Quote from: Opaopajr on September 22, 2021, 07:26:18 PM

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker on September 22, 2021, 01:18:19 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on September 22, 2021, 09:02:22 AM
You're fighting a "I'm on my downtime, gimme beer 'n pretzels" mentality. It has zero to do with mechanics of any sort. Instead it has everything to do with willingness to invest into the fictive setting, breathing its life and respecting its consequences.

Settings seem the same if you're just there to sling some dice and go "woohoo, crit!" Just like movies will seem the same if it's just some genre that glazes your eyes over and will likely nap through. Yes, I am calling out 'role play, not roll play' but I am not targeting any system's mechanics inducing this disregard. I am targeting the players' approaching attitude to the social gatherering.

Conceit Buy-In is critical. It really helps to clarify why people gather for the fun (and what's their flexibility to each other) to baseline a shareable experience. I personally do surveys to get the session zero conversation rolling for games that don't come with easy to assume premises (e.g. D&D dungeon crawls, Shadowrun mission, Pathfinder fanfic tours, I mean, Adventure Paths...).

Most players are Normies, and Normies will not--and have never--put in work for their entertainment. The terms are polar opposites to Normies. Accept this, adjust accordingly, and thrive. RPGs really are a lot easier to pitch, run, and enjoy when you cater to Normie sensibilities for entertainment by removing all expectation of them putting in work, either in learning the rules or the setting; if it's not directly and immediately relevant, they don't care and you can't make them- they'll bail for Netflix (or whatever) because they have endless alternatives if one doesn't satisfy their expectations.

Absolutely. I've met many a person, let alone gamers, who go into anaphylactic shock at the idea of reading or learning anything for their fun. If you are wanting to include this type of guest to your table you already understand it is you who will be bending to accomodate their fun.

There is nothing wrong curating your table to a different type of fun. I know it calls back to the Geek Fallacies, but there is truth to that old discussion. A lot of people who are socially... inexperienced?... assume everyone deemed my friend must be welded to the hip.

Which is something that maturity helps one grow out of. We are different people and are allowed to like different things -- that includes curating guests for a more like-minded, higher concept, gathering. You are not rejecting a friend from the in-group who cannot/will not relate to said event, instead you are delving deeper into each other's more specialized interests and giving breathing room to ripen friendships in ways away from you.

I know these are just words, but I hope it helps someone younger (or less adroit) out there to be bolder and more resilient in their socializing. It's OK and normal to have multiple circles, interconnected yet not the same.

Wondering out loud: how much of the real-world "circle of friends joined at the hip" mentality has been influenced by the RPG "adventuring party joined at the hip" mentality?

Another Normies-as-Gaming note: Normies see entertainment of all sorts as pastimes, not hobbies. Hobbies require work, which is not fun for Normies. Pastimes don't. They see entertainment, when done with others, as nothing more than a pretext for their real reason for getting together: socializing. They don't grill because they're outdoor food gourmets; they grill because it's an easy thing to do while shooting the shit with the others attending. Same with bowling, golf, Poker night, stitching circlers, afternoons or evenings watching Football (either kind).

Now put a complex and fiddly game in front them. Suddenly they have to focus their attention on the game and working the fiddly bits instead of talking about Randy Red and her adorable puppies. Ask them to do more than 3rd grade arithmetic and they fast approach their Quit Moment, and that's before all of the other things that compete with RPGs for their time and attention: increased work demands on their time, simpler and easier substitutes (especially if they can't get together as much), etc.

Yes, Performative Wokeness is just such a thing that works against Normies playing the game; WOTC (et. al.) trying their hardest to freeze out or black out non-Woke alternatives (primarily by keeping them out of media spaces Normies flock to) ramped up as awareness of this being a liability hit is tacit admission that this is real.

This is why, of all the alternatives out there, the one I use as a go-to is Basic Fantasy; free and legal in digital, Normie-friendly, and dirt-cheap in print while being available as the biggest Normie shopping option: Amazon. Normies don't balk at $5 for a paperback copy of a complete game, and a little over $10 for that, a monster book, and a ready-made adventure to run. They sure as Hell balk at what WOTC wants for the same thing. Simple, easy, cheap, and thus very Normie-friendly.

The rest is all meeting Normie expectations of gaming-as-casual-social-engagement.

Quote from: jhkim on September 22, 2021, 03:11:35 PM
... Learning all the details about a setting like Exalted means wading through a bunch of White Wolf writer text, which compares poorly to reading well-written novels like Lord of the Rings.

Most of my games use relatively popular or already well-known settings as a result.

Well known IP and Classic tropes just plain work.  'Original' does not = Quality, or "Better".

Popular and Relatable for the win.

Emphasis on the Relatable part.

There is a reason why these fantasy properties have broken through with normies.

Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, Conan, and The Witcher.  All very humancentric, and low(er) magic by comparison to the standard WOTC D&D setting.

I've played with people who push for fantastical setting elements because they think it adds something to the game... And when I finally managed to get grudging agreement to play in a more grounded 'vanilla' setting; It didn't change the way they played at all, but our GM had a much easier time integrating things during play.

Quote from: Opaopajr on September 22, 2021, 07:26:18 PM
I've met many a person, let alone gamers, who go into anaphylactic shock at the idea of reading or learning anything for their fun. If you are wanting to include this type of guest to your table you already understand it is you who will be bending to accomodate their fun.

There is nothing wrong curating your table to a different type of fun. I know it calls back to the Geek Fallacies, but there is truth to that old discussion. A lot of people who are socially... inexperienced?... assume everyone deemed my friend must be welded to the hip. But the truth is not everyone needs an invitation or should attend every event, and your friendship is not shattered by the absence.
...

There are two ways people approach playing and running RPGs.

1: RPGs for fun.

2: RPGs as a hobby.

For the first way: These are the casual players, the ones who won't learn anything beyond the game they were introduced to (generally D&D) and they view playing RPGs more of a social activity they are doing with friends. Like going out to mini-golf, or a theme park, but it just happens to be playing in an RPG group within their circle. They will not 'work' for their fun. This is the majority of the RPG player pool. Which is the main reason why there will always be a big GM to Player disparity.

For the second: These are the guys who like to homebrew, try out different systems, post on message boards, etc. Reading rules and writing homebrew material is not work because it is an enjoyable part of the hobby for them. They are also there to have fun and enjoy the social aspects of roleplaying, but they tend to prioritize participating in a good RPG group over a gaming group based on pure friendship. Like model trains, model building, or racing RC cars, playing and running RPGs is their hobby, not just another fun thing they can do.

Re Normies vs Hardcores (? hobbists), it occurred to me that my most engaged players are also GMs in other games, regardless of system. Now I'm wondering what would happen if I asked one of my Normie players to GM a one-shot. Make it super easy and help them with the rules. Might it convert them?

Quote from: rytrasmi on September 23, 2021, 04:21:27 PM
Re Normies vs Hardcores (? hobbists), it occurred to me that my most engaged players are also GMs in other games, regardless of system. Now I'm wondering what would happen if I asked one of my Normie players to GM a one-shot. Make it super easy and help them with the rules. Might it convert them?

  No.  You will give them a nervous breakdown.

 I am joking.  I agree though that players sometimes sort of take reading the books they own to learn how to play their character as a chore.

Quote from: oggsmash on September 23, 2021, 05:54:57 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on September 23, 2021, 04:21:27 PM
Re Normies vs Hardcores (? hobbists), it occurred to me that my most engaged players are also GMs in other games, regardless of system. Now I'm wondering what would happen if I asked one of my Normie players to GM a one-shot. Make it super easy and help them with the rules. Might it convert them?

  No.  You will give them a nervous breakdown.

This has been my experience MULTIPLE times.

When it happens I try to explain not to emulate me, just keep it simple - run a one-shot, and see where it goes. Do a module, a basic dungeoncrawl - use pre-gens. Don't even think of campaigning...

It has never worked longer than 3-to-5 sessions tops. And most of the time it's because they immediately bite off *way* more than they can chew because they've been playing in my campaigns. When I try to help - they get resentful about it. But I always tell them not to do what they think I'm doing.

And it's largely because when they see me GMing, I show up, turn on my laptop, organize my material - battle mats, screens when I feel sexy and mysterious, dice, notepad, pencil. Then it's on with the show.

What they don't see is the amount of time I spend in the evenings working on ideas for my own self-interest that I intend on using in the game longterm. Collating information from other sources and repurposing material. Working on gazeteers for locations we might one day visit if the game takes us there (usually they don't). Working on setpieces, statting up NPC's and making basic skeleton plot-point quests that could lead to larger things.

It's stuff I do because as a longtime GM it's important for me to know - even if it never comes up. But for Normies and new GM's most of this stuff would never cross their mind, because for them the game exists only as far as the module in front of them says so.

There is no box in the room that exists outside of what the flavor text says. There is no extemporaneous context to the world outside of the prescribed adventure. And thus, the Adventure Mindset is the training wheels for Normies and basic-level hobbyists to engage in TTRPG's.

This is why I'm a GM advocate - it takes a GM that *wants* to do this to raise the quality of the game beyond "running adventures". We need GMs. Adventures for my table are *always* happening even when nothing is apparently going on. There is ALWAYS something to do. You can have your PC walk around his room and I'll describe anything and everything they want to examine. They can open up every drawer in their room and I can tell you what's in it - and make it into a mystery that creates "adventure".

"Adventure" is making anything transcend the mundane and making the mundane interesting in context to the limit of your GMing bandwidth. That's the job of the GM to eke out the novelty of their setting in order to make it as real as it can be. To break out of the flavor-text box and let the world breathe.

Quote from: tenbones on September 23, 2021, 06:46:08 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 23, 2021, 05:54:57 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on September 23, 2021, 04:21:27 PM
Re Normies vs Hardcores (? hobbists), it occurred to me that my most engaged players are also GMs in other games, regardless of system. Now I'm wondering what would happen if I asked one of my Normie players to GM a one-shot. Make it super easy and help them with the rules. Might it convert them?

  No.  You will give them a nervous breakdown.

This has been my experience MULTIPLE times.

...

"Adventure" is making anything transcend the mundane and making the mundane interesting in context to the limit of your GMing bandwidth. That's the job of the GM to eke out the novelty of their setting in order to make it as real as it can be. To break out of the flavor-text box and let the world breathe.

All very true. A GM like that makes all the difference.

Though, I wasn't suggesting to mint fresh GMs. My comment was more about making better players. In your experience, did the taste of GMing make anyone a more engaged player?

Quote from: rytrasmi on September 23, 2021, 07:18:09 PM

Quote from: tenbones on September 23, 2021, 06:46:08 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on September 23, 2021, 05:54:57 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on September 23, 2021, 04:21:27 PM
Re Normies vs Hardcores (? hobbists), it occurred to me that my most engaged players are also GMs in other games, regardless of system. Now I'm wondering what would happen if I asked one of my Normie players to GM a one-shot. Make it super easy and help them with the rules. Might it convert them?

  No.  You will give them a nervous breakdown.

This has been my experience MULTIPLE times.

...

"Adventure" is making anything transcend the mundane and making the mundane interesting in context to the limit of your GMing bandwidth. That's the job of the GM to eke out the novelty of their setting in order to make it as real as it can be. To break out of the flavor-text box and let the world breathe.

All very true. A GM like that makes all the difference.

Though, I wasn't suggesting to mint fresh GMs. My comment was more about making better players. In your experience, did the taste of GMing make anyone a more engaged player?

I say overall - no. I do know it's made them respect, even fear, the GM chair.

But anyone that's in this hobby for the long run has to be a "special" kind of odd to GM for a length of time. I definitely believe it's a craft, and there is a mindset that you need to develop that only real creative people tend to have - an obsessiveness that goes beyond "hey lets play a game".

Let me give you an example - the Normies I know that try to GM are intensely fearful of what the others at the table "think" of their GMing skills. They're terrified of failing. They're scared of making mistakes. They're horrified that we'll think less of them.

They're so fearful it gets in the way of doing their job.

Veteran GM's - they know they're going to fail. They know mistakes will be made. They know there is always some new skill they can be working on to produce better results. They don't care about what their players think of them, because they're too focused on making the game as good as it can be. Everything else then falls into place - or not. Then it's time to figure out what went wrong and try not to make that mistake again next time.

This is true of most crafts which requires social input and feedback. I try to tell these new GM's not to worry about it. Just pick yourself up when you eat shit - and you *will* eat shit - dust yourself off, and get back in the GM saddle. That's how you get better. And so it goes.

Most Normies are dabblers in everything, which can be a good first step. But commitment is what is required in anything to become good at it. Even being player.

Which is an element of what we're really talking about here - level of commitment to playing your character and concept.