Right. Dont mention stuff unless you are willing to accept that the players might randomly focus on it out of the blue and possibly over-focus on it.

But the "Whats in the crate" example above is part of what I mean by the Q&A style of detail. DM describes the street the PCs are on and on the left is a row of houses and on the left is a empty lot. A temple of some sort from its appearance and another empty lot. And from there the players can ask for more detail or continue on. Sort of the "at a glance this is what you see." approach.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;937306Grover, your threads both here and Big Purple were dumpster fires long, long, long before I started contributing to them. Don't blame me for your shit-shows.


Whereas what I enjoy most about roleplaying games is how they're different from novels or short stories or movies.

Perhaps the most appreciated compliment I received as a referee came from someone who read our actual play logs on my wiki - he said our game seemed less like a story and more like life itself. That's what I strive for, not three acts, rising and falling action, and a dramatic climax.

And that is,a profound difference that explains much. Some of us are looking for theatrical drama, some I suppose a more mundane/real experience. Should have established that at the beginning and avoided a lot of consternation.

Didn't mean to single you out Black, you were just the most recent to respond that way.

Quote from: tenbones;937338This really underscores a lot of the issue. See - for those of us that do "World-in-Motion" sandbox games, your scene is just stage-dressing. It's literally scenery painted with words that the PC's aren't supposed to touch, or interact with, just listen to as you shoot them out of your mouth.

I'm not going to re-write your flavor text. But in my games, if I were to give that florid description of a scene, *each* and *every* word is an invitation for interaction. This is why people say keep it short and sweet (SWEET being the thing that entices the players) - for a couple of reasons:

1) It allows the players to envision the scene and hopefully ask questions relevant to *them* via their PC's. Give your players some credit for having imagination. If they ask you - sure go for it. Go full bouquet of 25-cent words if they want clarification. Then you all get what you want.

2) You have to put your money where your mouth is. If you mention it, you should be prepared for the PC to interact with it. If it's not worth interacting with - then it's not worth mentioning. Even still - players will wanna do this and GMing is part of fleshing things out. As CKrueger mentioned in the other thread - this is that Chaos Wave that can lead to wonderful things if you ride it well. It gives your players agency and your world will come alive instead of being 2-dimensional stage-props meant to be seen at a specific angle.

I had a *really* embarrassing experience when I let one of my players, a neophyte GM run a campaign. I mentioned this a while back on another thread...

Basically I was playing and he was doing *exactly* what you were doing: describing a bunch of stuff that seemed curious to me as a player. He described a trading post in a place where by all logic a trading post shouldn't exist. And we were dealing with a "crafty" guild of thieves and so I was on high-alert. So he described all these porters loading crates in and out of this warehouse. We were in the middle of nowhere - why is there a warehouse here? What could they be loading? So I went into the warehouse and took a look around and the GM says it's filled with crates. The GM started to get nervous as I went to a crate when no one was looking - and asked "What's in the crate?"

The GM said "Uhh... nothing is in the crate."
I'm like.... 'whaaaaat'? Nothing is in the crate?!?!? I go check another crate! I pry it open with my short-sword!"
"Nothing is in that crate either."
"Nothing?!?! I go to another crate! I open it!"
"There's nothing in that crate either. Look there's nothing in any of the crates. There's nothing in the other warehouse either!"

Then I start freaking out - because suddenly I start thinking the Thieves Guild has set up a trap for us and built this fake-outpost to get us. I'm telling the rest of the group to get ready because /Ackbar Voice "IT'S A TRAP!!!"

When in reality - the noob GM was just putting in a setpiece with no intention of us doing anything there and I put him on the spot the moment I said "What's in the crate?" He simply couldn't improv enough to tell me what the fuck is in a random crate (which is why for those that aren't good at improv - random tables RULE!)

To this day in my group "What's the in crate" is a meme for us. I even meta-wink at it in my games when I describe a "warehouse full of crates." No one tries to open them because they know damn well I can tell you what's in every fucking crate within a 1000-miles of their position. (I'm good at improv).

But the point is - your players ideas of the situation are almost *always* better/more important than yours as a GM. Your job is to convey as much clarity as possible and let their imaginations do the heavy lifting. Not your prose. Plus the ability to let your PC's go off-roading from your script is the real call to adventure you're looking for. The unknown is always more thrilling than the proscribed "thrill-ride" that ultimately is predictable.

I get it but honestly only a dolt woukd present something and not be able to expound on it if the players took an interest. I realize descriptive detail has this potential and am always,prepared. But I don't have to plan it that way.

Quote from: tenbones;937338I had a *really* embarrassing experience when I let one of my players, a neophyte GM run a campaign. I mentioned this a while back on another thread...

Basically I was playing and he was doing *exactly* what you were doing: describing a bunch of stuff that seemed curious to me as a player. He described a trading post in a place where by all logic a trading post shouldn't exist. And we were dealing with a "crafty" guild of thieves and so I was on high-alert. So he described all these porters loading crates in and out of this warehouse. We were in the middle of nowhere - why is there a warehouse here? What could they be loading? So I went into the warehouse and took a look around and the GM says it's filled with crates. The GM started to get nervous as I went to a crate when no one was looking - and asked "What's in the crate?"

The GM said "Uhh... nothing is in the crate."
I'm like.... 'whaaaaat'? Nothing is in the crate?!?!? I go check another crate! I pry it open with my short-sword!"
"Nothing is in that crate either."
"Nothing?!?! I go to another crate! I open it!"
"There's nothing in that crate either. Look there's nothing in any of the crates. There's nothing in the other warehouse either!"

Then I start freaking out - because suddenly I start thinking the Thieves Guild has set up a trap for us and built this fake-outpost to get us. I'm telling the rest of the group to get ready because /Ackbar Voice "IT'S A TRAP!!!"

Man... the minute you said, "It's a TRAP," you gave him the hook. He coulda sprang it right there and dove into it. Of course then you get into why the whole 'fake warehouse,' but, still...your player gives you a direction to fix your fuckup, that's honey for the bear, man!:-)

I didn't get the impression that Rove's players weren't supposed to interact with the scenes that he described They read like set of things too interact interact and rp with both physically and moodwise. colorful and interesting in a way "Its the morning, the market is crowded and noisy." (to go the other extreme) wouldn't be. The only nit I'd pick is that they were a bit generic but they were just improvised examples.

Quote from: Nexus;937345I didn't get the impression that Rove's players weren't supposed to interact with the scenes that he described They read like set of things too interact interact and rp with both physically and moodwise. colorful and interesting in a way "Its the morning, the market is crowded and noisy." (to go the other extreme) wouldn't be. The only nit I'd pick is that they were a bit generic but they were just improvised examples.

That was my impression as well. A fraction too overdone but these arent just there as immutable constants. But they also arent "plot relevant". Which is what I really like.

The vendor is juggling. Why? Go ask them! Were they a former circus or stage act? Or a relative who they picked it up from. Maybe they are a failed perfomer but still practice some tricks. Maybe they are an assassin whos waiting for a target they have researched and know likes tricks like this and one of those apples is laced with a deadly poison that will kill the victim a few hours later.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937342Some of us are looking for theatrical drama, some I suppose a more mundane/real experience.

Yes, if "mundane" is being a gambler and gunfighter in 1874 New Mexico, or a swashbuckling actor in 1626 Marseille, or captain of an interstellar free trader in Ley Sector in 1103 of the Third Imperium.

Which isn't really very mundane at all, when you think about it.

For someone who prides himself on his prose, Grover, you sure have a way of putting your foot in your mouth a lot.

Quote from: cranebump;937238Well, if you're going to look for advice around here, you have to pay less attention to the gift wrapping, which can be loud, crude, obnoxious, and barely taped up.:-) Fuck it, DON'T ask for advice here. Talk about set in your ways--you are not alone (look at our responses).

Yeah, this is very true. For all the yelling of 'There's NO ONE TRUE WAY', there's a lot of people here to claim their experience is superiour.  Hell, the entire OSR movement is pretty much it, by claiming the 'newer' versions of D&D being wrong, edition warring is 'One True Wayism' dialed up to broken, it's everywhere in this forum.  Sometimes, it's a wonder why anyone actually gets long here.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;937352Yes, if "mundane" is being a gambler and gunfighter in 1874 New Mexico, or a swashbuckling actor in 1626 Marseille, or captain of an interstellar free trader in Ley Sector in 1103 of the Third Imperium.

Which isn't really very mundane at all, when you think about it.

For someone who prides himself on his prose, Grover, you sure have a way of putting your foot in your mouth a lot.

No pride at all, and yes I can see how mundane could be read as a negative. I didn't mean to imply that.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937356No pride at all, and yes I can see how mundane could be read as a negative. I didn't mean to imply that.

I had actually forgotten that mundane also means dull. I've always used it in the context of things which are not arcane nor divine nor cosmic.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937230I enjoy open debate but the tact less worms that just bitch, moan and badmouth just piss me off.

Please don't take it out on the hostages! Or the teddy bears!

Quote from: rgrove0172;937251One thing you are absolutely right about is my getting a thicker skin.

Don't wear the hostages! Leave the lotion in the basket!

Quote from: rgrove0172;937256Ive been pretty picky about who was invited to games and perhaps that's been the secret or maybe its been just blind luck but my players have generally been on the same page as me when it comes to many of the elements of GM style I have raised here.

THIS is a really good thing.

You should count yourself lucky and focus your energies on getting more players who fit in with your team.

Quote from: Ashakyre;937307You walk into a thread. It's a shit show.

Kudos. That was funny.

Quote from: tenbones;937338I'm not going to re-write your flavor text.

Wimp!

Quote from: tenbones;937338The GM said "Uhh... nothing is in the crate."
I'm like.... 'whaaaaat'? Nothing is in the crate?!?!? I go check another crate! I pry it open with my short-sword!"
"Nothing is in that crate either."
"Nothing?!?! I go to another crate! I open it!"
"There's nothing in that crate either. Look there's nothing in any of the crates. There's nothing in the other warehouse either!"

That is an awesome story!! I am absolutely stealing this idea. Extremely cool trap setup.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937342Some of us are looking for theatrical drama, some I suppose a more mundane/real experience. Should have established that at the beginning and avoided a lot of consternation.

Agreed.

There are players who enjoy boxed text. The entire module business and the Living Campaigns are all about GMs diligently reading words out of boxes and those are extremely popular with many, many gamers.

One of the greatest compliments to my GMing was when a player, who is a cop IRL, told me that the way I describe the streets of 2080 Manhattan and the people you encounter there during patrol is almost exactly like what he encounters during his shifts, and the cops were a lot like some of his colleagues.
Except with slightly less crazies during the night shifts, but I guess my random tables just didn't assume enough of those, or my dice were acting out;).

Also, I must start a "list of things to add to the next game I Referee", because the warehouse with empty crates totally should be included:D!

Quote from: rgrove0172;937356No pride at all, and yes I can see how mundane could be read as a negative. I didn't mean to imply that.

Some people on this thread seem determined to read everything you say as uncharitably as possible.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937231You are suspecting wrong. I'm asking questions to expand my admittedly narrow GM experience base, having done things a certain way for many years. I want to hear why others do what they do, I don't particularly need to hear how badly my way sucks or why I am a troll for presenting it.

Okay, but you also know your audience. Its very clear by now that you prefer a narrative approach to gaming. I'm not going to say there's anything wrong with that, but its basically counter to this board's character. The posters responding to you here, on the whole, are not interested in (or in some cases generally antagonistic towards) this style of play. So is it that you actually want to give up your style of GMing and try an immersive/"world in motion" approach? Because I'm not seeing that as entirely likely. It runs counter to your answers to the questions I asked in the previous thread, and in general you seem to regard advice that comes from the WIM PoV as a burden. I'm not saying several of the responses your getting aren't hostile, but I also cannot see you not realizing that you are courting that at this point. You know, frex, Vulmea and Gronan's playstyles and what little regard they hold for other playstyles (granted, largely exaggerated no doubt for comedic effect), but if you arent intent on adopting their approach, why are you conversing with them at all? And to get back to knowing your audience, you must understand, regardless of the disparate levels of animosity, Vulmea and Gronan's tastes in regards to gaming are indicative of the general population of therpgsite as a whole. I wouldn't bother starting a thread on this site about playing Sorensen's The Farm, anymore than I'd bother going to the 9th Age forums to start a conversation on the finer points of playing Age of Sigmar unless I was just trolling, (which to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't put it past me - I enjoy a good game of Devil's Advocate as much as any 4chantard).

So specifically in regards to this forum, you could phrase your question-based threads to specifically court advice on the narrative style of GMing you prefer,  you could couch them in terms that specifically engenders advice in regards to how to most effectively approach things from a "World-in-Motion" perspective, but as it is, it seems like you don't know what you want

Quote from: Nexus;937378Some people on this thread seem determined to read everything you say as uncharitably as possible.

Oh, Nexus, please.

Grover repeatedly frames his posts with false dichotomies misrepresenting or distorting differing opinions. Here're two quick examples.

Quote from: rgrove0172;936334I was told by some guy that GMs were story tellers, and I believed him. Its the very reason I wanted to GM in the first place. Without it, your just a referee and a match maker (setting up crap for thee players to fuck up). No thanks.

Quote from: rgrove0172;935478A good GM is never surprised. Its his world and its his job to provide the surprises, not be taken by them.

There are many more. And I'm far from the only person to notice.

Quote from: Omega;937288Then stop backhanding other peoples styles in just about every thread you start? Really. You did in this one, the one before, the one before that and so on. Sometimes again later in the thread. Not to mention the deliberate baiting thats creeped into alot of your posts which isnt helping matters at all. You are conditioning people to take a defensive or negative stance because you slip in an attack either at the start or later in. And you do that even to the people who agree with some point or are openly discussing the idea rather than knee-jerk reactions.

It's why I think Grover is a troll intent on creating shitstorms, not a gamer interested in discussion. It's just too coincidental that this gamer who claims to be so insular in his gaming group and habits shits out a refereeing advice quote from Torchbearer on this forum, and that he so often manages to distort the views of others in such specific ways. A couple of times can be an accident, but repeated passive-aggressive swipes? I don't buy it.

I don't think Grover posts in good faith, but whatever - my opinion and $5 will get you a frappachino, and no one should give a wet fart what I think about anything anyway. If it's not intentional, then it's an inadvertent verbal tic by which he is ill-served. Either way, he's not a 'victim,' Nexus. You and I've gone back and forth on this topic without it devolving into ratfucking one other in the ear - that Grover produces such a strong response is a function of what he posts.