Here's how I'm going to re-write the scene of Rgrover...unless I felt like giving a detailed description. I usually don't, unless I want to help them imagine an exotic locale:).

"The morning sun is rising up over a market already in full swing. All the merchants who can are trying to attract your - and everybody else's - attention to their goods, using all kind of "ad slogans" and tricks, jusggling and singing included with some rare individuals. You see boots, apples and baked good vendors near you, and of course there's all kinds of wares for sale nearby."

Does it lose some of the details? Yes. The players can make those up on the spot and ask me to confirm or deny, or they can ask me to give more details if they plan on doing something with those details.

Quote from: jeff37923;937206So each one of these merchants is a Bard?

Everything but the juggling is just called "attracting customers" at some places. And the juggling might be called the same way, too, depending on location and wares sold;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;937001"Brevity is the soul of wit."

There is also a difference between "setting the scene when you first encounter it" and "running off at the mouth continuously."

There is also a difference between "giving a bit of colorful description to an exceptional combat moment" and "blathering on like a third rate Conan ripoff on every die roll."

There is also a difference between "twit who loves the sound of his own voice and won't shut up" and "providing extra detail occasionally if somebody asks for it."

Honest question:  Do you run mystery in your games?

Quote from: rgrove0172;937156"The market is alive this morning with dozens of enthusiastic vendors screaming over one another in an effort to attract customers. A leather worker waves a fine looking pair of boots in each hand and sings of a low, low price today only! A fruit peddler cries his apples were picked that very morning and juggles four with some effort as you pass. Further down the street the shrill cry of an old woman beneath a garish green tarpaulin advertises the very best baked goods east of the bridge. Dozens more fill the air in a cacophony of commerce, waking the city from its nighttime slumber."

Quote from: AsenRG;937214"The morning sun is rising up over a market already in full swing. All the merchants who can are trying to attract your - and everybody else's - attention to their goods, using all kind of "ad slogans" and tricks, jusggling and singing included with some rare individuals. You see boots, apples and baked good vendors near you, and of course there's all kinds of wares for sale nearby."

Of curiosity, are y'all literally drafting, editing, and rewriting flavor text in prepping your home games?  

I am coming from the angle of my prep maybe including a list of vendors in the market with agendas, and the actual flavor text setting the scene at the table being entirely extemporaneous.  Hence the exact wording the GM uses is unexpectedly less than perfect.

My notes for the market would be something like:

Leather worker:  trying to get coalition of merchants to fight thieves guild extortion
Apple vendor:  front for thieves guild.
Baker:  thieves guild often exhorts into baking poisonous pies

I suggest spending prep on content for the players to interact with and let flavor text be less than perfect at the table.

Quote from: cranebump;937190You post the question, then take issue with the answers you get. Maybe stop posting the question. You overdo your descriptions because that's what you like to do. If your table likes it, fine. None of us are at your table, so who cares what we think?

Back on point: if it's a story you're telling, then give enough to tell the story and move on. A mound of vocabulary and point by point sense details aren't necessary in every scene. One person put, in big, capital letters the word CLARITY in the last post over this subject. There is a tipping point where excessive detail obscures clarity, like flotsam obscuring the waters.

I took issue with Black Vulmea ' drivel and any of the other inflammatory bullshit that substitutes for healthy conversation. I included the quote so that would be understood. I enjoy open debate but the tact less worms that just bitch, moan and badmouth just piss me off.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;937198What reprisal? Its perfectly okay to disagree with any of the assholes here, myself included, and there is absolutely zero consequence to that.

However, what I'm suspecting from these question-based threads is that at least on some level you seem to be looking for validation for your approach to gaming, I just can't seem to understand why.

You are suspecting wrong. I'm asking questions to expand my admittedly narrow GM experience base, having done things a certain way for many years. I want to hear why others do what they do, I don't particularly need to hear how badly my way sucks or why I am a troll for presenting it.

Quote from: Old One Eye;937228Of curiosity, are y'all literally drafting, editing, and rewriting flavor text in prepping your home games?  

I am coming from the angle of my prep maybe including a list of vendors in the market with agendas, and the actual flavor text setting the scene at the table being entirely extemporaneous.  Hence the exact wording the GM uses is unexpectedly less than perfect.

My notes for the market would be something like:

Leather worker:  trying to get coalition of merchants to fight thieves guild extortion
Apple vendor:  front for thieves guild.
Baker:  thieves guild often exhorts into baking poisonous pies

I suggest spending prep on content for the players to interact with and let flavor text be less than perfect at the table.

I've never drafted descriptors, I let them fly. Some are better than others of course.

Quote from: rgrove0172;936992The recent Not so Calm conversation on GM Improv got sidetracked with a lot of discussion on how much descriptive detail various GMs use when relating their games. (and how much players enjoy)

I posted a link to a youtube video where a D&D GM (A trained voice actor is appears after some research) took a heavy narrator approach, describing each scene and even the player's actions as if you were reading them from a book. (IM not saying his stuff was measurable to a well written novel, only that he provided similar detail and drama in his descriptions.) I personally enjoy that kind of GMing and attempt to emulate it in my own games, always have. Sure, there is lots to be left for the player's imagination but I strive to give them plenty to work with and make sure they are at least imagining something very similar to what I am.

I was a little surprised by the intensity of some of the negative reactions. I recall allot of gming advice early on about being descriptive and using description to bring the world to life for your PC both from other more experienced GM and articles in publications like Dragon magazine.

In play, I've found it to be a successful technique. Of course, every descriptions isn't a work of art but players have seemed to appreciate. From the other side of the screen, the games I've like the most have included more description and details.  

QuoteSo do you spend a paragraph describing the old ruins the players just encountered, complete with atmospheric adjectives, cool comparisons and detailed descriptions or do you tell them they are some spooky old ruins and let their brains conjure up what will?

I go for more detail and trying to create and evocative mood and atmosphere that fits the tone of the game I'm running; the genre as well. Some genres are more appropriate for “flowery” descriptions that others and every locale doesn't need them but some basic information on sights, sounds, even smells can go along way towards getting players into the world or the scene.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937156"The market is alive this morning with dozens of enthusiastic vendors screaming over one another in an effort to attract customers. A leather worker waves a fine looking pair of boots in each hand and sings of a low, low price today only! A fruit peddler cries his apples were picked that very morning and juggles four with some effort as you pass. Further down the street the shrill cry of an old woman beneath a garish green tarpaulin advertises the very best baked goods east of the bridge. Dozens more fill the air in a cacophony of commerce, waking the city from its nighttime slumber."
[

That seems like a fine description, evocative and sets a mood but doesn't tell the players how they have to react to the scene. It feels very “alive”.

QuoteIf the GM had simply said "The market is busy and quite loud with a lot of vendors selling their stuff" I suppose the players could have gotten the same idea but doesn't it take away from the gaming experience just a bit?

Or does it?

It would for me.

QuoteIm betting a good percentage of GMs were introduced to gaming with GMs that were great at this sort of thing, probably the reason they took it upon themselves to be GMs in the first place.

It is part of why I like to GM.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937232I've never drafted descriptors, I let them fly. Some are better than others of course.

I admit I have jotted down descriptive notes ahead of time when I felt a details was really important/interesting/cool and didn't want to forget it. Or because a cool idea struck me.

Quote from: Old One Eye;937228Leather worker:  trying to get coalition of merchants to fight thieves guild extortion
Apple vendor:  front for thieves guild.
Baker:  thieves guild often exhorts into baking poisonous pies

I suggest spending prep on content for the players to interact with and let flavor text be less than perfect at the table.

And there it is. Three doors into the adventure. Nice illustration (my notes look very similar--a lot of "NPC is looking to..." or their aim is, and etc.). If anyone wants to add detail on top of that, more power to them, but at least everything has a purpose in some fashion.

On grove's comment about why people went into GM'ing, I didn't go into it because I was so much better at description. I was the only one willing to do the prep and devour the rules. That's how it worked with a LOT of our games--I was the one who knew the damned rules, because everyone else was too lazy to read them.:-/

A little bit of this, a little bit of that. It all depends on the situation. Sometimes, flowery descriptions make sense. Other times, brevity is more important.

But I never, ever, ever read from block text. Ever.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937231You are suspecting wrong. I'm asking questions to expand my admittedly narrow GM experience base, having done things a certain way for many years. I want to hear why others do what they do, I don't particularly need to hear how badly my way sucks or why I am a troll for presenting it.

Well, if you're going to look for advice around here, you have to pay less attention to the gift wrapping, which can be loud, crude, obnoxious, and barely taped up.:-) Fuck it, DON'T ask for advice here. Talk about set in your ways--you are not alone (look at our responses).

You say you like the debate, but, honestly, I don't think you do. Looking at things as debate puts you in the position of having to defend an assertion. Now, you frame these threads as "questions," but every question is an invitation for an opinion, and they flow pretty freely here, much in the same manner as a lot of social media (to include the informed, the ill-informed, and those who just like to shout). When there are no consequences to the exchange, i.e., we're not having a ftf conversation, and so cannot be as readily held accountable for our bullshit, you'll tend to get more of it (bullshit begets bullshit).

If you want to gauge your style, may I suggest putting polls out there? You posed the idea that folks went into GM'ing because of some perceived skill at description or story telling (I think). It would be interesting to see if that's the case around here (I really don't think it is). This thread could've started with a poll concerning the amount of detail people like.  In any case, coming in and admitting you have a narrow GM base, then setting yourself up to constantly defend it isn't going to achieve very much, unless you can find some nuggets you can use (outside the inevitable shit nuggets--though some gold may be covered in all that shit).

Ask yourself--is this about expanding your skill set? Or are you, like a lot of us, I suspect, going to do things the way you do them, because that's what works for YOU? If it's the latter, then consider all of these discussions as what they are, metaphorically -- a bill set before the current American Congress, who feel no need to come to a consensus. Because that's sort of where we end up.

Just a reminder--you're not "doing it wrong." You're just doing what you do. If you think it'd be worth it to get out of your comfort zone a bit, my suggestion isn't to take a bunch of pieces of advice from here and glue them in your frame. If you want to get out of your zone, pick a system that you think is anathema to your style, and try to run that (btw, been there done that [thanks 3.5, 4E, AD&D, Gurps, Hero System, etc., etc. etc.]). Otherwise, just play your goddamned game, man, with players who like your style. I've seen more than one responding to your questions who look like they'd fit right in. Hell, I'd play at your table, grove, because you seem fair and thoughtful, and dedicated (though I'd probably fuck with you a LOT).:-)

P.S. If you're sincere about getting out of your box, try Freebooters on the Frontier. It allows your players some narrative control, and world creation is whole cloth. Use the Perilous Wilds with it. It's Dungeon World, but a bit more gritty. If you want big, damned heroes, go with DW. I suggest this because I don't feel like tour issue is detail. It's the hands firmly on the wheel. The srd is here.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937230I took issue with Black Vulmea ' drivel and any of the other inflammatory bullshit that substitutes for healthy conversation. I included the quote so that would be understood. I enjoy open debate but the tact less worms that just bitch, moan and badmouth just piss me off.

That's what the ignore list is for. If the bullshit is really getting to you that bad, filter it out. Why let some anonymous bullshit affect you so much.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937156Well its not often I completely disagree here, and even more rare that I admit it for fear of reprisal but I have to balk at the notion that every description given by the GM has to be important, or mean something. First off if the players get wind of this they can zero in on things when in reality there would be no such sense that the one thing they notice is any more important than anything else. In addition, I have never liked the approach that the game world exists strictly for the whim of the players, that everything that happens must be associated with them, anything they are not involved with or don't experience just, well, doesn't happen and certainly isn't worth mentioning.

When working out settings I often have things going on that have nothing to do with the players, unless they should happen to take notice. When they look around they may see some of this, along with a hundred other things of note that have no baring on them at all. The purpose of some of that may be to entice them to look closer or maybe used to just give them a good feel for the scene.

"The market is alive this morning with dozens of enthusiastic vendors screaming over one another in an effort to attract customers. A leather worker waves a fine looking pair of boots in each hand and sings of a low, low price today only! A fruit peddler cries his apples were picked that very morning and juggles four with some effort as you pass. Further down the street the shrill cry of an old woman beneath a garish green tarpaulin advertises the very best baked goods east of the bridge. Dozens more fill the air in a cacophony of commerce, waking the city from its nighttime slumber."

No critique of the paragraph is necessary, love it, hate it - whatever. It serves to demonstrate how a bit of detail may direct the players (perhaps one of them decides he wants some boots, or is hungry) but may also simply paint a scene for them to imagine more in line with the GM.

If the GM had simply said "The market is busy and quite loud with a lot of vendors selling their stuff" I suppose the players could have gotten the same idea but doesn't it take away from the gaming experience just a bit?

Or does it?

Im betting a good percentage of GMs were introduced to gaming with GMs that were great at this sort of thing, probably the reason they took it upon themselves to be GMs in the first place. Ive had many players over the years claim they would like to run a game but cant "tell the story" well enough in their opinion. If you used to run your games with lots of descriptive detail and changed to something similar. Why? What advantage did it give you?

IM curious as Ive heard some claim exactly that. Over the years the left the flowery stuff behind. Maybe Im missing something...my ears are open!

Different strokes but I think the first paragraph is going to get tuned out by a lot of players. I used to GM that way (particularly in my Ravenloft campaigns). Over time I shifted to speaking more in my regular conversational style. I find that I personally start losing interest when it feels like the GM is constructing paragraphs of description and emulating the boxed text style of delivery. That said, if my players are more receptive to longer descriptions, I'd happily use them. It doesn't have to be so short that it only conveys the market is busy and people are selling stuff. But you can give examples without a full paragraph of description. I'd say I try to stick to one to two sentences. But it also isn't a rule. If I need more room I will take more room. What I don't do any more is strive for something that feels like prose.

It depends. I've used quite a bit of description before. Nowadays I'd be more inclined to state the dimensions of the room, any visible contents, and then let Generic game group 5968 get on with the murderhoboing. I don't want to get accused of being a storygamer by including needless things like roleplay and plot. No one cares anyway, they just want loot.

Quote from: cranebump;937235And there it is. Three doors into the adventure. Nice illustration (my notes look very similar--a lot of "NPC is looking to..." or their aim is, and etc.). If anyone wants to add detail on top of that, more power to them, but at least everything has a purpose in some fashion.

On grove's comment about why people went into GM'ing, I didn't go into it because I was so much better at description. I was the only one willing to do the prep and devour the rules. That's how it worked with a LOT of our games--I was the one who knew the damned rules, because everyone else was too lazy to read them.:-/

Yes, that's probably what determined most GMs, the most enthusiastic member of the group that would actually buy the game and read it. I think the creative spirit had something to do with it too though, world building and all that.

Quote from: cranebump;937238Well, if you're going to look for advice around here, you have to pay less attention to the gift wrapping, which can be loud, crude, obnoxious, and barely taped up.:-) Fuck it, DON'T ask for advice here. Talk about set in your ways--you are not alone (look at our responses).

You say you like the debate, but, honestly, I don't think you do. Looking at things as debate puts you in the position of having to defend an assertion. Now, you frame these threads as "questions," but every question is an invitation for an opinion, and they flow pretty freely here, much in the same manner as a lot of social media (to include the informed, the ill-informed, and those who just like to shout). When there are no consequences to the exchange, i.e., we're not having a ftf conversation, and so cannot be as readily held accountable for our bullshit, you'll tend to get more of it (bullshit begets bullshit).

If you want to gauge your style, may I suggest putting polls out there? You posed the idea that folks went into GM'ing because of some perceived skill at description or story telling (I think). It would be interesting to see if that's the case around here (I really don't think it is). This thread could've started with a poll concerning the amount of detail people like.  In any case, coming in and admitting you have a narrow GM base, then setting yourself up to constantly defend it isn't going to achieve very much, unless you can find some nuggets you can use (outside the inevitable shit nuggets--though some gold may be covered in all that shit).

Ask yourself--is this about expanding your skill set? Or are you, like a lot of us, I suspect, going to do things the way you do them, because that's what works for YOU? If it's the latter, then consider all of these discussions as what they are, metaphorically -- a bill set before the current American Congress, who feel no need to come to a consensus. Because that's sort of where we end up.

Just a reminder--you're not "doing it wrong." You're just doing what you do. If you think it'd be worth it to get out of your comfort zone a bit, my suggestion isn't to take a bunch of pieces of advice from here and glue them in your frame. If you want to get out of your zone, pick a system that you think is anathema to your style, and try to run that (btw, been there done that [thanks 3.5, 4E, AD&D, Gurps, Hero System, etc., etc. etc.]). Otherwise, just play your goddamned game, man, with players who like your style. I've seen more than one responding to your questions who look like they'd fit right in. Hell, I'd play at your table, grove, because you seem fair and thoughtful, and dedicated (though I'd probably fuck with you a LOT).:-)

P.S. If you're sincere about getting out of your box, try Freebooters on the Frontier. It allows your players some narrative control, and world creation is whole cloth. Use the Perilous Wilds with it. It's Dungeon World, but a bit more gritty. If you want big, damned heroes, go with DW. I suggest this because I don't feel like tour issue is detail. It's the hands firmly on the wheel. The srd is here.

One thing you are absolutely right about is my getting a thicker skin. When someone comes off snarky and demeaning I get frustrated with the whole idea of a forum and am tempted to just log off in a fit. I hate confrontations and pretty much respond this way in real life, not having the time or energy for anyone not willing to form their argument civilly. Its def something I need to get used to here, seeing a condescending and belittling comment as an invitation to frame my argument differently rather than going off in huff.