Quote from: jhkimI prefer to deal use real cases rather than over-the-top hypotheticals. For example, I wouldn't buy an RPG from Varg Vikernes -- a convicted murderer and white supremacist as well as RPG author. But that's an extreme case, and that's true regardless of whether there was preachy text from him in the product. Within nearly all other published RPGs, I don't care about the author's politics.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121081So it's not "everything is political" but there are true legitimate political reasons not to buy from Varg. I wouldn't buy from him or for his mirror image on the other side, people that go for the intersectional/purity test/SocJus angle. Even if it wasn't in their game. Because at the end they are only the mirror image of the white supremacists.

Can you clarify examples of who you think would qualify as the mirror image of Vikernes? My view would be that just going for a social justice angle doesn't make someone the mirror image of a convicted murderer like Vikernes.

Quote from: jhkimI don't know of any games that would truly be nothing but political propaganda. If you would care to cite actual examples, I'd like to hear them -- but it sounds like an over-the-top claim. There are some games with blatant political themes - like the The Price of Freedom RPG. However, I don't have any problem buying or playing The Price of Freedom. I've been considering running that.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1121081Not gonna go buy something just to give you a blow by blow, but feel free to google #Feminism the rpg for but one example. There are others less obvious but just as guilty of propaganda.

I have the #Feminism collection. I'd agree that it's overtly political -- but at least some of the games in the anthology are fun to play. I ran "You've Come a Long Way, Baby" by Julia Ellingboe at AmberCon Northwest 2016. It was a fun story game. We played out scenes from an over-the-top action movie (with the reverse of typical genders) along with playing behind-the-scenes of the actors who were filming the movie. I had a blast playing it with the five players I had at ACNW. I felt it was no more and no less political than playing Macho Women With Guns, which is another campy fun game I've enjoyed. I wasn't particularly taken by the anthology as a whole, but I was curious enough to pick it up.

It seems to me that playing out The Price of Freedom would be similar, with an opposite take.

Quote from: jhkim;1121102Can you clarify examples of who you think would qualify as the mirror image of Vikernes? My view would be that just going for a social justice angle doesn't make someone the mirror image of a convicted murderer like Vikernes.




I have the #Feminism collection. I'd agree that it's overtly political -- but at least some of the games in the anthology are fun to play. I ran "You've Come a Long Way, Baby" by Julia Ellingboe at AmberCon Northwest 2016. It was a fun story game. We played out scenes from an over-the-top action movie (with the reverse of typical genders) along with playing behind-the-scenes of the actors who were filming the movie. I had a blast playing it with the five players I had at ACNW. I felt it was no more and no less political than playing Macho Women With Guns, which is another campy fun game I've enjoyed. I wasn't particularly taken by the anthology as a whole, but I was curious enough to pick it up.

It seems to me that playing out The Price of Freedom would be similar, with an opposite take.

LOL, so you need to latch on only the convicted murderer bit? You're disingenuous. A convicted murderer is not always just as bad as a racist, and since white supremacists often want to get rid of other races, oppress gays, women, etc and SocJus advocates to get rid (or at least oppress) white people, men, straights, etc. the mirror reflection of one another.

I thought you'd have such a "game" collection and had liked it.

Quote from: jhkim;1121102It seems to me that playing out The Price of Freedom would be similar, with an opposite take.

We played this once, and it went about as exactly you'd expect from a bunch of 13 year old boys...WOLVERINES!

Quote from: jhkimIt seems to me that playing out The Price of Freedom would be similar, with an opposite take.

Quote from: Brad;1121108We played this once, and it went about as exactly you'd expect from a bunch of 13 year old boys...WOLVERINES!

Heh! Sounds like fun.

I'll see about running it some time.

Quote from: Brad;1121108We played this once, and it went about as exactly you'd expect from a bunch of 13 year old boys...WOLVERINES!

Then you played the game As Intended.

Quote from: jhkim;1121076I don't know of any games that would truly be nothing but political propaganda.

The free amateur RPG DragonRaid was explicitly written as a tool of Christian evangelism; players had to quote Bible verses in order for their PCs to pull off in-game miracles.  On a considerably scuzzier note, everybody remembers RaHoWa, which fortunately for its supposed social-harm quotient would have been a genuinely terrible game even if all its racist elements had been "filed off" and replaced.

The Last Exodus was an explicitly anti-religious satire of a game that I personally chose not to purchase on that basis. I'm told by others who did, however, that it had serious production value problems completely aside from any philosophical objections, so it too may have been an inadvertent example, not of "Get Woke, Go Broke", but, um, I don't know ... "Games Which Preach Make Players Screech", maybe?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1121061I'm only going by Matt's public statement, which whaddayaknow they deleted.

But the internet never forgets.

Thank you. He issued an apology, but it still looks like no charges have been filed. Just accusations.

Quote from: jhkimI don't know of any games that would truly be nothing but political propaganda.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1121112The free amateur RPG DragonRaid was explicitly written as a tool of Christian evangelism; players had to quote Bible verses in order for their PCs to pull off in-game miracles.  On a considerably scuzzier note, everybody remembers RaHoWa, which fortunately for its supposed social-harm quotient would have been a genuinely terrible game even if all its racist elements had been "filed off" and replaced.

The Last Exodus was an explicitly anti-religious satire of a game that I personally chose not to purchase on that basis. I'm told by others who did, however, that it had serious production value problems completely aside from any philosophical objections, so it too may have been an inadvertent example, not of "Get Woke, Go Broke", but, um, I don't know ... "Games Which Preach Make Players Screech", maybe?

I've heard of Dragonraid but haven't actually seen a copy. My question would be: do Bible study students actually have fun playing it? If so, then it's a fun game for them. Even if I don't share their taste in games, I don't have any problem with them playing it.

I have looked over RaHoWa (short for "Racial Holy War"). On reflection, I'll buy that it's nothing but propaganda. As far as I can tell from reading, the content was just cobbled together - and it is a terrible game as you say. I don't think that white supremacists are having fun playing the game. Instead, it was just published for show.

But #Feminism or The Price of Freedom aren't like that. They're a niche market, but at least some people have fun playing them.

Quote from: jhkim;1121123#Feminism or The Price of Freedom aren't like that. They're a niche market, but at least some people have fun playing them.

I think for me the litmus test of whether a game's propaganda quotient has exceeded its entertainment quotient is whether the gratification of the propaganda is literally the only thing that makes the game enjoyable; in other words, if someone who doesn't share the game's advocated positions isn't going to enjoy it at all, it's no longer a legitimate game.  (Note that this isn't the same thing as sharing the setting's required assumptions. If you don't buy Lovecraft's nihilism you won't enjoy Call of Cthulhu the same way a purist cosmic horror fan might, but nothing in CoC urges players to adopt those assumptions as truth outside the game.)

The Price of Freedom sounds like it could at least do a decent technothriller adventure either way; by contrast, I suspect somebody who had nothing against Christianity but no interest in it would only find DragonRaid fairly boring pretty quickly, or at the very least that it didn't do anything other fantasy games didn't do better.

Quote from: jhkim#Feminism or The Price of Freedom aren't like that. They're a niche market, but at least some people have fun playing them.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1121126I think for me the litmus test of whether a game's propaganda quotient has exceeded its entertainment quotient is whether the gratification of the propaganda is literally the only thing that makes the game enjoyable; in other words, if someone who doesn't share the game's advocated positions isn't going to enjoy it at all, it's no longer a legitimate game.

This calls for some armchair psychologizing of people's motives for play. If a bunch of Bible study students enjoy playing Dragonraid, I don't think it's my place to say that it isn't a legitimate game. Why and how they enjoy it is their own business.

I think there's a common trend in Internet of saying that how those other people play is badwrongfun, and even if they enjoy playing their game, it isn't a legitimate game - because they're enjoying it for the wrong reasons / or it isn't a real RPG / or some other excuse.

Note that I don't object to actual psychological study of people playing RPGs -- by psychologists who are really there to learn. But I think the armchair psychologizing to call games "illegitimate" or "badwrongfun" isn't actually informed at all. Personally, I don't see any point in calling games "illegitimate" or "badwrongfun".

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;1121061Yes they missed the point, and immediately jumped to questioning my tribal affiliations.

And that, my friends, is THE problem on the internet. That's why we can't have nice things. That's why we can't have rational discussions about important issues.

And it's as bad here as everywhere else.

I misread your post, and for that I apologize  - I definitely did not intend to coarsen the discourse.

Quote from: jhkim;1121060You are free to buy products on whatever basis you like. Personally, I don't buy into the "everything is political" line -- such that where you buy your burgers should be decided on the basis of the politics of the burger chain. I use my political vote and voice to support a free society with strong rights -- so even if a burger chain gets money, they can't do criminal acts or have undue power over people's lives.

You don't have to buy into everything is political for everything to be political.

Money is a form of speech, specifically an expression of support. Whether or not you want it to be. Chik-fil-A was an openly Christian business, so those who intentionally supported it or intentionally refused to eat there understood their clear motives.

But every time a person buys from Big Chain vs. Local Mom & Pop or vice versa, they are voting either for Big Corp or for Local Biz, regardless if they ever think about their action. Just like how individual votes do not decide elections, but mass votes certainly do, that's the same dynamic with dollars. Nationalism vs. Globalism and Main Street vs. Wall Street are political fights as each represents an ideology.

And political voting doesn't stop companies from having undue power in our lives. AKA, media, social media, high tech, etc.

Quote from: jhkim;1121130This calls for some armchair psychologizing of people's motives for play. If a bunch of Bible study students enjoy playing Dragonraid, I don't think it's my place to say that it isn't a legitimate game. Why and how they enjoy it is their own business.

This is a game I used to see come up in discussion every now and then back in the day, though this is the first mention of it I've seen in quite a few years. I remember looking into it, tracking down reviews, etc. and I found out that it was always intended as a teaching tool first, and an RPG second. The authors were very upfront about that. It was never meant to be a game that would have a lot of mass appeal. It was meant to help people who were already Christians and who would presumably consider the Bible worth learning to do so in a hopefully fun way. And even then I seriously doubt they expected it to appeal to all Christians. From what I read, the actual game elements were serviceable enough. But of course it's going to fall flat for any group without that buy-in.

On the subject of games with an agenda, kinda. There is Redemption. The Christian CCG. Its funded and produced by a Christian group and has been in print in various iterations for a long time now. Probably still is. The group that funded it also owned, or still own, a little chain of Christian merchandise stores and they usually had it on the shelves. There was one local here but not sure if its still around.

The interesting part was, it was pretty inoffensive for one of these projects. Dont know if that changed later. But the original game did not take pot-shots at anyone and stuck pretty well to its theme rather than derailing itself as some sort of attack platform. Which is the failing of about 90% of the other agenda games out there.

Meanwhile on Reddit r/KotakuInAction has been tearing Fate of Cthulhu to pieces. I've never seen so many threads created over a single RPG product before. Sadly some are now attacking the premise rather than the politics and losing sight of the issue.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1121095I think it's important to point out that Fate of Cthulhu doesn't have a paragraph in the intro describing H.P. Lovecraft's racism.
They have a sentence in the intro declaring that H.P. Lovecraft was a racist, and then a page justifying using the works of a racist as the basis of their RPG book.

That's the bit which really gets me.

It wasn't enough to point out racism, they had to justify their actions to the entire world. And when people didn't accept those justifications they doubled down and have been justifying themselves ever since.

Quote from: jeff37923;1121113Thank you. He issued an apology, but it still looks like no charges have been filed. Just accusations.

I think you might want to reread his statement, especially the part where he obfuscates things by admitting guilt, but not for what. And consider the fact he deleted it, which means it's no longer indexed and the comment history is lost.

Quote from: steelshadow;1121133I misread your post, and for that I apologize  - I definitely did not intend to coarsen the discourse.

Quote from: Ghostmaker;1121097I apologize, Anon. I was being a smartass. I've met Larry a couple times at convention, and he's always struck me as a decent sort.

Apologies accepted, but I also don't want to discourage anyone from being a smartass.