I generally use things other than cost to indicate changing economic conditions. Yes, it's realistic to change the prices of goods, but in practice it is hard to make a player price-sensitive. Players are much more sensitive for time spent at the table.

So, what I tend to do instead is make certain products only available via sidequest. It doesn't have to be much of a sidequest, but you need to consume 5-10 minutes of table time or fit into the plot of the campaign. Typically, I'll have a metagame discussion with the players to ask them what they intend to do with their characters to see what kind of sidequests or sidequest rewards PCs will shoot for before writing the sidequest up.

Quote from: Fheredin on May 19, 2023, 07:34:43 AM
I generally use things other than cost to indicate changing economic conditions. Yes, it's realistic to change the prices of goods, but in practice it is hard to make a player price-sensitive. Players are much more sensitive for time spent at the table.

So, what I tend to do instead is make certain products only available via sidequest. It doesn't have to be much of a sidequest, but you need to consume 5-10 minutes of table time or fit into the plot of the campaign. Typically, I'll have a metagame discussion with the players to ask them what they intend to do with their characters to see what kind of sidequests or sidequest rewards PCs will shoot for before writing the sidequest up.

This right here!  Generally, players just want to know if they can get some item.  Cost is usually irrelevant outside of "costs way more than I have" and "Cost less than I have, so I buy it."  Without maintenance costs, money really is only a matter of availability... so a mechanism based on availability works well.

Quote from: Fheredin on May 19, 2023, 07:34:43 AM
I generally use things other than cost to indicate changing economic conditions. Yes, it's realistic to change the prices of goods, but in practice it is hard to make a player price-sensitive. Players are much more sensitive for time spent at the table.

So, what I tend to do instead is make certain products only available via sidequest. It doesn't have to be much of a sidequest, but you need to consume 5-10 minutes of table time or fit into the plot of the campaign. Typically, I'll have a metagame discussion with the players to ask them what they intend to do with their characters to see what kind of sidequests or sidequest rewards PCs will shoot for before writing the sidequest up.

Greetings!

I think that is a salient idea, Fheredin! That way, you deal with specially desired items, and don't have to deal with loads of mundane details that the Players are relatively only nominally interested in.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The old game Bushido has a little chart hidden away



In this chart, the first number is the percentage chance of finding an item and the second number is the percentage price multiple (so 200 is x2). The chart compares the size of the location with the class of good with Class A goods being things like plate armor and well-made swords whereas Class D items are things like crops, livestock, straw hats, etc.

Now I know that this isn't exactly what was talked about in the original post, but a similar chart could be used to customize equipment lists through some simple rules (simple enough to be programmed into Excel for example) thus making it possible to have unique equipment lists for each city or town in the campaign world. The secret would be to classify certain items on the scale and then as you move regions increase the items up by one class. So a spicy meal might be Class D in it's home region, Class C one region over, and even considered a Class A good across the continent (so, only available in the most cosmopolitan of cities and more expensive).

Yes, those charts made things much easier.

Traveller uses a Tech Level (TL) rating for goods and there's an offset cost for items being sold at a given location's TL vs the item's TL.  This works well.  With this as an inspiration, I propose a system that would be easy to use on the fly and keep record keeping to a minimum.

Give each item three identifier codes: Tech Level (TL), Volume Level (VL), Prestige Level (PL).  Tech level is obviously the level of expertise needed to make an item.  Volume level is about how mass produced they are or how many are in stock, the higher the number the lover the volume.  Prestige level would be how exclusive the clientele would be to purchase an item, as in either the wealthy or a special tool for a particular trade.  For now we'll work with a base 10 system for clarity and proof of concept.

Fantasy setting example:  A spear would be TL:4  VL:4  PL:2
Spears aren't exactly a high end concept but I'd imagine a decent amount of skill would be needed to produce a true field grade weapon.  Spears are a high volume weapon but perhaps not as high as a knife and even less so than a broom.  Finally, I would see it as a peasant's weapon but not likely to be had by a pauper.

Now all you have to do is apply these stats to the location.  TL for the skills of the locals, VL for the amount of things they make (think just for locals or do they export) and finally PL for over all economic viability of the locale.

If the identifier for the item is higher that the location's then multiply the difference by 10% of the price and add that to the price.  Do the inverse if the item's identifiers are lower.

Now to make this dynamic, all you have to do is modify a identifier up or down based on what's going on.  If there's an item that's all of a sudden in demand, then jack up the VL.  If a location is seeing a lot of new traffic and seeing more goods brought in, then the PL can go up.

You can use less or more identifiers to suit your game and you could use different scales or multipliers as you see needed.

Finally, you can put special circumstances in place.  A master saddle maker teaching a bunch of apprentices in a town might make saddles cheaper but not effect the rest of availability.

Edit: spelling >_<

Quote from: BadApple on June 14, 2023, 05:09:36 PM
Traveller uses a Tech Level (TL) rating for goods and there's an offset cost for items being sold at a given location's TL vs the item's TL.  This works well.  With this as an inspiration, I propose a system that would be easy to use on the fly and keep record keeping to a minimum.

Give each item three identifier codes: Tech Level (TL), Volume Level (VL), Prestige Level (PL).  Tech level is obviously the level of expertise needed to make an item.  Volume level is about how mass produced they are or how many are in stock, the higher the number the lover the volume.  Prestige level would be how exclusive the clientele would be to purchase an item, as in either the wealthy or a special tool for a particular trade.  For now we'll work with a base 10 system for clarity and proof of concept.

Fantasy setting example:  A spear would be TL:4  VL:4  PL:2
Spears aren't exactly a high end concept but I'd imagine a decent amount of skill would be needed to produce a true field grade weapon.  Spears are a high volume weapon but perhaps not as high as a knife and even less so than a broom.  Finally, I would see it as a peasant's weapon but not likely to be had by a pauper.

Now all you have to do is apply these stats to the location.  TL for the skills of the locals, VL for the amount of things they make (think just for locals or do they export) and finally PL for over all economic viability of the locale.

If the identifier for the item is higher that the location's then multiply the difference by 10% of the price and add that to the price.  Do the inverse if the item's identifiers are lower.

Now to make this dynamic, all you have to do is modify a identifier up or down based on what's going on.  If there's an item that's all of a sudden in demand, then jack up the VL.  If a location is seeing a lot of new traffic and seeing more goods brought in, then the PL can go up.

You can use less or more identifiers to suit your game and you could use different scales or multipliers as you see needed.

Finally, you can put special circumstances in place.  A master saddle maker teaching a bunch of apprentices in a town might make saddles cheaper but not effect the rest of availability.

Edit: spelling >_<

Very neat idea, you could use the modifiers to also reflect availability. Regardless of price, a magical sword is unlikely to be available in a typical small hamlet for any price.

To handle dynamism in an economy, I essentially have fixed price sheets for the common stuff people will be buying (like rations or whatever), but anything outside the core I use rarity levels. Each item rolls dice based on its rarity to determine its price for the next little while in the current location. Multiple dice are rolled to get the effect of the curve, so prices are semi-predictable but can sometimes vary a little or a lot in very rare cases. For example, a rare good or service might cost 6d10 gold pieces. Note that my method here might be a little difficult to manage with the way D&D does prices, so you'd need to figure out how your economy is intended to scale in the first place. 6d10 might be laughably low or way too high for your economy depending on how the world works, so it's just an example you would have to adapt.

I also have some rules for how much supply actually exists in a given location and how often it's expected to replenish certain goods. If the players actually buy everything up, I have rules for prices rising exponentially in response so you eventually are really paying  through the nose if you keep buying up all the ale in town as the last few holdouts start charging crazy prices. I don't currently have rules for the opposite situation, I just sort of handle it right now as GM and say that at some point the locale is no longer interested in buying more of a certain good or whatever. If they sell in bulk I just offer a bulk price and overall I think this works fine.

I'm also looking at adding up shortages/gluts of goods and services which can happen randomly from time to time in certain sectors of the economy, but I'm not done with that yet. It's a minor thing, not something I intend to have happen frequently and mostly just make it either really expensive or really cheap to work with certain types of equipment for a little while, maybe force the players to shift tactics a little.

Quote from: BadApple on June 14, 2023, 05:09:36 PM
Traveller uses a Tech Level (TL) rating for goods and there's an offset cost for items being sold at a given location's TL vs the item's TL.  This works well.  With this as an inspiration, I propose a system that would be easy to use on the fly and keep record keeping to a minimum.

Give each item three identifier codes: Tech Level (TL), Volume Level (VL), Prestige Level (PL).  Tech level is obviously the level of expertise needed to make an item.  Volume level is about how mass produced they are or how many are in stock, the higher the number the lover the volume.  Prestige level would be how exclusive the clientele would be to purchase an item, as in either the wealthy or a special tool for a particular trade.  For now we'll work with a base 10 system for clarity and proof of concept.

Fantasy setting example:  A spear would be TL:4  VL:4  PL:2
Spears aren't exactly a high end concept but I'd imagine a decent amount of skill would be needed to produce a true field grade weapon.  Spears are a high volume weapon but perhaps not as high as a knife and even less so than a broom.  Finally, I would see it as a peasant's weapon but not likely to be had by a pauper.

Now all you have to do is apply these stats to the location.  TL for the skills of the locals, VL for the amount of things they make (think just for locals or do they export) and finally PL for over all economic viability of the locale.

If the identifier for the item is higher that the location's then multiply the difference by 10% of the price and add that to the price.  Do the inverse if the item's identifiers are lower.

Now to make this dynamic, all you have to do is modify a identifier up or down based on what's going on.  If there's an item that's all of a sudden in demand, then jack up the VL.  If a location is seeing a lot of new traffic and seeing more goods brought in, then the PL can go up.

You can use less or more identifiers to suit your game and you could use different scales or multipliers as you see needed.

Finally, you can put special circumstances in place.  A master saddle maker teaching a bunch of apprentices in a town might make saddles cheaper but not effect the rest of availability.

Edit: spelling >_<

Greetings!

That is  very nice system you have there, BadApple!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 14, 2023, 12:01:40 PM
The old game Bushido has a little chart hidden away



In this chart, the first number is the percentage chance of finding an item and the second number is the percentage price multiple (so 200 is x2). The chart compares the size of the location with the class of good with Class A goods being things like plate armor and well-made swords whereas Class D items are things like crops, livestock, straw hats, etc.

Now I know that this isn't exactly what was talked about in the original post, but a similar chart could be used to customize equipment lists through some simple rules (simple enough to be programmed into Excel for example) thus making it possible to have unique equipment lists for each city or town in the campaign world. The secret would be to classify certain items on the scale and then as you move regions increase the items up by one class. So a spicy meal might be Class D in it's home region, Class C one region over, and even considered a Class A good across the continent (so, only available in the most cosmopolitan of cities and more expensive).

Greetings!

Damn, Hegehobbit! BUSHIDO, you say? That little chart there system can be very useful! I may have to actually incorporate that kind of table as part of my write ups for cities and towns! I especially like a quick, *Tailored* table that is dynamic, so that they can be figured for each major city, and that kind of thing. I love that, Hedgehobbit!

What the he else is in BUSHIDO?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK