So my thought is, how do you approach using monsters that draw from a different culture than the ? i.e. Indian rakshasas in a European-based setting, or Egyptian mummies in a Chinese-based setting, or European vampires in an Incan-based setting, etc.
My current campaign is set in a fantasy world inspired by Andean/Incan history, which was originally created by my son. However, the fantasy features are drawn from standard D&D, which has a mix of mostly European with some mix of the Near East, India, and East Asia. I find that it's a difficult learning curve if the players need to deal with unfamiliar magic, monsters, and races as well as unfamiliar culture. So the standard elements of D&D makes it easier for players to jump into.
Still, sometimes stuff can seem out of place. I'm finding that my approach is to find a local hook - something in the local culture that the monsters connect to.
So, for example, the big monster in the last adventure was vampire spawn. I connected this to a night-worshipping cult based on an Andean creation myth that the Sun threw ashes in the face of the Moon to dim her shine. Since this reflects poorly on the Sun god Inti, who is the patron of the Empire, the myth became a basis of a cult that opposes the Empire.
Also, when dealing with dragonborn society and ancient dragonborn wraiths, I tied in the Amaru Aranway myth about two dragon gods that were fighting, and were turned into stone that became local mountain chains. In the campaign, these two represented the metallic and chromatic dragons (the equivalent of Bahamut and Tiamat).
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I was thinking about this process, and how it might apply for other mixes of settings. Do other people only have mummies if the PCs travel to an Egypt-like part of the setting? Or do you just drop a mummy into the local area without having any Egypt-like connection? Or do you find something more local-seeming that might connect to mummies?
IIRC the Incas had mummies.
How do I do it? I go balls deep and make the setting it's own thing, most of the X folklore monsters have their equivalent on other cultures. It just requires a LOT more work to stat the new monsters, classes, races and to re-skin them correctly.
If needed I borrow from nearby cultures that were kinda/sorta/not really simmilar, so I borrow from the Maya/Aztecs, etc.
Because there's a huge hole in our knowledge of many of those cultures I fill those with my imagination re-skining D&D monsters as something that COULD have been part of their culture/lore.
Remind me to send you a pdf of my notes for my High Fantasy/FantasySci-Fi Mayan inspired game, 3 PC races made up whole cloth by mangling the Maya creation myth, importing stuff from the Aztecs (We know a lot more about them) and giving it a deep bath into my imagination to make them sound/feel Maya. This includes changing the name and most of the time other stuff.
Yes, mummies are easy because the Incas did have mummies. In fact, they would bring them out to consult with the priests and parade them through the streets. There's a 5e/DCC module "Jungle Tomb of the Mummy Bride," that is set in a Meso-American inspired locale.
In general it might depend on how your world is set up. Obviously they can just come via magic gates or the Underdark. For example, I have the goblin rats from Oriental Adventures as stand-ins for Warhammer skaven and they're infiltrating all the cities via the Underdark and sewers, though they originate in the pseudo-Asian lands in my setting. Wizards could summon unusual monsters or they could be brought from distant lands to be put in some noble's zoo. Or go with ancient alien theory.
Unless I'm just throwing something together for a lark or to give some mechanics a whirl, I don't use monsters from the culture straight, let alone something from another culture. In a setting I'm bothering to put any thought into at all, that's not all that difficult, because I'm already inclined to use relatively few monsters integrated into the setting rather than even approaching kitchen sink. It also makes it a little easier that I tend to do settings that pull from several cultures at once, though again not unlimited.
I'm interested in the setting being cohesive on its own terms, than caring how authentic it is to the source material. In my current setting, for example, I've got a creature that's got some Slavic influences (more Balkans than elsewhere), a tiny bit of Medieval Spanish influence, and a fair amount of the kitsune fox in it. However, it wouldn't fit in any setting that tried to be accurate to those sources.
I recall a scene in Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword in which a Satyr appears in Viking-age Scandinavia. He had been driven there by the rise of Christianity in his native lands.
"Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different. The good poet welds his theft into a whole of feeling which is unique, utterly different than that from which it is torn." - TS Eliot
My basic rule, which I realize is unhelpfully vague, is that the monster has to feel right in the setting. Mummies feel right in deserts, pretty much no matter what the prevalent culture is. Couatl's feel right in triple canopy rain forests. If it doesn't feel right, and I still want to use it, then re-skinning generally works: same stats, same ecology, same psychology, different appearance. The only things that really cause me mental strain are unique creatures strongly linked to their setting/culture/myth when they show up elsewhere, frex Cerberus showing up in a Norse themed game.
I know what you go through, jhkim. I use a lot of culture analogs to rapidly create my campaign settings. For me the biggest aid is to find monster analogs, if possible, and if not tap into similar monsters that show variance by the culture that surrounds it.
For example, at first Occident dragons & Orient dragons, and similarly with undead vampire/hungry ghosts. But then similarly look how a culture re-reads things like 'undead' or 'goblins' and try to convey that. A lot of White Wolf material, for good and ill, attempts to tap into those materials. And lastly, if there is no analog or variant -- and everything else is too alien -- I take a "social" monster and attach cultural trappings to keep things suitably in theme (and unexpected for lore munchkins).
So, my orcs & trolls of Thar by the Moonsea have more horseriding raiding parties... and they do underground longhouses if they can, and they like saunas, too. Emulates that Finnish, Karelia, Russian steppe mix. I'm sure I'd add a licorice flavored alcohol of some putrid sort (can you ferment blood? or just add blood to alcohol?) to make it suitably of that region, but also alien to that species. It shows a cross-cultural influence, despite hostilities, and individualizes my campaign monsters from bog standard.
Does that help? :)
(https://i.imgur.com/NwLjbLW.png)
There is a fantastic book for CoC called "Terror Australis (https://www.chaosium.com/terror-australis-2nd-edition-hardcover/)". Which I found to be super cool (I'm an Aussie) as it does a fantastic job of intertwining Aboriginal Myth with the CoC Setting and placing the entire game inside a regional location. I think it is kind of a template for "how to do it right" when creating content based on "real" myth.
Quote from: markmohrfield on January 27, 2023, 03:30:02 PM
I recall a scene in Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword in which a Satyr appears in Viking-age Scandinavia. He had been driven there by the rise of Christianity in his native lands.
I'm confused, but then it's been many years since I read it.
I have either forgotten this part, or you're mixing up with the devil with hooves.
I made a prototype of a pure dungeon crawl game, and I use creatures from mythologies of all over the world, together in one non-specific location! It's all a hodgepodge, all at once, and I never cared one bit about doing it!
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 27, 2023, 07:39:45 PM
I know what you go through, jhkim. I use a lot of culture analogs to rapidly create my campaign settings. For me the biggest aid is to find monster analogs, if possible, and if not tap into similar monsters that show variance by the culture that surrounds it.
For example, at first Occident dragons & Orient dragons, and similarly with undead vampire/hungry ghosts. But then similarly look how a culture re-reads things like 'undead' or 'goblins' and try to convey that. A lot of White Wolf material, for good and ill, attempts to tap into those materials. And lastly, if there is no analog or variant -- and everything else is too alien -- I take a "social" monster and attach cultural trappings to keep things suitably in theme (and unexpected for lore munchkins).
So, my orcs & trolls of Thar by the Moonsea have more horseriding raiding parties... and they do underground longhouses if they can, and they like saunas, too. Emulates that Finnish, Karelia, Russian steppe mix. I'm sure I'd add a licorice flavored alcohol of some putrid sort (can you ferment blood? or just add blood to alcohol?) to make it suitably of that region, but also alien to that species. It shows a cross-cultural influence, despite hostilities, and individualizes my campaign monsters from bog standard.
Does that help? :)
Yep. That's similar to the sort of thing I've been doing with different intelligent monsters. I agree that thinking monsters can easily have cultural traits that fit with the local culture.
I've been thinking more about how to adapt in wider-ranging monsters as the campaign continues.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 27, 2023, 01:37:37 PM
IIRC the Incas had mummies.
How do I do it? I go balls deep and make the setting it's own thing, most of the X folklore monsters have their equivalent on other cultures. It just requires a LOT more work to stat the new monsters, classes, races and to re-skin them correctly.
The Inca had mummification as a burial ritual -- but their mummies were not regarded the same way as the mummies of D&D. Especially, past emperors were mummies - but they were respected and holy mummies who continued the work of the good Sun God Inti with their immortal life. Since past emperors are patrons rather than foes, their combat stats aren't important, but it's a big point to consider.
As it turns out, my PCs are all working for a mummy - the long-dead grandfather of the current emperor.
I personally am interested in detailed historical campaigns that go all-in. However, I find that it takes a hard-to-find group of players to take to it. The players for this campaign are long-time gamers, but we're fairly casual, and we don't put in a lot of prep time between sessions. We've mostly got busy lives and have only been meeting once a month lately.
This fits well with the D&D-ish approach that goes light on historical details, but still conveys some broad strokes of the geography, politics, a bit of technology, and a smattering of religion and customs. But a lot of specifics are glossed over in favor of action-packed, relatable fantasy.
Quote from: Trond on January 27, 2023, 09:23:28 PM
Quote from: markmohrfield on January 27, 2023, 03:30:02 PM
I recall a scene in Poul Anderson's The Broken Sword in which a Satyr appears in Viking-age Scandinavia. He had been driven there by the rise of Christianity in his native lands.
I'm confused, but then it's been many years since I read it.
I have either forgotten this part, or you're mixing up with the devil with hooves.
Checking it, I find that it's actually a faun. It appears in Chapter Four. The Devil does appear, but in a different scene.
I don't even use standard D&D races such as elves and gnomes outside of a European-like setting. I instead use setting appropriate creatures, e.g. peris in a Middle Eastern-style campaign.
Since Andean and Paracas peninsula mummies were deemed still living relations to be celebrated and venerated, having them as "good mummies" makes perfect sense, jhkim. They now become sages to confer with, or as you made patrons to the PCs. In fact, I'd assume most Egyptian mummies would be seen in a similar light, without fear as long as one was not desecrating their rest. The major difference is how Incan and Paracan mummies were a part of the social fabric of the ritual (liturgical) year, whereas what we know of the Egyptian is that they were massive patrons to the economy who upon interment were to be kept separated and at 'rest' in their afterlife.
I would say it is also not bad to keep some floating surprises along the boarders of a culture. So a kukulkan or queztalcoatl Rare encounter along the northern reaches of the Inca would keep PCs on their toes. Sort of a 'By Night' internationalism, which can get really interesting with blended settings. For example, Forgotten Realms having Greek, Sumerian, and Egyptian pantheons so near each other and the legendary Halfling lands of Llurien could make for some awesome weirdness. An all halfling party taking on a Sphinx or fighting a possession of Pazuzu would be an epic shakeup of expectations.
Quote from: jhkim on January 28, 2023, 03:11:06 AM
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 27, 2023, 07:39:45 PM
I know what you go through, jhkim. I use a lot of culture analogs to rapidly create my campaign settings. For me the biggest aid is to find monster analogs, if possible, and if not tap into similar monsters that show variance by the culture that surrounds it.
For example, at first Occident dragons & Orient dragons, and similarly with undead vampire/hungry ghosts. But then similarly look how a culture re-reads things like 'undead' or 'goblins' and try to convey that. A lot of White Wolf material, for good and ill, attempts to tap into those materials. And lastly, if there is no analog or variant -- and everything else is too alien -- I take a "social" monster and attach cultural trappings to keep things suitably in theme (and unexpected for lore munchkins).
So, my orcs & trolls of Thar by the Moonsea have more horseriding raiding parties... and they do underground longhouses if they can, and they like saunas, too. Emulates that Finnish, Karelia, Russian steppe mix. I'm sure I'd add a licorice flavored alcohol of some putrid sort (can you ferment blood? or just add blood to alcohol?) to make it suitably of that region, but also alien to that species. It shows a cross-cultural influence, despite hostilities, and individualizes my campaign monsters from bog standard.
Does that help? :)
Yep. That's similar to the sort of thing I've been doing with different intelligent monsters. I agree that thinking monsters can easily have cultural traits that fit with the local culture.
I've been thinking more about how to adapt in wider-ranging monsters as the campaign continues.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 27, 2023, 01:37:37 PM
IIRC the Incas had mummies.
How do I do it? I go balls deep and make the setting it's own thing, most of the X folklore monsters have their equivalent on other cultures. It just requires a LOT more work to stat the new monsters, classes, races and to re-skin them correctly.
The Inca had mummification as a burial ritual -- but their mummies were not regarded the same way as the mummies of D&D. Especially, past emperors were mummies - but they were respected and holy mummies who continued the work of the good Sun God Inti with their immortal life. Since past emperors are patrons rather than foes, their combat stats aren't important, but it's a big point to consider.
As it turns out, my PCs are all working for a mummy - the long-dead grandfather of the current emperor.
I personally am interested in detailed historical campaigns that go all-in. However, I find that it takes a hard-to-find group of players to take to it. The players for this campaign are long-time gamers, but we're fairly casual, and we don't put in a lot of prep time between sessions. We've mostly got busy lives and have only been meeting once a month lately.
This fits well with the D&D-ish approach that goes light on historical details, but still conveys some broad strokes of the geography, politics, a bit of technology, and a smattering of religion and customs. But a lot of specifics are glossed over in favor of action-packed, relatable fantasy.
A good mummy can still be an oponent if you cross it: You did something that put at risk the Empire or it's plans for the wedding of his living descendants or stole an artifact...
Just like an Evil Monster can be an (temopraly) ally if both your goals align, I have just set a Vampire against a Dark Druid becauise even though Duncan doesn't understand the whole Neutral/Neutral/Neutral he rather deal with the normal Druids that want "balance" (whatever that is) than with a worshipper of Teon (The ultimate Evil of the world). The Vampire is searching for a ring of stupidity, in exchange for our help she has provided intelligence on the underdark monsters (included the Yuan-Ti and the Drow) that are intent on destroying us because we crossed them by disrupting their plans. Once the alliance ends she promissed to leave the Kingdom for 100 years and has not been feeding on humans, elves, dwarves or halflings, only the monsters.
I actually cooked up a homebrew for a 'Guardian Mummy', a nonevil mummy that acts as a tomb guardian and advisor, based off this line of thought.
Of course, the trick to approaching one was to properly propitiate and venerate it. Better not screw up those religion skill checks.
I don't see any problem. Almost every monster has an equivalent in other cultures: dragons, undead, giants, faeries, etc can be easily given a new coat of paint to keep the local homeowners' association happy. Those that can't could be explained with very little effort: for example, that vampire from Transylvania who was smuggled to London.
I don't really have that problem since I'm quite comfortable with mixing cultures so copper-skinned ninja-pirates speaking French is very acceptable civilisation in my wanderings, and I'd just adjust bestiary by renaming various beings into French or Breton
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 29, 2023, 07:10:12 PM
I don't really have that problem since I'm quite comfortable with mixing cultures so copper-skinned ninja-pirates speaking French is very acceptable civilisation in my wanderings, and I'd just adjust bestiary by renaming various beings into French or Breton
That works if that's what you want, but if what you're looking for is a smidge of authenticity and/or uniqueness to a culture in your world then it doesn't.
Quite the contrary - mix of real world and fantasy elements then carved to my liking give me more sense of verisimilitude and authenticity than another fantasy Egypt, Rome, Germany or England.
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 29, 2023, 09:14:37 PM
Quite the contrary - mix of real world and fantasy elements then carved to my liking give me more sense of verisimilitude and authenticity than another fantasy Egypt, Rome, Germany or England.
To YOU, not everybody likes the stuff you do, not everybody HAS TO like the stuff you do, and that's okay.
More importantly, yours isn't "the one true way".
The problem is that once you have a world with monsters, it's no longer like the real world. And so authenticity is just an illusion.
If monsters were real, they'd likely move and migrate just like humans. Unless there was someplace really inaccessible, like Australia or they got exterminated in an area, like horses in the Americas or Lions most places but Africa.
And if people move, monsters would move. Someone mentioned Dracula moving to England. But there's also the case of the Rakshasa, we only have it in D&D because one popped up in Chicago on Kolchak: The Night Stalker. And even then, you can arguably see similarities between them and the Fomorians of Ireland, since both cultures have Indo-European roots, just 1000s of miles apart
Quote
To YOU, not everybody likes the stuff you do, not everybody HAS TO like the stuff you do, and that's okay.
More importantly, yours isn't "the one true way".
My friend it's you who started with denouncing my way for lack of authenticity, after I merely described my way. So get off this high horse of "subjectivity" :P
Quote from: JeremyR on January 29, 2023, 10:55:51 PM
The problem is that once you have a world with monsters, it's no longer like the real world. And so authenticity is just an illusion.
If monsters were real, they'd likely move and migrate just like humans. Unless there was someplace really inaccessible, like Australia or they got exterminated in an area, like horses in the Americas or Lions most places but Africa.
And if people move, monsters would move. Someone mentioned Dracula moving to England. But there's also the case of the Rakshasa, we only have it in D&D because one popped up in Chicago on Kolchak: The Night Stalker. And even then, you can arguably see similarities between them and the Fomorians of Ireland, since both cultures have Indo-European roots, just 1000s of miles apart
True. If monsters were real, then they'd have evolutionary relationships just like humans and other animals. They wouldn't just pop into existence and stay neatly in their boxes (aside from the monsters which literally do that, like dryads and other genius loci whose main property is a lack of larger scale mobility).
Then again, fantasy kitchen sink settings with fantasy counterpart cultures never actually take into account things like the migration and genetic drift that created different human populations and cultures.
Altho if the monsters were influenced by human beliefs, then you might have a stronger case? Idk
My friends dark fantasy setting had beings born as manifestiation of local belief called elementals, that could manifest in variety of ways depending only of what local ensouled beings believed in.
But on the other hand - those tended to be very unique.
I have no issue with using monsters from all cultures, although nowadays I prefer using published adventures.
Interesting monster are interesting regardless of culture, and D&D is already a hodge-podge of folklore, sci-fi, misconceptions and stuff Gygax et al. made up.
But yes, I try to tie them with the current setting. In my current setting, for example, the major deity is the Lord of Water; it replaces the Catholic Church in all myths that are related to this religion.
I like monsters to make a coherent whole somewhat. For example, all aberrations come from other planes while monstrosities are beast warped by magic, etc.
I'm currently writing a book on Brazilian folklore and it think those monsters could be used anywhere (although many are specific to rivers or forests). It is not always easy to stay true to the source material and usable at the same time (many monsters are a single individual, for example), but I think it is worth the effort.
We've got were-anteaters, flayed tapirs, demonic sows, alligator witches, fire-breathing goats, giant sloths, burning anacondas covered in eyes... cool stuff!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6pmnBtU4OxI/YbiZEk5whvI/AAAAAAAAD6Y/fdpwhtxatLc6GUwn-ZU496Xc2TkxsCfBwCNcBGAsYHQ/4eb5762e-cf6b-4d31-9651-41b4f2e20993.jpg)
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 30, 2023, 02:50:16 AM
Quote
To YOU, not everybody likes the stuff you do, not everybody HAS TO like the stuff you do, and that's okay.
More importantly, yours isn't "the one true way".
My friend it's you who started with denouncing my way for lack of authenticity, after I merely described my way. So get off this high horse of "subjectivity" :P
What I said was this:
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 29, 2023, 07:13:26 PM
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 29, 2023, 07:10:12 PM
I don't really have that problem since I'm quite comfortable with mixing cultures so copper-skinned ninja-pirates speaking French is very acceptable civilisation in my wanderings, and I'd just adjust bestiary by renaming various beings into French or Breton
That works if that's what you want, but if what you're looking for is a smidge of authenticity and/or uniqueness to a culture in your world then it doesn't.
So, I'm not "suddenly" getting in no "high horse of subjectivity", I started WITH subjectivity. To YOU (you have the right to be wrong) putting Inca Emperor mummies right next to European style vampires in a pseudo-Incan setting gives it "authenticity". To others it doesn't, it can be fun but it doesn't feel right, hence why people resort to re-skining monsters into something that feels like it belongs when they're not going for the gonzo approach (nothing wrong with gonzo mind you).
Now, I'm not saying every damn setting HAS TO BE "historically accurate", Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur & Maztica to name a few are perfectly fine settings and lots of fun can be had on those, but they are built to allow for the kitchen sink approach.
If what I want (and what I think Jhkim is searching for) is a high fantasy setting that feels like Inca/Aztec/Maya/Generic precolombine culture then that approach doesn't work. You have to work harder to create/addapt the races, classes, spells, monsters, etc for the setting to feel "authentic". I know because my High Fantasy Mayan inspired game is taking a lot of hard work (I might end importing stuff from other precolombine cultures).
Quote from: JeremyR on January 29, 2023, 10:55:51 PM
The problem is that once you have a world with monsters, it's no longer like the real world. And so authenticity is just an illusion.
If monsters were real, they'd likely move and migrate just like humans. Unless there was someplace really inaccessible, like Australia or they got exterminated in an area, like horses in the Americas or Lions most places but Africa.
Sure, authenticity is an illusion in the sense that it is purely in the perception of the players. But that illusion matters for the feel of the game. I could make a game that is historically accurate to 15th century Britain, but it has anime-inspired psychic powers and alien monsters. That could be logically consistent and fun, but for many players it wouldn't *feel* authentic to 15th century Britain.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 30, 2023, 12:52:13 PM
To YOU (you have the right to be wrong) putting Inca Emperor mummies right next to European style vampires in a pseudo-Incan setting gives it "authenticity". To others it doesn't, it can be fun but it doesn't feel right, hence why people resort to re-skining monsters into something that feels like it belongs when they're not going for the gonzo approach (nothing wrong with gonzo mind you).
Now, I'm not saying every damn setting HAS TO BE "historically accurate", Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur & Maztica to name a few are perfectly fine settings and lots of fun can be had on those, but they are built to allow for the kitchen sink approach.
If what I want (and what I think Jhkim is searching for) is a high fantasy setting that feels like Inca/Aztec/Maya/Generic precolombine culture then that approach doesn't work. You have to work harder to create/addapt the races, classes, spells, monsters, etc for the setting to feel "authentic". I know because my High Fantasy Mayan inspired game is taking a lot of hard work (I might end importing stuff from other precolombine cultures).
I largely agree, but I'd clarify some. GeekyBugle is working on something that sounds more authentic than what I'm trying for. In my campaign, I am intentionally and explicitly setting a low bar for authenticity. But that still means there is some authenticity. I don't want kitchen-sink anything-goes, because I want to convey broad strokes of Incan culture even though I'm skipping a lot of the details.
I don't want to have all-new races, classes, magic, and monsters that fully reflect Incan cultures. That's not just because it's too much work for me, but because it would be a lot of work for the *players* to learn. That is why I am using a lot of the standard D&D races, classes, magic, and monsters. This limits the difficult learning curve.
In my game last night, I conclude that I messed up by my own standards. When going into the vampire's ruined lair, I included a banshee. It was reskinned to relate to an Incan myth, but a player commented that the banshee broke his sense of culture since he felt concept was too tied into Irish myth. In retrospect, I agree with him.
Banshees aren't murderous monsters in Irish folklore either. A ghost that causes sonic damage by screaming is not authentic to Irish folklore.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 30, 2023, 06:33:26 PM
Banshees aren't murderous monsters in Irish folklore either. A ghost that causes sonic damage by screaming is not authentic to Irish folklore.
Agreed. The D&D banshee isn't authentic to Irish folklore, but it is even less authentic to Incan fantasy, however it is reskinned. (Though to be fair, the wail isn't sonic damage.)
I'm not completely changing approach, but I think I want to go back and make clearer choices about barring more parts of D&D from inclusion. I want to go back and rethink both undead and fey as concepts to see about how to adapt them to fit the setting.
Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 06:26:04 PM
Quote from: JeremyR on January 29, 2023, 10:55:51 PM
The problem is that once you have a world with monsters, it's no longer like the real world. And so authenticity is just an illusion.
If monsters were real, they'd likely move and migrate just like humans. Unless there was someplace really inaccessible, like Australia or they got exterminated in an area, like horses in the Americas or Lions most places but Africa.
Sure, authenticity is an illusion in the sense that it is purely in the perception of the players. But that illusion matters for the feel of the game. I could make a game that is historically accurate to 15th century Britain, but it has anime-inspired psychic powers and alien monsters. That could be logically consistent and fun, but for many players it wouldn't *feel* authentic to 15th century Britain.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 30, 2023, 12:52:13 PM
To YOU (you have the right to be wrong) putting Inca Emperor mummies right next to European style vampires in a pseudo-Incan setting gives it "authenticity". To others it doesn't, it can be fun but it doesn't feel right, hence why people resort to re-skining monsters into something that feels like it belongs when they're not going for the gonzo approach (nothing wrong with gonzo mind you).
Now, I'm not saying every damn setting HAS TO BE "historically accurate", Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur & Maztica to name a few are perfectly fine settings and lots of fun can be had on those, but they are built to allow for the kitchen sink approach.
If what I want (and what I think Jhkim is searching for) is a high fantasy setting that feels like Inca/Aztec/Maya/Generic precolombine culture then that approach doesn't work. You have to work harder to create/addapt the races, classes, spells, monsters, etc for the setting to feel "authentic". I know because my High Fantasy Mayan inspired game is taking a lot of hard work (I might end importing stuff from other precolombine cultures).
I largely agree, but I'd clarify some. GeekyBugle is working on something that sounds more authentic than what I'm trying for. In my campaign, I am intentionally and explicitly setting a low bar for authenticity. But that still means there is some authenticity. I don't want kitchen-sink anything-goes, because I want to convey broad strokes of Incan culture even though I'm skipping a lot of the details.
I don't want to have all-new races, classes, magic, and monsters that fully reflect Incan cultures. That's not just because it's too much work for me, but because it would be a lot of work for the *players* to learn. That is why I am using a lot of the standard D&D races, classes, magic, and monsters. This limits the difficult learning curve.
In my game last night, I conclude that I messed up by my own standards. When going into the vampire's ruined lair, I included a banshee. It was reskinned to relate to an Incan myth, but a player commented that the banshee broke his sense of culture since he felt concept was too tied into Irish myth. In retrospect, I agree with him.
So you're trying to find a happy medium between high fantasy Incan inspired and the kitchen sink...
Good luck with that, IME that's even harder than what I'm trying to do.
No, I'm not going for an "Authentic Mayan" (Whatever that means) RPG, It is high fantasy, it has MY equivalent to Dwarves (Clay People), Elves (Wood people) & Halflings (Monkey People) from my mangling of the Mayan creation myth. So they work sorta kinda what you already know but are different enough that they help to sell the Mayan feel.
It even has Steel, because Viking castaways... Yes, yes, it's not "Historically Accurate" but we don't know enough of my ancestors to even try such a thing.
BTW the Vikings went back with "mini" quetzalcoatls (haven't settled on a name yet) they learned to train and ride, plus Mayan astronomy and math, so if you ever play in MY version of Europe I think you'll find it is very different. The Mayas got from the deal the secret of making steel and seafaring.
Fuck I think in MY version of Earth, it will be Vikings and Mayas doing the colonizing. But that's not the time period the setting is dealing with, that's still in the future.
Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 06:46:39 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 30, 2023, 06:33:26 PM
Banshees aren't murderous monsters in Irish folklore either. A ghost that causes sonic damage by screaming is not authentic to Irish folklore.
Agreed. The D&D banshee isn't authentic to Irish folklore, but it is even less authentic to Incan fantasy, however it is reskinned. (Though to be fair, the wail isn't sonic damage.)
I'm not completely changing approach, but I think I want to go back and make clearer choices about barring more parts of D&D from inclusion. I want to go back and rethink both undead and fey as concepts to see about how to adapt them to fit the setting.
Import and re-skin from other precolombine cultures: Toltec, Olmec, Maya, Aztec, "Native" American, further south too.
Edit:
For a not-Banshee you could try La Llorona, it's a colonial myth, I think it's also known as the lady/woman in white.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 30, 2023, 07:01:06 PM
Import and re-skin from other precolombine cultures: Toltec, Olmec, Maya, Aztec, "Native" American, further south too.
Edit:
For a not-Banshee you could try La Llorona, it's a colonial myth, I think it's also known as the lady/woman in white.
Thanks for the suggestions. And sorry that I didn't characterize well your setting. Good luck with yours too, obviously.
I'll look at reskinning colonial-era myths backwards into the Incan fantasy.
I have been focused specifically on Andean cultures because one of the points I want to emphasize is the variety of cultures purely within the Incan empire. There is northern cloud forests, coastal wetlands, arid highlands, rainforest, desert, etc. There are desert nomads who make seasonal figures (Nazca), fishermen and tradesmen of the coast (Chimu), warriors of the cloud forests (Chavin), etc.
Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 07:45:01 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 30, 2023, 07:01:06 PM
Import and re-skin from other precolombine cultures: Toltec, Olmec, Maya, Aztec, "Native" American, further south too.
Edit:
For a not-Banshee you could try La Llorona, it's a colonial myth, I think it's also known as the lady/woman in white.
Thanks for the suggestions. And sorry that I didn't characterize well your setting. Good luck with yours too, obviously.
I'll look at reskinning colonial-era myths backwards into the Incan fantasy.
I have been focused specifically on Andean cultures because one of the points I want to emphasize is the variety of cultures purely within the Incan empire. There is northern cloud forests, coastal wetlands, arid highlands, rainforest, desert, etc. There are desert nomads who make seasonal figures (Nazca), fishermen and tradesmen of the coast (Chimu), warriors of the cloud forests (Chavin), etc.
Hey, no problem, you haven't read it (nobody but me has).
As for Inca like myths, have you tried the other Andean cultures? The ones before the Inca? I bet it would feel like it belongs, just like if you re-skin Aztec, Toltec, Olmec myths into a Mayan setting (provided you do it well) most wouldn't be able to tell the difference, after all the Inca culture didn't fall from the sky completelly formed, they must be an outgrowth of the previous ones from the region.
QuoteIn my game last night, I conclude that I messed up by my own standards. When going into the vampire's ruined lair, I included a banshee. It was reskinned to relate to an Incan myth, but a player commented that the banshee broke his sense of culture since he felt concept was too tied into Irish myth. In retrospect, I agree with him.
How he knew it was banshee if you reskinned it?
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 31, 2023, 07:13:48 PM
QuoteIn my game last night, I conclude that I messed up by my own standards. When going into the vampire's ruined lair, I included a banshee. It was reskinned to relate to an Incan myth, but a player commented that the banshee broke his sense of culture since he felt concept was too tied into Irish myth. In retrospect, I agree with him.
How he knew it was banshee if you reskinned it?
He didn't change the mechanics, only gave it a coat of paint.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 31, 2023, 10:29:54 PM
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 31, 2023, 07:13:48 PM
QuoteIn my game last night, I conclude that I messed up by my own standards. When going into the vampire's ruined lair, I included a banshee. It was reskinned to relate to an Incan myth, but a player commented that the banshee broke his sense of culture since he felt concept was too tied into Irish myth. In retrospect, I agree with him.
How he knew it was banshee if you reskinned it?
He didn't change the mechanics, only gave it a coat of paint.
Exactly. It was a female ghost that spoke of revering Mamaquilla, but its wail was distinct enough that an experienced D&D player easily identified it as a banshee - especially given how the other stats matched.
Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2023, 10:33:41 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 31, 2023, 10:29:54 PM
Quote from: Wrath of God on January 31, 2023, 07:13:48 PM
QuoteIn my game last night, I conclude that I messed up by my own standards. When going into the vampire's ruined lair, I included a banshee. It was reskinned to relate to an Incan myth, but a player commented that the banshee broke his sense of culture since he felt concept was too tied into Irish myth. In retrospect, I agree with him.
How he knew it was banshee if you reskinned it?
He didn't change the mechanics, only gave it a coat of paint.
Exactly. It was a female ghost that spoke of revering Mamaquilla, but its wail was distinct enough that an experienced D&D player easily identified it as a banshee - especially given how the other stats matched.
Which is the definition of re-skining it. The next step is to change the mechanics, which is making a different monster not re-skining an existing one.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 30, 2023, 08:29:04 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 07:45:01 PM
Thanks for the suggestions. And sorry that I didn't characterize well your setting. Good luck with yours too, obviously.
I'll look at reskinning colonial-era myths backwards into the Incan fantasy.
I have been focused specifically on Andean cultures because one of the points I want to emphasize is the variety of cultures purely within the Incan empire. There is northern cloud forests, coastal wetlands, arid highlands, rainforest, desert, etc. There are desert nomads who make seasonal figures (Nazca), fishermen and tradesmen of the coast (Chimu), warriors of the cloud forests (Chavin), etc.
Hey, no problem, you haven't read it (nobody but me has).
As for Inca like myths, have you tried the other Andean cultures? The ones before the Inca? I bet it would feel like it belongs, just like if you re-skin Aztec, Toltec, Olmec myths into a Mayan setting (provided you do it well) most wouldn't be able to tell the difference, after all the Inca culture didn't fall from the sky completelly formed, they must be an outgrowth of the previous ones from the region.
Yes, definitely. Pre-Incan cultures have actually been a mainstay of my adventures. It absolutely fits. Incan culture wasn't an old all-encompassing culture. They were a short-lived organization for most of their territory, not a centuries-old tradition. My introductory adventure was related to ancient Nazca lines, and then jungle territory, then Ecuadorian pit tombs, and most recently Chimu trade networks and adobe ruins.
Anyway, as I said, I'm still on board with re-skinning some monsters - but I'm going to be more selective about what magic and monsters I allow, and add in a few unique monsters and items.
Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2023, 11:38:07 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 30, 2023, 08:29:04 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 07:45:01 PM
Thanks for the suggestions. And sorry that I didn't characterize well your setting. Good luck with yours too, obviously.
I'll look at reskinning colonial-era myths backwards into the Incan fantasy.
I have been focused specifically on Andean cultures because one of the points I want to emphasize is the variety of cultures purely within the Incan empire. There is northern cloud forests, coastal wetlands, arid highlands, rainforest, desert, etc. There are desert nomads who make seasonal figures (Nazca), fishermen and tradesmen of the coast (Chimu), warriors of the cloud forests (Chavin), etc.
Hey, no problem, you haven't read it (nobody but me has).
As for Inca like myths, have you tried the other Andean cultures? The ones before the Inca? I bet it would feel like it belongs, just like if you re-skin Aztec, Toltec, Olmec myths into a Mayan setting (provided you do it well) most wouldn't be able to tell the difference, after all the Inca culture didn't fall from the sky completelly formed, they must be an outgrowth of the previous ones from the region.
Yes, definitely. Pre-Incan cultures have actually been a mainstay of my adventures. It absolutely fits. Incan culture wasn't an old all-encompassing culture. They were a short-lived organization for most of their territory, not a centuries-old tradition. My introductory adventure was related to ancient Nazca lines, and then jungle territory, then Ecuadorian pit tombs, and most recently Chimu trade networks and adobe ruins.
Anyway, as I said, I'm still on board with re-skinning some monsters - but I'm going to be more selective about what magic and monsters I allow, and add in a few unique monsters and items.
Maybe re-skin them but swap their attack with another monster?
I still don't understand the "it's a banshee!" complaint. Irish myth doesn't even have ghosts that kill you with screaming, much less has a monopoly on the idea. There's the screaming skull, screaming Jenny, etc.
I'm actually more curious as to how he handles the human sacrifice. Considering how integral it was to Incan religion and culture, it must be hard to present it in a way that stays true to the culture, but also fits modern sensibilities...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 02, 2023, 07:11:46 PM
I'm actually more curious as to how he handles the human sacrifice. Considering how integral it was to Incan religion and culture, it must be hard to present it in a way that stays true to the culture, but also fits modern sensibilities...
This is why MY Mayan inspired High Fantasy game isn't "Historically Accurate". So I don't really care about staying true to the culture of my ancestors, real history or anything.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 02, 2023, 07:18:23 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 02, 2023, 07:11:46 PM
I'm actually more curious as to how he handles the human sacrifice. Considering how integral it was to Incan religion and culture, it must be hard to present it in a way that stays true to the culture, but also fits modern sensibilities...
This is why MY Mayan inspired High Fantasy game isn't "Historically Accurate". So I don't really care about staying true to the culture of my ancestors, real history or anything.
Likewise, my current campaign is high fantasy, and is roughly as accurate to the historical Incan Empire as D&D is to historical Europe. I have elves, dwarves, and dragonborn running around with wizards composing spells on quipu, etc. It's clear that it isn't historically accurate.
I've run some near-historical campaigns in the past (often with some supernatural elements), but I've generally avoided subjects of rape, slavery, and human sacrifice in games. For example, I had a viking alternate history game where human sacrifice would have been plausible given historical practice - but it didn't seem like it would be fun for the players. So I didn't include it.
Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 01:03:50 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 02, 2023, 07:18:23 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 02, 2023, 07:11:46 PM
I'm actually more curious as to how he handles the human sacrifice. Considering how integral it was to Incan religion and culture, it must be hard to present it in a way that stays true to the culture, but also fits modern sensibilities...
This is why MY Mayan inspired High Fantasy game isn't "Historically Accurate". So I don't really care about staying true to the culture of my ancestors, real history or anything.
Likewise, my current campaign is high fantasy, and is roughly as accurate to the historical Incan Empire as D&D is to historical Europe. I have elves, dwarves, and dragonborn running around with wizards composing spells on quipu, etc. It's clear that it isn't historically accurate.
I've run some near-historical campaigns in the past (often with some supernatural elements), but I've generally avoided subjects of rape, slavery, and human sacrifice in games. For example, I had a viking alternate history game where human sacrifice would have been plausible given historical practice - but it didn't seem like it would be fun for the players. So I didn't include it.
Only the bad guys do those things, I always fade to black sex and rape would be implied never shown (described) if the table is an adult one. Slavery and Human sacrifice are also often included as something the bad guys do but never really described in full.
The players WANT TO be the heroes (unless you're playing bad guys or murderhobbos), and to be a hero means there must be villains, and villains have to be Evil.
But to each his own, that's just how I do things.
Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 06:26:04 PM
In my game last night, I conclude that I messed up by my own standards. When going into the vampire's ruined lair, I included a banshee. It was reskinned to relate to an Incan myth, but a player commented that the banshee broke his sense of culture since he felt concept was too tied into Irish myth. In retrospect, I agree with him.
Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 01:03:50 AM
Likewise, my current campaign is high fantasy, and is roughly as accurate to the historical Incan Empire as D&D is to historical Europe. I have elves, dwarves, and dragonborn running around with wizards composing spells on quipu, etc. It's clear that it isn't historically accurate.
What? So your player can handle elves, dwarves, dragonborn, but banshees are a bridge too far? Are you playing with the princess from "the Princess and the Pea"? This does not compute. Either you are striving for an Incan flavor, or you're not. The idea that an elf is culturally appropriate for an Incan adventure, but human sacrifice isn't, uses a definition of "culture" that isn't normal to the English language. Sounds more like Coyote and Crow garbage, where the people who wrote it want some fantasy projection where the culture they are aping is nothing like the actual culture as it existed. It sounds more like Incan black-face than Incan "culture"...
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 03, 2023, 05:55:30 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 06:26:04 PM
In my game last night, I conclude that I messed up by my own standards. When going into the vampire's ruined lair, I included a banshee. It was reskinned to relate to an Incan myth, but a player commented that the banshee broke his sense of culture since he felt concept was too tied into Irish myth. In retrospect, I agree with him.
Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 01:03:50 AM
Likewise, my current campaign is high fantasy, and is roughly as accurate to the historical Incan Empire as D&D is to historical Europe. I have elves, dwarves, and dragonborn running around with wizards composing spells on quipu, etc. It's clear that it isn't historically accurate.
What? So your player can handle elves, dwarves, dragonborn, but banshees are a bridge too far? Are you playing with the princess from "the Princess and the Pea"? This does not compute. Either you are striving for an Incan flavor, or you're not. The idea that an elf is culturally appropriate for an Incan adventure, but human sacrifice isn't, uses a definition of "culture" that isn't normal to the English language. Sounds more like Coyote and Crow garbage, where the people who wrote it want some fantasy projection where the culture they are aping is nothing like the actual culture as it existed. It sounds more like Incan black-face than Incan "culture"...
I disagree that there is a binary either fully-flavored or not-at-all. European-based high fantasy like Tolkien and D&D are very far from historical Europe, but there are still additions that some people feel are opposed to the cultural flavor. For example, few people complain that D&D druids don't engage in human sacrifice, despite that being historical fact for real-world Europe. On the other hand, some people say that the monk doesn't fit in with the other classes, or that the Tabaxi and other supplemental races don't fit.
Tolkien isn't falsely aping Anglo-Saxon culture. He's deliberately created a fantasy that reflects some parts of Anglo-Saxon culture, but not all.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2023, 01:58:36 AM
Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 01:03:50 AM
I've run some near-historical campaigns in the past (often with some supernatural elements), but I've generally avoided subjects of rape, slavery, and human sacrifice in games. For example, I had a viking alternate history game where human sacrifice would have been plausible given historical practice - but it didn't seem like it would be fun for the players. So I didn't include it.
Only the bad guys do those things, I always fade to black sex and rape would be implied never shown (described) if the table is an adult one. Slavery and Human sacrifice are also often included as something the bad guys do but never really described in full.
The players WANT TO be the heroes (unless you're playing bad guys or murderhobbos), and to be a hero means there must be villains, and villains have to be Evil.
Whoops. I misspoke there. I do have villains and monsters engage in human sacrifice. I meant on the PCs side. i.e. I've run a number of games where the PCs are vikings, but I don't have their side engage in human sacrifice even though that was something historical vikings did.
Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 06:56:26 PM
Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 03, 2023, 05:55:30 PM
Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 06:26:04 PM
In my game last night, I conclude that I messed up by my own standards. When going into the vampire's ruined lair, I included a banshee. It was reskinned to relate to an Incan myth, but a player commented that the banshee broke his sense of culture since he felt concept was too tied into Irish myth. In retrospect, I agree with him.
Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 01:03:50 AM
Likewise, my current campaign is high fantasy, and is roughly as accurate to the historical Incan Empire as D&D is to historical Europe. I have elves, dwarves, and dragonborn running around with wizards composing spells on quipu, etc. It's clear that it isn't historically accurate.
What? So your player can handle elves, dwarves, dragonborn, but banshees are a bridge too far? Are you playing with the princess from "the Princess and the Pea"? This does not compute. Either you are striving for an Incan flavor, or you're not. The idea that an elf is culturally appropriate for an Incan adventure, but human sacrifice isn't, uses a definition of "culture" that isn't normal to the English language. Sounds more like Coyote and Crow garbage, where the people who wrote it want some fantasy projection where the culture they are aping is nothing like the actual culture as it existed. It sounds more like Incan black-face than Incan "culture"...
I disagree that there is a binary either fully-flavored or not-at-all. European-based high fantasy like Tolkien and D&D are very far from historical Europe, but there are still additions that some people feel are opposed to the cultural flavor. For example, few people complain that D&D druids don't engage in human sacrifice, despite that being historical fact for real-world Europe. On the other hand, some people say that the monk doesn't fit in with the other classes, or that the Tabaxi and other supplemental races don't fit.
Tolkien isn't falsely aping Anglo-Saxon culture. He's deliberately created a fantasy that reflects some parts of Anglo-Saxon culture, but not all.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 03, 2023, 01:58:36 AM
Quote from: jhkim on February 03, 2023, 01:03:50 AM
I've run some near-historical campaigns in the past (often with some supernatural elements), but I've generally avoided subjects of rape, slavery, and human sacrifice in games. For example, I had a viking alternate history game where human sacrifice would have been plausible given historical practice - but it didn't seem like it would be fun for the players. So I didn't include it.
Only the bad guys do those things, I always fade to black sex and rape would be implied never shown (described) if the table is an adult one. Slavery and Human sacrifice are also often included as something the bad guys do but never really described in full.
The players WANT TO be the heroes (unless you're playing bad guys or murderhobbos), and to be a hero means there must be villains, and villains have to be Evil.
Whoops. I misspoke there. I do have villains and monsters engage in human sacrifice. I meant on the PCs side. i.e. I've run a number of games where the PCs are vikings, but I don't have their side engage in human sacrifice even though that was something historical vikings did.
Vikings fuck yeah! Although that's an ocupation and not a race, nationality or ethnicity, but we do understand what we mean.
Feathered serpent riding vikings double fuck yeah. Triple if they also use their feathered serpents to pull their longships.
The Mummy is not an 'Egyptian Monster' - it's a European/American monster representing the colonialist tomb robber's fear of the tombs they're looting. This trope works equally well in any other setting where there are tomb robber PCs. You see very similar in Norse tales of ancient tombs, inspiring Skyrim's Draugr.
Quote from: S'mon on February 04, 2023, 05:26:25 AM
The Mummy is not an 'Egyptian Monster' - it's a European/American monster representing the colonialist tomb robber's fear of the tombs they're looting. This trope works equally well in any other setting where there are tomb robber PCs. You see very similar in Norse tales of ancient tombs, inspiring Skyrim's Draugr.
I agree about the origin. But a mummy is still intended to have Egyptian feel. If one were to use a D&D mummy or mummy lord for a Norse tomb, there could be problems in fit. Attacking with rotting fists would seem odd given that Norse nobles were buried with their weaponry, as would the sandstorm ability of a mummy lord.