Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 30, 2023, 06:33:26 PM
Banshees aren't murderous monsters in Irish folklore either. A ghost that causes sonic damage by screaming is not authentic to Irish folklore.

Agreed. The D&D banshee isn't authentic to Irish folklore, but it is even less authentic to Incan fantasy, however it is reskinned. (Though to be fair, the wail isn't sonic damage.)

I'm not completely changing approach, but I think I want to go back and make clearer choices about barring more parts of D&D from inclusion. I want to go back and rethink both undead and fey as concepts to see about how to adapt them to fit the setting.

Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 06:26:04 PM

Quote from: JeremyR on January 29, 2023, 10:55:51 PM
The problem is that once you have a world with monsters, it's no longer like the real world. And so authenticity is just an illusion.

If monsters were real, they'd likely move and migrate just like humans. Unless there was someplace really inaccessible, like Australia or they got exterminated in an area, like horses in the Americas or Lions most places but Africa.

Sure, authenticity is an illusion in the sense that it is purely in the perception of the players. But that illusion matters for the feel of the game. I could make a game that is historically accurate to 15th century Britain, but it has anime-inspired psychic powers and alien monsters. That could be logically consistent and fun, but for many players it wouldn't *feel* authentic to 15th century Britain.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 30, 2023, 12:52:13 PM
To YOU (you have the right to be wrong) putting Inca Emperor mummies right next to European style vampires in a pseudo-Incan setting gives it "authenticity". To others it doesn't, it can be fun but it doesn't feel right, hence why people resort to re-skining monsters into something that feels like it belongs when they're not going for the gonzo approach (nothing wrong with gonzo mind you).

Now, I'm not saying every damn setting HAS TO BE "historically accurate", Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur & Maztica to name a few are perfectly fine settings and lots of fun can be had on those, but they are built to allow for the kitchen sink approach.

If what I want (and what I think Jhkim is searching for) is a high fantasy setting that feels like Inca/Aztec/Maya/Generic precolombine culture then that approach doesn't work. You have to work harder to create/addapt the races, classes, spells, monsters, etc for the setting to feel "authentic". I know because my High Fantasy Mayan inspired game is taking a lot of hard work (I might end importing stuff from other precolombine cultures).

I largely agree, but I'd clarify some. GeekyBugle is working on something that sounds more authentic than what I'm trying for. In my campaign, I am intentionally and explicitly setting a low bar for authenticity. But that still means there is some authenticity. I don't want kitchen-sink anything-goes, because I want to convey broad strokes of Incan culture even though I'm skipping a lot of the details.

I don't want to have all-new races, classes, magic, and monsters that fully reflect Incan cultures. That's not just because it's too much work for me, but because it would be a lot of work for the *players* to learn. That is why I am using a lot of the standard D&D races, classes, magic, and monsters. This limits the difficult learning curve.

In my game last night, I conclude that I messed up by my own standards. When going into the vampire's ruined lair, I included a banshee. It was reskinned to relate to an Incan myth, but a player commented that the banshee broke his sense of culture since he felt concept was too tied into Irish myth. In retrospect, I agree with him.

So you're trying to find a happy medium between high fantasy Incan inspired and the kitchen sink...

Good luck with that, IME that's even harder than what I'm trying to do.

No, I'm not going for an "Authentic Mayan" (Whatever that means) RPG, It is high fantasy, it has MY equivalent to Dwarves (Clay People), Elves (Wood people) & Halflings (Monkey People) from my mangling of the Mayan creation myth. So they work sorta kinda what you already know but are different enough that they help to sell the Mayan feel.

It even has Steel, because Viking castaways... Yes, yes, it's not "Historically Accurate" but we don't know enough of my ancestors to even try such a thing.

BTW the Vikings went back with "mini" quetzalcoatls (haven't settled on a name yet) they learned to train and ride, plus Mayan astronomy and math, so if you ever play in MY version of Europe I think you'll find it is very different. The Mayas got from the deal the secret of making steel and seafaring.

Fuck I think in MY version of Earth, it will be Vikings and Mayas doing the colonizing. But that's not the time period the setting is dealing with, that's still in the future.

Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 06:46:39 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 30, 2023, 06:33:26 PM
Banshees aren't murderous monsters in Irish folklore either. A ghost that causes sonic damage by screaming is not authentic to Irish folklore.

Agreed. The D&D banshee isn't authentic to Irish folklore, but it is even less authentic to Incan fantasy, however it is reskinned. (Though to be fair, the wail isn't sonic damage.)

I'm not completely changing approach, but I think I want to go back and make clearer choices about barring more parts of D&D from inclusion. I want to go back and rethink both undead and fey as concepts to see about how to adapt them to fit the setting.

Import and re-skin from other precolombine cultures: Toltec, Olmec, Maya, Aztec, "Native" American, further south too.

Edit:

For a not-Banshee you could try La Llorona, it's a colonial myth, I think it's also known as the lady/woman in white.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 30, 2023, 07:01:06 PM
Import and re-skin from other precolombine cultures: Toltec, Olmec, Maya, Aztec, "Native" American, further south too.

Edit:

For a not-Banshee you could try La Llorona, it's a colonial myth, I think it's also known as the lady/woman in white.

Thanks for the suggestions. And sorry that I didn't characterize well your setting. Good luck with yours too, obviously.

I'll look at reskinning colonial-era myths backwards into the Incan fantasy.

I have been focused specifically on Andean cultures because one of the points I want to emphasize is the variety of cultures purely within the Incan empire. There is northern cloud forests, coastal wetlands, arid highlands, rainforest, desert, etc. There are desert nomads who make seasonal figures (Nazca), fishermen and tradesmen of the coast (Chimu), warriors of the cloud forests (Chavin), etc.

Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 07:45:01 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 30, 2023, 07:01:06 PM
Import and re-skin from other precolombine cultures: Toltec, Olmec, Maya, Aztec, "Native" American, further south too.

Edit:

For a not-Banshee you could try La Llorona, it's a colonial myth, I think it's also known as the lady/woman in white.

Thanks for the suggestions. And sorry that I didn't characterize well your setting. Good luck with yours too, obviously.

I'll look at reskinning colonial-era myths backwards into the Incan fantasy.

I have been focused specifically on Andean cultures because one of the points I want to emphasize is the variety of cultures purely within the Incan empire. There is northern cloud forests, coastal wetlands, arid highlands, rainforest, desert, etc. There are desert nomads who make seasonal figures (Nazca), fishermen and tradesmen of the coast (Chimu), warriors of the cloud forests (Chavin), etc.

Hey, no problem, you haven't read it (nobody but me has).

As for Inca like myths, have you tried the other Andean cultures? The ones before the Inca? I bet it would feel like it belongs, just like if you re-skin Aztec, Toltec, Olmec myths into a Mayan setting (provided you do it well) most wouldn't be able to tell the difference, after all the Inca culture didn't fall from the sky completelly formed, they must be an outgrowth of the previous ones from the region.

QuoteIn my game last night, I conclude that I messed up by my own standards. When going into the vampire's ruined lair, I included a banshee. It was reskinned to relate to an Incan myth, but a player commented that the banshee broke his sense of culture since he felt concept was too tied into Irish myth. In retrospect, I agree with him.

How he knew it was banshee if you reskinned it?

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 31, 2023, 07:13:48 PM

QuoteIn my game last night, I conclude that I messed up by my own standards. When going into the vampire's ruined lair, I included a banshee. It was reskinned to relate to an Incan myth, but a player commented that the banshee broke his sense of culture since he felt concept was too tied into Irish myth. In retrospect, I agree with him.

How he knew it was banshee if you reskinned it?

He didn't change the mechanics, only gave it a coat of paint.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 31, 2023, 10:29:54 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 31, 2023, 07:13:48 PM

QuoteIn my game last night, I conclude that I messed up by my own standards. When going into the vampire's ruined lair, I included a banshee. It was reskinned to relate to an Incan myth, but a player commented that the banshee broke his sense of culture since he felt concept was too tied into Irish myth. In retrospect, I agree with him.

How he knew it was banshee if you reskinned it?

He didn't change the mechanics, only gave it a coat of paint.

Exactly. It was a female ghost that spoke of revering Mamaquilla, but its wail was distinct enough that an experienced D&D player easily identified it as a banshee - especially given how the other stats matched.

Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2023, 10:33:41 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 31, 2023, 10:29:54 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 31, 2023, 07:13:48 PM

QuoteIn my game last night, I conclude that I messed up by my own standards. When going into the vampire's ruined lair, I included a banshee. It was reskinned to relate to an Incan myth, but a player commented that the banshee broke his sense of culture since he felt concept was too tied into Irish myth. In retrospect, I agree with him.

How he knew it was banshee if you reskinned it?

He didn't change the mechanics, only gave it a coat of paint.

Exactly. It was a female ghost that spoke of revering Mamaquilla, but its wail was distinct enough that an experienced D&D player easily identified it as a banshee - especially given how the other stats matched.

Which is the definition of re-skining it. The next step is to change the mechanics, which is making a different monster not re-skining an existing one.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 30, 2023, 08:29:04 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 07:45:01 PM
Thanks for the suggestions. And sorry that I didn't characterize well your setting. Good luck with yours too, obviously.

I'll look at reskinning colonial-era myths backwards into the Incan fantasy.

I have been focused specifically on Andean cultures because one of the points I want to emphasize is the variety of cultures purely within the Incan empire. There is northern cloud forests, coastal wetlands, arid highlands, rainforest, desert, etc. There are desert nomads who make seasonal figures (Nazca), fishermen and tradesmen of the coast (Chimu), warriors of the cloud forests (Chavin), etc.

Hey, no problem, you haven't read it (nobody but me has).

As for Inca like myths, have you tried the other Andean cultures? The ones before the Inca? I bet it would feel like it belongs, just like if you re-skin Aztec, Toltec, Olmec myths into a Mayan setting (provided you do it well) most wouldn't be able to tell the difference, after all the Inca culture didn't fall from the sky completelly formed, they must be an outgrowth of the previous ones from the region.

Yes, definitely. Pre-Incan cultures have actually been a mainstay of my adventures. It absolutely fits. Incan culture wasn't an old all-encompassing culture. They were a short-lived organization for most of their territory, not a centuries-old tradition. My introductory adventure was related to ancient Nazca lines, and then jungle territory, then Ecuadorian pit tombs, and most recently Chimu trade networks and adobe ruins.

Anyway, as I said, I'm still on board with re-skinning some monsters - but I'm going to be more selective about what magic and monsters I allow, and add in a few unique monsters and items.

Quote from: jhkim on January 31, 2023, 11:38:07 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 30, 2023, 08:29:04 PM

Quote from: jhkim on January 30, 2023, 07:45:01 PM
Thanks for the suggestions. And sorry that I didn't characterize well your setting. Good luck with yours too, obviously.

I'll look at reskinning colonial-era myths backwards into the Incan fantasy.

I have been focused specifically on Andean cultures because one of the points I want to emphasize is the variety of cultures purely within the Incan empire. There is northern cloud forests, coastal wetlands, arid highlands, rainforest, desert, etc. There are desert nomads who make seasonal figures (Nazca), fishermen and tradesmen of the coast (Chimu), warriors of the cloud forests (Chavin), etc.

Hey, no problem, you haven't read it (nobody but me has).

As for Inca like myths, have you tried the other Andean cultures? The ones before the Inca? I bet it would feel like it belongs, just like if you re-skin Aztec, Toltec, Olmec myths into a Mayan setting (provided you do it well) most wouldn't be able to tell the difference, after all the Inca culture didn't fall from the sky completelly formed, they must be an outgrowth of the previous ones from the region.

Yes, definitely. Pre-Incan cultures have actually been a mainstay of my adventures. It absolutely fits. Incan culture wasn't an old all-encompassing culture. They were a short-lived organization for most of their territory, not a centuries-old tradition. My introductory adventure was related to ancient Nazca lines, and then jungle territory, then Ecuadorian pit tombs, and most recently Chimu trade networks and adobe ruins.

Anyway, as I said, I'm still on board with re-skinning some monsters - but I'm going to be more selective about what magic and monsters I allow, and add in a few unique monsters and items.

Maybe re-skin them but swap their attack with another monster?

I still don't understand the "it's a banshee!" complaint. Irish myth doesn't even have ghosts that kill you with screaming, much less has a monopoly on the idea. There's the screaming skull, screaming Jenny, etc.

I'm actually more curious as to how he handles the human sacrifice.  Considering how integral it was to Incan religion and culture, it must be hard to present it in a way that stays true to the culture, but also fits modern sensibilities...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 02, 2023, 07:11:46 PM
I'm actually more curious as to how he handles the human sacrifice.  Considering how integral it was to Incan religion and culture, it must be hard to present it in a way that stays true to the culture, but also fits modern sensibilities...

This is why MY Mayan inspired High Fantasy game isn't "Historically Accurate". So I don't really care about staying true to the culture of my ancestors, real history or anything.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 02, 2023, 07:18:23 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on February 02, 2023, 07:11:46 PM
I'm actually more curious as to how he handles the human sacrifice.  Considering how integral it was to Incan religion and culture, it must be hard to present it in a way that stays true to the culture, but also fits modern sensibilities...

This is why MY Mayan inspired High Fantasy game isn't "Historically Accurate". So I don't really care about staying true to the culture of my ancestors, real history or anything.

Likewise, my current campaign is high fantasy, and is roughly as accurate to the historical Incan Empire as D&D is to historical Europe. I have elves, dwarves, and dragonborn running around with wizards composing spells on quipu, etc. It's clear that it isn't historically accurate.

I've run some near-historical campaigns in the past (often with some supernatural elements), but I've generally avoided subjects of rape, slavery, and human sacrifice in games. For example, I had a viking alternate history game where human sacrifice would have been plausible given historical practice - but it didn't seem like it would be fun for the players. So I didn't include it.