Given WotKKK recent decision to change (in MtG) the Witch to something else there's been a bit (a huge one imho) of a discussion about if it's appropriate or not to use such terms to define the classes:
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 18, 2023, 12:38:53 PM
I prefer to use succinct phrases: e.g. ecoterrorist magic-user instead of druid, sexy female magic-user instead of witch, elderly male magic-user instead of wizard, demon-worshiping magic-user instead of warlock, religious healer magic-user instead of cleric, etc. But YMMV.
&
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 18, 2023, 08:17:53 AM
Troubadour is probably the most accurate term for what D&D bards actually look like and do.
For example.
Now, at your table or while designing your game you do you boo.
That being said I feel there's something missing from the discussion:
Like it or not American (USA for the more pedantic) culture has permeated the world's, part of it IS D&D, and D&D used those names for those classes (even if you believe they were wrong from the start in doing so), and so those names have become ingrained in the popular imaginary world wide as representing something.
Of course, if you want to play a more "realistic" or "historically accurate" game you might want to change those names to something that better suits YOUR setting, which might be the same word in some cases and a different one in others.
But, when developing a game to publish it you need to remember that familiarity means people grock more easily what you mean.
Like it or not D&D is the 500 Tones Gorilla in the room, it has shaped the culture and not only in RPGs.
The ONE real problem I see is that people tend to just use the exact same class with a different name when developing something like Maztica, Al-Quadim, etc. If you're going to do so why not just call it Witch? And if you're going to give it a different name (A single word for the love of God) then do the work and make it really different, give it spells that fit the setting, give it limitations that fit YOUR setting.
Take the White Witch, I haven't seen one that's really different from the Standard Witch, it's just a LG Witch.
But, if you're doing a vanilla fantasy heartbreaker then keep the useful shorthand, it saves you work, it gives the potential buyers a useful shorthand that helps them grok what you mean faster.
Rant over.
But then someone might take offense and feel baaaaaad, Geeky!
The wild attempts to appease... well, I'm not sure who, to be honest. They're just silly. The argument about 'shorthand' is a good one -- you have to call it SOMETHING after all. Why not wizard, witch, druid?
The art of naming in game design (or any design, such as software), is under-appreciated. That's because it is an art, and the boundaries are fuzzy.
With a game, you are stuck between two poles that both have positive aspects: familiarity and accuracy. Then for a game you also had the issue that there are mechanical terms and setting terms. Sometimes it's handy to have a purely mechanical term that is not used in the setting and sometimes it is better that the two overlap or even are an exact match. There's pros and cons to a "magic user" in the game being a "wizard" in the game world, and never the twain shall meet. Though yes, I know it wasn't exactly that clear cut in TSR D&D.
On top of all that, when writing a game in English (can't speak for other languages), there are so many synonyms that it is possible to be selective with word sound or origin and get a very different feel. If you deliberately, for example, seek out English words with a Latin origin for some of your magic lingo, it's going to come across very different than if you deliberately go for Germanic origin. And there are refinements beyond those, depending on when the word was adopted into English, how long it has been there, and how the meaning has changed from its origin.
I agree that if a different term will be used for a key mechanic or a pervasive setting element, there had better be a good reason for it.
One of the many reasons why the woke agenda produces dreck is that it subordinates all of the above to other priorities, while simultaneously lying about those priorities. They don't want things to be "named what they are" accurately.
Changing the meaning of words is how the left controls speech on their way to controlling culture. Don't change anything. Call something what it really is and fuck them.
One does not compromise with totalitarians. They take ever more ground and never give an inch.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 19, 2023, 08:42:37 AM
But then someone might take offense and feel baaaaaad, Geeky!
The wild attempts to appease... well, I'm not sure who, to be honest. They're just silly. The argument about 'shorthand' is a good one -- you have to call it SOMETHING after all. Why not wizard, witch, druid?
I think there are valid reasons/arguments to want to change things around, just not to make a cosmetic change by changing the name to something else.
Say you're making a Viking game, then Skald is the correct name for the bard, but while you're at it change it more, make it fit the setting by changing some mechanics so it's not just The Bard but under a different name.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 19, 2023, 08:58:26 AM
The art of naming in game design (or any design, such as software), is under-appreciated. That's because it is an art, and the boundaries are fuzzy.
With a game, you are stuck between two poles that both have positive aspects: familiarity and accuracy. Then for a game you also had the issue that there are mechanical terms and setting terms. Sometimes it's handy to have a purely mechanical term that is not used in the setting and sometimes it is better that the two overlap or even are an exact match. There's pros and cons to a "magic user" in the game being a "wizard" in the game world, and never the twain shall meet. Though yes, I know it wasn't exactly that clear cut in TSR D&D.
On top of all that, when writing a game in English (can't speak for other languages), there are so many synonyms that it is possible to be selective with word sound or origin and get a very different feel. If you deliberately, for example, seek out English words with a Latin origin for some of your magic lingo, it's going to come across very different than if you deliberately go for Germanic origin. And there are refinements beyond those, depending on when the word was adopted into English, how long it has been there, and how the meaning has changed from its origin.
I agree that if a different term will be used for a key mechanic or a pervasive setting element, there had better be a good reason for it.
One of the many reasons why the woke agenda produces dreck is that it subordinates all of the above to other priorities, while simultaneously lying about those priorities. They don't want things to be "named what they are" accurately.
100% If you're going to change something then you better understand how that something currently works and why it works like that and why it's called that.
Then you need to make sure you're not changing it for stupid reasons, and in the case of the classes make the changes needed to fit the new name, don't just give the Witch a sloppy and very thin paint job and call it a day.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on October 19, 2023, 09:16:19 AM
Changing the meaning of words is how the left controls speech on their way to controlling culture. Don't change anything. Call something what it really is and fuck them.
One does not compromise with totalitarians. They take ever more ground and never give an inch.
Trust me, whatever change I make will be to have things FIT the game/setting and not to try and appease anyone or just changing the name without making any other changes.
No single word is really shorthand enough, but it gets you kinda into the ballpark.
Witch - satanic witch, Baba Yaga or the lost stuff that wiccans think they're still doing?
Shaman - Medicine Man (Navajo or Pueblo, two different things), Finnish or Korean, etc.?
Druid - Britannia vs. Gaul?
There's a lot of overlap.
Similarly, Mage, Wizard, Thaumaturge, Necromancer, Enchanter, Mystic, Sorceror, etc. essentially have no real meaning other than literally Magic-User.
In the end, every setting needs to define these things for itself.
FYI First Nations people don't like their spiritual leaders being called "shamans."
FYI, I don't speak every indigenous North American language and neither do you. Neither do you speak for any Indigenous North American people, even though I'm sure you have the racist white privilege to think you do.
I'm sure they would prefer we use their word for "a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of good and evil spirits, especially among some peoples of northern Asia and North America."
But since I don't know all those words, and I speak English, I'll use Shaman.
But Shaman, Medicine Man, Witch Doctor, etc. are all terms that need to be defined setting by setting.
Magic the Gathering is WotC's setting. Something is a "Whatever Witch" because they say it is. What that thing does is it spends X mana of certain color and does Y damage, or has some kooky effect, like every other MtG card in existence. If they want to develop and define the lore, they can.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 22, 2023, 10:46:38 AM
FYI First Nations people don't like their spiritual leaders being called "shamans."
And I should care because?
I'm running/playing/writting games, if I started cattering to the offense of one group then why not catter to the offense of others? Where does it end?
Should we cut out all magic because it offends Christians?
Should we cut out Clerics because they are OBVIOUSLY based on Christian warriors (Templars or warrior monks depending who you ask)?
Why should I care what the "First Nations" think, say or are offended by?
I'm just pointing it out. I'm not making a value judgment.
EDIT: As I understand it, the word is criticized because it is used far outside of its original context as a way to exoticize non-white cultures and treat them as a homogenous mass.
EDIT: I found a gaming-relevant link here: https://aloneinthelabyrinth.blogspot.com/2022/06/the-word-shaman.html
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 25, 2023, 09:06:25 AM
I'm just pointing it out. I'm not making a value judgment.
EDIT: As I understand it, the word is criticized because it is used far outside of its original context as a way to exoticize non-white cultures and treat them as a homogenous mass.
EDIT: I found a gaming-relevant link here: https://aloneinthelabyrinth.blogspot.com/2022/06/the-word-shaman.html
"exoticize" is just woke gobledydook.
I understand somepeople somewhere are offended by the word, I still don't care.
Should I be offended by THEIR assumption that all "white people" share a single culture or have none? Would anyone care?
It's useful shorthand and I'll keep using it in my games if it fits and fuck the offended snowflakes.
So the "first nations" are offended by the use of the word Shaman huh?
Funny in all my Wild West RPGs only 2 use it:
RPGs without a Shaman class:
Blood & Bullets
Boot Hill
Cowpunchers
Go fer yer gun (d20 - Go fer Yer Gun - Wizards 'n' Winchesters has Medicine Man)
D20 Modern Sidewinder
Far West has Medicine Man
Wild West Hack doesn't even has classes
Owl Hoot Trail
Tombstone
Tumbleweed
True20 Wild West
Westwater lumps Christian Priests with Medicine Men and Snake oil salesman under Holy Man/woman
Weird West
RPGs WITH a Shaman Class
D20 Deadlands
Old Dragon - Old West
Not saying there's NO OTHER RPG with a Wild West setting that uses it.
But, from the evidence I can gather Shaman is most commonly used in settings where there's zero amerindian characters, including using it for "white people's" barbarian cultures.
So, even if I gave a fuck (I don't) they're offended ... They should take it with those who do use it to reffer to their medicine men. Since I don't the "offended" can kiss my hairy latino ass.
And they better stop whining or I might make a wild west RPG and use EVERY single sterotype and offensive word just so they have something to complain about.
Try not to give yourself an aneurysm there, cowboy. You're getting way too worked up over this triviality.
When wokies try to depict non-white religions, they can't tell the difference between Voodoo and Santeria even after reading Wikipedia. I'd say that's far more important than some jargon disputes.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 26, 2023, 02:09:37 PM
Try not to give yourself an aneurysm there, cowboy. You're getting way too worked up over this triviality.
When wokies try to depict non-white religions, they can't tell the difference between Voodoo and Santeria even after reading Wikipedia. I'd say that's far more important than some jargon disputes.
Not a Cowboy, a Charro, please report yourself for re-education ;D
Not worked up, as for it being a triviality that's how the woketards got so much power being a tiny minority, we give way because it's such a small thing, time and time again, until we realize they're running X to the ground.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2023, 01:20:26 PM
Like it or not D&D is the 500 Tones Gorilla in the room, it has shaped the culture and not only in RPGs.
The ONE real problem I see is that people tend to just use the exact same class with a different name when developing something like Maztica, Al-Quadim, etc. If you're going to do so why not just call it Witch? And if you're going to give it a different name (A single word for the love of God) then do the work and make it really different, give it spells that fit the setting, give it limitations that fit YOUR setting.
Take the White Witch, I haven't seen one that's really different from the Standard Witch, it's just a LG Witch.
But, if you're doing a vanilla fantasy heartbreaker then keep the useful shorthand, it saves you work, it gives the potential buyers a useful shorthand that helps them grok what you mean faster.
I don't technically disagree with this. For example, I don't see the point of fighting the D&D meaning of "druid" in D&D.
However, I question the value of doing a "vanilla fantasy heartbreaker" which is just a D&D variant keeping stuff like druid the same. Nothing wrong with D&D, but we already have a massive glut of D&D variants.
I'd be far more interested in a Gaulish-inspired RPG that has Celtic priesthood than in yet another vanilla fantasy heartbreaker.
Quote from: jhkim on October 26, 2023, 06:05:19 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2023, 01:20:26 PM
Like it or not D&D is the 500 Tones Gorilla in the room, it has shaped the culture and not only in RPGs.
The ONE real problem I see is that people tend to just use the exact same class with a different name when developing something like Maztica, Al-Quadim, etc. If you're going to do so why not just call it Witch? And if you're going to give it a different name (A single word for the love of God) then do the work and make it really different, give it spells that fit the setting, give it limitations that fit YOUR setting.
Take the White Witch, I haven't seen one that's really different from the Standard Witch, it's just a LG Witch.
But, if you're doing a vanilla fantasy heartbreaker then keep the useful shorthand, it saves you work, it gives the potential buyers a useful shorthand that helps them grok what you mean faster.
I don't technically disagree with this. For example, I don't see the point of fighting the D&D meaning of "druid" in D&D.
However, I question the value of doing a "vanilla fantasy heartbreaker" which is just a D&D variant keeping stuff like druid the same. Nothing wrong with D&D, but we already have a massive glut of D&D variants.
I'd be far more interested in a Gaulish-inspired RPG that has Celtic priesthood than in yet another vanilla fantasy heartbreaker.
That's fine, each has his interests, I'm just saying that in a vanilla heartbreaker or in vanilla D&D the words have a weight and meaning and shouldn't be changed just because.
Like you say if you're doing a Fantasy RPG based of off different mythos then by all means, but do the work, not just change the name and keep everything else the same.
I was thinking of an Arthurian mythos setting which used some D&D class concepts as appropriate. Clerics and Paladins are associated with Christianity, Warlocks and Sorcerers with Satan, Druids with "the old religion". Merlin is a Sorcerer, but because he was baptized he can use his powers without going to Hell.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 26, 2023, 07:15:04 PM
I was thinking of an Arthurian mythos setting which used some D&D class concepts as appropriate. Clerics and Paladins are associated with Christianity, Warlocks and Sorcerers with Satan, Druids with "the old religion". Merlin is a Sorcerer, but because he was baptized he can use his powers without going to Hell.
I like it, now, IIRC Merlin descends from an inccubus, small difference but he inherits his powers doesn't make a pact for them.
So, Merlin is a cambion, or a tiefling if you preffer.
This is just a gut feeling, but I think neodruids are more likely to be offended by the removal of the name.
In AD&D druids are clearly based on what little information we knew about them plus Victorian(?) Neodruids tropes.
Shaman is originally a Eurasian Steppe term innit? That's actually what they were in Oriental Adventures. Funny how the game's "racist past" seems to use terminology more properly than WOTC ever did in the information age.
I think our society is fast approaching peak stupidity where witches and whatnot are a problem in fantasy. It's not like witches are a faerie tale trope or anything...
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2023, 01:20:26 PM
Given WotKKK recent decision to change (in MtG) the Witch to something else there's been a bit (a huge one imho) of a discussion about if it's appropriate or not to use such terms to define the classes:
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 18, 2023, 12:38:53 PM
I prefer to use succinct phrases: e.g. ecoterrorist magic-user instead of druid, sexy female magic-user instead of witch, elderly male magic-user instead of wizard, demon-worshiping magic-user instead of warlock, religious healer magic-user instead of cleric, etc. But YMMV.
&
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 18, 2023, 08:17:53 AM
Troubadour is probably the most accurate term for what D&D bards actually look like and do.
For example.
Now, at your table or while designing your game you do you boo.
That being said I feel there's something missing from the discussion:
Like it or not American (USA for the more pedantic) culture has permeated the world's, part of it IS D&D, and D&D used those names for those classes (even if you believe they were wrong from the start in doing so), and so those names have become ingrained in the popular imaginary world wide as representing something.
For that part, don't worry, South Korea, Japan and India's culture are replacing the West. The US puts out content with zero emotional content, meanwhile Japan puts out content that gives you an emotional reaction. Look at the irrelevance of American comic books compared to Manga? Go to your FLHS, they typically had current comic books - what they are pulled and have replaced with Manga + old comics, but nothing new? American cultural influence is dead, dying and gone. Disney can't put out a movie that makes a sale. Paramount just announced they are going full DEI after all their Star Wars content flops more than the Incredible Mr Limpet does outside of water. Get ready for an Asian centered cultural world a lot faster than people believe and you can thank the wokesters for putting themselves completely out of jobs. By the time the wokersters are done, we'll be watching films celebrating Pearl Harbor for the brave Japanese airmen.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2023, 01:42:54 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2023, 01:20:26 PM
Given WotKKK recent decision to change (in MtG) the Witch to something else there's been a bit (a huge one imho) of a discussion about if it's appropriate or not to use such terms to define the classes:
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 18, 2023, 12:38:53 PM
I prefer to use succinct phrases: e.g. ecoterrorist magic-user instead of druid, sexy female magic-user instead of witch, elderly male magic-user instead of wizard, demon-worshiping magic-user instead of warlock, religious healer magic-user instead of cleric, etc. But YMMV.
&
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 18, 2023, 08:17:53 AM
Troubadour is probably the most accurate term for what D&D bards actually look like and do.
For example.
Now, at your table or while designing your game you do you boo.
That being said I feel there's something missing from the discussion:
Like it or not American (USA for the more pedantic) culture has permeated the world's, part of it IS D&D, and D&D used those names for those classes (even if you believe they were wrong from the start in doing so), and so those names have become ingrained in the popular imaginary world wide as representing something.
For that part, don't worry, South Korea, Japan and India's culture are replacing the West. The US puts out content with zero emotional content, meanwhile Japan puts out content that gives you an emotional reaction. Look at the irrelevance of American comic books compared to Manga? Go to your FLHS, they typically had current comic books - what they are pulled and have replaced with Manga + old comics, but nothing new? American cultural influence is dead, dying and gone. Disney can't put out a movie that makes a sale. Paramount just announced they are going full DEI after all their Star Wars content flops more than the Incredible Mr Limpet does outside of water. Get ready for an Asian centered cultural world a lot faster than people believe and you can thank the wokesters for putting themselves completely out of jobs. By the time the wokersters are done, we'll be watching films celebrating Pearl Harbor for the brave Japanese airmen.
"America commits to cultural seppuku, Japan capitalizes," but in all seriousness Japan is in America's sphere of influence. It's not impossible Japan gets dragged into the same bullshit state of affairs.
Quote from: WERDNA on October 30, 2023, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2023, 01:42:54 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2023, 01:20:26 PM
Given WotKKK recent decision to change (in MtG) the Witch to something else there's been a bit (a huge one imho) of a discussion about if it's appropriate or not to use such terms to define the classes:
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 18, 2023, 12:38:53 PM
I prefer to use succinct phrases: e.g. ecoterrorist magic-user instead of druid, sexy female magic-user instead of witch, elderly male magic-user instead of wizard, demon-worshiping magic-user instead of warlock, religious healer magic-user instead of cleric, etc. But YMMV.
&
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 18, 2023, 08:17:53 AM
Troubadour is probably the most accurate term for what D&D bards actually look like and do.
For example.
Now, at your table or while designing your game you do you boo.
That being said I feel there's something missing from the discussion:
Like it or not American (USA for the more pedantic) culture has permeated the world's, part of it IS D&D, and D&D used those names for those classes (even if you believe they were wrong from the start in doing so), and so those names have become ingrained in the popular imaginary world wide as representing something.
For that part, don't worry, South Korea, Japan and India's culture are replacing the West. The US puts out content with zero emotional content, meanwhile Japan puts out content that gives you an emotional reaction. Look at the irrelevance of American comic books compared to Manga? Go to your FLHS, they typically had current comic books - what they are pulled and have replaced with Manga + old comics, but nothing new? American cultural influence is dead, dying and gone. Disney can't put out a movie that makes a sale. Paramount just announced they are going full DEI after all their Star Wars content flops more than the Incredible Mr Limpet does outside of water. Get ready for an Asian centered cultural world a lot faster than people believe and you can thank the wokesters for putting themselves completely out of jobs. By the time the wokersters are done, we'll be watching films celebrating Pearl Harbor for the brave Japanese airmen.
"America commits to cultural seppuku, Japan capitalizes," but in all seriousness Japan is in America's sphere of influence. It's not impossible Japan gets dragged into the same bullshit state of affairs.
Those Japense firms that get americanized, gets called out by the public and they back down due to societal norms there. Look at Sony, its sales are toilet water now because they went woke. Sony had to move its video game division to Los Angeles because Japanese workers would not support it.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2023, 04:16:33 PM
Quote from: WERDNA on October 30, 2023, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2023, 01:42:54 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2023, 01:20:26 PM
Given WotKKK recent decision to change (in MtG) the Witch to something else there's been a bit (a huge one imho) of a discussion about if it's appropriate or not to use such terms to define the classes:
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 18, 2023, 12:38:53 PM
I prefer to use succinct phrases: e.g. ecoterrorist magic-user instead of druid, sexy female magic-user instead of witch, elderly male magic-user instead of wizard, demon-worshiping magic-user instead of warlock, religious healer magic-user instead of cleric, etc. But YMMV.
&
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 18, 2023, 08:17:53 AM
Troubadour is probably the most accurate term for what D&D bards actually look like and do.
For example.
Now, at your table or while designing your game you do you boo.
That being said I feel there's something missing from the discussion:
Like it or not American (USA for the more pedantic) culture has permeated the world's, part of it IS D&D, and D&D used those names for those classes (even if you believe they were wrong from the start in doing so), and so those names have become ingrained in the popular imaginary world wide as representing something.
For that part, don't worry, South Korea, Japan and India's culture are replacing the West. The US puts out content with zero emotional content, meanwhile Japan puts out content that gives you an emotional reaction. Look at the irrelevance of American comic books compared to Manga? Go to your FLHS, they typically had current comic books - what they are pulled and have replaced with Manga + old comics, but nothing new? American cultural influence is dead, dying and gone. Disney can't put out a movie that makes a sale. Paramount just announced they are going full DEI after all their Star Wars content flops more than the Incredible Mr Limpet does outside of water. Get ready for an Asian centered cultural world a lot faster than people believe and you can thank the wokesters for putting themselves completely out of jobs. By the time the wokersters are done, we'll be watching films celebrating Pearl Harbor for the brave Japanese airmen.
"America commits to cultural seppuku, Japan capitalizes," but in all seriousness Japan is in America's sphere of influence. It's not impossible Japan gets dragged into the same bullshit state of affairs.
Those Japense firms that get americanized, gets called out by the public and they back down due to societal norms there. Look at Sony, its sales are toilet water now because they went woke. Sony had to move its video game division to Los Angeles because Japanese workers would not support it.
Not sure if it was the Prime Minister but some big wig in Japan's government is courting ESG investment.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 31, 2023, 01:17:00 AM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2023, 04:16:33 PM
Quote from: WERDNA on October 30, 2023, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on October 30, 2023, 01:42:54 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 18, 2023, 01:20:26 PM
Given WotKKK recent decision to change (in MtG) the Witch to something else there's been a bit (a huge one imho) of a discussion about if it's appropriate or not to use such terms to define the classes:
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 18, 2023, 12:38:53 PM
I prefer to use succinct phrases: e.g. ecoterrorist magic-user instead of druid, sexy female magic-user instead of witch, elderly male magic-user instead of wizard, demon-worshiping magic-user instead of warlock, religious healer magic-user instead of cleric, etc. But YMMV.
&
Quote from: RPGPundit on October 18, 2023, 08:17:53 AM
Troubadour is probably the most accurate term for what D&D bards actually look like and do.
For example.
Now, at your table or while designing your game you do you boo.
That being said I feel there's something missing from the discussion:
Like it or not American (USA for the more pedantic) culture has permeated the world's, part of it IS D&D, and D&D used those names for those classes (even if you believe they were wrong from the start in doing so), and so those names have become ingrained in the popular imaginary world wide as representing something.
For that part, don't worry, South Korea, Japan and India's culture are replacing the West. The US puts out content with zero emotional content, meanwhile Japan puts out content that gives you an emotional reaction. Look at the irrelevance of American comic books compared to Manga? Go to your FLHS, they typically had current comic books - what they are pulled and have replaced with Manga + old comics, but nothing new? American cultural influence is dead, dying and gone. Disney can't put out a movie that makes a sale. Paramount just announced they are going full DEI after all their Star Wars content flops more than the Incredible Mr Limpet does outside of water. Get ready for an Asian centered cultural world a lot faster than people believe and you can thank the wokesters for putting themselves completely out of jobs. By the time the wokersters are done, we'll be watching films celebrating Pearl Harbor for the brave Japanese airmen.
"America commits to cultural seppuku, Japan capitalizes," but in all seriousness Japan is in America's sphere of influence. It's not impossible Japan gets dragged into the same bullshit state of affairs.
Those Japense firms that get americanized, gets called out by the public and they back down due to societal norms there. Look at Sony, its sales are toilet water now because they went woke. Sony had to move its video game division to Los Angeles because Japanese workers would not support it.
Not sure if it was the Prime Minister but some big wig in Japan's government is courting ESG investment.
Yup global asshats are doing everything they can to shove a dick up Japan's ass and the citizens are telling them very politely "no thank you" as the Japanese tend to do. Sony went woke and it hurt their console sales in Japan. The PS5 is the lowest selling Sony counsel in Sony's history. Kadokawa president apologized for publicly supporting censorship. His customers told him to get bent. The president took a pay cut for it.
https://japantoday.com/category/features/lifestyle/kadokawa-president-apologizes-and-takes-pay-cut-for-his-comments-about-censoring-manga
Say what you want about the Japanese, they are a culturally homogenous society with strong societal ties. They are very good at resisting woke attacks on their culture and people.
Quote from: WERDNA on October 30, 2023, 01:29:16 PM
This is just a gut feeling, but I think neodruids are more likely to be offended by the removal of the name.
In AD&D druids are clearly based on what little information we knew about them plus Victorian(?) Neodruids tropes.
Shaman is originally a Eurasian Steppe term innit? That's actually what they were in Oriental Adventures. Funny how the game's "racist past" seems to use terminology more properly than WOTC ever did in the information age.
I think our society is fast approaching peak stupidity where witches and whatnot are a problem in fantasy. It's not like witches are a faerie tale trope or anything...
Yes, "shaman" originally comes from northern Asia. But it's since been used by pop culture and incompetent anthropologists as a generic term for indigenous belief systems around the globe regardless of how different those beliefs actually are. In OGL books, I've seen it used a broad shorthand for not!druids with a generic indigenous aesthetic (Native American? Afro-Caribbean? Australian Aboriginal? Who knows!) and a theology that doesn't match any real theology that ever existed and doesn't mesh with the already convoluted D&D cosmology.
The problem is that, once you actually start studying world religions, you begin to notice there are more similarities than there are differences. While there are obvious differences between cultures, all religions serve similar roles in giving people a sense of purpose and providing various remedies for social, physical and environmental ills in a time before we had evidence-based medicine, economists, and the weather channel.
The beliefs of Proto-Indo-Europeans, pre-colonial North Americans and pre-colonial Sub-Saharan Africans are probably more similar than they are different. But in pop culture and fantasy fiction, an artificial line is drawn between... well,
euro paganism and
non-euro paganism. Non-euro paganism is treated as a homogenous mass whose tenets are horribly misconstrued by writers, whereas even the most inaccurate depictions of euro paganism are vastly closer to the mark by comparison. Even the woke do this by, for example, conflating Haitian Voodoo with Cuban Santeria in
Castlevania: Nocturne while simultaneously scrubbing all elements of Folk Catholicism. This is probably because euro paganism is vastly more accessible to the people writing this stuff, whereas non-euro religion... isn't.
I'm sure we can all name underworld rulers like Hel, Hades and Anubis. (Ancient Egyptian religion isn't actually European, but it's the most accessible African religion to Europeans due to the Egyptology craze and the fact that Ancient Egypt heavily influenced European cultures via trade.) How many of us can name many American, Australian, Sub-Saharan African mythological characters other than Coyote, Anansi and Quetzalcoatl?
Also, Proto-Indo-European descended religion has tons of elements that would seem "shamanic." For example, Greek religion posits that natural features have their own gods (nymphs, satyrs, river gods, mountain gods, etc) and that even abstract concepts like justice and vengeance have personifications. Then there's fairies, personifications of the seemingly capricious natural world that must be placated and avoided, who are a Christianization of the rustic deities of pagan religions. Nymphs, fairies, jinn, yokai, etc. are all different cultures' versions of the same thing: personifications of natural forces that must be placated and avoided.
Compare the cosmologies for Mayan religion, Chinese folk religion, and Greco-Roman religion. Notice anything? All three have an identical three-tiered model where Sky/Heaven sits at the top, Earth in the middle, and the Underworld/Hell at the bottom. These cultures didn't have contact with each other, yet they independently came up with the same basic cosmology. What do they have in common? Agriculture, cities, writing, and elaborate funerals. This suggests to me that these religions are reflective of universal aspects of human heuristics: the Sky/Heavens are above us, we live on Earth, and we inter our dead in (or mark their passing with) the grave.
I don't think it makes sense to exoticize these things, especially when you have a poor grasp of their workings anyway. A cleric, druid, and shaman, or whatever you want to call them, are the same thing.
Exotic only means different, not from here (wherever here is).
You don't need to "exoticize" different cultures/religions from your own, they ALREADY are exotic to you, just like they would see you as exotic even if they don't have a word for it. Plus "exoticize" is just SJW gobbledygook.
Exotic
1 of 2
adjective
ex·ot·ic ig-ˈzä-tik
Synonyms of exotic https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/exotic (https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/exotic)
1: introduced from another country : not native to the place where found
exotic plants
... exotic species creating havoc when introduced into new environments.—
Chemical & Engineering News
2: strikingly, excitingly, or mysteriously different or unusual
exotic flavors
Until very recently the alpaca was an exotic sight at county fairs and petting zoos in the metropolitan region.—
Glenn Collins
3 : of or relating to striptease : involving or featuring exotic dancers
exotic dancing
an exotic nightclub
4 archaic : foreign, alien
Can anyone point to why is it now "problematic" to find something exotic?
I've already proven that in the only games where Shaman could be used for the medicine man from the "first nations" it's very rare to find it at all.
That you or other people see the class and think amerindians speaks about you a lot more than about the class itself.
Nothing about D&D cosmology (and 99.99% of RPGs) makes a lick of sense, it's not a 1:1 equivalent to any IRL cosmology present or past. But that's only a problem if you want to model reality. MY complaint it's that it doesn't make sense internally, in the game world.
As for Shaman being an amalgamation of different IRL cultures... Well duh! it's shorthand, do you also complain that The Cleric is an amalgamation of Christianity with other religions including polytheism? No, nobody complaints because fuck the Christians that's why.
Well fuck the pagans, polytheists, witches, druids, shamans etc too! Seriously, IT'S A GAME, it's not meant to model IRL things.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 31, 2023, 12:36:52 PM
Exotic only means different, not from here (wherever here is).
You don't need to "exoticize" different cultures/religions from your own, they ALREADY are exotic to you, just like they would see you as exotic even if they don't have a word for it. Plus "exoticize" is just SJW gobbledygook.
Exotic
1 of 2
adjective
ex·ot·ic ig-ˈzä-tik
Synonyms of exotic https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/exotic (https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/exotic)
1: introduced from another country : not native to the place where found
exotic plants
... exotic species creating havoc when introduced into new environments.—
Chemical & Engineering News
2: strikingly, excitingly, or mysteriously different or unusual
exotic flavors
Until very recently the alpaca was an exotic sight at county fairs and petting zoos in the metropolitan region.—
Glenn Collins
3 : of or relating to striptease : involving or featuring exotic dancers
exotic dancing
an exotic nightclub
4 archaic : foreign, alien
Can anyone point to why is it now "problematic" to find something exotic?
I've already proven that in the only games where Shaman could be used for the medicine man from the "first nations" it's very rare to find it at all.
That you or other people see the class and think amerindians speaks about you a lot more than about the class itself.
Nothing about D&D cosmology (and 99.99% of RPGs) makes a lick of sense, it's not a 1:1 equivalent to any IRL cosmology present or past. But that's only a problem if you want to model reality. MY complaint it's that it doesn't make sense internally, in the game world.
As for Shaman being an amalgamation of different IRL cultures... Well duh! it's shorthand, do you also complain that The Cleric is an amalgamation of Christianity with other religions including polytheism? No, nobody complaints because fuck the Christians that's why.
Well fuck the pagans, polytheists, witches, druids, shamans etc too! Seriously, IT'S A GAME, it's not meant to model IRL things.
Woke = Globalism. Everything has to be the same and equal, there can be no other or different we are all the same and borders are racist etc. Its why they tend to go against the term exotic or other. It's fairly sad, but the powerful are trying to force one culture on the planet as much as they can. It's like we are watching the deliberate destruction of cultures right now.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 31, 2023, 12:36:52 PM
Nothing about D&D cosmology (and 99.99% of RPGs) makes a lick of sense, it's not a 1:1 equivalent to any IRL cosmology present or past. But that's only a problem if you want to model reality. MY complaint it's that it doesn't make sense internally, in the game world.
As for Shaman being an amalgamation of different IRL cultures... Well duh! it's shorthand, do you also complain that The Cleric is an amalgamation of Christianity with other religions including polytheism? No, nobody complaints because fuck the Christians that's why.
These are all things that I have complained about before.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 31, 2023, 12:36:52 PM
I've already proven that in the only games where Shaman could be used for the medicine man from the "first nations" it's very rare to find it at all.
That you or other people see the class and think amerindians speaks about you a lot more than about the class itself.
The three games that I think of with "shaman" are Runequest, Shadowrun, and Deadlands. Runequest uses it for old cultures of mythic Europe, while Shadowrun and Deadlands use it for Native American. These were all very popular game lines. I'm actually not familiar with most of the old west games you previously cite, except for Boot Hill and Tombstone. You also noted shaman being in D20 Deadlands (unsurprisingly) and Old Dragon - Old West.
I'm wondering - what are the other games that use "shaman" as a character option or class, in any context?
Quote from: jhkim on November 01, 2023, 10:39:32 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on October 31, 2023, 12:36:52 PM
I've already proven that in the only games where Shaman could be used for the medicine man from the "first nations" it's very rare to find it at all.
That you or other people see the class and think amerindians speaks about you a lot more than about the class itself.
The three games that I think of with "shaman" are Runequest, Shadowrun, and Deadlands. Runequest uses it for old cultures of mythic Europe, while Shadowrun and Deadlands use it for Native American. These were all very popular game lines. I'm actually not familiar with most of the old west games you previously cite, except for Boot Hill and Tombstone. You also noted shaman being in D20 Deadlands (unsurprisingly) and Old Dragon - Old West.
I'm wondering - what are the other games that use "shaman" as a character option or class, in any context?
Nowhere was a claim about a game being popular as a part of the claim.
The Claim was Shaman is being used to represent the medicine man from the "first nations".
So, for that claim researching Western themed games is the best way to see if this is true, I don't own Shadowrun so that one couldn't be in my research and IT'S NOT a Western themed game so, even if I owned it it still would have escaped my attention.
Runequest also isn't a Western themed game.
As to your question, I don't know, too many games for anyone to KNOW, but I've seen D&D, retroclones using it, not a single one I've seen (that's not a Western themed game) uses it to represent "first nations" medicine men, and those who do can be counted with one hand and have fingers to spare IME.
What would be the reason to do that research?