Quote from: Effete on August 07, 2023, 07:51:39 PM

Quote from: BadApple on August 07, 2023, 01:09:37 PM
i don't really do the Urban Fantasy thing but I think if I did I would have regular professions as PC classes.  I love the idea of regular people making it in a hostile world.  Imagine an EMT, a cop, and a plumber fighting off a tribe of goblins pouring through a trans-dimensional gate.

Would these really be "classes" though, or just more akin to Backgrounds? What abilities would a plumber gain over 10 or so levels that make it significantly different to an electrician or machinist? Seems like you can just have an generic "Engineer" class, and let the player fill in the specifics of their specialty. GMs can then just ad hoc bonuses as they pertain. "Oh, you're an electrician? Okay, Target Number for defusing the bomb is slightly lower."

You would only need a handful of these generically defined classes to encompass a whole slough of professions. "Wheelman" can cover anything from bus driver to NASCAR. "Medic" can be an EMT (specialist in first aid) or a brain surgeon (specialist in head trauma).

Me personally, I love to take the mundane elements of a PC and bring them to the fore as an asset.  Having normal careers as full on classes is an idea I love.  Sure you know how to stab a feral hog monster but can cook some tasty bbq ribs that can tempt the dwarves to the table to negotiate a treaty?

I think a practical way to do it would be to do it with very broad careers like "trades" or "medical" and then use more specific careers as sub classes. 

With something like trades/electrician with trades class features being around tools, structural understanding,  maintenance, and repairs where the electrician subclass would start out with the ability to check for power and render electrical systems safe and get to a point where they can reprogram PLCs.  Obviously, trades could have a LOT of sub classes.  an interesting feature you could do with the Trades class is that every couple of levels, they can pick up another trade and level both up at the same time.  This reflects real life trades workers that are motivated and skilled.

Business could be a class though being an adventurer would seem an ill fit at first glance.  I actually could see them being a bit of a bard type class with negotiation and sales while also being able to look at documents and sort them out quickly.

Military and police could be a single class with more distinction made in sub classes.  Or it could be several, the military has a lot of jobs and police do some incredible things physically.

Obviously, engineering, sciences, firefighters, drivers of all kinds, surveyors, are some professions that have things that would be excellent skills for adventurers.  I would love to add some kind of martial arts instructor or MMA competitor to the mix as well.  (gotta have a Master Ken PC.)

A class that I think would be solid for this kind of play would be a cook of some kind.  Knife skills to start combat with but also support skills to feed people, preserve food, boot morale, provide nutrition to aide in healing.  I'd play this PC in a hot minute.

With all of this, it would be on the GM to give the players problems they can solve as regular people with regular jobs mix in with clubbing rogue goblins with an 1 & 5/8" wrench.  Frankly, the whole blue collar normal dude making it in a rough world is both very entertaining to me and heroic feeling at a level it's hard to identify with something like 5e.   

Don't get me wrong, you could run this as one campaign and then have another set in the same world where the PCs are classes that are dialed in for adventuring.  You could have a mix of traditional fantasy classes mixed with classes that are high end modern operators like EOD and Army Rangers.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 07, 2023, 09:10:59 PM
The concept of character classes doesn't really make sense for a game set on modern Earth. We know real life doesn't work like character classes in a ttrpg. d20 Modern tried building its base classes around the six ability scores instead. You can argue how well that worked, but I don't think there's anything better they could've done.

I think it can if you do it right.  I would certainly describe some modern professions as ready-for-D&D class structure.  Military SpecOps, Police (particularly with things like detectives and SWAT), and fire fighters are almost there already. 

Have you read Everyday Heroes? They're updating d20 Modern to 5e. Apparently they intend to adapt Urban Arcana too.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 07, 2023, 09:48:22 PM
Have you read Everyday Heroes? They're updating d20 Modern to 5e. Apparently they intend to adapt Urban Arcana too.

Nope, but it's about Action Movies no? I mean everyday Heroes.

Urban Arcana for 5e, yes I'm not worried about them.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 07, 2023, 09:10:59 PM
The concept of character classes doesn't really make sense for a game set on modern Earth. We know real life doesn't work like character classes in a ttrpg. d20 Modern tried building its base classes around the six ability scores instead. You can argue how well that worked, but I don't think there's anything better they could've done.

Really? So anyone can do what a Special Ops soldier can? Without the training? Or perform surgery?

IMHO what you need is different classes.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 07, 2023, 10:40:49 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 07, 2023, 09:10:59 PM
The concept of character classes doesn't really make sense for a game set on modern Earth. We know real life doesn't work like character classes in a ttrpg. d20 Modern tried building its base classes around the six ability scores instead. You can argue how well that worked, but I don't think there's anything better they could've done.

Really? So anyone can do what a Special Ops soldier can? Without the training? Or perform surgery?

IMHO what you need is different classes.

What I mean is that real life operates according to a skill-based system, not a level-based system. Insofar as that sentence makes any sense at all.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 08, 2023, 08:41:01 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 07, 2023, 10:40:49 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 07, 2023, 09:10:59 PM
The concept of character classes doesn't really make sense for a game set on modern Earth. We know real life doesn't work like character classes in a ttrpg. d20 Modern tried building its base classes around the six ability scores instead. You can argue how well that worked, but I don't think there's anything better they could've done.

Really? So anyone can do what a Special Ops soldier can? Without the training? Or perform surgery?

IMHO what you need is different classes.

What I mean is that real life operates according to a skill-based system, not a level-based system. Insofar as that sentence makes any sense at all.

I agree with you and I prefer skill based games myself.

But

Level based games are the norm for what OP is doing and if it's handled with a bit of care it can work. 

If you were to take a soldier and make him a class, you can start him out as a basic infantry graduate and then level him up through Airborne, mountain warfare, Rangers, Special Forces, and finally War college.  This would work in a level based system and reflect the career trajectory of a lot of elite operators.  To make it even more will rounded, you could add branching levels as well through different career paths.  (There really isn't a template for the exact route a high level soldier gets training to become what he does.  Each Green Beret has a lot of overlapping training but unique to his own opportunities and aptitudes.)

OTOH, you could take that same soldier character in a skill based system and give him the starting collection of skills you think a GI grunt has and then add to those skills to represent his career growth.

In reality, neither one truly reflects reality.  Soldiers go through short high intensity training period where they gain skills followed by longer periods of low intensity (and mundane) work up until they go through another training period or are called up to war.  The other thing is that training can give an incredible amount of skills quickly but ultimately some things are only picked up through field experience.  There are excellent examples of men with not much advanced training but having both field experience and bravery are able to perform at legendary levels.  (Look up John Daily)

TL;DR - We aren't simulationists.  Playing RPGs takes a lot of suspension of disbelief but good game designs meet us in the middle.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 08, 2023, 08:41:01 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 07, 2023, 10:40:49 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on August 07, 2023, 09:10:59 PM
The concept of character classes doesn't really make sense for a game set on modern Earth. We know real life doesn't work like character classes in a ttrpg. d20 Modern tried building its base classes around the six ability scores instead. You can argue how well that worked, but I don't think there's anything better they could've done.

Really? So anyone can do what a Special Ops soldier can? Without the training? Or perform surgery?

IMHO what you need is different classes.

What I mean is that real life operates according to a skill-based system, not a level-based system. Insofar as that sentence makes any sense at all.

AFAIK there's no Vampires, Werewolves, zombies, etc IRL.

What you might take 30+ minutes building in systems like Hero it's the same as what I give you prebuilt in the OSR.

It's not a simulation of real life, it's a game.

Ok, this is just for fun on my part.  This thread got me thinking about what kind of adventures could you do with a urban fantasy setting that you wouldn't do with a standard fantasy.  It's not the fantastic tropes that make it a great idea, it's the more mundane things you get to bring close proximity to the fantastic that makes it fun.  With that in mind, you can actually use modern maps as handouts.

First adventure idea
Type: Fantasy invasion of the real world survival sandbox
Location: Boston
PCs: USN sailors on liberty during Fleet Week
The setup:  The PCs are a group of sailors going back to their ship after a night on the town.  They are in a subway station waiting for their ride when all hell breaks loose.  A group of goblins come down onto the platform and then the entrance collapses.  A small opener combat.  Afterwards, the PCs find themselves on a platform with dead goblins, a dozen people (some injured), and no direct access to the surface. 
The campaign: Maps of the Boston subway system and street maps for Boston are given to the players as handouts and in game artifacts.  I really comes down to what the sailors want to do.  They can simply take up arms and defend the city, take the others on the platform under their protection and try to find safety for them, they might try and return to their ship, or they might be enthralled by the idea of magic and try to pursue it.  There is an evil dark lord looking to acquire firearms for his fantasy realm that's doing the invading but there are also friendly (if the PCs talk to them) other world scouts trying to put a stop to his plans.  Firearms have been effective but the dark lords army has been overwhelming the police with massive human waves (goblin waves?).  A few giants and a dragon have been unleashed onto the streets of Boston as well, the dragon having caused the subway entrance collapse.

Second adventure idea
Type: Hidden world episodic sandbox detective?
Location: Pick a city, I like a smaller city for this one
PCs: Job seekers that answered a posting
Set up:  The PCs are at a strip mall in an unfinished, mostly empty unit.  The floor is bare concrete, there's a row of cheap metal folding chairs for the interviewees, and is the middle of the room is a large oak desk big enough for a pool table.  They are there answering a listing for "technical field work assistant, no experience or degree required."  As the PCs wait, an older man in a brown business suit of  a 1920s vintage comes in and tells them he doesn't have time to do proper sit down interviews but they should follow him to his next job site where he can evaluate him and they can learn about the job.
The campaign:  This is a Witcher/MIB type game where the old man is a wizard and monster hunter that's getting too old for the job so he needs some younger people to do the heavy lifting.  After one or two times with him in the field, he gets hurt and he runs the show from the office.  A GM should use the old man as a source of direction and suggestions but carefully avoid too much exposition.  (He is an old man so long, rambling stories that never get to the point should be common.)  If I were to do this, I would acquire a number of bestiary books that don't have stats as in game artifacts and I would produce handouts that give clues to features about the monster without giving clear descriptions.  The job should be two fold, find and neutralize the monster and then clean it up as to leave behind the least amount of evidence.   

Quote from: BadApple on August 09, 2023, 03:45:51 PM
Ok, this is just for fun on my part.  This thread got me thinking about what kind of adventures could you do with a urban fantasy setting that you wouldn't do with a standard fantasy.  It's not the fantastic tropes that make it a great idea, it's the more mundane things you get to bring close proximity to the fantastic that makes it fun.  With that in mind, you can actually use modern maps as handouts.

First adventure idea
Type: Fantasy invasion of the real world survival sandbox
Location: Boston
PCs: USN sailors on liberty during Fleet Week
The setup:  The PCs are a group of sailors going back to their ship after a night on the town.  They are in a subway station waiting for their ride when all hell breaks loose.  A group of goblins come down onto the platform and then the entrance collapses.  A small opener combat.  Afterwards, the PCs find themselves on a platform with dead goblins, a dozen people (some injured), and no direct access to the surface. 
The campaign: Maps of the Boston subway system and street maps for Boston are given to the players as handouts and in game artifacts.  I really comes down to what the sailors want to do.  They can simply take up arms and defend the city, take the others on the platform under their protection and try to find safety for them, they might try and return to their ship, or they might be enthralled by the idea of magic and try to pursue it.  There is an evil dark lord looking to acquire firearms for his fantasy realm that's doing the invading but there are also friendly (if the PCs talk to them) other world scouts trying to put a stop to his plans.  Firearms have been effective but the dark lords army has been overwhelming the police with massive human waves (goblin waves?).  A few giants and a dragon have been unleashed onto the streets of Boston as well, the dragon having caused the subway entrance collapse.

Second adventure idea
Type: Hidden world episodic sandbox detective?
Location: Pick a city, I like a smaller city for this one
PCs: Job seekers that answered a posting
Set up:  The PCs are at a strip mall in an unfinished, mostly empty unit.  The floor is bare concrete, there's a row of cheap metal folding chairs for the interviewees, and is the middle of the room is a large oak desk big enough for a pool table.  They are there answering a listing for "technical field work assistant, no experience or degree required."  As the PCs wait, an older man in a brown business suit of  a 1920s vintage comes in and tells them he doesn't have time to do proper sit down interviews but they should follow him to his next job site where he can evaluate him and they can learn about the job.
The campaign:  This is a Witcher/MIB type game where the old man is a wizard and monster hunter that's getting too old for the job so he needs some younger people to do the heavy lifting.  After one or two times with him in the field, he gets hurt and he runs the show from the office.  A GM should use the old man as a source of direction and suggestions but carefully avoid too much exposition.  (He is an old man so long, rambling stories that never get to the point should be common.)  If I were to do this, I would acquire a number of bestiary books that don't have stats as in game artifacts and I would produce handouts that give clues to features about the monster without giving clear descriptions.  The job should be two fold, find and neutralize the monster and then clean it up as to leave behind the least amount of evidence.

Yes, the first is what I call Invasion!, while the second is your standar fare monster hunting where some of the PCs might not be human (unless wizards ARE human and it's something anyone could potentially learn, then it's humans vs monsters).

There's also the Monstrous Protectors, where the PCs are monsters fighting evil monsters

Lastly there's the Supernatural War, where one type of monsters and it's allies are fighting other type of monsters and their allies.

My plan is to have all of those as potential playstyles/campaigns ergo the need for more playable classes and races than your typical OSR game.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2023, 03:56:57 PM

Quote from: BadApple on August 09, 2023, 03:45:51 PM
Ok, this is just for fun on my part.  This thread got me thinking about what kind of adventures could you do with a urban fantasy setting that you wouldn't do with a standard fantasy.  It's not the fantastic tropes that make it a great idea, it's the more mundane things you get to bring close proximity to the fantastic that makes it fun.  With that in mind, you can actually use modern maps as handouts.

First adventure idea
Type: Fantasy invasion of the real world survival sandbox
Location: Boston
PCs: USN sailors on liberty during Fleet Week
The setup:  The PCs are a group of sailors going back to their ship after a night on the town.  They are in a subway station waiting for their ride when all hell breaks loose.  A group of goblins come down onto the platform and then the entrance collapses.  A small opener combat.  Afterwards, the PCs find themselves on a platform with dead goblins, a dozen people (some injured), and no direct access to the surface. 
The campaign: Maps of the Boston subway system and street maps for Boston are given to the players as handouts and in game artifacts.  I really comes down to what the sailors want to do.  They can simply take up arms and defend the city, take the others on the platform under their protection and try to find safety for them, they might try and return to their ship, or they might be enthralled by the idea of magic and try to pursue it.  There is an evil dark lord looking to acquire firearms for his fantasy realm that's doing the invading but there are also friendly (if the PCs talk to them) other world scouts trying to put a stop to his plans.  Firearms have been effective but the dark lords army has been overwhelming the police with massive human waves (goblin waves?).  A few giants and a dragon have been unleashed onto the streets of Boston as well, the dragon having caused the subway entrance collapse.

Second adventure idea
Type: Hidden world episodic sandbox detective?
Location: Pick a city, I like a smaller city for this one
PCs: Job seekers that answered a posting
Set up:  The PCs are at a strip mall in an unfinished, mostly empty unit.  The floor is bare concrete, there's a row of cheap metal folding chairs for the interviewees, and is the middle of the room is a large oak desk big enough for a pool table.  They are there answering a listing for "technical field work assistant, no experience or degree required."  As the PCs wait, an older man in a brown business suit of  a 1920s vintage comes in and tells them he doesn't have time to do proper sit down interviews but they should follow him to his next job site where he can evaluate him and they can learn about the job.
The campaign:  This is a Witcher/MIB type game where the old man is a wizard and monster hunter that's getting too old for the job so he needs some younger people to do the heavy lifting.  After one or two times with him in the field, he gets hurt and he runs the show from the office.  A GM should use the old man as a source of direction and suggestions but carefully avoid too much exposition.  (He is an old man so long, rambling stories that never get to the point should be common.)  If I were to do this, I would acquire a number of bestiary books that don't have stats as in game artifacts and I would produce handouts that give clues to features about the monster without giving clear descriptions.  The job should be two fold, find and neutralize the monster and then clean it up as to leave behind the least amount of evidence.

Yes, the first is what I call Invasion!, while the second is your standar fare monster hunting where some of the PCs might not be human (unless wizards ARE human and it's something anyone could potentially learn, then it's humans vs monsters).

There's also the Monstrous Protectors, where the PCs are monsters fighting evil monsters

Lastly there's the Supernatural War, where one type of monsters and it's allies are fighting other type of monsters and their allies.

My plan is to have all of those as potential playstyles/campaigns ergo the need for more playable classes and races than your typical OSR game.

In the second scenario, I would assume that wizards are human and anyone could learn magic.  I would also assume that not all fantastic creatures are monsters.  I would love the idea of being able to go to a library through a magical door that's staffed by dwarven librarians and meeting a fairy informant in the park near the flower beds while trying to keep it low key.

Also, in my mind, a monster is defined by behavior; destructive and malevolent behavior intentionally directed at the innocent.  With that, a human can be a monster and a troll just a creature.  Also, a large mindless creature can still be a problem even if it's not malevolent.   

Quote from: BadApple on August 09, 2023, 04:18:44 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2023, 03:56:57 PM

Quote from: BadApple on August 09, 2023, 03:45:51 PM
Ok, this is just for fun on my part.  This thread got me thinking about what kind of adventures could you do with a urban fantasy setting that you wouldn't do with a standard fantasy.  It's not the fantastic tropes that make it a great idea, it's the more mundane things you get to bring close proximity to the fantastic that makes it fun.  With that in mind, you can actually use modern maps as handouts.

First adventure idea
Type: Fantasy invasion of the real world survival sandbox
Location: Boston
PCs: USN sailors on liberty during Fleet Week
The setup:  The PCs are a group of sailors going back to their ship after a night on the town.  They are in a subway station waiting for their ride when all hell breaks loose.  A group of goblins come down onto the platform and then the entrance collapses.  A small opener combat.  Afterwards, the PCs find themselves on a platform with dead goblins, a dozen people (some injured), and no direct access to the surface. 
The campaign: Maps of the Boston subway system and street maps for Boston are given to the players as handouts and in game artifacts.  I really comes down to what the sailors want to do.  They can simply take up arms and defend the city, take the others on the platform under their protection and try to find safety for them, they might try and return to their ship, or they might be enthralled by the idea of magic and try to pursue it.  There is an evil dark lord looking to acquire firearms for his fantasy realm that's doing the invading but there are also friendly (if the PCs talk to them) other world scouts trying to put a stop to his plans.  Firearms have been effective but the dark lords army has been overwhelming the police with massive human waves (goblin waves?).  A few giants and a dragon have been unleashed onto the streets of Boston as well, the dragon having caused the subway entrance collapse.

Second adventure idea
Type: Hidden world episodic sandbox detective?
Location: Pick a city, I like a smaller city for this one
PCs: Job seekers that answered a posting
Set up:  The PCs are at a strip mall in an unfinished, mostly empty unit.  The floor is bare concrete, there's a row of cheap metal folding chairs for the interviewees, and is the middle of the room is a large oak desk big enough for a pool table.  They are there answering a listing for "technical field work assistant, no experience or degree required."  As the PCs wait, an older man in a brown business suit of  a 1920s vintage comes in and tells them he doesn't have time to do proper sit down interviews but they should follow him to his next job site where he can evaluate him and they can learn about the job.
The campaign:  This is a Witcher/MIB type game where the old man is a wizard and monster hunter that's getting too old for the job so he needs some younger people to do the heavy lifting.  After one or two times with him in the field, he gets hurt and he runs the show from the office.  A GM should use the old man as a source of direction and suggestions but carefully avoid too much exposition.  (He is an old man so long, rambling stories that never get to the point should be common.)  If I were to do this, I would acquire a number of bestiary books that don't have stats as in game artifacts and I would produce handouts that give clues to features about the monster without giving clear descriptions.  The job should be two fold, find and neutralize the monster and then clean it up as to leave behind the least amount of evidence.

Yes, the first is what I call Invasion!, while the second is your standar fare monster hunting where some of the PCs might not be human (unless wizards ARE human and it's something anyone could potentially learn, then it's humans vs monsters).

There's also the Monstrous Protectors, where the PCs are monsters fighting evil monsters

Lastly there's the Supernatural War, where one type of monsters and it's allies are fighting other type of monsters and their allies.

My plan is to have all of those as potential playstyles/campaigns ergo the need for more playable classes and races than your typical OSR game.

In the second scenario, I would assume that wizards are human and anyone could learn magic.  I would also assume that not all fantastic creatures are monsters.  I would love the idea of being able to go to a library through a magical door that's staffed by dwarven librarians and meeting a fairy informant in the park near the flower beds while trying to keep it low key.

Also, in my mind, a monster is defined by behavior; destructive and malevolent behavior intentionally directed at the innocent.  With that, a human can be a monster and a troll just a creature.  Also, a large mindless creature can still be a problem even if it's not malevolent.   

You're thinking of standard current year Urban Fantasy, I enjoy it too, and my use of monster isn't related to morality or actions as my use of monsters vs evil monsters should make evident.

I would find way more fresh a campaign where only humans are the good guys and all non-humans are vil, like the Brothers Grimm's tales (mostly, some evil humans around there too).

But once published it's your game, your table and your world, if you want to play Twilight have at it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 09, 2023, 04:26:58 PM
But once published it's your game, your table and your world, if you want to play Twilight have at it.

Honestly, I love the fact that you don't see it the same way as me.  That just means if we ever share a table, we can each bring something fresh.

BTW, a lot of my personal interpretation of traditional fantasy creatures comes from George Macdonald's books.  Phantastes: A Fairie Romance for Men and Women, Princess and and the Goblin, and Lilith are three books that are particularly influential to me. 

Quote from: BadApple on August 09, 2023, 04:53:32 PM
BTW, a lot of my personal interpretation of traditional fantasy creatures comes from George Macdonald's books.  Phantastes: A Fairie Romance for Men and Women, Princess and and the Goblin, and Lilith are three books that are particularly influential to me.

Never read it, my partial Appendix N:

Mercy Thompson, Patricia Briggs
Monster Hunter Intl, Larry Correia
Buffy
Kolchack The Night Stalker
Underworld
Van Helsing (the Hugh Jackman movie)