Quote from: jhkim on July 12, 2021, 05:34:32 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on July 12, 2021, 05:00:29 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 12, 2021, 04:16:27 PM
  I guess most people dont go do hike in camping with their kids.  Having done it, you really understand that any adventurer who can afford it is going to have pack animals or porters, or both. 

Definitely.  I've done hiking/camping with my son for scouts, and even with modern lightweight tents, bags, stoves, etc, it gets pretty freakin' heavy after a few miles.  Especially up steep hills and over sand.

A lot of that weight is conveniences and comforts for modern standards, rather than necessities. The same goes for campfires. People can live for quite a while on preserved foods like pemmican, and especially if there is moonlight, eyesight is good enough for practical purposes.

If the characters are trying to sneak behind enemy lines or similar, then I think not lighting campfires would be reasonable and practical. On the other hand, normal travel shouldn't be that dangerous. I try not to punish players for behaving in normal ways to keep their lives comfortable.

    No alot of that weight is not modern comforts for modern standards.  Hike in camping is not the same as pulling up the car.  If you have to go 3+ miles in and 3+ miles to get back out, you are not carrying the cot/chairs/tables, etc.   I agree about the normal travel though.  But only in regularly patrolled areas with fairly strong government forces of some sort.  When my players take a trip through the border kingdoms of Hyboria, they know they are in no man's land and they take plenty of hired swords for the trip.  So they make fires and cook meat, because they are smart enough to take their protection with them.  There is a reason people did not travel far from their place of birth in the Dark and Middle ages. 

If anyone's interested, Marjorie Kempe's autobiography makes for an interesting read. She was a commoner who lived in the 14th and 15th century England, wrote the first autobiography in the English language (though she couldn't read or write), had at least 14 children, believed she heard the voice of God, had visions, wore a hair shirt, wailed in religious devotion, was put on trial for heresy (many times), ran 2 businesses (home mill and brewery), wrote about her lecherous inclinations, managed to make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, then visited many holy sites in Italy, the Netherlands, Germany, France, Spain, and across England, all while exasperating everyone who met her.

Quote from: Pat on July 12, 2021, 09:02:25 PM
If anyone's interested, Marjorie Kempe's autobiography makes for an interesting read. She was a commoner who lived in the 14th and 15th century England, wrote the first autobiography in the English language (though she couldn't read or write), had at least 14 children, believed she heard the voice of God, had visions, wore a hair shirt, wailed in religious devotion, was put on trial for heresy (many times), ran 2 businesses (home mill and brewery), wrote about her lecherous inclinations, managed to make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, then visited many holy sites in Italy, the Netherlands, Germany, France, Spain, and across England, all while exasperating everyone who met her.

Greetings!

Goddamn, Pat! That book by that medieval chick sounds like pure *awesome*! I will be sure to get it. Very cool!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on July 12, 2021, 09:07:57 PM

Goddamn, Pat! That book by that medieval chick sounds like pure *awesome*! I will be sure to get it. Very cool!

It's a trip. She defies pretty much every expectation people have about medieval women, while still being very alien to the modern mindset.

A couple online editions:
http://english.selu.edu/humanitiesonline/kempe/showcase/webapp.php
https://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/publication/staley-the-book-of-margery-kempe

Quote from: Zelen on July 11, 2021, 09:43:05 PM
It's a given that it doesn't make sense to try to have meaningful mechanics about campfires in a game world if low-level wizards can just create extraplanar spaces to camp in.

In D&D at least you cant to one degree or another. (Dont know about the magic expansion for O. Think at least Rope Trick shows up there?)
In  O and BX no such safety spells exist.

It is not till AD&D that Rope Trick shows up in the main rules as a level 2 spell. It only lasts 10min per level of caster. Not long enough to camp in and possibly hardly any to even rest in.  And the Tiny Hut as a level 3 spell. Lasting 1 hour per level of caster. But all it does is provide a tent of magic force that provides no protection from attacks. Does protect from the weather, heat and cold though and up to 50mph winds.

2e is where things get interesting. Rope Trick now lasts 20 min per level of caster and can not be attacked into from outside. The hut now lasts 4 hours +1/level of caster but is otherwise more or less the same. But it is 2e where Leomund's Secure Shelter at spell level 4 and Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion at spell level 7 make it into the core books. The Shelter is pretty well protected and lasts 1d4+1 hours +1hr/lvl. The Mansion finally is where you get your extradimensional space. Lasting 1 hour/lvl. Not going to get access to that though till level 14. NOT a low level mage's thing. Secure Shelter Will not get access to till level 7.

While Rope Trick is not viable for camping in, it can make for a nice little hidy-hole long as foes dont think to look up if the rope is still outside. If the rope is in with the party then its probably going to be pretty hard to spot depending on where it is and the edition.

Past 2e the spells have shifted in various ways.

Quote from: Mishihari on July 12, 2021, 03:55:50 PM
The other big reason for having a campfire is one I'm not sure how to make important in an RPG - just being able to see after sundown.  Light is handwaved in most RPGs in actual play and sometimes in the rules as well.    If you can't see it's hard to do maintenance and you're at a big disadvantage in a night time attack where your enemies can see well in the dark.  Without a light you're pretty much done for the day when the sun goes down.

Actually as was taught to us in outdoor school. The campfire actually near near blinds humans to anything outside the firelight radius if its bright enough and even lower lights can still impede sight to some degree. Campfire will make being snuck up on actually easier in a way. I believe torches have the same effect? Theres some vids up about this. Would lay good odds the military has tons of date on it too and just what the thresholds are.

Great if you need to read or repair something. But potentially horrible if you want to actually be safe from anything not afraid of fire that wants to get to know you better. In the not better sort of way.

Quote from: Omega on July 12, 2021, 11:13:53 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on July 12, 2021, 03:55:50 PM
The other big reason for having a campfire is one I'm not sure how to make important in an RPG - just being able to see after sundown.  Light is handwaved in most RPGs in actual play and sometimes in the rules as well.    If you can't see it's hard to do maintenance and you're at a big disadvantage in a night time attack where your enemies can see well in the dark.  Without a light you're pretty much done for the day when the sun goes down.

Actually as was taught to us in outdoor school. The campfire actually near near blinds humans to anything outside the firelight radius if its bright enough and even lower lights can still impede sight to some degree. Campfire will make being snuck up on actually easier in a way. I believe torches have the same effect? Theres some vids up about this. Would lay good odds the military has tons of date on it too and just what the thresholds are.

Great if you need to read or repair something. But potentially horrible if you want to actually be safe from anything not afraid of fire that wants to get to know you better. In the not better sort of way.

I was actually thinking of wolves, which see much better in the dark than we do.  You may not be able to see them lurking outside the firelight, but at least it's a much more even match if they come after you.  For people you are correct - I recently saw a good youtube series on the topic.  I actually think it posted on a discussion here.

Quote from: Omega on July 12, 2021, 11:13:53 PMCampfire will make being snuck up on actually easier in a way. I believe torches have the same effect? Theres some vids up about this. Would lay good odds the military has tons of date on it too and just what the thresholds are.

Interestingly, in the army (Australian, at least) they give you filters to put on your torch, and there's a red filter you use at night. Red light does not destroy your night vision. It's basically impossible to read maps or pencilled notes, you can read dark pen, though - and have enough light to find small items in your pack, etc. It also doesn't carry and attract others' eyes in the dark the way white light will. There are other colours like blue and yellow and green, too, but nobody could ever tell us what they were for, they probably just came as a package deal with the torches.

Continual Light - Red?

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on July 13, 2021, 07:53:11 AM

Quote from: Omega on July 12, 2021, 11:13:53 PMCampfire will make being snuck up on actually easier in a way. I believe torches have the same effect? Theres some vids up about this. Would lay good odds the military has tons of date on it too and just what the thresholds are.

Interestingly, in the army (Australian, at least) they give you filters to put on your torch, and there's a red filter you use at night. Red light does not destroy your night vision. It's basically impossible to read maps or pencilled notes, you can read dark pen, though - and have enough light to find small items in your pack, etc. It also doesn't carry and attract others' eyes in the dark the way white light will. There are other colours like blue and yellow and green, too, but nobody could ever tell us what they were for, they probably just came as a package deal with the torches.

Continual Light - Red?

Red light is also used by pilots at night; during my instrument flight training I spent quite a bit of time flying at night using a red penlight to read maps and the like. Modern books with their nice black print are also pretty readable.

Some sort of magic that produced a mix of red and infrared light would cover most of the actual adventuring needs (heat, light that doesn't wreck night vision) for fire.

I'll just point out that if your 'solution' to campfires aren't realistic enough is to create a magic spell so the wizard is the best outdoorsman as opposed to the ranger, you're exacerbating a much bigger problem. 

Quote from: deadDMwalking on July 13, 2021, 09:28:54 AM
I'll just point out that if your 'solution' to campfires aren't realistic enough is to create a magic spell so the wizard is the best outdoorsman as opposed to the ranger, you're exacerbating a much bigger problem.

If you presume my game even has a ranger class or, if there were a ranger class, that the spell wouldn't be ranger exclusive are equally problematic assumptions.

There is a difference between spending a couple days outdoors, and living outdoors year-round.

You can do minimal camping with just a bedroll and a pot to boil water in, but only for a couple of days. You'd be eating iron rations, which you would not be able to replenish with the equipment at hand. But it could be done for a scouting expedition.

For living outdoors year-round, you're looking at something much more like an American Indian village. Semi-permanent structures that will keep you dry and warm. A lot more support equipment to allow you to cook a broader variety of food, maybe grow some crops, and harvest a broader variety of resources. You would also have the tools to replace or rebuild nearly all of your equipment. You can pack up and move, but you can't live on the move, and typically you would abandon a lot of stuff and rebuild it in the new location when you get there. You can also have your entire family with you.

Note too that, in general, "comfort" equals safety. If you are roughing it with just a bedroll, and you get caught in a blizzard, you are in real danger of freezing to death. If you get sick, or get injured, you could die within walking distance of your home base. Lose any of your equipment: your bedroll, your knife, your food or your cooking gear, and you'll be struggling just to make it back alive.

Please excuse my shorthand. 

If your game requires 'magic' to do things that real-world elite special forces soldiers routinely do even without advanced technology, I think you're missing something fundamental.  Even without magic it is possible to conceal a fire.  Here's One Link talking about how to do it. 

People with wilderness skills/non-weapon proficiencies/appropriate backgrounds (depending on system rules), ought to be able to do things that are pretty incredible.  Obviously there are limits to what 'mundane' characters can do, and there really aren't any limits to 'magic', which by definition breaks the rules of physics - but when you codify a magical spell (just like adding a feat), you imply that you MUST have the spell in order to achieve the effect.  Essentially, you've moved something from 'anyone can attempt this' to 'only characters with this special ability can attempt this'.  Feats have a bad rap here for doing exactly that, but spells can do the same thing. 

Quote from: Lurkndog on July 13, 2021, 10:01:46 AM
There is a difference between spending a couple days outdoors, and living outdoors year-round.

You can do minimal camping with just a bedroll and a pot to boil water in, but only for a couple of days. You'd be eating iron rations, which you would not be able to replenish with the equipment at hand. But it could be done for a scouting expedition.

For living outdoors year-round, you're looking at something much more like an American Indian village. Semi-permanent structures that will keep you dry and warm. A lot more support equipment to allow you to cook a broader variety of food, maybe grow some crops, and harvest a broader variety of resources. You would also have the tools to replace or rebuild nearly all of your equipment. You can pack up and move, but you can't live on the move, and typically you would abandon a lot of stuff and rebuild it in the new location when you get there. You can also have your entire family with you.

Note too that, in general, "comfort" equals safety. If you are roughing it with just a bedroll, and you get caught in a blizzard, you are in real danger of freezing to death. If you get sick, or get injured, you could die within walking distance of your home base. Lose any of your equipment: your bedroll, your knife, your food or your cooking gear, and you'll be struggling just to make it back alive.

Well, you can be a hobo or a pilgrim with nothing but a backpack, so long as there are villages, etc. at which to replenish along the way. You don't need to supply all your own food to "live outdoors year round." I lived this way myself for almost a decade, walking through mountains for 3-5 days at a time to get from one town to the next. Essentials I carried in the 20th century:

- backpack
- warm sleeping bag
- tarp
- foam pad
- stainless steel pot
- water bottle
- flashlight
- lighter
- knife

I also found good boots and a wide-brimmed hat indispensable for living outdoors. The heaviest thing I carried was invariably food and water. Water in particular weights 8 lbs per gallon; carrying enough to drink between water sources can get very heavy quickly.

Regarding the OP, I definitely avoided fires any time I was camped near civilization.

Quote from: Zalman on July 13, 2021, 10:23:47 AM

Quote from: Lurkndog on July 13, 2021, 10:01:46 AM
There is a difference between spending a couple days outdoors, and living outdoors year-round.

You can do minimal camping with just a bedroll and a pot to boil water in, but only for a couple of days. You'd be eating iron rations, which you would not be able to replenish with the equipment at hand. But it could be done for a scouting expedition.

For living outdoors year-round, you're looking at something much more like an American Indian village. Semi-permanent structures that will keep you dry and warm. A lot more support equipment to allow you to cook a broader variety of food, maybe grow some crops, and harvest a broader variety of resources. You would also have the tools to replace or rebuild nearly all of your equipment. You can pack up and move, but you can't live on the move, and typically you would abandon a lot of stuff and rebuild it in the new location when you get there. You can also have your entire family with you.

Note too that, in general, "comfort" equals safety. If you are roughing it with just a bedroll, and you get caught in a blizzard, you are in real danger of freezing to death. If you get sick, or get injured, you could die within walking distance of your home base. Lose any of your equipment: your bedroll, your knife, your food or your cooking gear, and you'll be struggling just to make it back alive.

Well, you can be a hobo or a pilgrim with nothing but a backpack, so long as there are villages, etc. at which to replenish along the way. You don't need to supply all your own food to "live outdoors year round." I lived this way myself for almost a decade, walking through mountains for 3-5 days at a time to get from one town to the next. Essentials I carried in the 20th century:

- backpack
- warm sleeping bag
- tarp
- foam pad
- stainless steel pot
- water bottle
- flashlight
- lighter
- knife

I also found good boots and a wide-brimmed hat indispensable for living outdoors. The heaviest thing I carried was invariably food and water. Water in particular weights 8 lbs per gallon; carrying enough to drink between water sources can get very heavy quickly.

Regarding the OP, I definitely avoided fires any time I was camped near civilization.

   You left out the A number 1 essential in that list.  Money.  without that, I think your experience would have been quite different.