I'm seeing this story being posted everywhere else. What does everyone here think of it?
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/y3mw5b/how-tabletop-rpgs-are-being-reclaimed-from-bigots-and-jerks
That implies (or, perhaps, outright states) that RPGs were, as a whole, previously a field claimed as owned/run/created by bigots. I see that as a false start at best.
This is last weeks news, right?
In any case I agree with Evil Hat, if you dont like their politics then dont buy their products.
Quote from: Shasarak;1120557This is last weeks news, right?
In any case I agree with Evil Hat, if you dont like their politics then dont buy their products.
Greetings!
Right, my friend. But what makes Evil Hat such an obnoxious target for wrath as well as concern, is their deeper philosophy and desire and efforts to spread their fucked up propaganda, and to cultivate their fucking stupidity and hate amongst other gamers, as well as writers, game developers, and companies. You know what I'm saying? We need to call them the fuck out, and blast them, and resist them in every way. It is not enough to remain silent, and just not buy their fucking games while they seek to cultivate their hate and stupid ideology.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK;1120559Greetings!
Right, my friend. But what makes Evil Hat such an obnoxious target for wrath as well as concern, is their deeper philosophy and desire and efforts to spread their fucked up propaganda, and to cultivate their fucking stupidity and hate amongst other gamers, as well as writers, game developers, and companies. You know what I'm saying? We need to call them the fuck out, and blast them, and resist them in every way. It is not enough to remain silent, and just not buy their fucking games while they seek to cultivate their hate and stupid ideology.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
They literally call themselves EVIL HAT! They hide in plain sight; how much more can you call them out?
The article title is clearly clickbait. I'm also put off by not naming who was quoted (instead just naming them as "Evil Hat"), and not having any quotes or discussion from opposing points of view.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1120561They literally call themselves EVIL HAT! They hide in plain sight; how much more can you call them out?
I don't think that's convincing to anyone except the already converted. A lot of polarizing talk is this way. To counter the Vice article, presumably the approach would be a similar article with dialog for those on the opposing side.
This article reminds me of when I see articles on the ABC or in the Guardian or something about some older people or women working out in a gym and empowering themselves... how do I get that free advertising for my gym?
How did Evil Hat get Vice to advertise them for free?
5e has brought in a diverse pop of new players. And I view this as a reaction to real world events. Seeing frat boys with tiki torches spouting anti semitic slogans in the news does that. So I understand the need to have the game table be a refuge from the outside world.
Quote from: SHARK;1120559Greetings!
Right, my friend. But what makes Evil Hat such an obnoxious target for wrath as well as concern, is their deeper philosophy and desire and efforts to spread their fucked up propaganda, and to cultivate their fucking stupidity and hate amongst other gamers, as well as writers, game developers, and companies. You know what I'm saying? We need to call them the fuck out, and blast them, and resist them in every way. It is not enough to remain silent, and just not buy their fucking games while they seek to cultivate their hate and stupid ideology.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
But then you risk giving them more attention. I saw there was a push on Twitter to cancel RPGPundit and all that happened was that he got more followers.
So maybe just drop them into the memory hole with other such things like Highlander sequels and 4th edition DnD.
Quote from: Shasarak;1120576But then you risk giving them more attention. I saw there was a push on Twitter to cancel RPGPundit and all that happened was that he got more followers.
So maybe just drop them into the memory hole with other such things like Highlander sequels and 4th edition DnD.
Greetings!
Ahh, so true, huh my friend? The SJW's tried to crush Pundit like a fucking cockroach, and instead, he gets *MORE* followers, and grows *STRONGER!* *laughing* I fucking love it!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: TNMalt;11205745e has brought in a diverse pop of new players. And I view this as a reaction to real world events. Seeing frat boys with tiki torches spouting anti semitic slogans in the news does that. So I understand the need to have the game table be a refuge from the outside world.
You are a nutter.
Quote from: MonkeyMan23;1120548I'm seeing this story being posted everywhere else. What does everyone here think of it?
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/y3mw5b/how-tabletop-rpgs-are-being-reclaimed-from-bigots-and-jerks
Quote from: TNMalt;11205745e has brought in a diverse pop of new players. And I view this as a reaction to real world events. Seeing frat boys with tiki torches spouting anti semitic slogans in the news does that. So I understand the need to have the game table be a refuge from the outside world.
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Quote from: S'mon;1120588You are a nutter.
Greetings!
Damn straight, my friend! Just amazing, isn't it? What the fuck does "real world events" and "frat boys with tiki torches spouting anti semitic slogans" have fuck all to do with playing Dungeons and Dragons? A refuge from the outside world? I read the Vice article, interviewing Evil Hat, and it is like, since when did gamers become these frail, whiny, mentally dysfunctional basketcases? All of this handwringing, desperate, mommy-concern over incest, racism, rape, and colonialism and god knows what the fuck else?
It's my understanding that the game Candyland doesn't have any of that. These kind of sobbing nutters can take their sweet, Disney happy rated G games and snivel together in a corner. It just boggles me how we have been playing amazing fun games with lots of diverse fucking people for *decades*--but now there's these whiny bitch snowflakes that are trying to twist our hobby into something horrible and pathetic, all in some sick crusade to fight against a game that never was.
Our hobby has always had diverse minorities in it, as well as women. Going way the fuck back, to 1978 and beyond. And always we have had war, plunder, racism, hatred and slaughter *in the game*, and constant fun together, as players. The only people bringing in "the real world" and destroying the fucking fun refuge is the SJW's. You know what I'm saying, S'mon?
Geesus. I need to smoke my pipe now. And have a glass of good whiskey!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
nu-Legacy media throwing red meat click bait to stay relevant. :rolleyes: A cursory observation of rpgs' past shows how vapid this breathless salacious fantasy is. Just ignore these pathetic mewlings. :)
Quote from: Opaopajr;1120597nu-Legacy media throwing red meat click bait to stay relevant. :rolleyes: A cursory observation of rpgs' past shows how vapid this breathless salacious fantasy is. Just ignore these pathetic mewlings. :)
Just sad this is coming from
Vice. Over the last decade they have actually become relevant by posting actual news stories about what is going on with real people. Now they are tossing their credibility for a bunch of whingers? ...really???
Eh, Vice had only a brief year or so of solid and interesting reporting. Then they chased that ad copy decorum, political goodrightthink, soon after. The blogpocalypse and now nu-Media implosion seem to point to a cyclicality of co-opted alternative voices. Youtube/Twitter days are similarly numbered in the cycle. :)
Better to roll dice with fun people who bring good snacks. Like dehydrated kale crisps with red yeast (omg, it tastes like cheese! :eek: :rolleyes:). Pass the cacao nibs... :cool:
Quote from: TNMalt;11205745e has brought in a diverse pop of new players. And I view this as a reaction to real world events. Seeing frat boys with tiki torches spouting anti semitic slogans in the news does that. So I understand the need to have the game table be a refuge from the outside world.
Because before 5e it was all white straight males (puagh!) right? Even idiots like Tanahesi Coates say they grew up playing D&D. But yeah there were all whites before the woke brigade got it's dirty paws in the hobby.
Vayanse a la mierda con esa narrativa.
This has to be my favorite post in the related twitter thread:
QuoteSo brave.
I mean, some people would say real bravery would be to not use his IP to line your own pockets... but not me. Hypocrisy is the real bravery.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1120610But yeah there were all whites before the woke brigade got it's dirty paws in the hobby.
I know a number of gamers who are going to be surprised when I tell them that they've been white all this time!
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1120630I know a number of gamers who are going to be surprised when I tell them that they've been white all this time!
Or even male! I have no idea how we managed to play with a female Latina at my table in the 90's. There were no Woke to show us the way back then!
BTW I like how the article says Stoicism is Fascist. My 85 year old mother dying of pancreatic cancer must be Literally Hitler.
Quote from: MonkeyMan23;1120548I'm seeing this story being posted everywhere else.
Welcome aboard MonkeyMan23!
What's the reaction to the article that you're seeing elsewhere?
Quote from: Shasarak;1120557In any case I agree with Evil Hat, if you dont like their politics then dont buy their products.
EXACTLY.
Give where you are fed.
Support what brings you joy.
Speak with your dollars.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1120570how do I get that free advertising for my gym?
Step 1: Abandon all integrity and declare all other gyms are racist, homophobic, misogynist rape havens.
Step 2: Splatter your gym in rainbow paint, idiotic slogans and give interviews how women are actually stronger then men.
Step 3: Profit?
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1120570How did Evil Hat get Vice to advertise them for free?
It's not hard. Nu-media needs a constant stream of outrage content and SJW content to get both clicks that pay the rent and the virtue points to appease the online leftists who are their core audience.
Quote from: S'mon;1120648My 85 year old mother dying of pancreatic cancer must be Literally Hitler.
Sorry about your Hitler mom. Kudos to her strength in the face of cancer.
[video=youtube;Ia7fUQXskvA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia7fUQXskvA[/youtube]
;)
They are a joke.
I'm just going to leave this here...
"Flannae. The Flan race have a bronze-colored complexion. This varies from a lighter, almost copper shade to a very dark tone which is deepest brown. Eye color is commonly dark brown, black, brown, or amber (in declining order of occurrence). Hair coloration is black, brown-black, dark brown, or brown. Also, Flannae tend to have wavy or curly hair. People of the Duchy of Tenh are pure Flan, proud of their bronze color. Geoff and Sterich, despite mixture, show strong Flan racial influence. The Rovers of the Barrens are of the copper-toned sort of Flannae, although the western tribes show the golden skin color of the Baklunish due to interpreeding with Wolf Nomad tribes. The people of the Hold of Stone Fist and the citizens of the Theocracy of the Pale are primarily hybrids, the former Flan/Suel, the latter Flan/Oeridian. The inhabitants of the Pale are particularly handsome."
This quote is from one of the books from the 1983 World of Greyhawk box set. Get this. The exact title of book in the set this quote is from is "A Catalogue of the Land of Flanaess Being the Eastern Portion of the Continent of Oerik, of Oerth". Get that? The Land of Flanaess. The Flan people were not just some periphery race for tokenism. It's the main race of the area surrounding the City of Greyhawk.
Feel free to compare and contrast to 5E's attempt at finally including a black race in the game which caused shit to hit the fan because they wore loin cloths and used spears.
We can post endless examples of how the hobby was "inclusive" both in written text (see above example) and at the table (I played w/ women in the 70's and transsexuals and furries in the 90s, and this kind of experience wasn't unusual - people were just happy to find other people to game with). However, the story that has been told and is now the truth is that gaming was terribly repressive, and now this group has fixed the problem. Yes, it's the old pattern of a group that wants power making up a crisis that never existed in the first place, and then fixing the fake crisis. However, in this case, they've won. This is the story being told in the media, and this is what everyone except us will believe, even though it's clearly made up.
Quote from: S'mon;1120648BTW I like how the article says Stoicism is Fascist. My 85 year old mother dying of pancreatic cancer must be Literally Hitler.
Sorry to hear about your mom.
I'm getting really tired of this. My personal policy was to try to separate the art from the artist. There are a lot of games I like produced by people I don't like. I may have to revisit that stance.
Evil Hat says they want to separate the art from the artist in regard to Lovecraft. Then they turn around and tell me if I don't like their politics, don't buy their stuff. Just pick one, folks. I'm happy to have everyone in gaming, regardless of what boxes they check off on the census form. I just don't need more of this "your politics = racism" crap. I go to pretend worlds because I'm sick of crap like that in the real one.
And I get that Lovecraft, were he alive today, would be an obvious racist. Were he alive today. Just about anybody who lived 100 years ago would be considered bigoted by today's standards. I hope these people understand that 100 years from now, people will probably look at everyone living now through the same lens.
Vice, a reputable news source promoting a reputable company producing reputable products. I see nothing wrong with this. After all, they've even done me the favor of letting me know I'm a fascist! Who knew?!
Quote from: S'mon;1120648BTW I like how the article says Stoicism is Fascist. My 85 year old mother dying of pancreatic cancer must be Literally Hitler.
My condolences. It's an extremely difficult experience in close family.
Quote from: S'mon;1120648My 85 year old mother dying of pancreatic cancer must be Literally Hitler.
So sorry to hear this. God be with you and her and your family.
Quote from: Almost_Useless;1120672I just don't need more of this "your politics = racism" crap..
Oh no no no! The new hotness in the circle of insanity these people inhabit is "your politics = fascism". Which is of course ironic given when you observe these people it is they who are, by textbook definition, the fascists.
Quote from: Lunamancer;1120664I'm just going to leave this here...
"Flannae. The Flan race have a bronze-colored complexion. This varies from a lighter, almost copper shade to a very dark tone which is deepest brown. Eye color is commonly dark brown, black, brown, or amber (in declining order of occurrence). Hair coloration is black, brown-black, dark brown, or brown. Also, Flannae tend to have wavy or curly hair. People of the Duchy of Tenh are pure Flan, proud of their bronze color. Geoff and Sterich, despite mixture, show strong Flan racial influence. The Rovers of the Barrens are of the copper-toned sort of Flannae, although the western tribes show the golden skin color of the Baklunish due to interpreeding with Wolf Nomad tribes. The people of the Hold of Stone Fist and the citizens of the Theocracy of the Pale are primarily hybrids, the former Flan/Suel, the latter Flan/Oeridian. The inhabitants of the Pale are particularly handsome."
This quote is from one of the books from the 1983 World of Greyhawk box set. Get this. The exact title of book in the set this quote is from is "A Catalogue of the Land of Flanaess Being the Eastern Portion of the Continent of Oerik, of Oerth". Get that? The Land of Flanaess. The Flan people were not just some periphery race for tokenism. It's the main race of the area surrounding the City of Greyhawk.
Feel free to compare and contrast to 5E's attempt at finally including a black race in the game which caused shit to hit the fan because they wore loin cloths and used spears.
You really missed the point on that one. At one time the Flan were the main race of humans in the Flanaess, but that time has long since passed in the prehistory of Greyhawk. By CY 576, Oeridian & Suel (and mixes of those two) humans vastly outnumber the Flan, and the Flan have largely been pushed into the periphery of the continent.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1120699You really missed the point on that one. At one time the Flan were the main race of humans in the Flanaess, but that time has long since passed in the prehistory of Greyhawk. By CY 576, Oeridian & Suel (and mixes of those two) humans vastly outnumber the Flan, and the Flan have largely been pushed into the periphery of the continent.
I haven't missed the point at all. It simply isn't the case. Neither the history, nor the time line, nor the migration map provided suggest the Flans were pushed anywhere. The quote I cited lists specific states--states major enough to be displayed on the world map. That is hardly periphery. And regardless of all that, i think you might have missed the real point. That the world is set up, in present state, in CY 576, so you can make your PC look the way you want your PC to look and its logical and justifiable in the world. All races included.
Quote from: MonkeyMan23;1120548I'm seeing this story being posted everywhere else. What does everyone here think of it?
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/y3mw5b/how-tabletop-rpgs-are-being-reclaimed-from-bigots-and-jerks
I'm mad that my evil plan to turn table top gaming into Auchwitz had been foiled.
Quote from: Lunamancer;1120717I haven't missed the point at all. It simply isn't the case. Neither the history, nor the time line, nor the migration map provided suggest the Flans were pushed anywhere. The quote I cited lists specific states--states major enough to be displayed on the world map. That is hardly periphery. And regardless of all that, i think you might have missed the real point. That the world is set up, in present state, in CY 576, so you can make your PC look the way you want your PC to look and its logical and justifiable in the world. All races included.
You made a claim that the Flan are not "some periphery race" but they really are little more than a minority in the land named for them. The nations you called 'major' are nothing of the sort; major nations would include Furyondy, Nyrond, Keoland, and the Great Kingdom of Aerdy, none of which are heavily populated by Flan. Even within the minor lands you named where Flan are indicated, it's unusual to see significant numbers of pure-blooded Flan (DoT excepted). So yeah, they are a "periphery race" that got pushed around by the migrations and aggression of the Suel and Oeridian tribes.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1120718I'm mad that my evil plan to turn table top gaming into Auchwitz had been foiled.
Or is this your Xanatos Gambit? Its going to be Auchwitz all the way down! :eek:
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DisastrousFatalBrownbear-size_restricted.gif)
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1120610Because before 5e it was all white straight males (puagh!) right? Even idiots like Tanahesi Coates say they grew up playing D&D. But yeah there were all whites before the woke brigade got it's dirty paws in the hobby.
Good thing these white, middle-class journalists/developers put a stop to that.
Although it will never cease to amuse me that they fawn over a game where you insert as a supremely powerful, influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims.
Quote from: Snark Knight;1120752Good thing these white, middle-class journalists/developers put a stop to that.
Although it will never cease to amuse me that they fawn over a game where you insert as a supremely powerful, influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims.
Said victims even include children.
It's the identification with evil, they do the same in every medium, fawn over the villain, as long as it's of the correct identity.
Quote from: TNMalt;11205745e has brought in a diverse pop of new players. And I view this as a reaction to real world events. Seeing frat boys with tiki torches spouting anti semitic slogans in the news does that. So I understand the need to have the game table be a refuge from the outside world.
I see role playing as a refuge from the outside world. I see fantasy and science fiction genres in the same way. I want an activity where I can escape from the extreme leftism, misandry, and anti-white racism that seems to dominate so much of life these days. Unfortunately, geeky hobbies are increasingly becoming dominated by SJW's who are using them to push their odious hateful ideology.
Quote from: Snark Knight;1120752Good thing these white, middle-class journalists/developers put a stop to that.
Although it will never cease to amuse me that they fawn over a game where you insert as a supremely powerful, influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims.
Both
Geeky Bugle and yourself seem unclear on some aspects of gaming here. First, everyone wasn't and hasn't been
"all white" in gaming. In wargaming and RPG gaming I had Japanese, Chinese, Black Guys (i.e. African Americans), and Mexican/Spanish guys (and gals) in my gaming group as far back as the late 70's. Some of them were even GMs. One of my best wargaming opponents at the early GhenghisCon conventions was a black guy who was a commissioned officer, A west pointer who was an instructor at the Army War College when I first met him. First three times I played him in
Squad Leader, he decisively defeated me, and every year I played in the State Tournament and had consistently ranked in the top ten, usually finishing between fourth and sixth (once I even finished second). So I was quite surprised not that i had been beaten, But that I had been decisively defeated losing just about my entire army in the course of our fights. That was an unprecedented experience for me. So then we discussed tactics, and he admitted that my tactics were spot on, and that a good infantry commander in a real battle would commit his forces in the same or a very similar manner that i did while we were playing. He explained that I failed to beat him because I didn't understand the
"game mechanics" and
"math" of the game we were playing. and I was like, WTF?
In
Squad Leader there is a combat results table. It's been around since the beginning of wargaming pretty much. When you make an attack, you add up all of the attack factors of your combat force, and then roll the dice, 2d6, to get your result. Depending on the strength of the attack you either have no result at all meaning your attack was completely ineffective, you wound or kill a couple guys in the squad breaking the morale of the unit(s) you are attacking forcing the unit to hunker down or retreat to avoid any further casualties, or the unit is completely eliminated taking so many casualties, and having their morale so thoroughly decimated, that they will not be an effective fighting force for the remainder of the time the game is being played. In short they are eliminated. If a unit has its' morale broken twice in a single turn, it is routed and also permanently eliminated. He managed to consistently decisively win because he split up his forces, made many individual low powered attacks, and didn't stack his squads to concentrate his forces and make high-powered attacks, opting instead to make many more low powered attacks, going for high quantity attacks versus high quality attacks. The Squad leader combat results table favored this
"unrealistic" and historically inaccurate tactic, and the actual result was that a dispersed weak force was 1) hard to kill, because of the high quantity of targets, and 2) Would do more damage with each squad making a separate attack roll dramatically increasing the probability that the target units morale could be broken. With a double or more quantity of attacks, it is much easier to kill a unit by breaking its morale twice in a single turn, than by eliminating it by subjecting it to a withering and intense amount of fire.
So I was losing not because I wasn't a good tactician and battlefield commander, but because up until that time, I didn't properly understand the game mechanics of the game (Squad Leader), that we had been playing. My takeaway lessons from the series of games that I played with him was:
1) the Game Mechanics expressed in the rules are the single most important factor for any game, and have absolutely no bearing on what actually occurs in the real world. The mechanics and rules need to be evaluated and all aspects and implications understood, ...prior to play.
2) It wasn't only white guys that could be superbly good at running or playing wargames, or roleplaying games for that matter, since you only need to understand the rules of what game is actually being played.
What I learned upped my
Squad Leader game considerably, and thereafter, I never ranked less than third in
Squad Leader boardgame tournaments, ...well, ...anywhere.
I don't think that
Dungeons and Dragons, especially 5th edition, is a game about an
"influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims." I think a very tiny, tiny, subgroup of players and GMs are playing this game that way, and that they have learned to play that particular version of game, because of the education received within their specific emerging social group, or culture. I think this play style is getting an unwarranted amount of attention and press coverage (even though it is only actually being played by a tiny percentage of gamers) because of the divisive and controversial implications of playing in this manner far outweighs the way most GMs and players actually are playing the game. But because it is controversial, it is getting undeserved attentions in both the news, and in some gaming forums.
Finally, The marketplace, and the specific distribution channels of early
Dungeons and Dragons (and other roleplaying games in general) originated in the small town midwest, instead of on the East or West coast. This was a game that was specifically marketed into the local hobby shops, comic book stores, and game stores of small town (midwest) America, and spread from there. Here in Indiana, the population breakdown is like this...
Indiana Population 2020 census estimate -- 6,745,354
White: 83.59%
Black or African American: 9.33%
Two or more races: 2.45%
Asian: 2.18%
Other race: 2.18%
Native American: 0.22%
Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander: 0.04%
Let's look at Wisconsin, the true home of D&D
Wisconsin Population 2010 census estimate -- 5,686,986
White: 83.3%
Black or African American: 6.2%
Hispanic 5.9%
Two or more races: 1.4%
Asian: 2.3%
Other race: 2.18%
Native American: 0.9%
Midwest Population 2010 Census estimate
White: 67.8%
Hispanic 17.1%
Black or African American: 10.7%
Asian: 2.4%
Two or more races: 1.6%
Other race: .1%
Native American: 0.3%
United States 2020 Census Estimates -- Population 330,200,286
White: 59.2% (Actual)
Hispanic 16.3%
Black or African American: 12.6%
Asian: 4.8%
Two or more races: 3.1%
Other race: 6.2%
Native American: 0.9%
I'd just like to note for my research here today that the demographics available falsely indicates that white people make up about 72% of the population of the United States as of the 2010 census. This is false. My actual research, counting the minority races first indicate only about 59.2% of the population is Caucasian or white. In the midwest where Roleplaying Games originated, that number is much higher, more than 75% are White, because white people are now concentrated in the heartland, including the midwest, and the East and West Coast are both much more diverse.
Here is the demographic breakdown for California for example...
California Population 2020 census estimate -- 39,937,489
White: 60.10%
Asian: 14.32%
Other race: 13.83%
Black or African American: 5.79%
Two or more races: 4.81%
Native American: 0.76%
Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander: 0.39%
...and New York
New York Population 2020 census estimate -- 19,440,469
White: 63.79%
Black or African American: 15.64%
Other race: 8.76%
Asian: 8.31%
Two or more races: 3.05%
Native American: 0.41%
Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander: 0.04%
New York City
New York City 2020 census estimate -- 8,398,748
White: 42.67%
Black or African American: 24.27%
Other race: 15.12%
Asian: 13.95%
Two or more races: 3.51%
Native American: 0.43%
Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander: 0.05%
My whole point is, is for most of the history of RPGs, the group that adopted the game, and played it the most, is of course, white people because the game originated in the area of the country, and was distributed from the area of the United States with the highest Caucasian or "White" population. Now this is not a statement of superiority, or of racism, it is merely an inconvenient fact for sjw cucks and woke fucks that refuse to acknowledge the truth of this, or who would like to change the history, or narrative of the evolution of RPG's.
America as a whole, is becoming more diverse though, and White people are expected to become the actual minority of the total population as soon as 2045 if current census trends in race and population growth remain. This is also the reason Donald Trump and his Ilk are trying to stop the tide by building new walls, but it is
waaaaaaay toooo late for that. The population is going to flip not because of external immigration, but because of already existing internal population birthrate and deathrate trends, just sayin'
As for RPG gaming, Not sure why anyone would be offended because in the United States, mostly ( however definitely not only!!!) white people play D&D 5e? ~The RPGSite -- Now with more actual facts and newsworthy reports than VICE magazine, since 2020 at least!
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120758Both Geeky Bugle and yourself seem unclear on some aspects of gaming here. First, everyone wasn't and hasn't been "all white" in gaming.
You might want to get your sarcasm detector fixed, friend.
Quote from: Snark Knight;1120759You might want to get your sarcasm detector fixed, friend.
He needs his brain fixed too.
Quote from: Snark Knight;1120759You might want to get your sarcasm detector fixed, friend.
Says the guy(s) supporting the guy who says, and I quote
"Although it will never cease to amuse me that they fawn over a game where you insert as a supremely powerful, influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims." all the while referring to D&D and 5e linking them inextricably in the minds of all readers with the
"woke" losers who are intent on making all games (as many as they can) like this. I'll be happy to adjust my worldview to accommodate better games and gaming,
but never for this, and would also say, ...that you should adjust your sarcasm detector first, and not presume ill intent just because the game originated within a non-diverse and unified race, and cultural group.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120764Says the guy(s) supporting the guy who says, and I quote "Although it will never cease to amuse me that they fawn over a game where you insert as a supremely powerful, influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims."
I am reasonably certain that he was implicitly referring to the fact that many of these journalists/activists are fans of
Vampire in various forms.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120764Says the guy(s) supporting the guy who says, and I quote "Although it will never cease to amuse me that they fawn over a game where you insert as a supremely powerful, influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims." all the while referring to D&D and 5e linking them inextricably in the minds of all readers with the "woke" losers who are intent on making all games (as many as they can) like this. I'll be happy to adjust my worldview to accommodate better games and gaming, but never for this, and would also say, ...that you should adjust your sarcasm detector first, and not presume ill intent just because the game originated within a non-diverse and unified race, and cultural group.
Mate, I will actually pay you to get the detector fixed at this point.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1120765I am reasonably certain that he was implicitly referring to the fact that many of thee journalists/activists are fans of Vampire in various forms.
There's no use, he's a religious fanatic, he thinks that anything that transgresses against his morality should be banned, yes even in fiction. And said fanaticism prevents him from ever reading what I or Snark Knight said as mocking the SJWs. In his mind you're either on his side or you're a bad person, the mirror image of the SJWs.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1120765I am reasonably certain that he was implicitly referring to the fact that many of these journalists/activists are fans of Vampire in various forms.
That's the vibe I picked up...
Quote from: Simon Fiasco;1120769That's the vibe I picked up...
Really? In this thread about Vice's article specifically naming 5e
Vampire the Masquerade? This is not 5th edition Vampire they are slamming in the Vice article, it's D&D, and specifically the 5e D&D version of Vampire. To be clear, this article also disparaged Evil Hat's
Fate of Cthulu and
Numenara as well as being objectionable on moral grounds because of the racial views of the original Cthulu author which Fred Hicks has absolutely no control over, because
HP Lovecraft has been dead for some time now, and because for some reason now, Monte and Bruce, and Shaina and co. are
BBBaaaaaaaddddd! for making their own game that just happens to include an open morals system. Screw that, they are great game designers and have been for decades. Now they are not, and just because VICE says so, What VICE claims, must now be true? ...yeah, ...vibes.
In the article itself;
"It's possible to play in uncomfortable places safely. Vampire: The Masquerade's 5th edition release made headlines when publisher White Wolf was accused of anti-semitism, promoting pedophilia, and marketing to neo-Nazis. White Wolf's response was clear and fast--it modified language in its game, apologized profusely, and included an appendix titled "Advice for Considerate Play," which detailed how to handle violence, fascism, and sexual trauma sensitively in a tabletop RPG. Then, White Wolf quickly destroyed the good will it had built up among its fans when it used Chechnya's LGBTQ community as a prop in a section of a Vampire book. White Wolf apologized, again, and Paradox Interactive--its parent company--reined it in."That's a pretty fast and loose statement coming from any news organization, and lamentable coming from VICE, ...that it is possible to play games in uncomfortable places safely. The question really shouldn't be whether it is possible or not, the question should be, is it a good idea to play in uncomfortable places in the first place? Especially with players that aren't aware prior to the game, that they are going to be in a game that includes direct challenges to their moral or spiritual beliefs, and whether it is appropriate as a game designer to actually create a game that would take advantage of players that are unaware of the game they are actually playing? Is that the way RPGs should be played? Is that the way the majority of people play RPGs?
Happy Daze discredited the Vice article very early in this thread correctly stating
"That implies (or, perhaps, outright states) that RPGs were, as a whole, previously a field claimed as owned/run/created by bigots. I see that as a false start at best." Which I happen to agree with completely, and go back to my original quote concerning this;
"I don't think that Dungeons and Dragons, especially 5th edition, is a game about an 'influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims. ' I think a very tiny, tiny, subgroup of players and GMs are playing this game that way, and that they have learned to play that particular version of game, because of the education received within their specific emerging social group, or culture.' I think this play style is getting an unwarranted amount of attention and press coverage (even though it is only actually being played by a tiny percentage of gamers) because of the divisive and controversial implications of playing in this manner far outweighs the way most GMs and players actually are playing the game. But because it is controversial, it is getting undeserved attentions in both the news, and in some gaming forums."
Quote from: HappyDaze;1120719You made a claim that the Flan are not "some periphery race"
I didn't make claims. I posted a direct quote from the book and used the title from that same book to put it in context.
Quotebut they really are little more than a minority
There are four major races in this area of the world. All things being equal, I'd expect any one of the four to represent less than 50% of the whole. In that sense, sure, the Flan are a minority. The Flan are not, however, one of the nameless unmentioned-but-alluded-to races. There's no way of getting around the fact that they are a major race in the area.
QuoteThe nations you called 'major' are nothing of the sort;
They're important enough to be shown on the world map and described in the books. Unlike the endless, nameless petty kingdoms not mentioned. I neither drew the map nor wrote the book. I didn't call them anything. This just is what's in the box set.
Quotemajor nations would include Furyondy, Nyrond, Keoland, and the Great Kingdom of Aerdy,
And many others as well, including several Flan states mentioned by name in the quote I posted.
QuoteEven within the minor lands you named where Flan are indicated, it's unusual to see significant numbers of pure-blooded Flan (DoT excepted).
Pure-blooded members of all the major races are the exception rather than the rule. Of the short list major states you chose to mention, only Furyondy is mainly pure Oeridian. Nyrond is Oeridian with a mix of Suloise, Keoland is just as much Suloise and Oeridian but also has a mix of Flan, and the Oeridians of the Great Kingdom are roughly equal parts Suloise blood.
QuoteSo yeah, they are a "periphery race" that got pushed around by the migrations and aggression of the Suel and Oeridian tribes.
And yet the migration map shows Flan tribes as remaining stationary rather than moving from one place to another, with no in-roads even made by the other races to move towards the areas of Tenh or Geoff. In the area around the Rovers of the Barrens, the map almost appears as if Baklunish and Oeridian migrations were repelled by the Flan there. There is no indication anywhere that the Flan race got pushed around. The history of eastern Oerik indicates part of what made Oeridians successful in eastern Oerik were alliances with the Flan. There is also no indication that the Flan are a periphery race. To the contrary, the book (not me) actually states, "The dark Flan complexion shows up quite often in most nations."
As for White Wolf, they have been in their own train wreck for quite some time, pretty much from the beginning. I still remember the early Origins and especially their GenCon LARP games. At the shows I stopped counting the number of times I was approached by some sexy fanged Vampire woman, or androgynous vamp, and invited to an after hours private party in one of the outlying Hotel rooms. I'm pretty sure White Wolf blackmailed a lot of their players into being loyal followers by getting compromising photos of their players at after hours parties at game shows, and then using that as leverage to exploit them and have them in turn, attempt to exploit others.
Now there were two kinds of White Wolf Vamps from this subgroup of Vampire Players that attended game shows. Those that were blackmailed and unwilling (who ditched White Wolf and quietly disavowed their participation, as soon as they realized White Wolf was actually weak), and the willing, those that were completely happy to be thralls, slaves, or subs, and thrived in that environment, and who enjoyed corrupting, compromising, or counting coup on unsuspecting Vampire players.
This, more than anything else, is why i actually wouldn't buy any White Wolf books, or run any Vampire games.
Vice Delenda Est
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120777I'm pretty sure White Wolf blackmailed a lot of their players into being loyal followers by getting compromising photos of their players at after hours parties...
The sure road to RPG industry success.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1120765I am reasonably certain that he was implicitly referring to the fact that many of these journalists/activists are fans of Vampire in various forms.
Quote from: Simon Fiasco;1120769That's the vibe I picked up...
Yes, it was 100% obvious to anyone who played RPGs or visited an RPG-related forum in the past 3 decades that it was a Vampire reference.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1120768There's no use, he's a religious fanatic, he thinks that anything that transgresses against his morality should be banned, yes even in fiction. And said fanaticism prevents him from ever reading what I or Snark Knight said as mocking the SJWs. In his mind you're either on his side or you're a bad person, the mirror image of the SJWs.
So basically a MJW (aka moral justice warrior).
Quote from: S'mon;1120648BTW I like how the article says Stoicism is Fascist. My 85 year old mother dying of pancreatic cancer must be Literally Hitler.
My sympathies to you and yours during this trying time. :( *Something, something [insert amusing tension-deflecting WWII reference here]*
When words devolve into meaning nothing, anything can then be labeled The Enemy. It literally is the primrose path to hell for good intentions. :cool: That's why I always respected the fight here on TheRPGSite to hold the line for meaning. (That said, words often do have more than one meaning and inflection... But that is not the issue compared to the deliberate disruption tactic of dissolving meaning.)
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1120637Or even male! I have no idea how we managed to play with a female Latina at my table in the 90's. There were no Woke to show us the way back then!
One of the early players of D&D was a girl even. Helen Cook.
Quote from: GameDaddy;11207582020 census estimate -- 6,745,354
White: 83.59%
Black or African American: 9.33%
Two or more races: 2.45%
Asian: 2.18%
Other race: 2.18%
Native American: 0.22%
Native Hawaiian or Pacific Islander: 0.04%
1. 2020 Census doesn't begin counting until April so how the heck is there a 2020 Census estimate data?
2. What happened to hispanic/latino in your data? Sure looks like that's been counted as "white"?
3. Where the F did you get that data?
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120777As for White Wolf, they have been in their own train wreck for quite some time, pretty much from the beginning. I still remember the early Origins and especially their GenCon LARP games. At the shows I stopped counting the number of times I was approached by some sexy fanged Vampire woman, or androgynous vamp, and invited to an after hours private party in one of the outlying Hotel rooms. I'm pretty sure White Wolf blackmailed a lot of their players into being loyal followers by getting compromising photos of their players at after hours parties at game shows, and then using that as leverage to exploit them and have them in turn, attempt to exploit others.
Now there were two kinds of White Wolf Vamps from this subgroup of Vampire Players that attended game shows. Those that were blackmailed and unwilling (who ditched White Wolf and quietly disavowed their participation, as soon as they realized White Wolf was actually weak), and the willing, those that were completely happy to be thralls, slaves, or subs, and thrived in that environment, and who enjoyed corrupting, compromising, or counting coup on unsuspecting Vampire players.
This, more than anything else, is why i actually wouldn't buy any White Wolf books, or run any Vampire games.
This is the most amusing post so far in this thread.
Quote from: Mistwell;11208053. Where the F did you get that data?
Probably the same place he got White Wolf ordering the Vampire LARPers to blackmail their own Players into enforcing the status quo.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120777White Wolf is turning the frogs into Vampires!
NOT AN ACTUAL QUOTE
But in essence that's what the MJW is saying. Not sure if I should laugh my ass off, cry or simply pray to the flying spaghetti monster someone close to him calls the men in white to come and put him in a padded room.
Quote from: Snowman0147;1120794So basically a MJW (aka moral justice warrior).
Basically yes, he lost his mind, someone should put him in a padded room before he hurts himself or someone else.
Quote from: jeff37923;1120806This is the most amusing post so far in this thread.
It reminds me of that guy on here who said there were white supremacist rape breeding camps secreted away in northern California somewhere.
It's like these guys were built in some thespy point-buy game system. "You must nominate one crazy thing your character believes passionately, which you absolutely must mention at a time when you are otherwise trying to establish your credibility."
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1120812It reminds me of that guy on here who said there were white supremacist rape breeding camps secreted away in northern California somewhere.
It's like these guys were built in some thespy point-buy game system. "You must nominate one crazy thing your character believes passionately, which you absolutely must mention at a time when you are otherwise trying to establish your credibility."
Greetings!
*Laughing* Fucking hilarious, Kyle!:D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
So...Gary Gygax named a race of bronze humans in Greyhawk after a famous caramel Mexican dessert?
LOL. Flan is tasty! No wonder monsters want to eat people.
Here's a Flan recipe! With a video!
https://www.allrecipes.com/recipe/20979/spanish-flan/
And it might not a be Mexican-only dish, but I've only seen it at Mexican restaurants. Totally better fresh at home though.
Quote from: PencilBoy99;1120666However, the story that has been told and is now the truth is that gaming was terribly repressive, and now this group has fixed the problem. Yes, it's the old pattern of a group that wants power making up a crisis that never existed in the first place, and then fixing the fake crisis. However, in this case, they've won. This is the story being told in the media, and this is what everyone except us will believe, even though it's clearly made up.
Hmm...this concept of "in this case, they've won" deserves its own thread discussion.
I'm not in a position to agree or disagree because I don't know how this article is being received beyond our forum.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1120718I'm mad that my evil plan to turn table top gaming into Auchwitz had been foiled.
I have family who were murdered by the actual Nazis....
...and I'm laughing hysterically at Ratman's post!
Quote from: ShieldWife;1120756Unfortunately, geeky hobbies are increasingly becoming dominated by SJW's who are using them to push their odious hateful ideology.
While this is true online, the offline world is a different story.
As long as you can find 3-5 other deplorable inhuman monsters to game with, you can always have a great home game regardless of what's happening online.
Quote from: Doc Sammy;1120779Vice Delenda Est
Fuck yeah....and we shall digitally salt their broken URL so no bytes can grow there again!!! :)
May "go woke, go broke" visit its delicious wrath upon their bottom line!
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120777I'm pretty sure White Wolf blackmailed a lot of their players into being loyal followers by getting compromising photos of their players at after hours parties at game shows, and then using that as leverage to exploit them and have them in turn, attempt to exploit others.
White Wolf's Vampire, especially its LARPs, provided a conduit between the gamer and goth subculture.
Which meant gamer dorks got laid.
White Wolf didn't need to exploit anyone. Vampire LARPS offered the very real possibility that dice tossers would get their knobs wet, aka the most powerful mind control drug in human existence.
At its height, Vampire was the RPG with benefits!
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1120812It's like these guys were built in some thespy point-buy game system. "You must nominate one crazy thing your character believes passionately, which you absolutely must mention at a time when you are otherwise trying to establish your credibility."
THAT would be a truly fun Disadvantage to roleplay for GURPS or HERO.
Quote from: Snark Knight;1120752it will never cease to amuse me that they fawn over a game where you insert as a supremely powerful, influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims.
I
know, right?
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120758I don't think that Dungeons and Dragons, especially 5th edition, is a game about an "influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims."
No, that's Vampire: The Masquerade.
Dungeons and Dragons is a game about a group of privileged adventurers colonizing the spaces of oppressed minorities.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120764Says the guy(s) supporting the guy who says, and I quote "Although it will never cease to amuse me that they fawn over a game where you insert as a supremely powerful, influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims." all the while referring to D&D and 5e linking them inextricably in the minds of all readers with the "woke" losers who are intent on making all games (as many as they can) like this.
Again, they're talking about Vampire: The Masquerade.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120771Really? In this thread about Vice's article specifically naming 5e Vampire the Masquerade?
Exactl...
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120771This is not 5th edition Vampire they are slamming in the Vice article, it's D&D, and specifically the 5e D&D version of Vampire.
...nevermind.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120771To be clear, this article also disparaged Evil Hat's Fate of Cthulu and Numenara
It did exactly the opposite!
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120771I don't think that Dungeons and Dragons, especially 5th edition, is a game about an 'influential race of predators who conduct an extended analogy for sexual assault on vulnerable victims. '
*sigh*
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120777I'm pretty sure White Wolf blackmailed a lot of their players into being loyal followers by getting compromising photos of their players at after hours parties at game shows, and then using that as leverage to exploit them and have them in turn, attempt to exploit others.
At least you're not accusing them of being a Death Cult.
Quote from: Snark Knight;1120767Mate, I will actually pay you to get the detector fixed at this point.
We're already paying for it.
Quote from: Mistwell;11208051. 2020 Census doesn't begin counting until April so how the heck is there a 2020 Census estimate data?
2. What happened to hispanic/latino in your data? Sure looks like that's been counted as "white"?
3. Where the F did you get that data?
1. People have been already working on the Census here since the middle of last year.
2. Good question. Remember I am in Indiana original home of both the Ku Klux Klan, as well as the FBI. Not much has changed here in a hundred years, however people will let you believe what you want, so getting accurate data can be challenging. A good baseline would be the Midwest data I suppose, however there are fewer latinos in rural Indiana, I'd personally estimate 6-7% of the total population here.
3. https://www.governing.com/gov-data/census/state-minority-population-data-estimates.html is one of the sites I gleaned some data from, also Wikipedia.. also, a couple other places...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race
Quote from: jeff37923;1120807Probably the same place he got White Wolf ordering the Vampire LARPers to blackmail their own Players into enforcing the status quo.
I doubt it was an official order from White Wolf... I should have taken photos. Anyway just a tiny bit of what happened has come out in other venues... Some of White Wolf's enclaves, and coven misbehavior goes back much further than 2012-2013 by the way.
Official Statement from Onyx Path from last year
http://theonyxpath.com/about-matt-mcfarland/
Stepping away after being called out publicly.
https://www.geeknative.com/64591/game-designer-matthew-mcfarland-closes-his-company-after-abuse-allegations/
here is the public document on the Camarilla secret societies. What do you suppose would be sensitive enough to be private
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HST91zpiHnfuXGKc_lgxpzOzPHMdEpyHz5fsrB5UzgQ/edit
Acts like a cult? Yep
Compartmentalizes to control information: Yep
Status Quo for the Sabbat
Support your local leader; your loyalty will be rewarded.
Status is the most important thing.
The Code of Milan will be the law of the land.
The pecking order is clear.
Support the Sabbat Inquisition and the Black Hand.
If the system is not broken, leave it alone.
Secretly support sieges and crusades while deriding them as unnecessary wastes of resources that could be better utilized somewhere else.
Do not favor removal of officers of the Sabbat unless absolutely necessary to preserve the tenets of the Sect.
...and on, and on.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1120812It reminds me of that guy on here who said there were white supremacist rape breeding camps secreted away in northern California somewhere.
It's like these guys were built in some thespy point-buy game system. "You must nominate one crazy thing your character believes passionately, which you absolutely must mention at a time when you are otherwise trying to establish your credibility."
Yes in California, and doubtless in many of other places there was a White Wolf enclave, coven, or clan. Stick your head in the sand all you want like some damned ostrich, that won't change the facts. I'm just glad I steered clear of them.
https://rpggeek.com/thread/2151679/further-development-matt-mcfarland-accusations
What does an SJW circular firing squad have to do with Vampire: the Adolescent Thespening?
Quote from: Spinachcat;1120821White Wolf didn't need to exploit anyone. Vampire LARPS offered the very real possibility that dice tossers would get their knobs wet, aka the most powerful mind control drug in human existence.
At its height, Vampire was the RPG with benefits!
You got that part right. With some clans and individuals within the clans
there was more to it, than that.I'm also glad I never used or had to use an RPG to get laid. Just, sayin.
My own personal take on what "Evil Hat" says in this Vice article, unashamedly biased :
- in the dark times before the Great Woke Awakening, RPG players were bigots and racists
- but we at Evil Hat saw the Light
- and then we published rules inspired by BDSM philosophy
- because Elf games are so much improved by BDSM-aware designers (whipping one's sub sex slave and inserting spindly things in its ass is a great framework for medieval fantasy RPGs, you know !)
- also, everyone who disagrees with us is a Fascist !
- but can I please hurl "milshakes" at people I don't agree with ? because I sometimes dream about real physical violence, and it makes my panties wet...
All charming people.
Y'know? It just occurred to me that Fate of Cthulhu isn't the first time Evil Hat has shown such hypocrisy by capitalizing on "problematic" IP. I'm talking of course of the "we think Lovecraft was a right evil bastard but we're so very happy to make a game based on his mythos and sell it" thing. The first time was with none other than the Dresden Files. I remember discussions some time ago about how both Jim Butcher and Harry Dresden are soooo very "problematic" (aka Not Woke) but the Evil Hat crew pressed ahead anyway. This on the grounds that Butcher is a personal friend of the Hat and it's a coveted property and goddamn does Evil Hat need the cash.
Quote from: GameDaddy;11208271. People have been already working on the Census here since the middle of last year.
2. Good question. Remember I am in Indiana original home of both the Ku Klux Klan, as well as the FBI. Not much has changed here in a hundred years, however people will let you believe what you want, so getting accurate data can be challenging. A good baseline would be the Midwest data I suppose, however there are fewer latinos in rural Indiana, I'd personally estimate 6-7% of the total population here.
3. https://www.governing.com/gov-data/census/state-minority-population-data-estimates.html is one of the sites I gleaned some data from, also Wikipedia.. also, a couple other places...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race
Right....both sources are 2017, and both list Hispanic/Latino.
Well, apart from whatever weird conspiracy thing is going on with vampire sex cults, my only beef with Evil Hat here is that they took this property, took a bunch of money from a kickstarter to make rules for it, and THEN tried to act like they had some kind of moral high-ground here, with the money already in their bank accounts. If they were truly so appalled by this man as to be having to print disclaimers about him, they shouldn't have taken the money and shouldn't have made the book, full stop.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120828here is the public document on the Camarilla secret societies. What do you suppose would be sensitive enough to be private
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HST91zpiHnfuXGKc_lgxpzOzPHMdEpyHz5fsrB5UzgQ/edit
Um . . . you do know how the Camarilla works, right? And did you even bother to
read the document?(no, of course not) It's not a list of secret societies that the
players can join, but rather a list of
in-game secret societies that you can have your
character join if you have the VIP points to spend on it - a measure to ensure that you've been a player in good standing for at least a certain amount of time before giving your character access to more off-the-wall things. Not a perfect system, sure, but all it is meant to do is ensure that introducing certain elements to the game is handled in a non-disruptive manner by players who have proven themselves non-disruptive in general.
Quote from: Valatar;1120867If they were truly so appalled by this man as to be having to print disclaimers about him, they shouldn't have taken the money and shouldn't have made the book, full stop.
So, if Lovecraft is all racist... and Evil Hat is completely transparent about that... is Fate of Cthulhu the most openly racist Lovecraft game?
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1120873Um . . . you do know how the Camarilla works, right? And did you even bother to read the document?(no, of course not)...
Yes, and ...yes, ...did you?
Quote from: SavageSchemer;1120865It just occurred to me that Fate of Cthulhu isn't the first time Evil Hat has shown such hypocrisy by capitalizing on "problematic" IP. I'm talking of course of the "we think Lovecraft was a right evil bastard but we're so very happy to make a game based on his mythos and sell it" thing. The first time was with none other than the Dresden Files. I remember discussions some time ago about how both Jim Butcher and Harry Dresden are soooo very "problematic" (aka Not Woke) but the Evil Hat crew pressed ahead anyway. This on the grounds that Butcher is a personal friend of the Hat and it's a coveted property and goddamn does Evil Hat need the cash.
You mean like when Jim kinda sorta vouched for Larry Correia (https://archive.is/We5jD)?
The only reason Jim remains swimming in this pool of sharks is because he doesn't make his opinions public.
Quote from: Valatar;1120867my only beef with Evil Hat here is that they took this property, took a bunch of money from a kickstarter to make rules for it, and THEN tried to act like they had some kind of moral high-ground here, with the money already in their bank accounts. If they were truly so appalled by this man as to be having to print disclaimers about him, they shouldn't have taken the money and shouldn't have made the book, full stop.
At the very least #EvilHat should have made the disclaimer
on the #Kickstarter itself while they were collecting money.
I wonder why they didn't.
Hmmm. Interesting. I honestly don't know why people are having such a hard time with Fred Hicks. I remember 2003 when he asked me to write FUDGE adventures and games for his fledgling game company, and I declined, but not because of anything personal, I was just too busy working on my own d20/open gaming stuff to care, and wasn't entirely confident the OGL would hold up under scrutiny. You know he likes Lovecraft and wrote several Cthulu games, and everyone is all up in arms what a fascist he is, because of how he puts together his gaming supplements. Any misogyny is only relevant if you make it relevant. For example, I have just never personally seen the appeal of Cthulu games, like, ...at all. So it's completely a non-issue what he writes, because I have like zero interest in Lovecraftian horror games. It is just not a Genre I would plunk down cash for.
I also remember the controversy with Larry Correia and Origins, where back in 2017 he was uninvited as the literary guest of honor that year, mostly because he is simply toxic, and obnoxious, not because he is a bad writer. I see now he was also uninvited to WorldCon in 2018 as well now, mostly for the same reasons. I will say that I wasn't pleased that because of his decision to uninvite Larry, GAMA asked him to step down as CEO for Origins. What most people didn't know about John Ward, is that he is an ex-cop, and took over Origins I think around 2008, to clean it up and make sure that there were no "incidents" involving LARPers and the LGBTQX community in Columbus. Not surprised the sjw would want to take down John for successfully doing just that, and he was in charge of growing Origins from an average attendance of about 12-14,000 to about double that number last year.
Anon, What do you have against Larry Correia?
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120935Anon, What do you have against Larry Correia?
If he's smart, nothing. :D
Back to the topic, though, I personally think all this hue and cry is, well, empty. Because ultimately, it's the players and the GM who decide how their game is gonna roll. It's really, REALLY hard to crunch-wire a game so deeply that house-ruling out stupid crap damages it irreparably.
Once the players and GMs get their grubby little mitts on your Social Justice Metaphor Dungeon Exploration Kit, it's only a matter of time until they've kitbashed it into MurderHobos Inc: How to Make Money with Kobold Spleens. Assuming they bother and don't just head over to a less preachy set of books.
Call me what you will but when I'm told someone is racist or whatever because they said thing X or believes thing Y, I do not see that as objectively valid or relevant, I mean, if Nathan Bedford Forest makes a tasty burger I'ma buy that sumbitch, you can't taste racism kids. Now, I may not vote for him to run the NBA or whatever but his beliefs are not really relevant to burgers or game products he might make. Also, consensus or hype of most any kind makes me automatically suspicious and wary; I do suffer with O.D.D. and telling me what to think is a good fast way to make me your enemy.
"But that guy does not respect women!!" yeah, so? I think it would be stupid to say that women are owed a default level of respect just for having a vagina, sure maybe under classic gender role models as the givers of life but today, when its a religious doctrine that a woman is perfectly interchangable with a man, then she can get the same default level of respect I give a man; which is NONE: PENDING MERIT.
Witnessing a struggle session or calls to initate one endgenders within me only contempt for those writhing about in competition for who can be the most outraged and for those who feel they must also compete because the rest of the herd is doing so. I am not a herd animal. I EAT herd animals. Get offended meatsack, get bent right over and get offended inside out to the extent that vlad the impaler gets a chubby.
If a genetically engineered clone of Hitler, ghengis khans ect (serpentor, essentially) makes a good product I WILL BUY THAT DAMN PRODUCT. How evil or gay or what he does to puppies in his spare time is not my concern.
But one way to get me to NOT buy a product, even if it is good, is to virtue signal and fret about wrongthink.
The day a Ghengis Khan clone cooks a burger for me is the day I eat that burger, for no other reason than to be able to say I've been served a burger by a Ghengis Khan clone...
I still have all of my books. They haven't reclaimed anything. They are just roleplaying, wannabe SJW heroes.
Only somewhat on topic, but have any of these CoC wannabes ever made inroads into Chaosium's market share? I recall that Trail of Cthulhu seemed to do reasonably well (I picked up a copy), but I think a lot of that had to do with it Being Ken Hite's project.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120828I doubt it was an official order from White Wolf... I should have taken photos. Anyway just a tiny bit of what happened has come out in other venues... Some of White Wolf's enclaves, and coven misbehavior goes back much further than 2012-2013 by the way.
Official Statement from Onyx Path from last year
http://theonyxpath.com/about-matt-mcfarland/
Stepping away after being called out publicly.
https://www.geeknative.com/64591/game-designer-matthew-mcfarland-closes-his-company-after-abuse-allegations/
here is the public document on the Camarilla secret societies. What do you suppose would be sensitive enough to be private
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HST91zpiHnfuXGKc_lgxpzOzPHMdEpyHz5fsrB5UzgQ/edit
Acts like a cult? Yep
Compartmentalizes to control information: Yep
Status Quo for the Sabbat
Support your local leader; your loyalty will be rewarded.
Status is the most important thing.
The Code of Milan will be the law of the land.
The pecking order is clear.
Support the Sabbat Inquisition and the Black Hand.
If the system is not broken, leave it alone.
Secretly support sieges and crusades while deriding them as unnecessary wastes of resources that could be better utilized somewhere else.
Do not favor removal of officers of the Sabbat unless absolutely necessary to preserve the tenets of the Sect.
...and on, and on.
You know, I've gotten so tired of this kind of SJW character assassination shit popping up that until I see that the victim has filed charges - I'm not going to care too much. It is the case of too many boys who have cried "Wolf!" I still have not seen or heard of any charges being filed against Matthew McFarland or Michelle Lyons-McFarland even though this story has been out for about a year and both have been publicly demeaned for being bad people.
Quote from: Slipshot762;1120953If a genetically engineered clone of Hitler, ghengis khans ect (serpentor, essentially) makes a good product I WILL BUY THAT DAMN PRODUCT. How evil or gay or what he does to puppies in his spare time is not my concern.
But one way to get me to NOT buy a product, even if it is good, is to virtue signal and fret about wrongthink.
You start off sounding as if what you care about is if the product is good -- but then you say that you've just got a different political litmus test that authors have to pass.
Personally, what I care about is if the product is good. I don't give a damn if the author is liberal or conservative, if they're a gamergater or an SJW.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120935Anon, What do you have against Larry Correia?
I'd second this question. I've met and corresponded with Larry on a few occasions (he was somewhere between an acquaintance and a friend of my brother before his writing career really took off, and he gave me a lot of insight and guidance on my own writing for a while) - he's a good guy, no matter what people may think about the whole
Sad Puppies thing or the shenanigans that ensued.
Quote from: jhkim;1120991I don't give a damn if the author is liberal or conservative, if they're a gamergater or an SJW.
I'm definitely influenced by whether I like the author. Eg I don't like right-wing Vox Day/Theodore Beale so I'll avoid buying stuff by him on that basis. If there's a left-wing author I like (Michael Moorcock eg), and their stuff looks interesting, I'll probably buy it. If they're a git (eg Philip Pullman) I'll avoid their stuff. I suppose there are extreme cases like Pat Mills of 2000AD comic where I don't much like them, I definitely don't like their politics, but I *really* like their stuff (in this case because 2000AD was such a formative experience for me in the early '80s) so I'll buy it.
Quote from: S'mon;1121006I'm definitely influenced by whether I like the author. Eg I don't like right-wing Vox Day/Theodore Beale so I'll avoid buying stuff by him on that basis. If there's a left-wing author I like (Michael Moorcock eg), and their stuff looks interesting, I'll probably buy it. If they're a git (eg Philip Pullman) I'll avoid their stuff. I suppose there are extreme cases like Pat Mills of 2000AD comic where I don't much like them, I definitely don't like their politics, but I *really* like their stuff (in this case because 2000AD was such a formative experience for me in the early '80s) so I'll buy it.
Yes, it is a sliding scale. The better the product from the author, the more I don't care if they are a raving loon. Heck, at some point you can even see that them being a raving loon was the cost of being able to make the thing. Likewise, I ain't supporting a murderer even if they are the da Vinca of RPGs. But outside the extremes, what we mostly have is people of slight loon status producing material of some modest degree of usefulness to some subset of the potential audience. They can get away with a lot in return for quality, but not an infinite amount.
However, mostly my time is limited in evaluating which products I'll check out enough to decide to buy. I've learned that people that go rabid on things that aren't essential to the product but can't stop talking about it--probably don't do very good work, either. So the only way they'll even get me to consider them is if someone else I trust affirms that they have some good stuff despite all that. It's not so much a product filter as an attention filter.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120922Yes, and ...yes, ...did you?
Of course, which is why I'm wondering how it's relevant to alleged blackmail schemes and an example of "misbehavior," to use your own term. How is this document in any way relevant to that when all it is is a list of in-game secret societies players in good standing may join under certain circumstances? Along with descriptions of the "common knowledge" of those societies that one might come across in game. Do you level this same charge at D&D 3e for having organization-focused Prestige classes? I may dislike some of White Wolf's practices, and I absolutely
loathe LARPing . . . well, at least their brand of LARPing(I haven't tried boffer yet, so I can't rule LARP out altogether). But this document doesn't support your accusations even a tiny bit, and anyone with even the tiniest amount of reading comprehension can see that.
Of course, you're the same person who somehow thought a post obviously about Vampire was actually about D&D when it was clearly a "they're complaining about X even though they give Y a pass when it's so much worse" type of post. A comparison showing hypocrisy. So I'm not holding out much hope for you, to be honest.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120935Anon, What do you have against Larry Correia?
Quote from: steelshadow;1120997I'd second this question.
Y'all missed the point. Anon didn't say he had anything against Larry. He might for all I know, but that's not what he was saying
in that particular post. He was linking to an example of something Jim Butcher said in agreement with Larry Correia that would - if Fred Hicks/Evil Hat were consistent in their actions and not total hypocrites - result in Evil Hat refusing to work with Butcher. It was an example showing Evil Hat's hypocrisy, not a statement of Anon's personal feelings about Butcher/Correia one way or the other.
Quote from: jhkim;1120991You start off sounding as if what you care about is if the product is good -- but then you say that you've just got a different political litmus test that authors have to pass.
Personally, what I care about is if the product is good. I don't give a damn if the author is liberal or conservative, if they're a gamergater or an SJW.
Perhaps you misunderstand, and I could have been clearer, unless you are saying that virtue signalling & wrongthink are inherent to one side of the political spectrum, which I would disagree with.
Let me try again; An outcry that we should not buy a given authors work because they are gay or racist makes me want to boycott the products of those who seem to think that such is relevant at all, out of pure spite for the insult of assuming i will respond in their favor to such meaningless emotional handwringing.
I disdain the notion that we must collectively gatekeep for tangenital reasons unrelating to the veracity of the work in question; and will actively boycott and work against anyone who so arrogantly thinks that i'm dumb enough to allow the "he's got cooties!" slander/brushing to cause me to help them ostracize someone. It is my policy to turn their desired result back upon them for the insult of thinking such is a valid tactic or remotely relevant. It's a pet peeve of mine. When a celebrity accepts their oscar and then pontificates with woke BS, whether it be right or left dogma, they earn my ire.
The politics of the individual are not relevant in my decision until they try to push or promote such upon me. I could know full well that an actor is a communist or an actual no-shit nazi and will by default not give that weight in deciding to see their film...until they pull a dixie chicks and piss me off by the very act of presuming I can or will be swayed by their totally irrelevant opinion on matters tangenital to the subject at hand. Reactionary maybe, sure. But biased? I would say not.
Mel Gibson saying things about jews while drunk would not sway my decision to see/not see his film, him urging us all to "name the jew" while accepting his award would though, it's like, the second you try to draw lines form teams and appeal to consensus you've not only lost me but now I'm hostile to you as a matter of policy, just to deter you from doing that sort of thing in the first place.
In a free society, we have the right to vote with our dollars.
When you buy a product, you express your support for that publisher and author.
If you buy that Genghis Burger, you're giving cash to Genghis. Maybe he uses your cash to make more tasty burgers, or maybe he uses it to destroy irreplaceable Chinese art, music and culture.
If Genghis getting your cash matters to you, then spend your dollars on an equally tasty burger from someone else.
If where your cash goes doesn't matter to you, that's also fine, but your dollars are still votes.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1121033In a free society, we have the right to vote with our dollars.
When you buy a product, you express your support for that publisher and author.
If you buy that Genghis Burger, you're giving cash to Genghis. Maybe he uses your cash to make more tasty burgers, or maybe he uses it to destroy irreplaceable Chinese art, music and culture.
If Genghis getting your cash matters to you, then spend your dollars on an equally tasty burger from someone else.
If where your cash goes doesn't matter to you, that's also fine, but your dollars are still votes.
Please stop with examples of common sense and personal accountability. They have no place in Victimville.
Quote from: Slipshot762;1121031The politics of the individual are not relevant in my decision until they try to push or promote such upon me. I could know full well that an actor is a communist or an actual no-shit nazi and will by default not give that weight in deciding to see their film...until they pull a dixie chicks and piss me off by the very act of presuming I can or will be swayed by their totally irrelevant opinion on matters tangenital to the subject at hand. Reactionary maybe, sure. But biased? I would say not.
Mel Gibson saying things about jews while drunk would not sway my decision to see/not see his film, him urging us all to "name the jew" while accepting his award would though, it's like, the second you try to draw lines form teams and appeal to consensus you've not only lost me but now I'm hostile to you as a matter of policy, just to deter you from doing that sort of thing in the first place.
Thanks for the clarification. I don't follow celebrities, so I might be missing some nuance of these examples. But to pick a more practical example for RPGs, I'd suggest the RPG Pundit as an example. He frequently posts on political topics - sometimes RPG-related, sometimes not. I think it's fair to say that the posts are proselytizing. And I frequently (though not always) disagree with his views. But I still have bought a number of his games, and I don't begrudge his airing his views. I think he's welcome to express his views and try to convince other people.
I think that people should try to advocate for their views. If someone truly believes that a group is trying to subvert the political system, then the moral choice for them is to call it out - and try to organize people against that subversion. That's what I would consider the free marketplace of ideas. They can be jerks about it, but just making an appeal isn't inherently being a jerk.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1121033In a free society, we have the right to vote with our dollars.
When you buy a product, you express your support for that publisher and author.
If you buy that Genghis Burger, you're giving cash to Genghis. Maybe he uses your cash to make more tasty burgers, or maybe he uses it to destroy irreplaceable Chinese art, music and culture.
You are free to buy products on whatever basis you like. Personally, I don't buy into the "everything is political" line -- such that where you buy your burgers should be decided on the basis of the politics of the burger chain. I use my political vote and voice to support a free society with strong rights -- so even if a burger chain gets money, they can't do criminal acts or have undue power over people's lives.
Quote from: Dimitrios;1120968Only somewhat on topic, but have any of these CoC wannabes ever made inroads into Chaosium's market share?
Market? Yes.
Market
share? No.
Quote from: jeff37923;1120989I still have not seen or heard of any charges being filed against Matthew McFarland or Michelle Lyons-McFarland even though this story has been out for about a year and both have been publicly demeaned for being bad people.
I'm only going by Matt's public statement, which whaddayaknow they deleted (https://medium.com/@blackhatmatt/stepping-away-aa98d21ad505).
But the internet never forgets (https://archive.is/gyRyX).
Quote from: GameDaddy;1120935What do you have against Larry Correia?
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1120937If he's smart, nothing. :D
Quote from: steelshadow;1120997I'd second this question.
Quote from: GeekEclectic;1121017Y'all missed the point. Anon didn't say he had anything against Larry. He might for all I know, but that's not what he was saying in that particular post. He was linking to an example of something Jim Butcher said in agreement with Larry Correia that would - if Fred Hicks/Evil Hat were consistent in their actions and not total hypocrites - result in Evil Hat refusing to work with Butcher. It was an example showing Evil Hat's hypocrisy, not a statement of Anon's personal feelings about Butcher/Correia one way or the other.
Yes they missed the point, and immediately jumped to questioning my tribal affiliations.
And that, my friends, is THE problem on the internet. That's why we can't have nice things. That's why we can't have rational discussions about important issues.
And it's as bad here as everywhere else.
Quote from: jhkim;1121060Thanks for the clarification. I don't follow celebrities, so I might be missing some nuance of these examples. But to pick a more practical example for RPGs, I'd suggest the RPG Pundit as an example. He frequently posts on political topics - sometimes RPG-related, sometimes not. I think it's fair to say that the posts are proselytizing. And I frequently (though not always) disagree with his views. But I still have bought a number of his games, and I don't begrudge his airing his views. I think he's welcome to express his views and try to convince other people.
I think that people should try to advocate for their views. If someone truly believes that a group is trying to subvert the political system, then the moral choice for them is to call it out - and try to organize people against that subversion. That's what I would consider the free marketplace of ideas. They can be jerks about it, but just making an appeal isn't inherently being a jerk.
You are free to buy products on whatever basis you like. Personally, I don't buy into the "everything is political" line -- such that where you buy your burgers should be decided on the basis of the politics of the burger chain. I use my political vote and voice to support a free society with strong rights -- so even if a burger chain gets money, they can't do criminal acts or have undue power over people's lives.
But does Pundit preach his personal politics in his products?
You are being disingenuous here, conflating expressing your political views in a post with turning what should be a game, a rulebook, a setting into nothing but propaganda for your political/religious views.
Furthermore, pundit has said several times he doesn't care if you agree with him on his political/religious/etc views, you can still enjoy his works because he doesn't preach to you from said works.
You are free to buy what you want from who you want on whatever basis you like, but again you either miss the point or are being disingenuous, buying from Ghengis Khan puts money in his pocket, if you disagree with what he does with his money you shouldn't give him yours.
Let me give you an example you'll maybe understand: A person X makes an RPG it's good, it doesn't preach, but said person is the leader of the KKK and he pays the bills for their chapters. Would you still buy from him? Knowing that any money you give him would likely be used to fund the KKK? Really?
Now maybe you can address the points and not go on a tangent or attack a strawman.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121064But does Pundit preach his personal politics in his products?
You are being disingenuous here, conflating expressing your political views in a post with turning what should be a game, a rulebook, a setting into nothing but propaganda for your political/religious views.
If something is actually nothing but political propaganda, then it isn't a good gaming product and I wouldn't buy it on that basis. However, that wasn't what we were talking about previously. Just having a paragraph in the intro describing H.P. Lovecraft's racism doesn't inherently turn the entire work into propaganda.
I don't know of any games that would truly be nothing but political propaganda. If you would care to cite actual examples, I'd like to hear them -- but it sounds like an over-the-top claim. There are some games with blatant political themes - like the The Price of Freedom RPG. However, I don't have any problem buying or playing The Price of Freedom. I've been considering running that.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121064You are free to buy what you want from who you want on whatever basis you like, but again you either miss the point or are being disingenuous, buying from Ghengis Khan puts money in his pocket, if you disagree with what he does with his money you shouldn't give him yours.
Let me give you an example you'll maybe understand: A person X makes an RPG it's good, it doesn't preach, but said person is the leader of the KKK and he pays the bills for their chapters. Would you still buy from him? Knowing that any money you give him would likely be used to fund the KKK? Really?
Now maybe you can address the points and not go on a tangent or attack a strawman.
Genghis Khan was actually an example from Slipshot762, who said he *would* buy from Genghis Khan.
I prefer to deal use real cases rather than over-the-top hypotheticals. For example, I wouldn't buy an RPG from Varg Vikernes -- a convicted murderer and white supremacist as well as RPG author. But that's an extreme case, and that's true regardless of whether there was preachy text from him in the product. Within nearly all other published RPGs, I don't care about the author's politics.
Quote from: jhkim;1121076If something is actually nothing but political propaganda, then it isn't a good gaming product and I wouldn't buy it on that basis. However, that wasn't what we were talking about previously. Just having a paragraph in the intro describing H.P. Lovecraft's racism doesn't inherently turn the entire work into propaganda.
I don't know of any games that would truly be nothing but political propaganda. If you would care to cite actual examples, I'd like to hear them -- but it sounds like an over-the-top claim. There are some games with blatant political themes - like the The Price of Freedom RPG. However, I don't have any problem buying or playing The Price of Freedom. I've been considering running that.
Genghis Khan was actually an example from Slipshot762, who said he *would* buy from Genghis Khan.
I prefer to deal use real cases rather than over-the-top hypotheticals. For example, I wouldn't buy an RPG from Varg Vikernes -- a convicted murderer and white supremacist as well as RPG author. But that's an extreme case, and that's true regardless of whether there was preachy text from him in the product. Within nearly all other published RPGs, I don't care about the author's politics.
So it's not "everything is political" but there are true legitimate political reasons not to buy from Varg. I wouldn't buy from him or for his mirror image on the other side, people that go for the intersectional/purity test/SocJus angle. Even if it wasn't in their game. Because at the end they are only the mirror image of the white supremacists.
Edited to add:Not gonna go buy something just to give you a blow by blow, but feel free to google #Feminism the rpg for but one example. There are others less obvious but just as guilty of propaganda.
Quote from: jhkim;1121076If something is actually nothing but political propaganda, then it isn't a good gaming product and I wouldn't buy it on that basis. However, that wasn't what we were talking about previously. Just having a paragraph in the intro describing H.P. Lovecraft's racism doesn't inherently turn the entire work into propaganda.
I think it's important to point out that Fate of Cthulhu doesn't have a paragraph in the intro describing H.P. Lovecraft's racism.
They have a sentence in the intro declaring that H.P. Lovecraft was a racist, and then a page justifying using the works of a racist as the basis of their RPG book.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1121095I think it's important to point out that Fate of Cthulhu doesn't have a paragraph in the intro describing H.P. Lovecraft's racism.
They have a sentence in the intro declaring that H.P. Lovecraft was a racist, and then a page justifying using the works of a racist as the basis of their RPG book.
The page in question can probably be summarized as: "We want your money, so buy our game."
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1121061Market? Yes.
Market share? No.
I'm only going by Matt's public statement, which whaddayaknow they deleted (https://medium.com/@blackhatmatt/stepping-away-aa98d21ad505).
But the internet never forgets (https://archive.is/gyRyX).
Yes they missed the point, and immediately jumped to questioning my tribal affiliations.
And that, my friends, is THE problem on the internet. That's why we can't have nice things. That's why we can't have rational discussions about important issues.
And it's as bad here as everywhere else.
I apologize, Anon. I was being a smartass. I've met Larry a couple times at convention, and he's always struck me as a decent sort.
You're absolutely right about the Internet not being a great place for discussions, though. And social media is the Internet hopped up on PCP and meth.
Quote from: jhkimI prefer to deal use real cases rather than over-the-top hypotheticals. For example, I wouldn't buy an RPG from Varg Vikernes -- a convicted murderer and white supremacist as well as RPG author. But that's an extreme case, and that's true regardless of whether there was preachy text from him in the product. Within nearly all other published RPGs, I don't care about the author's politics.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121081So it's not "everything is political" but there are true legitimate political reasons not to buy from Varg. I wouldn't buy from him or for his mirror image on the other side, people that go for the intersectional/purity test/SocJus angle. Even if it wasn't in their game. Because at the end they are only the mirror image of the white supremacists.
Can you clarify examples of who you think would qualify as the mirror image of Vikernes? My view would be that just going for a social justice angle doesn't make someone the mirror image of a convicted murderer like Vikernes.
Quote from: jhkimI don't know of any games that would truly be nothing but political propaganda. If you would care to cite actual examples, I'd like to hear them -- but it sounds like an over-the-top claim. There are some games with blatant political themes - like the The Price of Freedom RPG. However, I don't have any problem buying or playing The Price of Freedom. I've been considering running that.
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121081Not gonna go buy something just to give you a blow by blow, but feel free to google #Feminism the rpg for but one example. There are others less obvious but just as guilty of propaganda.
I have the #Feminism collection. I'd agree that it's overtly political -- but at least some of the games in the anthology are fun to play. I ran "You've Come a Long Way, Baby" by Julia Ellingboe at AmberCon Northwest 2016. It was a fun story game. We played out scenes from an over-the-top action movie (with the reverse of typical genders) along with playing behind-the-scenes of the actors who were filming the movie. I had a blast playing it with the five players I had at ACNW. I felt it was no more and no less political than playing Macho Women With Guns, which is another campy fun game I've enjoyed. I wasn't particularly taken by the anthology as a whole, but I was curious enough to pick it up.
It seems to me that playing out The Price of Freedom would be similar, with an opposite take.
Quote from: jhkim;1121102Can you clarify examples of who you think would qualify as the mirror image of Vikernes? My view would be that just going for a social justice angle doesn't make someone the mirror image of a convicted murderer like Vikernes.
I have the #Feminism collection. I'd agree that it's overtly political -- but at least some of the games in the anthology are fun to play. I ran "You've Come a Long Way, Baby" by Julia Ellingboe at AmberCon Northwest 2016. It was a fun story game. We played out scenes from an over-the-top action movie (with the reverse of typical genders) along with playing behind-the-scenes of the actors who were filming the movie. I had a blast playing it with the five players I had at ACNW. I felt it was no more and no less political than playing Macho Women With Guns, which is another campy fun game I've enjoyed. I wasn't particularly taken by the anthology as a whole, but I was curious enough to pick it up.
It seems to me that playing out The Price of Freedom would be similar, with an opposite take.
LOL, so you need to latch on only the convicted murderer bit? You're disingenuous. A convicted murderer is not always just as bad as a racist, and since white supremacists often want to get rid of other races, oppress gays, women, etc and SocJus advocates to get rid (or at least oppress) white people, men, straights, etc. the mirror reflection of one another.
I thought you'd have such a "game" collection and had liked it.
Quote from: jhkim;1121102It seems to me that playing out The Price of Freedom would be similar, with an opposite take.
We played this once, and it went about as exactly you'd expect from a bunch of 13 year old boys...WOLVERINES!
Quote from: jhkimIt seems to me that playing out The Price of Freedom would be similar, with an opposite take.
Quote from: Brad;1121108We played this once, and it went about as exactly you'd expect from a bunch of 13 year old boys...WOLVERINES!
Heh! Sounds like fun.
I'll see about running it some time.
Quote from: Brad;1121108We played this once, and it went about as exactly you'd expect from a bunch of 13 year old boys...WOLVERINES!
Then you played the game As Intended. :D
Quote from: jhkim;1121076I don't know of any games that would truly be nothing but political propaganda.
The free amateur RPG
DragonRaid was explicitly written as a tool of Christian evangelism; players had to quote Bible verses in order for their PCs to pull off in-game miracles. On a considerably scuzzier note, everybody remembers
RaHoWa, which fortunately for its supposed social-harm quotient would have been a genuinely terrible game even if all its racist elements had been "filed off" and replaced.
The Last Exodus was an explicitly anti-religious satire of a game that I personally chose not to purchase on that basis. I'm told by others who did, however, that it had serious production value problems completely aside from any philosophical objections, so it too may have been an inadvertent example, not of "Get Woke, Go Broke", but, um, I don't know ... "Games Which Preach Make Players Screech", maybe?
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1121061I'm only going by Matt's public statement, which whaddayaknow they deleted (https://medium.com/@blackhatmatt/stepping-away-aa98d21ad505).
But the internet never forgets (https://archive.is/gyRyX).
Thank you. He issued an apology, but it still looks like no charges have been filed. Just accusations.
Quote from: jhkimI don't know of any games that would truly be nothing but political propaganda.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1121112The free amateur RPG DragonRaid was explicitly written as a tool of Christian evangelism; players had to quote Bible verses in order for their PCs to pull off in-game miracles. On a considerably scuzzier note, everybody remembers RaHoWa, which fortunately for its supposed social-harm quotient would have been a genuinely terrible game even if all its racist elements had been "filed off" and replaced.
The Last Exodus was an explicitly anti-religious satire of a game that I personally chose not to purchase on that basis. I'm told by others who did, however, that it had serious production value problems completely aside from any philosophical objections, so it too may have been an inadvertent example, not of "Get Woke, Go Broke", but, um, I don't know ... "Games Which Preach Make Players Screech", maybe?
I've heard of Dragonraid but haven't actually seen a copy. My question would be: do Bible study students actually have fun playing it? If so, then it's a fun game for them. Even if I don't share their taste in games, I don't have any problem with them playing it.
I have looked over RaHoWa (short for "Racial Holy War"). On reflection, I'll buy that it's nothing but propaganda. As far as I can tell from reading, the content was just cobbled together - and it is a terrible game as you say. I don't think that white supremacists are having fun playing the game. Instead, it was just published for show.
But #Feminism or The Price of Freedom aren't like that. They're a niche market, but at least some people have fun playing them.
Quote from: jhkim;1121123#Feminism or The Price of Freedom aren't like that. They're a niche market, but at least some people have fun playing them.
I think for me the litmus test of whether a game's propaganda quotient has exceeded its entertainment quotient is whether the gratification of the propaganda is literally the
only thing that makes the game enjoyable; in other words, if someone who doesn't share the game's advocated positions isn't going to enjoy it at all, it's no longer a legitimate game. (Note that this isn't the same thing as sharing the
setting's required
assumptions. If you don't buy Lovecraft's nihilism you won't enjoy
Call of Cthulhu the same way a purist cosmic horror fan might, but nothing in
CoC urges players to adopt those assumptions as truth outside the game.)
The Price of Freedom sounds like it could at least do a decent technothriller adventure either way; by contrast, I suspect somebody who had nothing against Christianity but no interest in it would only find
DragonRaid fairly boring pretty quickly, or at the very least that it didn't do anything other fantasy games didn't do better.
Quote from: jhkim#Feminism or The Price of Freedom aren't like that. They're a niche market, but at least some people have fun playing them.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1121126I think for me the litmus test of whether a game's propaganda quotient has exceeded its entertainment quotient is whether the gratification of the propaganda is literally the only thing that makes the game enjoyable; in other words, if someone who doesn't share the game's advocated positions isn't going to enjoy it at all, it's no longer a legitimate game.
This calls for some armchair psychologizing of people's motives for play. If a bunch of Bible study students enjoy playing Dragonraid, I don't think it's my place to say that it isn't a legitimate game. Why and how they enjoy it is their own business.
I think there's a common trend in Internet of saying that how those other people play is badwrongfun, and even if they enjoy playing their game, it isn't a legitimate game - because they're enjoying it for the wrong reasons / or it isn't a real RPG / or some other excuse.
Note that I don't object to actual psychological study of people playing RPGs -- by psychologists who are really there to learn. But I think the armchair psychologizing to call games "illegitimate" or "badwrongfun" isn't actually informed at all. Personally, I don't see any point in calling games "illegitimate" or "badwrongfun".
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1121061Yes they missed the point, and immediately jumped to questioning my tribal affiliations.
And that, my friends, is THE problem on the internet. That's why we can't have nice things. That's why we can't have rational discussions about important issues.
And it's as bad here as everywhere else.
I misread your post, and for that I apologize - I definitely did not intend to coarsen the discourse.
Quote from: jhkim;1121060You are free to buy products on whatever basis you like. Personally, I don't buy into the "everything is political" line -- such that where you buy your burgers should be decided on the basis of the politics of the burger chain. I use my political vote and voice to support a free society with strong rights -- so even if a burger chain gets money, they can't do criminal acts or have undue power over people's lives.
You don't have to buy into everything is political for everything to be political.
Money is a form of speech, specifically an expression of support. Whether or not you want it to be. Chik-fil-A was an openly Christian business, so those who intentionally supported it or intentionally refused to eat there understood their clear motives.
But every time a person buys from Big Chain vs. Local Mom & Pop or vice versa, they are voting either for Big Corp or for Local Biz, regardless if they ever think about their action. Just like how individual votes do not decide elections, but mass votes certainly do, that's the same dynamic with dollars. Nationalism vs. Globalism and Main Street vs. Wall Street are political fights as each represents an ideology.
And political voting doesn't stop companies from having undue power in our lives. AKA, media, social media, high tech, etc.
Quote from: jhkim;1121130This calls for some armchair psychologizing of people's motives for play. If a bunch of Bible study students enjoy playing Dragonraid, I don't think it's my place to say that it isn't a legitimate game. Why and how they enjoy it is their own business.
This is a game I used to see come up in discussion every now and then back in the day, though this is the first mention of it I've seen in quite a few years. I remember looking into it, tracking down reviews, etc. and I found out that it was always intended as a
teaching tool first, and an RPG second. The authors were very upfront about that. It was never meant to be a game that would have a lot of mass appeal. It was meant to help people who were
already Christians and who would presumably consider the Bible worth learning to do so in a hopefully fun way. And even then I seriously doubt they expected it to appeal to all Christians. From what I read, the actual game elements were serviceable enough. But of course it's going to fall flat for any group without that buy-in.
On the subject of games with an agenda, kinda. There is Redemption. The Christian CCG. Its funded and produced by a Christian group and has been in print in various iterations for a long time now. Probably still is. The group that funded it also owned, or still own, a little chain of Christian merchandise stores and they usually had it on the shelves. There was one local here but not sure if its still around.
The interesting part was, it was pretty inoffensive for one of these projects. Dont know if that changed later. But the original game did not take pot-shots at anyone and stuck pretty well to its theme rather than derailing itself as some sort of attack platform. Which is the failing of about 90% of the other agenda games out there.
Meanwhile on Reddit r/KotakuInAction has been tearing Fate of Cthulhu to pieces. I've never seen so many threads created over a single RPG product before. Sadly some are now attacking the premise rather than the politics and losing sight of the issue.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;1121095I think it's important to point out that Fate of Cthulhu doesn't have a paragraph in the intro describing H.P. Lovecraft's racism.
They have a sentence in the intro declaring that H.P. Lovecraft was a racist, and then a page justifying using the works of a racist as the basis of their RPG book.
That's the bit which really gets me.
It wasn't enough to point out racism, they had to justify their actions to the entire world. And when people didn't
accept those justifications they doubled down and have been justifying themselves ever since.
Quote from: jeff37923;1121113Thank you. He issued an apology, but it still looks like no charges have been filed. Just accusations.
I think you might want to reread his statement, especially the part where he obfuscates things by admitting guilt, but not for what. And consider the fact he deleted it, which means it's no longer indexed and the comment history is lost.
Quote from: steelshadow;1121133I misread your post, and for that I apologize - I definitely did not intend to coarsen the discourse.
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1121097I apologize, Anon. I was being a smartass. I've met Larry a couple times at convention, and he's always struck me as a decent sort.
Apologies accepted, but I also don't want to discourage anyone from being a smartass.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1121185I think you might want to reread his statement, especially the part where he obfuscates things by admitting guilt, but not for what. And consider the fact he deleted it, which means it's no longer indexed and the comment history is lost.
Yeah, not gonna lie. That apology stuff was hella weird. What the fuck do sexual assault and statutory rape have to do with privilege??? Weren't those the two alleged crimes he was accused of? But then instead of addressing those he goes rambling about not checking his privilege or something, which is . . . at the very least irrelevant. I'm not sure if he's innocent or guilty, but I think he's definitely not the brightest bulb.
Quote from: jhkim;1121130Personally, I don't see any point in calling games "illegitimate" or "badwrongfun".
Conceded that it's a tricky and somewhat Bulveristic path to go down. Nonetheless, I still think it can be validly called an objective flaw in a game if it requires -- not just benefits from or can facilitate, but actively
requires -- committed philosophical agreement with its message in order to be enjoyed, because in practice that almost always means nothing else about the game is fun for its own sake. "Badwrongfun" is a subjective term of little use; "nofunatall without the propaganda" is, I think, a little less relative.
Quote from: jhkimPersonally, I don't see any point in calling games "illegitimate" or "badwrongfun".
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1121208Conceded that it's a tricky and somewhat Bulveristic path to go down. Nonetheless, I still think it can be validly called an objective flaw in a game if it requires -- not just benefits from or can facilitate, but actively requires -- committed philosophical agreement with its message in order to be enjoyed, because in practice that almost always means nothing else about the game is fun for its own sake. "Badwrongfun" is a subjective term of little use; "nofunatall without the propaganda" is, I think, a little less relative.
I think the latter is just dressing up a different way to say that a game is badwrongfun. It's just as subjective.
And further, I don't agree with the principle. It's perfectly possible that something like Dragonraid could be a really good game design that's fun on many levels -- but non-Bible-study-students would be put off by the strong Christian veneer. Likewise, I think non-white-supremacists would be put off from playing RaHoWa regardless of whether it was a good game design or not.
In general, I don't see the need to label games other people play as illegitimate. If Bible study students are playing and enjoying Dragonraid, why would one care enough to study it and label it illegitimate "notfunatall without the propaganda"?
Quote from: jhkim;1121250I think the latter is just dressing up a different way to say that a game is badwrongfun. It's just as subjective.
That's being a little generous, I think. "
Badwrongfun" is "You're doing something with this game that I (or 'Proper Players') wouldn't enjoy, therefore it's wrong." "
Nofunatall SA" (
Sans
Agitprop) is "The only thing anyone
can do with this game is something
nobody enjoys who doesn't already share its viewpoint." Imagine a hypothetical version of
DragonRaid which kept hammering home that everyone in both the game and real life, except those of a very specific denomination, was going to Hell if they didn't convert. However entertaining the gameplay as a set of rules taken separately from the fluff, in practice the propaganda would clearly ruin the game for far more players than not.
And yes, it's possible for anyone to take a given game and make it into something else, but the work you have to do and the distance you have to get from the starting point also make a difference. In
Werewolf: The Apocalypse, for example, the setting puts a very heavy emphasis on Wyld over Weaver and nature/environment over human civilization, but it is also possible with virtually no effort to make an entire pack out of nothing but Glass Walkers and Bone Gnawers and have all your PCs live happily in the city; there's no denying the game has a preferred message, but it gives ways for players to sidestep that message if they're not interested. A game which doesn't provide options of this kind is clearly more concerned with proselytizing to its players than with entertaining them, and that's what I consider objectionable.
EDIT: Actually, here's a better way to ask the question, inspired by one of the other threads I've been participating in. When wondering whether a game is too full of proselytization to be entertaining except for the choirs it's clearly preaching to, ask yourself this: Would anyone bother to create, or play, a GURPS adaptation of it?
Quote from: jhkim;1121250In general, I don't see the need to label games other people play as illegitimate. If Bible study students are playing and enjoying Dragonraid, why would one care enough to study it and label it illegitimate "notfunatall without the propaganda"?
I think it's weird to consider something a failure for doing exactly what it's intended to do. But maybe that's just me . . .
As an African-American male, been running rpgs since '83.
Never saw Racism. Female players. African-American players. Whites. No problem.
So what the fk is this but SJW nonsense. All they want to do in true Maoist fashion is turn allies against each other and profit from the chaos.
Ignore and expose them. Please & thanks.
Quote from: Theory of Games;1121294As an African-American male, been running rpgs since '83.
Never saw Racism. Female players. African-American players. Whites. No problem.
So what the fk is this but SJW nonsense. All they want to do in true Maoist fashion is turn allies against each other and profit from the chaos.
Ignore and expose them. Please & thanks.
Well said. Would upvote.
Quote from: Theory of Games;1121294As an African-American male, been running rpgs since '83.
Never saw Racism.
Of course not! Nobody dares fuck with the DM! You wear the Viking Hat!
Quote from: Theory of Games;1121294As an African-American male, been running rpgs since '83.
Never saw Racism. Female players. African-American players. Whites. No problem.
So what the fk is this but SJW nonsense. All they want to do in true Maoist fashion is turn allies against each other and profit from the chaos.
Ignore and expose them. Please & thanks.
What...I was told black people weren't allowed to play RPGs. Citation needed!
Quote from: Theory of Games;1121294As an African-American male, been running rpgs since '83.
Never saw Racism. Female players. African-American players. Whites. No problem.
So what the fk is this but SJW nonsense. All they want to do in true Maoist fashion is turn allies against each other and profit from the chaos.
Ignore and expose them. Please & thanks.
Now let me interject with a standard danger-hair response to this:
"Well OK, and that's so great for you! But you know, just because racism never happened to YOU at the table doesn't mean it didn't happen to anyone else! People of all sorts have been systematically marginalized by white males gatekeeping RPGs for years! I have dozens if not hundreds of friends who are gay, trans, or minorities who have tons of horror stories! Well no of course I won't tell you any of their names or stories, that's private, pretty rude to ask. But lots involve rape and racial slurs. Can you believe most gamers in the 80's wore blackface to the table? Source is Vice. Anyway, no it's not anecdotal, just look how many I've heard about versus your singular personal experience as an actual member of one of those demographics! Anyway, as a white male let me be the first to say 'you're welcome' for being your ally and helping lift you out of your oppressed state which you have been too helpless to amend or address yourself. I'm glad I could correct you on your personal firsthand experience and let you know the way things REALLY are for you and all other oppressed peoples. Truly we are so happy to invite you into the hobby! Damn those cishet whities telling what you can and can't do or say! Never let them dictate who you are! Keep up the fight!"
Quote from: Antiquation!;1121327Now let me interject with a standard danger-hair response to this:
"Well OK, and that's so great for you! But you know, just because racism never happened to YOU at the table doesn't mean it didn't happen to anyone else! People of all sorts have been systematically marginalized by white males gatekeeping RPGs for years! I have dozens if not hundreds of friends who are gay, trans, or minorities who have tons of horror stories! Well no of course I won't tell you any of their names or stories, that's private, pretty rude to ask. But lots involve rape and racial slurs. Can you believe most gamers in the 80's wore blackface to the table? Source is Vice. Anyway, no it's not anecdotal, just look how many I've heard about versus your singular personal experience as an actual member of one of those demographics! Anyway, as a white male let me be the first to say 'you're welcome' for being your ally and helping lift you out of your oppressed state which you have been too helpless to amend or address yourself. I'm glad I could correct you on your personal firsthand experience and let you know the way things REALLY are for you and all other oppressed peoples. Truly we are so happy to invite you into the hobby! Damn those cishet whities telling what you can and can't do or say! Never let them dictate who you are! Keep up the fight!"
Beautiful. Well played, sir.:D
I think a big part of this stuff is narcissism. If my friends and I back in 1985 were pretending to kill dragons because we thought it was fun, and not because we were scheming to exclude some random strangers we'd never met, then that implies that there are things happening somewhere in the world that are
not about you! To a narcissist, that thought is intolerable. Better to believe that the entire world is in a conspiracy against you than to face the possibility that the vast majority of the world goes about its business without thinking of you at all.
The blathering of racism has a particularly pathetic ring to me because of how I got into RPGs.
Namely, the Basic redbox set, and a neighborhood friend of Indian (dot, not feather) descent.
I miss that guy. Wherever he's gone, I wish him well.
Quote from: Dimitrios;1121330Beautiful. Well played, sir.:D
I think a big part of this stuff is narcissism. If my friends and I back in 1985 were pretending to kill dragons because we thought it was fun, and not because we were scheming to exclude some random strangers we'd never met, then that implies that there are things happening somewhere in the world that are not about you! To a narcissist, that thought is intolerable. Better to believe that the entire world is in a conspiracy against you than to face the possibility that the vast majority of the world goes about its business without thinking of you at all.
I totally agree, and to my mind it goes hand-in-hand with that nice little piece of commentary you had linked to in the Knitting Purity thread (https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/02/05/open-thread-146-75/#comment-849490). It's a perfect combination of factors to create breeding grounds for this brand of malignant narcissism, and RPGs make a perfect 'fallback community' (not that roleplaying has ever been one giant homogenous "community," but that's how these types see it; otherwise we couldn't collectively gatekeep them!) for them to retreat to and incubate within; these little cysts of self-importance and megalomania that help them simultaneously spread their puerile fantasies to convert and control anyone they can (thereby protecting them from the outside reality they perceive as being "against them"), but also devolving them into the cancerous tumors that eventually devour themselves in a series of delusional, paranoid crusades.
Here's the thing, these people are selling something; in this case they're selling a reason that they need to be the moral gatekeepers of this particular community. In order to sell a thing, you need a reason for people to buy. If a legitimate reason doesn't exist, you have to create one. So EVIL NAZIS ARE RUNNING GAMING. We all hate (insert sex/race/religion/whatever) because we've been going as long as we have without the guidance of our benevolent new overlords, who would have definitely put a stop to our hate to make it safe for (insert group). The fact that this scenario bears no resemblance to reality is hardly a problem, because the people signal-boosting them in various websites and social medias aren't gamers and don't have the first idea that they're full of shit.
Quote from: Antiquation!;1121327Can you believe most gamers in the 80's wore blackface to the table?
It's true! Trudeau was my GM!
Every Friday night was pizza, D&D and greasepaint!
Quote from: Antiquation!;1121327Anyway, as a white male let me be the first to say 'you're welcome' for being your ally and helping lift you out of your oppressed state which you have been too helpless to amend or address yourself. I'm glad I could correct you on your personal firsthand experience and let you know the way things REALLY are for you and all other oppressed peoples.
1. Way too accurate!
2. #Walkaway
3. White Knights are the absolute worst of the SJW scum.
Quote from: Valatar;1121355Here's the thing, these people are selling something; in this case they're selling a reason that they need to be the moral gatekeepers of this particular community. In order to sell a thing, you need a reason for people to buy. If a legitimate reason doesn't exist, you have to create one. So EVIL NAZIS ARE RUNNING GAMING. We all hate (insert sex/race/religion/whatever) because we've been going as long as we have without the guidance of our benevolent new overlords, who would have definitely put a stop to our hate to make it safe for (insert group).
Yeah, I don't buy this sort of moral panic bullshit.
I buy games on the basis of what I think will be fun for me and my friends to play, not on the basis of the author's moral purity.
Quote from: Antiquation!;1121327Now let me interject with a standard danger-hair response to this:
"Well OK, and that's so great for you! But you know, just because racism never happened to YOU at the table doesn't mean it didn't happen to anyone else! People of all sorts have been systematically marginalized by white males gatekeeping RPGs for years! I have dozens if not hundreds of friends who are gay, trans, or minorities who have tons of horror stories!
Sadly one of my players spouts exactly this sort of line as proof that SJWing is good and right and that their claims are valid and true.
Quote from: jhkim;1121378Yeah, I don't buy this sort of moral panic bullshit.
I buy games on the basis of what I think will be fun for me and my friends to play, not on the basis of the author's moral purity.
And often at the root of these panics. Someone IS selling something. Be it a book, a game, or whatever. And if not that then its a weapon to oust competition. Sometimes both. And if it isnt for money then its to leverage control over something.
RPG companies have used it, Video game companies have used it. And I've seen first hand how it was used in the art and indie comic circles.
And the eventual pushback tends to escalate each iteration.
Ever wonder why theres so much over the top art now? Its all ha-ha funny to attack and accuse someone of this or that. That is till these scum accuse someone who can was doing nothing wrong at all and that someone can actually do something about it And that someone gets fed up and shows these moral guardians what real outrage material is. I had a stint of this many a year ago myself when I was attacked for doing some totally G rated art. Oh you want to see sadistic huh? Sadly thats the story of several other artists as well.
We are starting to see this creep into games as well little my little as pushback increases.
Quote from: Omega;1121389Sadly one of my players spouts exactly this sort of line as proof that SJWing is good and right and that their claims are valid and true.
repeat that crap word for word back to them except swap out white males with jewish communists and see if the little shit finds it just as palatable. i bet not. if this doesnt demonstrate their folly to them you could try beating them with a large rubberized phallus available from most any adult store. if that still doesn't work make an effort to remind them that it didnt and limit all your speech to them strictly to that "hey remember that time you got beat silly with a rubber dong? man that was intersectional as fuck yo"
My latest Youtube Video (https://youtu.be/bsuUUo1vW3Q) brought up this article.
Quote from: Slipshot762;1121441... you could try beating them with a large rubberized phallus...
I recommend using a Bad Dragon® (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Dragon) dildo.
It seems fitting and thematic.
Don't click the link at work. Not directly NSFW, but still.