Quote from: rgrove0172;937156"The market is alive this morning with dozens of enthusiastic vendors screaming over one another in an effort to attract customers. A leather worker waves a fine looking pair of boots in each hand and sings of a low, low price today only! A fruit peddler cries his apples were picked that very morning and juggles four with some effort as you pass. Further down the street the shrill cry of an old woman beneath a garish green tarpaulin advertises the very best baked goods east of the bridge. Dozens more fill the air in a cacophony of commerce, waking the city from its nighttime slumber."

'And then the EARS, I get the IDEA, get ON with it."

That paragraph is horribly overwritten, and any book that had that in it would most likely be utter garbage.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937156If the GM had simply said "The market is busy and quite loud with a lot of vendors selling their stuff"

 I suppose the players could have gotten the same idea but doesn't it take away from the gaming experience just a bit?

Or does it?

No.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say "Fuck no."

Take that first paragraph of yours to any writers' workshop and I'd bet my own weight in beer it gets ripped to shreds.  Overwriting is real, overwriting is bad, and overtalking in an RPG is just as awful.

And if I have to be told that a busy market has boots, I'm too stupid to shit unassisted.

"The market is already lively as mid morning approaches.  It's crowded and you hear vendors hawking just about everything imaginable."

"Is there a cobbler?"

"Why, yes.  In fact, several."

And my players have already made a decision while yours are still listening to you run off at the mouth.

I see my job as the GM to be the character's senses. Sight, smell, hearing, sensation etc. I also pick my players for the quality to meet me halfway there with their imagination. I provide details enough for them to filling the gaps themselves, with the "rule" being I suppose that if I want them to pick up on a certain mood, aesthetic, or environ than I provide as much description as is necessary to create that. I say rule, but this isn't a hard and fast approach, or really anything I think about, its just how I GM. I'm not there to narrate a novel to my players, and if I'm playing I'm aware that overly excessive narration can lead to boredom. I'm not there to be a passive audience to a GM's narrative inclinations, and I wouldn't want to subject my players to the same.

I tend to use a lot of art, often drawing sketches at the time as required. I prefer the back and forth of answering players questions rather than trying to pre-anticipate any question they might have.

But none of this is stuff I really think about, in a meta sense. I just do what needs to be done for the sake of the game.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937156"The market is alive this morning with dozens of enthusiastic vendors screaming over one another in an effort to attract customers. A leather worker waves a fine looking pair of boots in each hand and sings of a low, low price today only! A fruit peddler cries his apples were picked that very morning and juggles four with some effort as you pass. Further down the street the shrill cry of an old woman beneath a garish green tarpaulin advertises the very best baked goods east of the bridge. Dozens more fill the air in a cacophony of commerce, waking the city from its nighttime slumber."

I have no problem with this whatsoever.  Depending on why my PC is in town and walking through the market, this gives me plenty of things with which to interact and attempt to work toward my advantage.  My only hope is that you stay true to what this description of the market says about the town as a whole.  (For example, I now know that the town is very quiet at night with little activity.  I suspect there is a grudge against the townsfolk across the bridge.  Etc.)

Quote from: rgrove0172;937168Moderator please close the fucking thread if you please.

Not how it works.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937156Well its not often I completely disagree here, and even more rare that I admit it for fear of reprisal but I have to balk at the notion that every description given by the GM has to be important, or mean something.

If the GM had simply said "The market is busy and quite loud with a lot of vendors selling their stuff" I suppose the players could have gotten the same idea but doesn't it take away from the gaming experience just a bit?

Or does it?

Im betting a good percentage of GMs were introduced to gaming with GMs that were great at this sort of thing, probably the reason they took it upon themselves to be GMs in the first place. Ive had many players over the years claim they would like to run a game but cant "tell the story" well enough in their opinion. If you used to run your games with lots of descriptive detail and changed to something similar. Why? What advantage did it give you?

IM curious as Ive heard some claim exactly that. Over the years the left the flowery stuff behind. Maybe Im missing something...my ears are open!

1: Youd be absolutely right too. Every description in no way has to be relevant. It should be accurate. But in no way relevant to the PCs. Sometimes the kid standing at the corner with a flower is just a kid standing at a corner with a flower. Why is the kid there? Because shes waiting for her parents. None of which the PCs may ever know past that they saw a kid with a flower over there. Its in the background because the PCs are in a town and that town is doing its thing regardless of wether the PCs exist or not. Its a bit of colour to the locale. Used sparingly its a great tool to bring the game world to life in the players imaginations. (Assuming you dont have sub-morons as players.)

2: To me its a little too short a descriptor. But I can allways get details by asking the GM. Some like that brevity at the start and then quiz the GM for the rest. Others prefer the GM spoon feed them all the details in detail. And of course everything in between. It doesnt take away from the gaming experience as usually the assumption is the players will then ask for details. YMMV. Some players just cant engage that. They need everything up front. They cant think of what detail to ask.

3: Depends on the player. Really.

4: Define "tell the story" because when some say that they mean "describe whats going on and react to what the players do and then build on whats gone before." and others mean "a plotted story with a defined and allready set beginning middle and end." Switching one direction or the other from more to less or less to more could be the GM notice the players werent enjoying too much, or too little, and adapted accordingly. Or the GM over time gained more confidence or developed a style that worked with more, or less, description.

5: It may be that they didnt really leave it behind. They just adapted a style that is more Q&A than data blitzkrieg. I used to be a really brief describer of things. Way too brief in my opinion. Over time I hit on the method I described a few posts ago and it works fine. Over time I got more descriptive untill I hit a sort of equilibrium. Id lay good odds others started from the other end of the spectrum and over time cut back untill they hit their own equilibrium. And often that is influenced by the players. If you have a Q&A style group then you'll probably drift to shorter lead ins and then fan out from there. But if you had a group really into the info blitzkrieg then you may adapt gradually to be more verbose.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937156"The market is alive this morning with dozens of enthusiastic vendors screaming over one another in an effort to attract customers. A leather worker waves a fine looking pair of boots in each hand and sings of a low, low price today only! A fruit peddler cries his apples were picked that very morning and juggles four with some effort as you pass. Further down the street the shrill cry of an old woman beneath a garish green tarpaulin advertises the very best baked goods east of the bridge. Dozens more fill the air in a cacophony of commerce, waking the city from its nighttime slumber."

I happened to have a few people over today going over the Conan boardgame, so for the fuck of it, we did a little impromptu roleplaying.  Last time we left off, they were getting ready for a scouting trip to look for secret/underground ways into the city they are staying in, so we started with them doing anything they needed in the city to prepare.  I read them that text word for word.

One of the players went over to the fruit peddler and said "If you can juggle 5 my good man, I'll buy them, if you can juggle 6, I'll buy them all." {The player said he'd been to bazaars from the mid-east to the far-east while in the Navy and never saw a peddler juggle his fruit, so he was seeing if the guy was a thief or something}.
Another went over to the old woman and said "I'll have a loaf, mother, if you can tell me who bakes the best bread west of the bridge."{Just roleplaying, plus he's trying to get into Alchemy, so trying to talk to anyone who might know herbalists, distillers, makers of culinary supplies, etc.  Plus old women know all the gossip}
The other two went to go see if they could find a good price on a draft horse.

Critiques specifically on the text...

• screaming's a bit much, shouting, hailing etc would be better.
• "cacophony of commerce" they said just sounds like bad writing (they were glad I didn't write it)
• "waking the city from its nighttime slumber" was jarring, earliest things are the docks usually, or other transportation, fisherman, drovers, drivers, etc. as they get a start on the day, then the primary food markets, meat, fish, bread etc...  by the time the general market gets going, the vendors have been up for several hours and so have their customers.  Only a noble could wake to a general market in full cry.
• in fact the fruit peddler says his apples were picked that very morning, so it can't be first thing in the morning when he's selling them in the city.  If you're going to throw extra detail in, make sure it isn't jarring.  You kind of ran into this problem with the other morning scene too.
• none of them thought calling out a couple of specific vendors was too much, it was the literary embellishment as if you were writing for the piece to be entertaining in and of itself that was too much.
• there seems to be more than just a desire to convey information to players about the campaign in an interesting or entertaining manner, it's some kind of a performance

So...too much writing, not enough descriptive GMing.  You're still being Master of Ceremonies and trying to make your exact mental picture the one for the players instead of giving them some spice to kick their own imaginations into high gear.  You're up around 11, we need you at about an 8 tops.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937168Jesus people, is there a question I can post without all the whining for God's sake?

Moderator please close the fucking thread if you please.

You post the question, then take issue with the answers you get. Maybe stop posting the question. You overdo your descriptions because that's what you like to do. If your table likes it, fine. None of us are at your table, so who cares what we think?

Back on point: if it's a story you're telling, then give enough to tell the story and move on. A mound of vocabulary and point by point sense details aren't necessary in every scene. One person put, in big, capital letters the word CLARITY in the last post over this subject. There is a tipping point where excessive detail obscures clarity, like flotsam obscuring the waters.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937156Well its not often I completely disagree here, and even more rare that I admit it for fear of reprisal but I have to balk at the notion that every description given by the GM has to be important, or mean something. First off if the players get wind of this they can e looking pair of boots in each hand and sings of a low, low price today only! A fruit peddler cries his apples were picked that very morning and juggles four with some effort as you pass. Further down the street the shrill cry of an old woman beneath a garish green tarpaulin advertises the very best baked  in reality there would be no such sense that the one thing they notice is any more important than anything else. In addition, I have never liked the approach that the game world exists strictly for the whim of the players, that everything that happens must be associated with them, anything they are not involved with or don't experience just, well, doesn't happen and certainly isn't worth mentioning.

This is the heart of your problem. If you're "telling a story" then the word you choose to tell it have to have meaning and purpose in driving the story forward, otherwise why include them? That's storytelling 101. Everything else is self indulgence.

Granted, it's a game, and I guess not everyone the PCs meet HAS to mean something, but it's sure fucking-A better when they do. What's the point of the shrill-yelling woman? You pointed her out, so maybe I should talk to her? Or am I gonna strike up a conversation that leads nowhere? Does she know anything important to your story, or are we just channeling background noise?  The apple juggler. Is that gonna be a thing? Are was that "just some detail." Do I need to rob him to make him significant?

Why is what you say important? Because every person, every thing you toss into your campaign is a player invitation to some aspect of the story, yours and (especially) theirs. Do you really want to waste all that window dressing? Because that's what's going to happen if not everything you say means something. And as long as all that verbiage is tied to nothing significant, you're going to keep allowing yourself to trowel it out there, throwing out dead ends, whether anyone likes it or not.

Quote from: cranebump;937192Why is what you say important? Because every person, every thing you toss into your campaign is a player invitation to some aspect of the story, yours and (especially) theirs. Do you really want to waste all that window dressing? Because that's what's going to happen if not everything you say means something. And as long as all that verbiage is tied to nothing significant, you're going to keep allowing yourself to trowel it out there, throwing out dead ends, whether anyone likes it or not.

I disagree here to a degree. Window dressing can be useful. When used in moderation. Not everything has to be relevant as noted in my post up above. But too much and the relevant details, or the details at all can get lost in the wall of verbosity.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937156even more rare that I admit it for fear of reprisal

What reprisal? Its perfectly okay to disagree with any of the assholes here, myself included, and there is absolutely zero consequence to that.

However, what I'm suspecting from these question-based threads is that at least on some level you seem to be looking for validation for your approach to gaming, I just can't seem to understand why.

Quote from: CRKrueger;937186So...too much writing, not enough descriptive GMing.

Never read aloud boxed text; it will pretty much always fall flat.  Always change it to your own words.

T1 Village of Hommlet is my favorite adventure module, but I would never read the canned intro aloud.

Quote from: rgrove0172;936992So do you spend a paragraph describing the old ruins the players just encountered, complete with atmospheric adjectives, cool comparisons and detailed descriptions or do you tell them they are some spooky old ruins and let their brains conjure up what will?

I often use an analogy in many areas of life of trying to put out a fire when you don't know the difference between gasoline and water. When I express concern over the possibility of people making matters worse by taking action to point out that inaction is sometimes preferable, I find a lot of people brush it off by saying, "Well, you need to strike a balance." Of course, even a small amount of gasoline will fuel the fire, while excessive amounts of water won't fail to extinguish it.

The point here is this: As I see it, the heart of what you ask is qualitative, not quantitative. And no, I don't mean quality comes from doing funny voices really well and having a sophisticated and even poetic vocabulary. What I find important in a description is it needs to have what might crudely be termed a call to action. The iconic devils heads from Tomb of Horrors aren't memorable because of the magic of Gygaxian prose. It encourages foolish adventurers to stick their arms in its mouth! Something about the description should fuel players and/or characters motivations. The number of words, or even style this requires can vary dramatically on a case-by-case basis.

If you're married to the aesthetic of the dramatic, or married to keeping everything short and to the point, there will certainly be times your descriptions aren't good as they could have been. Often times, blocks of spoken text are just wasted because there is no call to action within it. Other times, there may be one or more calls to action, but excess words serve as a distraction from that. On the other hand, "Skip the flavor text, B.A." is definitely not a healthy mode of thinking for players regardless of whatever their precious "preferences" may be. If I take the time to mention the room is lit by torches on the wall, it means you can actually take a torch from the wall and burn someone with it. Strictly speaking, it's not flavor text since it can impact the "game." And it doesn't just stop there. Atmosphere, I've learned, is extremely important. But again, atmosphere is not produced by dramatic flair. It comes from inviting the players to become involved.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937168Jesus people, is there a question I can post without all the whining for God's sake?

Nope.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937168Moderator please close the fucking thread if you please.

No way!! This is a good discussion!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;937169"The market is already lively as mid morning approaches.  It's crowded and you hear vendors hawking just about everything imaginable."

This is too generic for me.

Unless we're in Planescape's Sigil, I focus on the fact that fantasy faux-medieval markets mostly have shoddy local goods, with rare traders from afar hawking interesting baubles. Also, markets depend on the class, as a market in a peasant quarter is quite different than in the merchant's quarter where prices are in silver, not coppers.

For me, the description of the market needs to include factors that make this market unique to the setting locale. AKA, my faux-Greek market in Mazes & Minotaurs has tables stacked with feta cheese, bevies of veiled dancers spinning about and a blind prophet begging alms for Zeus in contrast to my scavenger's market in Gamma World where a plant creature is selling steaming butchered meat, a four armed mutant carries jugs of gray water and a half broken bot stumbles from stall to stall collecting rent.

Some players certainly don't need prompts to jump into the scene, but most players do.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;937174I see my job as the GM to be the character's senses. Sight, smell, hearing, sensation etc.

Absolutely true!!

Quote from: Tristram Evans;937174I tend to use a lot of art, often drawing sketches at the time as required.

Gronan mentioned this earlier too. Evocative art - either drawn or just downloaded - are great for getting everyone's imagination on the same page.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;937178Not how it works.

Quote from: Lunamancer;937202What I find important in a description is it needs to have what might crudely be termed a call to action. . . . [A]tmosphere is not produced by dramatic flair. It comes from inviting the players to become involved.

That's an intriguing take.

I can see something of this in my approach to setting a scene - call it 'first impressions' versus the 'lingering look.' Setting the scene invites the players and their characters to inquire, rather than dumping exposition on them.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937156"The market is alive this morning with dozens of enthusiastic vendors screaming over one another in an effort to attract customers. A leather worker waves a fine looking pair of boots in each hand and sings of a low, low price today only! A fruit peddler cries his apples were picked that very morning and juggles four with some effort as you pass. Further down the street the shrill cry of an old woman beneath a garish green tarpaulin advertises the very best baked goods east of the bridge. Dozens more fill the air in a cacophony of commerce, waking the city from its nighttime slumber."

So each one of these merchants is a Bard?