That is, where you create the idea of abstract "zones", either literally termed that way or just generic "point blank-pretty close-medium-far away-hugely far" kind of ranges; so that instead of saying "a gun's range is 600m, so if I'm 601m that means I can fire at the guy but he can't fire at me" or "I move 30ft per round, quintuple for running because i have the good running feat, then I can move diagonally at one-half running speed for half an action, and I have to reduce speed for obstacles so I move 109ft this round", you can just say "i shoot the motherfucker (at medium range)" or "I move to the next closer zone".

Do you like this innovation (I use that term loosely, because I've basically been using that for ages now, and suspect others have as well)? Do you hate it? Why?

RPGPundit

Traveller's done that since day 1.

It's pretty good for narrative play with scale shifts where a battle cruiser's close range isn't the same as a peashooter's.

I don't particularly "hate" it. I just don't see much of a point to yet another abstraction of that type when plain distances work fine the way they are. It's just a matter of not getting anal about them in actual play.

I like it because it lets me strike a middle ground between precise miniatures play and no miniatures. Without miniatures, some of my players tend to get confused about spatial relations and "teleport" themselves wherever the action is. But full-on minis play is frequently too slow for me. So for very fast, non-tactical games, I think it's a good fit.

Quote from: RPGPundit;429917Do you like this innovation (I use that term loosely, because I've basically been using that for ages now, and suspect others have as well)? Do you hate it? Why?

My main concern with it is that unless it's a representative abstraction, it's going to suffer from the same problem that all non-representative abstractions suffer from, which is that it will break down if it gets used outside of the range of situations where the non-representative abstraction is designed to work.  Specifically, what happens when many combatants are engaging each other and coming to the aid of each other in a single combat?  Yes, it's easy to say I'm "medium range" from a single target but how does one keep track of the range to all possible combatants without keeping track of more exact positions or running the risk of the various ranges not all being possible to represent or visualize in real space?

The main reason why my group uses hex or grid maps and movement rules is that we frequently have combats with many combatants vs. many combatants with people switching who they are fighting or coming to each other's aid (which makes both time and space important) and trying to handle that in the abstract seems like it would be even more confusing than just using a hex or grid map.

I'm split. I like them some of the time... for example the D20 Starwars game used something similar to resolve chases, and I've seen it well used for other chase mechanics in other games, vehicular or otherwise.

As a replacement for real measurements I find it can actually get in the way. Some players, myself included, don't want to be told I'm 'sorta close' to the other guy, I want to hear that I'm thirty meters.

The problems with direct measurements can be, yes, anal players trying to game the margin for error and more likely game designers failing to actually think about what those distances represent.  Seriously, I don't think you could sell a game designer on five foot squares for D&D if you took the design team and actually STOOD them in five foot squares.  At the very least it would have forced them to consider less than marginal cases where people really want to crowd in a lot closer...

Seriously: A lot of games seem to use real measurements in abstract ways and that irritates. On the other hand, full on OCD Gurps (a la third edition at least) made it almost impossible to 'roll through' 'combat' because it focused TOO MUCH on distances, and the modifiers for even reasonable distances broke the dice curve into little pieces.

So...yeah. Everything has its place.

Quote from: David Johansen;429918Traveller's done that since day 1.

It also appeared in the Star Wars Introductory Adventure Game where it has worked very well. I think that is where it functions best, in introductory games to get new gamers started in the hobby.

I like it, because guns and such don't really have exact ranges, bullets go until they run out of applied energy behind them. Sure they get inaccurate, but that's taken into account with major penalties in most games.

People also don't all run an exact speed, even when their life is in danger. Better to be vague and let it make game sense. Not worry about specific meters and feet.

Quote from: John Morrow;429968Specifically, what happens when many combatants are engaging each other and coming to the aid of each other in a single combat?  Yes, it's easy to say I'm "medium range" from a single target but how does one keep track of the range to all possible combatants without keeping track of more exact positions or running the risk of the various ranges not all being possible to represent or visualize in real space?

This is where WFRP3 falls on it's face.  Take a standard type of encounter - PC's in the center, bad guys all around in an ambush/bushwhack attack.  WFRP3's range system combines the worst of both systems.  It uses miniatures in play, has a set system for movement but that movement is between abstract zones, not any defined distance.  It's a useless mess.

Now abstract ranges are great for chases, there you have the chased, and the chasers who are presumably behind.  It's easy to measure distances this way when everyone is in a line.  For regular play, I just use minis and map, if it gets down to life or death situation involving diagonals I'll just err on the side of the characters.

TSR's Marvel Super Heroes used loosely defined "areas" for measurements. The maximum size topped out at 44 yards in wide-open space, if memory serves me right, but could be any size under that, especially in a cramped urban setting. Most characters had a movement rate of 2-3 areas per round and all powers and weapons had ranges defined by a certain number of areas. It worked well for supers action.

Quote from: CRKrueger;430020Now abstract ranges are great for chases, there you have the chased, and the chasers who are presumably behind.

A good chase system, especially one that accomodates a wide range of transport modes, must include abstract ranges.  My favourite remains the James Bond RPG, and I keep trying to adapt it to whatever game I'm running.  It continues to amaze me how many games that should know better keep presenting chases as an afterthought to the combat system.

Loosey-goosey range bands are generally preferable to me over grids. However, you have to be able to accommodate loosey-goosey movement rules, and abandon strict time frames for combat and movement rounds. You have to be comfortable with the idea that some players in a particular moment are going to want to do something that would take a long time, while several will want to do things that would take a short time. You need a method to adjudicate that fairly.

You don't need new rules for it. Just some mean for keeping track of what would likely happen when. Then resolve it in order. Some guy in the bunch will think it unfair that the guy at the bottom of the stairs can get several shots off as he's running up two flights, even though it's the same bit of game time. But it seems to me to be something folks get used to after a while.

Yeah, its widely preferable to me to use abstract measures of distance than to have to figure out movement, range, etc. which often requires the use of minis to adjudicate.

RPGPundit

i didn't "get" the abstracts at first, back when i played B/E & ad&d.  then i was pretty much a straight range numbers guy.  (also didn't really grok MSH's areas).  but then when i started reffing classic/megatraveller, suddenly it just made sense.  much easier all around.

I think these can be very useful. I don't use them all the time, and it really depends on the needs of the campaign and the moment being played out.