Quote from: ArrozConLeche;937241That's what the ignore list is for. If the bullshit is really getting to you that bad, filter it out. Why let some anonymous bullshit affect you so much.

Uggh..direct hit, well said.

Quote from: Krimson;937244It depends. I've used quite a bit of description before. Nowadays I'd be more inclined to state the dimensions of the room, any visible contents, and then let Generic game group 5968 get on with the murderhoboing. I don't want to get accused of being a storygamer by including needless things like roleplay and plot. No one cares anyway, they just want loot.

I know what you mean but some do care, some care a lot. Ive had many players over the years and consider myself incredibly lucky Ive never experienced the dreaded 'murder hobo' or many of the other nightmarish player personaes spoken about so lovingly. Ive been pretty picky about who was invited to games and perhaps that's been the secret or maybe its been just blind luck but my players have generally been on the same page as me when it comes to many of the elements of GM style I have raised here.

This thread for example - most, if not all, of my players have been avid readers of fiction and tend to dig into books related to the game we are about to embark on or are already enjoying. When we come to the table we more or less expect a similar experience to what we have been reading, complete with overly used adjectives and tediously descriptive prose.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937256I know what you mean but some do care, some care a lot. Ive had many players over the years and consider myself incredibly lucky Ive never experienced the dreaded 'murder hobo' or many of the other nightmarish player personaes spoken about so lovingly. Ive been pretty picky about who was invited to games and perhaps that's been the secret or maybe its been just blind luck but my players have generally been on the same page as me when it comes to many of the elements of GM style I have raised here.

This thread for example - most, if not all, of my players have been avid readers of fiction and tend to dig into books related to the game we are about to embark on or are already enjoying. When we come to the table we more or less expect a similar experience to what we have been reading, complete with overly used adjectives and tediously descriptive prose.

The drawback is sure you can get rid of all storygame elements from an RPG, and then realize you don't actually need a DM anymore. And then eventually people realize that what you have left is a board game, so you might as well just play a tactical combat game or a video game. I don't mind roleplaying but I'm not going to waste my time on things if the players just want to fight stuff. I've even had players in the past that could not grok the concept of RP. They would look at you like you were an eight year old girl wanting to play house. This is probably why most of the people I used to play D&D with now just play video games.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937256This thread for example - most, if not all, of my players have been avid readers of fiction and tend to dig into books related to the game we are about to embark on or are already enjoying. When we come to the table we more or less expect a similar experience to what we have been reading, complete with overly used adjectives and tediously descriptive prose.

I think a lot of people here started in a similar place. That was the zeitgeist when I was in highschool for example. I spent years doing exactly what you describe. But over time, I found this created a lot of problems for us at the table and the two mediums just don't jive all that well if you try to bring it in like that. I am sure it still works for plenty of people. I've just found, the less I worry about making games feel like a novel, the more I tend to enjoy them.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937256I know what you mean but some do care, some care a lot. Ive had many players over the years and consider myself incredibly lucky Ive never experienced the dreaded 'murder hobo' or many of the other nightmarish player personaes spoken about so lovingly. Ive been pretty picky about who was invited to games and perhaps that's been the secret or maybe its been just blind luck but my players have generally been on the same page as me when it comes to many of the elements of GM style I have raised here.

This thread for example - most, if not all, of my players have been avid readers of fiction and tend to dig into books related to the game we are about to embark on or are already enjoying. When we come to the table we more or less expect a similar experience to what we have been reading, complete with overly used adjectives and tediously descriptive prose.

That's been it for ny groups. The game just felt more fun when they felt like a novel or short story or movie. Our Star Wars d6 game was chockful of cinematic elements and structure and its one the participants still talk about fondly decades later.

Quote from: AsenRG;937214Everything but the juggling is just called "attracting customers" at some places. And the juggling might be called the same way, too, depending on location and wares sold;).

Makes me think more of a fair or festival than a regular market. Perhaps the party walked in on a local fair? Hence why the place is like this so early.

Quote from: Omega;937284Makes me think more of a fair or festival than a regular market. Perhaps the party walked in on a local fair? Hence why the place is like this so early.

That's one of the things about the other morning description, it's a little off as well.  I think the disconnect is that Grove just comes up with these and they're not meant to give any real information.  They're not a mix of content and color, they're just filler.  Now, that could simply be because he's not tying them to anything from one of his campaigns, so there's no content there.  That could be why it's coming across as self-indulgent because he's just trying to be flavorful without actually having any content to give, so that might be why it's coming off as extraneous, because it is.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937230I enjoy open debate but the tact less worms that just bitch, moan and badmouth just piss me off.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937231You are suspecting wrong. I'm asking questions to expand my admittedly narrow GM experience base, having done things a certain way for many years. I want to hear why others do what they do, I don't particularly need to hear how badly my way sucks or why I am a troll for presenting it.

1+2: Then stop backhanding other peoples styles in just about every thread you start? Really. You did in this one, the one before, the one before that and so on. Sometimes again later in the thread. Not to mention the deliberate baiting thats creeped into alot of your posts which isnt helping matters at all. You are conditioning people to take a defensive or negative stance because you slip in an attack either at the start or later in. And you do that even to the people who agree with some point or are openly discussing the idea rather than knee-jerk reactions.

X: Take a look back in this thread alone and you'll see some of us disagree with the idea of brevity. Or at least too much brevity. Just as there can be too much verbosity.

Quote from: CRKrueger;937285That's one of the things about the other morning description, it's a little off as well.  I think the disconnect is that Grove just comes up with these and they're not meant to give any real information.  They're not a mix of content and color, they're just filler.  Now, that could simply be because he's not tying them to anything from one of his campaigns, so there's no content there.  That could be why it's coming across as self-indulgent because he's just trying to be flavorful without actually having any content to give, so that might be why it's coming off as extraneous, because it is.

Exactly, they are examples, descriptions of nothing. Presented not as much for content but what the represent.

Quote from: Omega;9372881+2: Then stop backhanding other peoples styles in just about every thread you start? Really. You did in this one, the one before, the one before that and so on. Sometimes again later in the thread. Not to mention the deliberate baiting thats creeped into alot of your posts which isnt helping matters at all. You are conditioning people to take a defensive or negative stance because you slip in an attack either at the start or later in. And you do that even to the people who agree with some point or are openly discussing the idea rather than knee-jerk reactions.

X: Take a look back in this thread alone and you'll see some of us disagree with the idea of brevity. Or at least too much brevity. Just as there can be too much verbosity.

I did go back and read, I can't find an attack on my part anywhere, on any thread. I'm missing something or some are misreading the intent of my posts.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937230I took issue with Black Vulmea ' drivel and any of the other inflammatory bullshit that substitutes for healthy conversation.

Grover, your threads both here and Big Purple were dumpster fires long, long, long before I started contributing to them. Don't blame me for your shit-shows.

Quote from: Nexus;937269The game just felt more fun when they felt like a novel or short story or movie.

Whereas what I enjoy most about roleplaying games is how they're different from novels or short stories or movies.

Perhaps the most appreciated compliment I received as a referee came from someone who read our actual play logs on my wiki - he said our game seemed less like a story and more like life itself. That's what I strive for, not three acts, rising and falling action, and a dramatic climax.

You walk into a thread. It's a shit show.

Surveying the scene from top to bottom you observe posters arguing with each other trivially pointless details. You try to make sense of their ramblings, but your eyes glaze over with boredom. It seems the argument has been going on for quite some time, but you can no longer tell what they're talking about. At moments it seems the posters are polite with each other, almost cordial, but all that does is set up a new round of bickering instead of letting the discussion die a natural death.

There doesn't seem to be anything of value here, but you find it hard to pull yourself away, almost like a mysterious force is drawing you into the abyss...

Quote from: Old One Eye;937228Of curiosity, are y'all literally drafting, editing, and rewriting flavor text in prepping your home games?  

Me:D? Not at all, I just rewrote what Rgrove had written, expressly so I could post it in this thread.

Quote from: Omega;937284Makes me think more of a fair or festival than a regular market. Perhaps the party walked in on a local fair? Hence why the place is like this so early.

The line between a market and a fair in a medieval city would probably be thin at best;).

Quote from: Ashakyre;937307You walk into a thread. It's a shit show.

Surveying the scene from top to bottom you observe posters arguing with each other trivially pointless details. You try to make sense of their ramblings, but your eyes glaze over with boredom. It seems the argument has been going on for quite some time, but you can no longer tell what they're talking about. At moments it seems the posters are polite with each other, almost cordial, but all that does is set up a new round of bickering instead of letting the discussion die a natural death.

There doesn't seem to be anything of value here, but you find it hard to pull yourself away, almost like a mysterious force is drawing you into the abyss...

Good one! :D

Shemek

Quote from: CRKrueger;937285That's one of the things about the other morning description, it's a little off as well.  I think the disconnect is that Grove just comes up with these and they're not meant to give any real information.  They're not a mix of content and color, they're just filler.  Now, that could simply be because he's not tying them to anything from one of his campaigns, so there's no content there.  That could be why it's coming across as self-indulgent because he's just trying to be flavorful without actually having any content to give, so that might be why it's coming off as extraneous, because it is.

Quote from: rgrove0172;937303Exactly, they are examples, descriptions of nothing. Presented not as much for content but what the represent.

This really underscores a lot of the issue. See - for those of us that do "World-in-Motion" sandbox games, your scene is just stage-dressing. It's literally scenery painted with words that the PC's aren't supposed to touch, or interact with, just listen to as you shoot them out of your mouth.

I'm not going to re-write your flavor text. But in my games, if I were to give that florid description of a scene, *each* and *every* word is an invitation for interaction. This is why people say keep it short and sweet (SWEET being the thing that entices the players) - for a couple of reasons:

1) It allows the players to envision the scene and hopefully ask questions relevant to *them* via their PC's. Give your players some credit for having imagination. If they ask you - sure go for it. Go full bouquet of 25-cent words if they want clarification. Then you all get what you want.

2) You have to put your money where your mouth is. If you mention it, you should be prepared for the PC to interact with it. If it's not worth interacting with - then it's not worth mentioning. Even still - players will wanna do this and GMing is part of fleshing things out. As CKrueger mentioned in the other thread - this is that Chaos Wave that can lead to wonderful things if you ride it well. It gives your players agency and your world will come alive instead of being 2-dimensional stage-props meant to be seen at a specific angle.

I had a *really* embarrassing experience when I let one of my players, a neophyte GM run a campaign. I mentioned this a while back on another thread...

Basically I was playing and he was doing *exactly* what you were doing: describing a bunch of stuff that seemed curious to me as a player. He described a trading post in a place where by all logic a trading post shouldn't exist. And we were dealing with a "crafty" guild of thieves and so I was on high-alert. So he described all these porters loading crates in and out of this warehouse. We were in the middle of nowhere - why is there a warehouse here? What could they be loading? So I went into the warehouse and took a look around and the GM says it's filled with crates. The GM started to get nervous as I went to a crate when no one was looking - and asked "What's in the crate?"

The GM said "Uhh... nothing is in the crate."
I'm like.... 'whaaaaat'? Nothing is in the crate?!?!? I go check another crate! I pry it open with my short-sword!"
"Nothing is in that crate either."
"Nothing?!?! I go to another crate! I open it!"
"There's nothing in that crate either. Look there's nothing in any of the crates. There's nothing in the other warehouse either!"

Then I start freaking out - because suddenly I start thinking the Thieves Guild has set up a trap for us and built this fake-outpost to get us. I'm telling the rest of the group to get ready because /Ackbar Voice "IT'S A TRAP!!!"

When in reality - the noob GM was just putting in a setpiece with no intention of us doing anything there and I put him on the spot the moment I said "What's in the crate?" He simply couldn't improv enough to tell me what the fuck is in a random crate (which is why for those that aren't good at improv - random tables RULE!)

To this day in my group "What's the in crate" is a meme for us. I even meta-wink at it in my games when I describe a "warehouse full of crates." No one tries to open them because they know damn well I can tell you what's in every fucking crate within a 1000-miles of their position. (I'm good at improv).

But the point is - your players ideas of the situation are almost *always* better/more important than yours as a GM. Your job is to convey as much clarity as possible and let their imaginations do the heavy lifting. Not your prose. Plus the ability to let your PC's go off-roading from your script is the real call to adventure you're looking for. The unknown is always more thrilling than the proscribed "thrill-ride" that ultimately is predictable.