Erik, I don't know if I'm projecting but your post focuses on exactly the thing I dislike most about DitV, while possibly explaining why a lot of people like it.

Yes, if you're a GM who enjoys putting players in moral dilemmas and watching them squirm, DitV is the game for you.

Yes, if you're a player who enjoys zeroing in on the bad guy and terminating him, DitV is the game for you.

If you're a player who finds GMs that cook up moral dilemmas, just to watch you squirm, to be egoistical, smarmy sadists--DitV isn't for you at all.

Or to put it a little less polemically, if Dancey's right and most players don't care what goes on behind the curtain, as it were, then DitV is great for them, and the GM can have a ball experimenting on them instead of being bored leading them through an adventure whose outcome is pre-established.

Ah, I don't think it is so bad - the DnD equivalent is probably something like

DnD - GMs - Fiendish Traps! Cunning Ambushes! - Players - Victory and Treasure!

I mean, going in to a dark, trapped complex brimming with hostile monsters could come out as a horror movie like Cube, but it mostly doesn't.

Right? You meet somewhere in the middle?

Could be. I just find, between the GMing advice and sample towns in the book, AP reports, and a little play I've done, DitV play seems to focus pretty severely on situations that smack of the types of sadistic hypothetical moral dilemmas we used to pose for each other in grade school. It's not very hard to think up explosive lose-lose situations if you don't trouble yourself too much about human nature, but as soon as you begin to critique the context of the problem, or the obstacles to resolving it in a non-explosive fashion, the heavy hand of the GM/scenario writer becomes all too apparent. And frankly I don't find the fantasy of sitting in judgment of other people very attractive.

But the book emphasizes how players will surprise the GM by seeing GM-planned "villains" where the GM hadn't predetermined the right side of a conflict. This suggests to me that the game works well as a kind of Rorschach Test for players who've been conditioned to follow module-type plotlines--they may not realize it but they get to pick the "villain" who appeals to them the most--while as I said above, the GM gets the fun of not knowing which way the players will swing. However a player who doesn't instinctively follow the GM's lead is more likely to question the premise of the moral conundrum (depending how artificial it seems).

The dungeon of course is equally artificial--so we may be talking about a matter of interest (in challenge vs. moral dilemma) as opposed to conditioning--but a dungeon to me is a fixed challenge: once you take it on, you can depend on your wits & luck to see you through, or not. While an intractable moral conundrum lying at the heart of a town's problems is like one of those silly grade-school riddles that I rapidly tired of. I can pick one answer or another, but it doesn't really matter.

Could be I just haven't seen the game approached in a fashion that I'd like...but given that the GM I've played with has gotten very positive reviews from other players, I think that'd probably be pretty far outside the mainstream of how the game is played.

Oh, hey, Erik, rather than continuing to derail this thread (besides I think I've pretty much had my say, right or wrong), I want to acknowledge the clever thing you've done showing the different attractions various games offer to players and GMs. It's an interesting way of analyzing things...not least because the player side varies a lot less than the GM side. So maybe the problem with some games (or how they get played) is when the GM tries too hard to make the players aware of the "GM side" instead of just letting them keep merrily blasting away.

Essentially this suggests that if Dancey is right, everybody should design their game so that it looks like D&D to the players, but offers a new experience to the GM.

QuoteAnd frankly I don't find the fantasy of sitting in judgment of other people very attractive.

Yanno, I think you probably just nailed down to a tee why the game is so popular with the Forge . . .

Those moral dillemmata aren´t even designed as a proper challenge to the mind, or even to be believable. They are just pulled from the ass.

Quote from: mythusmageCombat and treasure is no substitute for an interesting experience.

Eight million unique subscriptions to World of Warcraft says that you're wrong.

Yeah, I must admit that DitV has never interested me in the least.  The whole moral dilemma thing strikes me as dull and I'm not sure I actually like the tone of his games.  They always seem to be about making people think about their actions.

Seriously dude... fuck you and your morals.

Quote from: Erik BoielleNah - we are in the realm of sales here - its not about what is fun, its about what appeals to people enough to get them to do it.

If you don't offer combat and treasure, or equivalent, and something to engage the GMs worldbuilding fetish, then the game doesn't get off the shelf.

Dog in the Vineyard - GM - Fantastic! Moral Dilemas! - Players - Wait! Did you say Witch Burning?

A solid experience is necesscary for success as well, naturally, but combining player appeal, GM appeal and fun gaming in one package is the Way of the Future!

What fun? When did I mention, fun? I said interesting. Interesting doesn't have to be, fun.

Provide an interesting, an intriguing experience. Provide an experience that keeps the players coming back. Combat and treasure alone can't do that. Rote slaughter and generic holy swords become tedious and trite. What makes a fight interesting and a wand mysterious is presentation. How do you present the scuffle, describe the wood paste and sequined amulet? Get the players interested in the settings and you'll find fights and treasure will go further than they ever had before.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerEight million unique subscriptions to World of Warcraft says that you're wrong.

Never bring a computer game to an RPG discussion.

"The dripping further back has progressed to a stream. The water around your feet is higher, the flow stronger. Your feet are getting cold as the water seeps in through boots and socks.

"The goblins up ahead smile predatory smiles, and their chief tells you, 'Who shall be slave, and who shall be provender? Decide quick, lest all come to stock the larder.'"

The ability for a GM to ramble on does not a great difference make.

A picture is worth a thousand words.  I could make quite a story out of some of WoW's dungeons.  The climax of Molten Core alone is a pretty damn cool scene really, would serve well in prose.

WoW has succeeded by offering the baseline D&D experience (kill stuff, get cool loot, adventure with your friends, see neat places in a fantasy world), and making them easily available with no prep time 24 hours a day 7 days a week (except for server maintenence Tuesday morning).

That you have your head in the sand and fail to recognize the importance of the complex relationships between CRPGS, MMORPGS, and TRPGS, does not mean the subject is somehow unimportant in conversation.

Quote from: mythusmage"The goblins up ahead smile predatory smiles, and their chief tells you, 'Who shall be slave, and who shall be provender? Decide quick, lest all come to stock the larder.'"

But really, how often do GMs ad-lib something like that?  You might get that in the read-aloud text found in pre-published adventures, but generally not from improv.

If you've got recorded (.mp3) examples to the contrary, I'd genuinely like to hear them!

Quote from: StuartBut really, how often do GMs ad-lib something like that?  You might get that in the read-aloud text found in pre-published adventures, but generally not from improv.

If you've got recorded (.mp3) examples to the contrary, I'd genuinely like to hear them!

Not often enough. First, because it's just not done. Second, because they don't  practice enough. The meme is, say just what's necessary, and do it in a monotone. Heaven forbid you actually get the players excited.

No emotions please, we're Americans.

Quote from: mythusmageNot often enough. First, because it's just not done. Second, because they don't  practice enough. The meme is, say just what's necessary, and do it in a monotone. Heaven forbid you actually get the players excited.

No emotions please, we're Americans.

It's worse than that.

"No, I don't.  My elemental protections mean that I don't feel cold at all.  Now quit wasting time with the fluff text shit and get on with the damned game!"

Or, just as often...

"So that means what in game terms?  Nothing?  Fuck that noise.  Get on with it already!"

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker"No, I don't.  My elemental protections mean that I don't feel cold at all.  Now quit wasting time with the fluff text shit and get on with the damned game!"

"That's the thing, you can still feel the cold pricking at your skin. And you can feel the crackling of an elemental protection on the verge of failure. It's not a natural cold."

Whereto the second response...

"It means -4 to your spot rolls as your brain is sort of numbed by the cold. It also means -4 on initiative and combat because of the shivering. If you don't do something to warm up you'll have a -6 penalty within a half-hour.

"Did I mention it's not a natural cold?"