I hate minis, so abstract zone distances are a must. If the game mentions actual distance, I'll ignore it and just handwave it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;430020This is where WFRP3 falls on it's face.  Take a standard type of encounter - PC's in the center, bad guys all around in an ambush/bushwhack attack.  WFRP3's range system combines the worst of both systems.  It uses miniatures in play, has a set system for movement but that movement is between abstract zones, not any defined distance.  It's a useless mess.
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Not to say your playing it wrong but.....

The system works great.  The problem you are seeming to have, which is unfortunately a simple enough problem to have is that you are still trying to play the encounters out like a traditional mini-based setup.   While you can do that, it's not how it's really supposed to work.

The mini's are there to just show relevant ranges of groups of encounters.  Not to be spread out over a battle map.  If the monster is long range from the group it's at the long range grouping with every other opponent.  It's simple and elegant.  Where it does get messed up is if you are trying to run a tactical based game with miniatures and still working about range and specific ranges between every monster and variable positioning and all that crap.

You can do it, but it's far more complicated and servers little purpose when everything else in the game is more narrative and abstracted.  It's designed kind of around old school play of saying you are here the monsters are about there and it'll take you 2 rounds to get to them, 1 if you push it.

Quote from: Esgaldil;430033A good chase system, especially one that accomodates a wide range of transport modes, must include abstract ranges.  My favourite remains the James Bond RPG, and I keep trying to adapt it to whatever game I'm running.  It continues to amaze me how many games that should know better keep presenting chases as an afterthought to the combat system.

Totally agree and I also steal it for use with chases in any games I run.

I do agree where there are some circumstances that would demand more accurate range-coverage; they just come up so rarely for me that I don't see the point, really.

RPGPundit

I use this abstract way of determining range all the time.
In the past I used to determine range more accurately, but it always ended up being more hassle than it was worth in the end.

Quote from: kryyst;430244The mini's are there to just show relevant ranges of groups of encounters.  Not to be spread out over a battle map.

I guess narrative encounters means you'll never get ambushed along a road with 4 archers who aren't all travelling together. ;p

Archers ABCD, Melee 1234. 1234 are there to engage melee and cover archers, ABCD are there to pincushion the group/carriage/whatever.  Basic bandits not being idiots. (Had to include periods to get spacing to show up.)

A...............................................................B
1...............................................................2



----------------Party on Road------------------



3...............................................................4
C...............................................................D

If the party wants to spread out to attack the archers, then I have a myriad of relative range zones I have to freeball and keep track of with friggin counters instead of looking at a map and getting it right within a square or two.

I guess it comes down to whether you're playing a pulp version of Warhammer where Big Damn Heroes stomp the baddies or a gritty Warhammer where some tactics actually matter.  

WFRP3 has some cool aspects to it, but by and large it just makes me want to shout "KEEP YOUR FUCKING STORYGAMES OUT OF MY RPGS!"

Quote from: CRKrueger;430654I guess narrative encounters means you'll never get ambushed along a road with 4 archers who aren't all travelling together. ;p

Archers ABCD, Melee 1234. 1234 are there to engage melee and cover archers, ABCD are there to pincushion the group/carriage/whatever.  Basic bandits not being idiots. (Had to include periods to get spacing to show up.)

A...............................................................B
1...............................................................2



----------------Party on Road------------------



3...............................................................4
C...............................................................D

If the party wants to spread out to attack the archers, then I have a myriad of relative range zones I have to freeball and keep track of with friggin counters instead of looking at a map and getting it right within a square or two.

I guess it comes down to whether you're playing a pulp version of Warhammer where Big Damn Heroes stomp the baddies or a gritty Warhammer where some tactics actually matter.  

WFRP3 has some cool aspects to it, but by and large it just makes me want to shout "KEEP YOUR FUCKING STORYGAMES OUT OF MY RPGS!"

Yeah pretty standard - but just in doing that you've already setup your 4 encounter areas, 5 if you include some people probably battling it out in the middle.  The party is probably medium range from any of the 4 groups and from the looks of it each of the 4 groups is probably long or extreme range from each other.

Pretty simple.  To make it more interesting allow players and NPC's to gain bonus from cover in trees, using a cart for cover, the muddy terrain on the road hinders charges and makes dodging difficult.  Perhaps the archers have lined the sides of road with tar and set it ablaze the first moment the PC's charge.

There is so much more to tactics then figuring out how to move/shift on a battle grid to gain the maximum mount of ground and to avoid attacks of opportunity while using making sure you are 3 squares over to the left so that you are at the exact specific range limit to make the other archers shot harder blah, blah, blah.

I mean that's all well and good if you want to play a tactical war game.  But if that's your goal there are far better products to do that with then RPG's in the first place.

I only use defined distances in 4e or minis wargames.   Everything else I do on the abstract, even if I am using minis for positional representation.