Quote from: jeff37923;1060075That is what I am seeing too, which begs the question, "If OrgPlay had the goal of getting casual gamers and lapsed players back into the hobby, then why is it set up in such a way as to drive them away and turn them off of TTRPGs?"

The only goal of OrgPlay is to sell books. Thus, its setup to incentivize involvement of those who buy the most books, who aren't the casual gamers. It's the obsessives. The casual gamers buy the PHB and maybe a book of goodies for their favored class. Maybe a fig and some dice. And they're the first to vanish.  

And since the companies don't pay the staff of OrgPlay, the volunteers fall into a few camps (power junkies, do-gooders, and hardcore GMs).  The Power Junkies are there to become petty gods over their domain, enforce rules and curry favors. The Do Gooders are there to work while everyone else has fun, lots of martyrdom personalities, often older female gamers. The hardcore GMs are people who rwant to play the damn game and do the OrgPlay work to make that damn game happen in their community. BUT what happens over time is the Power Junkies piss off everyone else and all that's left is those convince themselves they need the OrgPlay and begrudgingly put up with the bullshit.

Back when I GM'd for OrgPlay, I'd set aside a Sunday night convention table for the Do Gooders so they could play one game that weekend. The Power Junkies would LOVE to throw "work" at the Do Gooders at the last minute so they'd miss out on even that one event. The weird geek martyrdom was sad and creepy...and not surprising in the overall story of their lives.  

Even if I liked 5e, I doubt I'd return to OrgPlay because I've been through the Endless Cycle of Stupid and now its SJW flavored which sounds extra unfun.

Could we say "gaming is downstream from culture"?  "That's just, like, your opinion, man, morality is subjective..."  Raise a whole generation like that, and you get some of what you're describing.

On organized play in general, there's two kinds of people who show up.  One kind is the players who get kicked out of home games or can't get people to show up twice when they GM, so they have nowhere else to go, but "open table" means they can't be turned away.  The other kind is people who don't know any better, new players checking out this game they've heard of, returning players thinking of getting back in, and active players looking for a group, or just checking out a new edition.  Normally I would say play a few sessions to see if there's anybody you want to recruit for a game you run, but it doesn't sound like there's anybody to salvage, so it's time to just quit.

The whole point of the 3-7 person table size is at 8 you split into two groups of 4, make one player a GM, and you're ready to roll again.  I have no idea why your table hasn't split, especially if one is already acting as a co-GM, but it sounds like the least of your problems at this point.  (Although, if for some bizarre reason you do stay in, you need to start GMing for a new table and show them how it's done.)

Quote from: rawma;1059178I played for a while at a game store with young players who were far worse. They were peeved with me when I insisted that we could not loot the grave we found, magic item notwithstanding, because my wizard would not countenance such disrespect...

I'd have looted that grave, wizard countenancing or no, and I'm neither young nor (otherwise) a munchkin or murderhobo.  It's D&D, man.  Looting graves is what we do, it's how you get a 1st level character up to 2nd/3rd and ready to start being a hero in editions that don't hand you hero status just for rolling up a character.

Quote from: Dave R;1060105Could we say "gaming is downstream from culture"?  "That's just, like, your opinion, man, morality is subjective..."  Raise a whole generation like that, and you get some of what you're describing.

On organized play in general, there's two kinds of people who show up.  One kind is the players who get kicked out of home games or can't get people to show up twice when they GM, so they have nowhere else to go, but "open table" means they can't be turned away.  The other kind is people who don't know any better, new players checking out this game they've heard of, returning players thinking of getting back in, and active players looking for a group, or just checking out a new edition.  Normally I would say play a few sessions to see if there's anybody you want to recruit for a game you run, but it doesn't sound like there's anybody to salvage, so it's time to just quit.

The whole point of the 3-7 person table size is at 8 you split into two groups of 4, make one player a GM, and you're ready to roll again.  I have no idea why your table hasn't split, especially if one is already acting as a co-GM, but it sounds like the least of your problems at this point.  (Although, if for some bizarre reason you do stay in, you need to start GMing for a new table and show them how it's done.)



I'd have looted that grave, wizard countenancing or no, and I'm neither young nor (otherwise) a munchkin or murderhobo.  It's D&D, man.  Looting graves is what we do, it's how you get a 1st level character up to 2nd/3rd and ready to start being a hero in editions that don't hand you hero status just for rolling up a character.

Greetings!

Outstanding, Dave. "Downstream from culture." Wow. Isn't that the truth? Raising a whole generation like that...and this is what we get. Right on, brother! Hey, and since when did this whole nonsense come about where you are "handed hero status just for rolling up a character"? I'm accustomed to the standard of you start out like scum, or a scorned, out-of-favor noble, or even a young, *unproven* knight--regardless of specific background, you're ultimately weak, poor, and expendable in the big picture of society. It is up to you to fight, and struggle, and claw your way up to fame, riches, and everlasting glory.

Geesus. You're so right on target man. Outside of gaming--I'm familiar with trends in education and such--we started to ban "dodgeball" and competitive games, because too many whining misfits couldn't participate--so then we ban all that as being too macho and hurtful; and instead everyone can participate--and you must accept the misfits on your team--and everyone gets a "participation trophy." No trophies and celebrations for those that EXCEL--no, no, that's *elitist*. Yeah. Just like you said, gaming is "downstream from culture." Geesus that's sharp.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Shark, outside of D&D, there are old school games where your PC starts beefy.  Palladium Books entire line is about starting 1st level competent. Old School D&D does Zero to Hero (as does Warhammer Fantasy), but we've had "hero from day 1" RPGs for decades.

Quote from: Dave R;1060105Could we say "gaming is downstream from culture"?

Good point.

Freak troupes: Yes, you're right. In fact, I believe including any kind of demi-humans to have been a mistake.

Evil powers for good: Come on, that's the zeitgeist of the time...starting with Jack Bauer killing an witness to get "results". And the Assassin was part of Supplement 2: Blackmoor. I see little difference with a Warlock, frankly.
Do you have to like such classes? No. Do you have to allow them for PCs? No. Do they have a place in some games? Yes.
Seems like the game you're in is not a good fit for you.
That said...a Paladin can't be an Warlock. I don't give a flying **** what the rulebook says. Associating with evil and using evil means is a way to turn a hero into an anti-hero, and paladin's powers derive from him being able to say: "I AM THE HERO!"
(And "We Are Groot", too).

No heroism: well, that's the (biggest) problem I'd have with this group. It's not that such groups can't exist...but I don't have fun running games for Billie the Kid. If they kill off NPCs and destroy your dyplomacy attempts, you've gotta have a talk. Like grown-ups (if they don't know how, that's as good a moment as any for them to learn).

Or it might be an issue with Organised Play. I've got limited experience with that.

Quote from: Dave R;1060105I'd have looted that grave, wizard countenancing or no, and I'm neither young nor (otherwise) a munchkin or murderhobo.  It's D&D, man.  Looting graves is what we do, it's how you get a 1st level character up to 2nd/3rd and ready to start being a hero in editions that don't hand you hero status just for rolling up a character.

Bad role-playing, I say. There are consequences to looting graves, beyond curses and being haunted; your unvarying willingness to do so says a lot about your character. If you would never play a character who wouldn't do that or who could be intimidated by a wizard's warning, then you might as well retreat to playing war games with unnamed playing pieces. Note that 5e AL, even before the current season, did not generally award any XP for loot (exceptions being in a few modules where it was an adventure objective), and like most magic items and treasures at low levels this was not going to make a significant difference in a character's power.

(I can also play it the other way, if it's what my character is like. But it might still have turned out the same: it was a rubbish magic item, and my most mercenary character might have judged it not worth the risk to be found carrying identifiable loot by the people who had dug that fairly fresh grave. And in Barovia it almost certainly would have inflicted some curse to take it.)

It doesn't help that base non-variant human is not optimal. All those +1s have little interaction in the game outside it the DM Fiat heavy skill system and since that system is so Fiat dependent, it is generally not that important.

And then variant human tends to be banned. So you get a bunch of demi-humans as the "default" group.

Quote from: AsenRG;1060151That said...a Paladin can't be an Warlock. I don't give a flying **** what the rulebook says. Associating with evil and using evil means is a way to turn a hero into an anti-hero, and paladin's powers derive from him being able to say: "I AM THE HERO!"
(And "We Are Groot", too).

That's a remarkably closed-minded approach. First off, we're not necessarily talking about an old-school Paladin (one taking the Oath of Devotion) and a stereotypical Warlock (with the Fiend Patron). We could be talking about a "Summer/Winter Knight" character combining an Oath of the Ancients (Paladin) with the Archfey Patron (Warlock). Such a character has two classes with subtypes that are very compatible. Oh, and such a character can certainly be the HERO too.

Consider these Oath and Patron parings too:
Oath of Devotion with Celestial Patron
Oath of Redemption with Celestial Patron
Oath of Vengeance with Celestial Patron
Oath of Conquest with Fiend Patron
Oath of Vengeance with Fiend Patron

Quote from: Rhedyn;1060183And then variant human tends to be banned.

It does? Really? I've seen the opposite: The 'variant' human is made the default human.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1060200It does? Really? I've seen the opposite: The 'variant' human is made the default human.

All my humans are Variant - never seen a GM disallow it if they allow Feats at all.