followed by some basic office type works (word processing, speadsheets) with a little communication (email, IM, forums)
However computers are LOT more flexible than this. One area most people haven't run into this because it been the province of high end corporate software. Only in recent years (3 to 4 years ago) has technology and software been developed to push these high-end feature down to where you and I can use them. In this case it is an application of whiteboard software and Voice over IP (VoIP) i.e phone over the internet.
I know it a little long winded, but it is important to understand that this type of software is NOT a game. (Now a lot of people are looking at me like have I have two heads).
This type of software is in the same class as your email reader, IM program, or this forum that we are typing on now. It allows communication to occur between multiple people. In this case to play a tabletop RPG instead of discussing the fourth quarter financial or the latest Ford V-8 Engine.
Using this software is very different than using a MMORPG or Obvlion or even Neverwinter Nights. Features of all three of these product could be useful for a virtual tabletop. But again the goal of a virtual tabletop is a means of communication not a game in of itself. Last if the developer wants he can orient the virtual table top to support one game really really well. By providing character sheets and automating repetitive tasks.
Again not trying to be critical of you. I will say that the video WoTC posted is confusing a lot of people who have not used virtual tabletop software. So your opinion is reasonable in that light.
Finally virtual table top software will supplement not replace people gathering together to play. Sometimes people are able to play but not get together in the same location. Virtual tabletop software overcomes this problem and thus gets more gamers well... gaming.
Why would WOTC develop this online-focused business model if they didn't want to turn the D&D player base into one that's centered on the Insider and the use of the virtual tabletop? There's nothing in this model to prevent the creation of persistent worlds, administered by WOTC--indeed, it seems ideal for the use of organized play such as the RPGA--and all of the convenience-creating elements such as the PC tools are things that, in the next few years, will be de facto required to fully participate in the hobby due to engineered changes in the hobby's culture. There's no point in creating this subscription-based model if there is nothing to compel its use (and thus paying the cost), so I'm looking for that hook that brings the compulsion.
Quote from: estarAgain not trying to be critical of you. I will say that the video WoTC posted is confusing a lot of people who have not used virtual tabletop software. So your opinion is reasonable in that light.
I'm an IT manager and faculty member at a University here in Canada. I'm very familiar with these tools. ;)
Bradford, the whole scheme is far more pedestrian. Some people love reading new rules options stuff on a weekly basis--it's compulsion enough for them. I'm not that kind of person, but aren't you?
That said, I think that will also be the *only* compulsion. A virtual RPGA will be even less popular than the actual RPGA. As for competing with WoW, forget it.
Ultimately though it'll not be a big deal. Wizards may lose some money here, but given those video presentations it doesn't appear they're investing too much of it to begin with.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityBradford, the whole scheme is far more pedestrian. Some people love reading new rules options stuff on a weekly basis--it's compulsion enough for them. I'm not that kind of person, but aren't you?
That said, I think that will also be the *only* compulsion. A virtual RPGA will be even less popular than the actual RPGA. As for competing with WoW, forget it.
Ultimately though it'll not be a big deal. Wizards may lose some money here, but given those video presentations it doesn't appear they're investing too much of it to begin with.
I have to disagree. Internet use is rising every year. This means existing markets expand and more niches appear.
I think it effect will be similar to ebay has on the auction world. It didn't replace real world auctions but instead greatly expanded the use of auctions for people. Why because it offer an alternative form of communication for people wanting to sell. And it has its own advantages (along with disadvantages).
The same situation with virtual tabletop gaming. Wizard is going to use the tools in a variety of ways to increase the number of gamer playing games. This will include the service itself and organized play using the service. However I would be surprised to see them abandon all traditional programs. However as the cancellation of Dragon and Dungeon shows they may try it. Personally I don't think that they will reach the same numbers with their ezines as they did with the print magazines. However we are getting close to the tipping point where ezines make more sense than paper.
As for competing with WoW, I somewhat disagree. Tabletop RPGs will always have the disadvantage that it require X people to be together at the same time (virtual or not). MMORPGs do support group play but it is not a requirement. I predict they will try to overcome this by making a living world a centerpiece so that pick up games become very easy to do. The same as if your guild doesn't show up in WoW you could join and ad-hoc group.
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerWhy would WOTC develop this online-focused business model if they didn't want to turn the D&D player base into one that's centered on the Insider and the use of the virtual tabletop?
They believe it will expand the market. Conversion is not the primary goal. Remember, jokes aside, the point of new editions of RPGs are to attract NEW gamers. Not to milk existing gamers out of their money. (Although it may seem like it).
Quote from: estarThey believe it will expand the market. Conversion is not the primary goal. Remember, jokes aside, the point of new editions of RPGs are to attract NEW gamers. Not to milk existing gamers out of their money. (Although it may seem like it).
If that were true, you'd offer the online stuff for free to attract new people to the hobby. Hey, look at this fun, free tool to build a "character" -- look here, you can print it out and take it to your friends house and play D&D! Locked behind a subscription door, you'll only get the die-hard players accessing those tools, so they're no use in attracting new players. These tools are part of the DNDInsider... not for new players. They're described as the "bonus disc" on a 2-DVD set.
Quote from: Pierce InverarityBradford, the whole scheme is far more pedestrian. Some people love reading new rules options stuff on a weekly basis--it's compulsion enough for them. I'm not that kind of person, but aren't you?
You don't sell something that you don't want the buyer to use, and you don't spend a lot of time on the selling if you don't want it used a lot. It's known that D&D is in competition with WOW, and has been since the latter went live. The MMORPG model does, as demonstrated by its incredible success, present the core D&D gameplay model and experience better for the majority of folks than the tabletop model does in large part because it's far easier to keep up with it and because it's far easier to just play the damned game whenever you want. WOTC's management and leadership would be utterly retarded to not see this and act accordingly.
You see, we're not the primary audience for 4.0. The primary audience is that group of males between the ages of 15-23, boys and young men comfortable with gaming primarily as an online experience who are there to play the game first and foremost. A secondary concern is the group of adults, aged 30-50, who are mostly lapsed due to logistical issues (i.e. not being able to get in one place to play due to time constraints). In both respects, WOTC's online component for 4.0 is meant to change the game's culture towards a central model focused on the Insider and its digital components. It's incremental in nature, starting with something innocuous like providing a virtual tabletop and associated tools to facilitate its use. Conveniently, the online component is also very friendly to fast rules updates--patching--and thus will become the primary means for doing so. (Not that different than the current regime, but openly acknowledged for what it is.)
As more and more updates, fixes and new content filters through the online component (the print versions will be delayed greatly by comparison, like being on the outer edge of a shockwave) the culture will increasingly shift to using that as the primary source for all things D&D. Once that shift happens, it's a short step from there to centralizing the majority of the game's use to the virtual tabletop; they're already attempting (success is another matter) to make it as convenient and user-friendly as possible to run games online, making the need (and hassle) of finding local players no longer an issue- just go online and open your game there. The GMs will go for it because they have more real control over their game and group than in meatspace, and players will go for it because they have far greater odds of playing with folks who play like they do. Once this shift in usage occurs, it's just another small step to move to promotion of a persistent world through an organized play model- and that's a MMORPG.
Incrementalism is the plan here. Just like all the other social engineering stuff that's gone down over the last few generations, it's done in small steps that never seem that bad by themselves but aggregate into something other than what was sold originally. WOTC wants that MMORPG action, and this is their latest attempt to get some of it. It doesn't matter if the current adults stick around as long as they can get the current high school and undergraduate crowd to buy into it. Look at the big picture; they aren't doing this to keep a game in the form that isn't guaranteed to maximize profits anymore.
Quote from: StuartIf that were true, you'd offer the online stuff for free to attract new people to the hobby. Hey, look at this fun, free tool to build a "character" -- look here, you can print it out and take it to your friends house and play D&D! Locked behind a subscription door, you'll only get the die-hard players accessing those tools, so they're no use in attracting new players. These tools are part of the DNDInsider... not for new players. They're described as the "bonus disc" on a 2-DVD set.
Maybe you are right. I disagree. I don't think the software would be effective as a loss-leader for people to "try out" the game. I think a demo version using fixed content (characters and modules) will be there to sell the software, DI, and 4th edition.
However the full version will have probably have some type of organized play as a centerpiece. WoTC will be using part of the $9.95 fee to support this. That will be a new market they believe that will attract customers. But I don't think the product will limited to supporting just the organized play.
We will see how it works out over the various methods used by the current generation.
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerYou don't sell something that you don't want the buyer to use, and you don't spend a lot of time on the selling if you don't want it used a lot. It's known that D&D is in competition with WOW, and has been since the latter went live. The MMORPG model does, as demonstrated by its incredible success, present the core D&D gameplay model and experience better for the majority of folks than the tabletop model does in large part because it's far easier to keep up with it and because it's far easier to just play the damned game whenever you want. WOTC's management and leadership would be utterly retarded to not see this and act accordingly.
I agreed with you for the most part. However they are not trying to make D&D the MMORPG incrementally or otherwise. They are using elements of MMORPG to both cover the weaknesses of tabletop RPGs and play to the strengths of table-top RPGs. It will be something different. Hopefully something that will expand the market. One thing they still have the burden of the fact that to play a group of people have to be together at the same time, with a lot riding on the quality of the DM. But if they have a large enough base of players gathering to play then this issue could be overcome.
I imagine it would be something like this.
You log on
You browse for games that are being organized.
About half are custom games or campaign run by an individual DM. They may be private or looking for anybody to join. There will be notes on what is required to join that group i.e. (valid characters, MI restrictions, etc)
If you are DM then you create a game and set your time and rules.
The other half is with the Living D&D campaign.
If you are a player you sort by module and level and look for any game with an open slot. The software retrieves one of your character that maintain in the living database and you go play.
If you are a DM then you go and pick a module from a list that you want to run. You then setup a time and wait. Likely first time DMs will only be able to run low level modules and will have some type of peer review system in order to advance to running higher level modules. Or DMs for Living D&D have to apply and be approved by WoTC staff. Who knows and i bet whatever system is done will be immediate flame bait in the forums.
it sounds neat, and i like the idea of being able to play again with my undergrad buddies. but it looks like (to me, anyway) that the "insider" model will just bring about a digital divide:
-those who just play 4E core (and any paper supplements)
-those who play 4E with the latest "patches"
i'll have to look into those other options, tho--my college buds and i played traveller. . . .
this is quite an exciting metamorphosis, tho
Quote from: estarMaybe you are right. I disagree. I don't think the software would be effective as a loss-leader for people to "try out" the game. I think a demo version using fixed content (characters and modules) will be there to sell the software, DI, and 4th edition.
I think they should take it further than this, and make the entire digital equivalent of the 4th Ed SRD available to play for free online. And then sell additional content. Subscriptions should be to the e-Living Greyhawk, and so on and so forth.
Trying to sell it at base level seems to me to be mssing a very fundamental part of how the internet works today. I'll be very surprised if they don't end up adopting the above model by first-quarter 2010.
- Q
I'd pay a one-time fee to download the digital whiteboard software, but I don't know how I'd feel about having an outstanding charge for US$10 for the rest of my gaming life just to use it. Maybe if you could buy a "core only" version with some simple features, and then to get the upgrades etc. you had to subscribe or buy content add-ons. That wouldn't be too bad.
I have a feeling that, there will be some seriously cuted free-version of the software for the newbies to try (say only up to level 3 and only save one character at a time and so on). Want more? Pay!
Same goes for the rest of the insider issue. Some parts free... to bring attention, the most of the meat payed. I must admit, this model might work. And it might work well, though not for me. Cause I will have a serious issue how to pay witout credit card od bank account with $. Unless they will make some pre-paid cards to sell in FLGS I am out already.
I think this is a neat idea, but not one I'm gonna jump on soon; I like having friends over.
Quote from: estarThe current generation of Virtual Tabletop have a character sheet built in that has some automated support (like entering a number for a attribute will fill in the bonus). They have some sort of combat tracker that allows you to track initiative and damage. For damage some allow a dice roll result to be dragged into the hp box and be deducted.
None of the current generation resolves combat. While it is possible to program some type of combat resolver. I doubt anything will be done with that. Likely what we will see in the future is some type of action resolver. Like right click the figure, choose grapple, and then click on the target. A result dialog shows up. Even then it will probably be only for a few common actions.
The current generation has dice rollers that allow you do a variety of dice combinations. Some even make it look like you threw the dice. There is a weakness that none of the visual throwing method support throwing different types of die (like a d4 + d8, etc) 3d6 is fine, 15d10 is fine. 1d6-1 is fine. You generally have an chat command that can roll dice in any combination. The chat command is more flexible than the graphical roll.
The current generation Virtual Tabletop manages text notes, and graphics along with the battleboard.
The major thing to overcome starting out with Virtual Table-top is assembling all the graphics, tokens, and maps you want to use. This is no different than when you first started RPGs and had no minatures, props, or battlemats.
If you are a bare-bones DM who does a lot of verbal descriptions you will still need to some graphics prep as the only way to show anything visually is with a graphic. For example, I found I did a lot gesturing at the table. Of course when I pointed at something none of the other players could see my hand. So I found a pointing hand graphic and moved that with the mouse to indicate stuff.
In the end you will find that virtual table-top doesn't replace getting together. However it will extend your opportunities for gaming and allow you to overcome problems when people can't get together at the same location.
Interesting.
So in other words it doesn't really replace what you do as a GM in terms of calculating combat stats and all that. It really is kind of like a fancy 3-D mapping program that you can share in-game movement of characters with online, and show a dice roller, with some limited character sheet interaction.
If this is the case then I wonder how useful it will be in the real world. I think it may fall between the cracks of two desirable goals: 1) Real Online GMing, 2) Truly useful At-Home-Around-The-Table-With-My-Friends GMing Support.
What might muck it up for point 2 is actually the graphics. Traditionally the GM (me) sits with a map that the Players don't see. They map as they go on a separate piece of paper, just like they would if they were exploring an unknown dungeon complex. That works for us. But with this, the graphics are soooo frikking cool the temptation is going to be for the Players to crowd around the screen to watch their characters float to the next square, etc. That means I'm going to have a hard time GMing with this if I want to keep secrets. Oh, well then there is the Fog-Of-War type option, but how do I use that when I have my whole group crowding around the screen? Am I the GM the only one who is supposed to see the screen? No, I don't think so. Therefore I'm not sure what the At-Home-Group will wind up doing with this... ideas?
For point 1, this would be useful if it did all of the math and calculations for combat etc. Then I could use it to run Games Online. Otherwise, I'm not sure how useful it will be. I'm still, I think, sitting at home crunching numbers with my rules books and then figuring out what dice should be rolled. Nice to have the online screen dice roller, but the lag-time while I do those calcs, acceptable at home with my friends, might be a bit too much for an online GMing experience...? Not sure.
Ok what am I missing?
Thanks!
- Mark
If the online software doesn't do the calculations now, that will be implemented in a future patch- and it will come due to popular demand for greater ease of use and convenience.
Quote from: VBWyrdeOk what am I missing?
You are missing the fact, that you can right know buy the dungeon tiles and mins, which are exactly like in the simulation, just real. Yeah real. You can build the exactly the same you see.
The e-version is for playing online. Period.
Quote from: estarThe current generation has dice rollers that allow you do a variety of dice combinations. Some even make it look like you threw the dice. There is a weakness that none of the visual throwing method support throwing different types of die (like a d4 + d8, etc) 3d6 is fine, 15d10 is fine. 1d6-1 is fine. You generally have an chat command that can roll dice in any combination. The chat command is more flexible than the graphical roll.
I could have sworn Fantasy Grounds allows this. Shift click to add dice you your hand or something. Long time since I've used it however.
Quote from: BagpussI could have sworn Fantasy Grounds allows this. Shift click to add dice you your hand or something. Long time since I've used it however.
It works for 3d6, or 2d6, or 2d10, or heck the ultimate 20d20. But not for d4 + d8 or any different combo. for those you use a slash command.
Quote from: VBWyrdeInteresting.
So in other words it doesn't really replace what you do as a GM in terms of calculating combat stats and all that. It really is kind of like a fancy 3-D mapping program that you can share in-game movement of characters with online, and show a dice roller, with some limited character sheet interaction.
The 3-D will be new. The current generation, like fantasy grounds, works with bitmap graphics usually jpgs and pngs. One sophisticated feature of the current generation is the ability to do the scaling of tokens different than the map itself.
Quote from: VBWyrdeInteresting.
If this is the case then I wonder how useful it will be in the real world. I think it may fall between the cracks of two desirable goals: 1) Real Online GMing, 2) Truly useful At-Home-Around-The-Table-With-My-Friends GMing Support.
#2) The only use for a regular table-tap if you can project the map with a digital projector onto your table (or maybe your wall.)
#1) I am not sure what you mean by real on-line GMing but if you are talking about NWN then the current generation of virtual tabletops are at least two orders of magnitude easier to prepare for. Also you have all the control of a GM at a regular table as opposed to whatever command that NWN gives you or you can program in.
Quote from: VBWyrdeTherefore I'm not sure what the At-Home-Group will wind up doing with this... ideas?
Quote from: VBWyrdeCheap digital projector. That pretty much it for the at home crowd. The on-line version works by implementing fog of war on the client with the GM being able to see the map. For the GM you still see the fog of war but it is transparent.
See this
http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tutorials/tabletopprojection/
One thing that might be coming in the next decade is a tabletop computer. A computer whose screen is the top of a table. There is a couple of demos of this on the internet.
Quote from: VBWyrdeFor point 1, this would be useful if it did all of the math and calculations for combat etc. Then I could use it to run Games Online. Otherwise, I'm not sure how useful it will be. I'm still, I think, sitting at home crunching numbers with my rules books and then figuring out what dice should be rolled. Nice to have the online screen dice roller, but the lag-time while I do those calcs, acceptable at home with my friends, might be a bit too much for an online GMing experience...? Not sure.
Ok what am I missing?
It for bringing together groups that are not able to get together in the same location. A good example would be your college gaming group graduating and splitting up. Now with virtual table tops you can still do table-top together.
My own groups consist of a guy in my own town, Meadville, who has time issues because of his job, two guys in pittsburgh, and a guy in Kansas City. Fantasy Grounds allow me to resume our weekly game which has been interrupted for five years.
If they all still lived here, I doubt we would be using it.
This is probably the bit about 4e that sounds really good to me. My last game, a Classic Traveller game that ran from November '06 to March of this year, was run using voice chat and webcams (using a really slick professional conferencing package that one of my players works on) with a wiki to store campaign notes and keep our campaign journal. My old gaming buddies and I are widely separated, and while the experience wasn't like having us all around the table sharing pizza and chucking dice at one another, it was the next best thing. Even if I'm not jumping on the 4e wagon, I gotta applaud Wizards for taking an active hand in promoting play-by-web.
Quote from: estarOne thing that might be coming in the next decade is a tabletop computer. A computer whose screen is the top of a table. There is a couple of demos of this on the internet.
I think it's a microsoft project - and it looks cool. And the first thing I thought of when I saw the video demo was - gaming table.
Quote from: WerekoalaDo we know if the program has all the mechanics of gaming built in, or is it just a visual aid? i.e. Will we be able to input our character stats and skills and have the tasks resolved by on-screen rolls, or is that still manual?
No, and there is a very good reason for it: actual computer games. Agreements with software publishers will probably restrict WoTC from including anything that automatically resolves mechanics. For this same reason, Fantasy Grounds doesn't do it either. You can have a dice roller; character creation; electronic versions of rules; pretty much everything up to computer-aided resolution (at least for now, until the line between RPG and CRPG begins to blur more).
Quote from: James J SkachI think it's a microsoft project - and it looks cool. And the first thing I thought of when I saw the video demo was - gaming table.
One day your computer will be a big ass table! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZrr7AZ9nCY)
"Instead of using one of today's more popular compact devices to get directions to where you're going, why not use a device the size of a small car to do the same job." :D
Quote from: WilNo, and there is a very good reason for it: actual computer games. Agreements with software publishers will probably restrict WoTC from including anything that automatically resolves mechanics. For this same reason, Fantasy Grounds doesn't do it either. You can have a dice roller; character creation; electronic versions of rules; pretty much everything up to computer-aided resolution (at least for now, until the line between RPG and CRPG begins to blur more).
As it is, I can see Atari being rather peeved about this announcement, given that they just slapped down a big chunk of cash in spite of serious financial losses, in order to have the CRPG rights for D&D until 2012.
Given that NWN is one of the cornerstones of their entire game lineup, specifically because of the multiplayer and the modability, I can see a lot of execs over at Atari screeching bloody murder, unless they knew about it before hand.
Quote from: estarThere is a weakness that none of the visual throwing method support throwing different types of die (like a d4 + d8, etc)
Battlegrounds: RPG Edition (http://www.battlegroundsgames.com/) does. You can mix and match different dice types and/or dice colors, and optionally assign a text label to the secondary die.
Click for sample pic (http://www.battlegroundsgames.com/forums/viewtopic.php?mode=attach&id=97)
It also does other neat and useful things, such as:
• automatically looks up a die roll result on a table
• informs you of critical hits or misses
• roll vs. a target number (it tells you how much you succeeded or failed by)
• evaluates each die for success or failure
• handles open-ended rolls
• sorts the die results in ascending or descending order
• optional: plays sound effects of the dice rolling and hitting the table
...and a lot more.
Quote from: estarIt for bringing together groups that are not able to get together in the same location. A good example would be your college gaming group graduating and splitting up. Now with virtual table tops you can still do table-top together.
My own groups consist of a guy in my own town, Meadville, who has time issues because of his job, two guys in pittsburgh, and a guy in Kansas City. Fantasy Grounds allow me to resume our weekly game which has been interrupted for five years.
If they all still lived here, I doubt we would be using it.
Somehow I just don't see a big call for this in that case. Frankly, it is just not robust enough to suit my purposes if it doesn't do all the calculations for me. In fact, the lag time while I figure out the dice and calcs and all that for the guy on the other side of the internet would be, if it were me, totally prohibitive. I'd get bored pretty fast sitting there waiting for each next move. At least at the at-home round-the-table game I can quietly chit chat with my pals. I just don't see this being useful, other than as maybe pretty eye-candy. And even that would have appeal for a very limited duration. Unless, again, I happen to be missing "the big picture".
I'd rather just never play RPGs again than do it over a computer.
I cannot see the appeal at all. If I wanted to play a straight dungeon crawl game with strangers, I would just play WoW or D&D online or whatever. If I want to do it with friends, it will be a nightmare to coordinate everyone together to get on at the same time and I may as well just be playing face to face or not at all.
Playing a RPG together over a computer makes about as much sense to me as having a "movie night" where you and your friends each get a copy of a DVD, and all watch the movie at the same time but in your separate homes while text messaging each other.
Quote from: jgantsI'd rather just never play RPGs again than do it over a computer.
I cannot see the appeal at all. If I wanted to play a straight dungeon crawl game with strangers, I would just play WoW or D&D online or whatever. If I want to do it with friends, it will be a nightmare to coordinate everyone together to get on at the same time and I may as well just be playing face to face or not at all.
Playing a RPG together over a computer makes about as much sense to me as having a "movie night" where you and your friends each get a copy of a DVD, and all watch the movie at the same time but in your separate homes while text messaging each other.
Agreed. My guess is that The Planners didn't think this though very well and were seduced by the vast range of possibilities that computer technology + the internet provide. This is a very common problem in software development, and the disaterous effect is usually directly proportional to the Pointy Haired Boss Factor. I'm guessing that this project in particular is being governed by two or more PHB with conflicting "visions", and one or two hapless programmers who wish they had chosen a different career path, or will when it turns out that Precious Project earns them less than stellar reviews in the Real World. Tis but a guess, but given the fact that what it is that they are building is woefully inadequate for anything other than the extremely rare cases where friends want to reunite their RPG games online - I think it's a good guess at that.
There is a use for computers in helping the GM run RPGs however. But in this case the poor-thinkers went the opposite direction. I suppose they had their reasons, but ... it's a pity nonetheless. :rolleyes:
Quote from: jgantsI cannot see the appeal at all. If I wanted to play a straight dungeon crawl game with strangers, I would just play WoW or D&D online or whatever. If I want to do it with friends, it will be a nightmare to coordinate everyone together to get on at the same time and I may as well just be playing face to face or not at all.
Why does distance change whether you can get 5 people to have free time that overlaps? I could see it if you're gaming across the world, but just across the country shouldn't be a problem.
Quote from: James McMurrayWhy does distance change whether you can get 5 people to have free time that overlaps? I could see it if you're gaming across the world, but just across the country shouldn't be a problem.
People might hire a babysitter so they can go to a game night.
I can't imagine very many people would hire a babysitter so they can sit in front of their computer.
:)
Quote from: James McMurrayWhy does distance change whether you can get 5 people to have free time that overlaps? I could see it if you're gaming across the world, but just across the country shouldn't be a problem.
Well, my feeling about it is that it's just not something most gamers would really want to do anyway - sit at home alone in front of a computer waiting inbetween each move so the GM can do all the calcs and get to each player and then it's your turn and you do something ... and then wait again. Not compared to WoW. If my GM suggested it I'd just be like - um... no.
Could be. Then again, my impression from boards and gaming groups I've been in is that "sitting waiting for the GM to do the calcs" rarely happens. Table chatter is constant, and actual physical contact rare. Apart from being able to see the person you're gaming with, I don't see much difference between an online battlemat and one on the table. And webcams can alleviate the visual differences.
Quote from: James McMurrayWhy does distance change whether you can get 5 people to have free time that overlaps? I could see it if you're gaming across the world, but just across the country shouldn't be a problem.
I've found the time difference from time zones can be quite difficult just for trying to call one person.
Example #1, me calling my dad. My dad lives in the Pacific time zone. And works swing shift. There's a very small window of time I can call between when he gets up and when he goes to work, and it is usually the time of day (early afternoon) when I am the busiest.
Example #2, having a meeting with my boss. My boss is in one of the AZ offices. Thus, there is a 2 hour difference during daylight savings time. Once you factor in the different times for arriving/leaving work and lunch hours, that takes pretty much half of the working day away for scheduling meetings. Now that daylight savings time has ended, that extra hour has actually really helped.
The point here being, sometimes an hour or two difference is huge for coordinating schedules unless people can be flexible.
Quote from: James McMurrayCould be. Then again, my impression from boards and gaming groups I've been in is that "sitting waiting for the GM to do the calcs" rarely happens. Table chatter is constant, and actual physical contact rare. Apart from being able to see the person you're gaming with, I don't see much difference between an online battlemat and one on the table. And webcams can alleviate the visual differences.
Good point, I guess. I still have to wonder though if this will really get much play in the Real World. I just can't really see it myself. But time will tell, of course. Eventually, if civilization doesn't fall to pieces on us, there will be something like this I guess, and it will probably be pretty damn good. But what I'm envisioning includes GM Calcs as part of the computer's job. From what I read here, however, the hang up is in the business model, and licensing issues with RPG publishers. I'm not quite understanding that, but that's my take so far. If so, then that's really just too damn bad.
Here's my personal review and predictions after watching the video:
- If you want to place a non-orthogonal wall (i.e. southeast, northwest, east-by-northeast) or corridor, you're fucked.
- If you want to place a bending corridor, a circular dome or a large semi-circular room, you're fucked.
- If you want rough-walled irregular caves, you're fucked.
- If you want to use a homebrew monster that doesn't happen to look like one of the stock creatures, you're fucked.
(Because let's face it, if the program supported these features, they'd be showing them off like crazy.)
- By the end of your third session with the program, you'll be hating the dice roller. The whole point of computers is to get things done quicker than would be possible manually. These nifty animated rolls are exactly as slow if not slower than real-life dice.
Quote from: PremierThese nifty animated rolls are exactly as slow if not slower than real-life dice.
That's one of those things that you just know some marketing guy wanted added because it "looks cool". I'm sure the developers (both game and software) were rolling their heads over that one.
I once had a boss try to get me to modify our data entry program to incorporate an animated "swirling" effect every time a user cycled to a new page because the people buying the software (bosses) loved that kind of thing. I successfully argued against it because it would be a huge pain for the people who actually had to use the program all day every day.
Quote from: James McMurrayApart from being able to see the person you're gaming with, I don't see much difference between an online battlemat and one on the table. And webcams can alleviate the visual differences.
I can't spill bongwater all over your carpet across a webcam. Nor can I raid your fridge or go through your stuff while you're in the bathroom. I won't even have an opportunity to creep out your wife. Where's the fun man, where's the fun?
Quote from: AosI can't spill bongwater all over your carpet across a webcam. Nor can I raid your fridge or go through your stuff while you're in the bathroom. I won't even have an opportunity to creep out your wife. Where's the fun man, where's the fun?
The fun would come in being invited back instead of kicked out in 15 minutes. :)
Re the die roller: I'm guessing that either the first release or the first patch will have an option somewhere with a check box to turn off the animation. If not, I imagine at least 80% of the people using it will go away.
Quote from: Premier- If you want to place a non-orthogonal wall (i.e. southeast, northwest, east-by-northeast) or corridor, you're fucked.
- If you want to place a bending corridor, a circular dome or a large semi-circular room, you're fucked.
- If you want rough-walled irregular caves, you're fucked.
I imagine that it is capable of all of the above for the simple reason that WotC have already announced that the mapping programme will allow GMs to use tiles from their terrain sets, and all of those features are supported by existing, published terrain.
Quote from: jgantsPlaying a RPG together over a computer makes about as much sense to me as having a "movie night" where you and your friends each get a copy of a DVD, and all watch the movie at the same time but in your separate homes while text messaging each other.
True. And while I tend to agree, other folk's circumstances and tastes differ.
We gamed with a good friend for years, then he moved to Florida. We still very much wanted to game with him, so we started arranging it so he could play with us via speakerphone. Unfortunately, we were never able to get a schedule organized.
So while I think it's definitely suboptimal, shrug. For some, it might be something they'd want to look into.
Also, some of my face-to-face group play together in play-by-post games. I could see us creating online games to supplement our face-to-face experiences.
Seanchai