Given WotKKK recent decision to change (in MtG) the Witch to something else there's been a bit (a huge one imho) of a discussion about if it's appropriate or not to use such terms to define the classes:

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 18, 2023, 12:38:53 PM

I prefer to use succinct phrases: e.g. ecoterrorist magic-user instead of druid, sexy female magic-user instead of witch, elderly male magic-user instead of wizard, demon-worshiping magic-user instead of warlock, religious healer magic-user instead of cleric, etc. But YMMV.

&

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 18, 2023, 08:17:53 AM
Troubadour is probably the most accurate term for what D&D bards actually look like and do.

For example.

Now, at your table or while designing your game you do you boo.

That being said I feel there's something missing from the discussion:

Like it or not American (USA for the more pedantic) culture has permeated the world's, part of it IS D&D, and D&D used those names for those classes (even if you believe they were wrong from the start in doing so), and so those names have become ingrained in the popular imaginary world wide as representing something.

Of course, if you want to play a more "realistic" or "historically accurate" game you might want to change those names to something that better suits YOUR setting, which might be the same word in some cases and a different one in others.

But, when developing a game to publish it you need to remember that familiarity means people grock more easily what you mean.

Like it or not D&D is the 500 Tones Gorilla in the room, it has shaped the culture and not only in RPGs.

The ONE real problem I see is that people tend to just use the exact same class with a different name when developing something like Maztica, Al-Quadim, etc. If you're going to do so why not just call it Witch? And if you're going to give it a different name (A single word for the love of God) then do the work and make it really different, give it spells that fit the setting, give it limitations that fit YOUR setting.

Take the White Witch, I haven't seen one that's really different from the Standard Witch, it's just a LG Witch.

But, if you're doing a vanilla fantasy heartbreaker then keep the useful shorthand, it saves you work, it gives the potential buyers a useful shorthand that helps them grok what you mean faster.

Rant over.

But then someone might take offense and feel baaaaaad, Geeky!

The wild attempts to appease... well, I'm not sure who, to be honest. They're just silly. The argument about 'shorthand' is a good one -- you have to call it SOMETHING after all. Why not wizard, witch, druid?

The art of naming in game design (or any design, such as software), is under-appreciated.  That's because it is an art, and the boundaries are fuzzy. 

With a game, you are stuck between two poles that both have positive aspects:  familiarity and accuracy.  Then for a game you also had the issue that there are mechanical terms and setting terms.  Sometimes it's handy to have a purely mechanical term that is not used in the setting and sometimes it is better that the two overlap or even are an exact match.  There's pros and cons to a "magic user" in the game being a "wizard" in the game world, and never the twain shall meet. Though yes, I know it wasn't exactly that clear cut in TSR D&D. 

On top of all that, when writing a game in English (can't speak for other languages), there are so many synonyms that it is possible to be selective with word sound or origin and get a very different feel.  If you deliberately, for example, seek out English words with a Latin origin for some of your magic lingo, it's going to come across very different than if you deliberately go for Germanic origin.  And there are refinements beyond those, depending on when the word was adopted into English, how long it has been there, and how the meaning has changed from its origin.

I agree that if a different term will be used for a key mechanic or a pervasive setting element, there had better be a good reason for it.

One of the many reasons why the woke agenda produces dreck is that it subordinates all of the above to other priorities, while simultaneously lying about those priorities.  They don't want things to be "named what they are" accurately. 

Changing the meaning of words is how the left controls speech on their way to controlling culture. Don't change anything. Call something what it really is and fuck them.

One does not compromise with totalitarians. They take ever more ground and never give an inch.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 19, 2023, 08:42:37 AM
But then someone might take offense and feel baaaaaad, Geeky!

The wild attempts to appease... well, I'm not sure who, to be honest. They're just silly. The argument about 'shorthand' is a good one -- you have to call it SOMETHING after all. Why not wizard, witch, druid?

I think there are valid reasons/arguments to want to change things around, just not to make a cosmetic change by changing the name to something else.

Say you're making a Viking game, then Skald is the correct name for the bard, but while you're at it change it more, make it fit the setting by changing some mechanics so it's not just The Bard but under a different name.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on October 19, 2023, 08:58:26 AM
The art of naming in game design (or any design, such as software), is under-appreciated.  That's because it is an art, and the boundaries are fuzzy. 

With a game, you are stuck between two poles that both have positive aspects:  familiarity and accuracy.  Then for a game you also had the issue that there are mechanical terms and setting terms.  Sometimes it's handy to have a purely mechanical term that is not used in the setting and sometimes it is better that the two overlap or even are an exact match.  There's pros and cons to a "magic user" in the game being a "wizard" in the game world, and never the twain shall meet. Though yes, I know it wasn't exactly that clear cut in TSR D&D. 

On top of all that, when writing a game in English (can't speak for other languages), there are so many synonyms that it is possible to be selective with word sound or origin and get a very different feel.  If you deliberately, for example, seek out English words with a Latin origin for some of your magic lingo, it's going to come across very different than if you deliberately go for Germanic origin.  And there are refinements beyond those, depending on when the word was adopted into English, how long it has been there, and how the meaning has changed from its origin.

I agree that if a different term will be used for a key mechanic or a pervasive setting element, there had better be a good reason for it.

One of the many reasons why the woke agenda produces dreck is that it subordinates all of the above to other priorities, while simultaneously lying about those priorities.  They don't want things to be "named what they are" accurately.

100% If you're going to change something then you better understand how that something currently works and why it works like that and why it's called that.

Then you need to make sure you're not changing it for stupid reasons, and in the case of the classes make the changes needed to fit the new name, don't just give the Witch a sloppy and very thin paint job and call it a day.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on October 19, 2023, 09:16:19 AM
Changing the meaning of words is how the left controls speech on their way to controlling culture. Don't change anything. Call something what it really is and fuck them.

One does not compromise with totalitarians. They take ever more ground and never give an inch.

Trust me, whatever change I make will be to have things FIT the game/setting and not to try and appease anyone or just changing the name without making any other changes.

No single word is really shorthand enough, but it gets you kinda into the ballpark.

Witch - satanic witch, Baba Yaga or the lost stuff that wiccans think they're still doing?
Shaman - Medicine Man (Navajo or Pueblo, two different things), Finnish or Korean, etc.?
Druid - Britannia vs. Gaul?

There's a lot of overlap.

Similarly, Mage, Wizard, Thaumaturge, Necromancer, Enchanter, Mystic, Sorceror, etc. essentially have no real meaning other than literally Magic-User.

In the end, every setting needs to define these things for itself.

FYI First Nations people don't like their spiritual leaders being called "shamans."

FYI, I don't speak every indigenous North American language and neither do you.  Neither do you speak for any Indigenous North American people, even though I'm sure you have the racist white privilege to think you do.

I'm sure they would prefer we use their word for "a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of good and evil spirits, especially among some peoples of northern Asia and North America."

But since I don't know all those words, and I speak English, I'll use Shaman.

But Shaman, Medicine Man, Witch Doctor, etc. are all terms that need to be defined setting by setting.

Magic the Gathering is WotC's setting.  Something is a "Whatever Witch" because they say it is.  What that thing does is it spends X mana of certain color and does Y damage, or has some kooky effect, like every other MtG card in existence.  If they want to develop and define the lore, they can.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 22, 2023, 10:46:38 AM
FYI First Nations people don't like their spiritual leaders being called "shamans."

And I should care because?

I'm running/playing/writting games, if I started cattering to the offense of one group then why not catter to the offense of others? Where does it end?

Should we cut out all magic because it offends Christians?

Should we cut out Clerics because they are OBVIOUSLY based on Christian warriors (Templars or warrior monks depending who you ask)?

Why should I care what the "First Nations" think, say or are offended by?

I'm just pointing it out. I'm not making a value judgment.

EDIT: As I understand it, the word is criticized because it is used far outside of its original context as a way to exoticize non-white cultures and treat them as a homogenous mass.

EDIT: I found a gaming-relevant link here: https://aloneinthelabyrinth.blogspot.com/2022/06/the-word-shaman.html

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 25, 2023, 09:06:25 AM
I'm just pointing it out. I'm not making a value judgment.

EDIT: As I understand it, the word is criticized because it is used far outside of its original context as a way to exoticize non-white cultures and treat them as a homogenous mass.

EDIT: I found a gaming-relevant link here: https://aloneinthelabyrinth.blogspot.com/2022/06/the-word-shaman.html

"exoticize" is just woke gobledydook.

I understand somepeople somewhere are offended by the word, I still don't care.

Should I be offended by THEIR assumption that all "white people" share a single culture or have none? Would anyone care?

It's useful shorthand and I'll keep using it in my games if it fits and fuck the offended snowflakes.

So the "first nations" are offended by the use of the word Shaman huh?

Funny in all my Wild West RPGs only 2 use it:

RPGs without a Shaman class:

Blood & Bullets
Boot Hill
Cowpunchers
Go fer yer gun (d20 - Go fer Yer Gun - Wizards 'n' Winchesters has Medicine Man)
D20 Modern Sidewinder
Far West has Medicine Man
Wild West Hack doesn't even has classes
Owl Hoot Trail
Tombstone
Tumbleweed
True20 Wild West
Westwater lumps Christian Priests with Medicine Men and Snake oil salesman under Holy Man/woman
Weird West

RPGs WITH a Shaman Class
D20 Deadlands
Old Dragon - Old West

Not saying there's NO OTHER RPG with a Wild West setting that uses it.

But, from the evidence I can gather Shaman is most commonly used in settings where there's zero amerindian characters, including using it for "white people's" barbarian cultures.

So, even if I gave a fuck (I don't) they're offended ... They should take it with those who do use it to reffer to their medicine men. Since I don't the "offended" can kiss my hairy latino ass.

And they better stop whining or I might make a wild west RPG and use EVERY single sterotype and offensive word just so they have something to complain about.

Try not to give yourself an aneurysm there, cowboy. You're getting way too worked up over this triviality.

When wokies try to depict non-white religions, they can't tell the difference between Voodoo and Santeria even after reading Wikipedia. I'd say that's far more important than some jargon disputes.