An article (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/antiscience.html) at darkshire discusses magic systems and how they typically relate to other mechanics. One of the points was "Magic is a force separate from Nature," which mentioned that typical magic sub-systems are neatly self-contained rather than interacting with other sub-systems like skills. The examples given include magic being detected and nullified independently of non-magic, healing skills and healing spells operating independently, weapon manufacture and magical enchantment operating independently, and "speak with animals" being a spell with limited duration rather than a language choice.
I am trying to build a setting that defies this conceit and unifies magical and non-magical mechanics, but I do not know where to start hacking the rules (OSR, 5e, I'm flexible). Would anyone provide advice or references?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;968764An article (http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/antiscience.html) at darkshire discusses magic systems and how they typically relate to other mechanics. One of the points was "Magic is a force separate from Nature," which mentioned that typical magic sub-systems are neatly self-contained rather than interacting with other sub-systems like skills. The examples given include magic being detected and nullified independently of non-magic, healing skills and healing spells operating independently, weapon manufacture and magical enchantment operating independently, and "speak with animals" being a spell with limited duration rather than a language choice.
I am trying to build a setting that defies this conceit and unifies magical and non-magical mechanics, but I do not know where to start hacking the rules (OSR, 5e, I'm flexible). Would anyone provide advice or references?
Of all D&D, 4e went much the furthest towards magic being a natural part of the world, operating at the same level as anything else. They tried "non magical" Rituals called Martial Practices in one book which unfortunately took the wrong tack - needed a different feat from the magic rituals and generally gave weaker effects. But it was a good start. You could at least be a great smith and make a +1 or +5 weapon, without having Arcana skill. I would suggest checking out the 4e PHB at least for the Rituals and Martial Power 2 for Martial Practices, but integrate them more fully.
4e informs how I run 5e - so eg a strong character might use their Athletics to contest against a Wizard's Arcana & break into their Tiny Hut. :D
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;968764I am trying to build a setting that defies this conceit and unifies magical and non-magical mechanics, but I do not know where to start hacking the rules (OSR, 5e, I'm flexible). Would anyone provide advice or references?
Earthdawn's been unifying magical and non-magical effects for decades.
Yeah, I definitely recommend Earthdawn for a great example of how to pull this off. It is very OSR compatible, and I think from the FASA buzz that we will be getting a 4e Quickstart package soon. I'll make sure to post a link once it's available.
Quote from: AsenRG;968976Earthdawn's been unifying magical and non-magical effects for decades.
Quote from: Telarus;969380Yeah, I definitely recommend Earthdawn for a great example of how to pull this off. It is very OSR compatible, and I think from the FASA buzz that we will be getting a 4e Quickstart package soon. I'll make sure to post a link once it's available.
What reference would you recommend? Please cite the book and section, if possible.
OK, well first of all and central to the system, all character abilities and most other "ratings" in the system use a unified mechanic called "Step Dice". The 4E Player's Guide "Game Concepts" Chapter starts off like this:
QuoteGAME CONCEPTS
Do you think you can simply ignore the laws of the universe?
-- Gavna Hallok, Wizard
This chapter introduces you to the Earthdawn game and explains the key concepts and terms used. Some are terms common to most roleplaying games, others are unique to Earthdawn. Whether you are an experienced gamer or new to roleplaying, once you understand how these concepts operate in Earthdawn, the rest of the rules will fall easily into place.
Steps And Action Dice
Almost all abilities in Earthdawn are rated by Rank and Step numbers. Rank is the measure of proficiency in a talent or skill. Ranks are usually added to an Attribute to determine a Step number. The Step determines what dice a player rolls to perform actions in the game. Steps are ordered on an increasing scale, and each level of this scale corresponds to different dice. The Step/Dice Table lists Step numbers and their corresponding dice.
Darra has a Dexterity Step of 7 and Rank 3 with Melee Weapons. This gives her a Step 10 (7 + 3 = 10). Looking up this Step on the Step/Dice Table, Darra's player notes that she rolls 2D8 when using her Melee Weapons.
Earthdawn uses six different types of polyhedral dice: four-sided (D4), six-sided (D6), eight-sided (D8), ten-sided (D10), twelve-sided (D12), and twenty-sided (D20) dice. These dice don't come with the game, but are available in most gaming stores. Whenever a character attempts an action like casting a spell, swinging a sword at an enemy, tracking a Horror, or flirting with a barmaid, you roll the dice to determine the action's outcome. These dice rolls are called tests. To make a test, you roll the appropriate dice based on the Step and add the individual die results together to determine the test result.
In most published Earthdawn products, attributes, talents, skills, and the like are presented Step Number/Dice (for example Step 8/2D6).
Bonus Dice
When you roll the highest possible number on a die, you immediately roll another die of the same type—this is called a bonus die. Add the result of the roll to the total of any dice already rolled to determine the final result. If you roll the maximum value on a bonus die, you roll another one. This continues for as long as the maximum possible result for the die is rolled.
And then describes "Adepts" (those who channel the natural mana through their skills and abilities, referred to as "Talents"):
QuoteAdepts and Disciplines
The world of Earthdawn is suffused with magic. The most talented characters, including yours, are initiated in the use of magic. Such characters are called adepts. Some adepts train to cast spells; some train to use swords or other weapons; others train to work with animals. The form of magical training chosen by your character is his Discipline. This training focuses the magical energies of your character into special abilities called talents. Each Discipline offers a unique selection of talents. Characters of some Disciplines—collectively known as magicians—possess the ability to cast spells.
All adepts are rated in their Discipline according to their knowledge and experience. These ratings are called Circles. Adept characters usually begin the game at First Circle. Though characters tend to specialize in one Discipline, some learn talents from other Disciplines, or learn a new Discipline in addition to their first. The different Disciplines are described in the Disciplines chapter, starting on p. 78. The talents available to each Discipline are described in the Talents chapter, p. 118. Descriptions for non-magical skills can be found in the Skills chapter, p. 182 The Workings of Magic chapter, p. 202, explains more about magic and magical theory. After each game session, the gamemaster awards Legend Points based on how well your character and his allies performed during the session. You can also earn Legend Points based on how well you portrayed, or roleplayed, your character. You spend Legend Points to increase the ranks of your character's talents and abilities, eventually allowing him to advance his Circle. When an adept reaches a new Discipline Circle, he gets access to new talents and abilities.
The Building Your Legend chapter, p. 444, has information on how you use Legend Points to improve your character's talents and skills, and how the accumulation of Legend Points affects those who come into contact with the character, in person or by reputation.
And the main difference between Talents and Skills is the use of Karma Dice:
QuoteKarma
All adepts, as well as some of the more powerful creatures of the world, are able to tap into the magical energy of the world to enhance their abilities. This magical energy is known as Karma. The use of Karma is simulated through Karma Points and Karma dice.
Adepts use Karma to enhance their magical talents. Unless noted otherwise, spending a Karma Point on a talent allows the adept to roll an additional D6 and add it to the result of the test. As with all dice rolled on a test, Karma dice can result in bonus dice. Special circumstances, magic, or even Horror taint can increase a character's Karma Step later in the game.
A couple of early systems that didn't mechanically unify, were RuneQuest and Rolemaster/MERP. Magic there was mechanically different than the skill system, but everyone could and frequently did know some magic, it was omnipresent. Blacksmiths used minor spells to enhance their skills or tools, for example. Also in Rolemaster a lot of the healing is due to intrinsic capabilities of Herbs prepared and administered with traditional skills.
Mythic Rome for Mythras has certain magical abilities simply be skills:
Theology
Divination
Cursing
Necromancy
Pharmacy
eaven Shapeshifting
Earthdawn and 4e as mentioned are good examples of "all PCs are magic".
Sorry if this is considered a necro, but I have been thinking more on this topic recently and decided to revive this thread rather than make a new one.
In terms of flexible magic systems the noun/verb mechanic seems to be typical, as in Ars Magica or 4x5 Magic. This generally doesn't interact with the non-magic skill system. Trying to unify mundane and magic skills can be tricky. With a free form skill list there's no reason to worry about things like having separate magical and non-magical healing or crafting. With a fixed skill list it is easy to fall into the trap of dividing magic and non-magic arbitrarily.
In the rules for Qwixalted I found a simple mechanic that took what I thought to be a creative take on the concept, similar to Earthdawn (I think? I haven't read the Earthdawn book). All the skills are mundane, but then one of five additional traits may be applied to the skills to alter their parameters. These additional traits, labeled "charms," are pace, scope, range, supernatural and prowess. Pace alters the pace of the skill result, such as delaying the harm inflicted by an attack or speeding up travel. Scope alters the scope of a skill result, such as building multiple huts at once or attacking multiple enemies at once. Range alters the range of a skill result, such as throwing a javelin to the horizon or seeing from a distance. Prowess is a simple boosting of success, even beyond human limits. Supernatural allows the skill to be applied when logically impossible, such as crafting objects from laughter or running across water or air; by default there aren't apparent limitations to potential applications, but one of the optional house rules has it being limited to what is thematic for the character class.
I don't know if there is already a name for that sort of mechanic, but I'll call it "skill/parameter" by analogy with noun/verb magic. It is perhaps the best mechanic for approximating what I am looking for, but I am not really familiar with any other mechanics so I know not if it really is the best.
EDIT: another idea (http://vedronspotionshop.blogspot.com/2009/03/verb-noun-magic-systems.html) I saw was to apply the noun/verb system to mundane actions too. For example, fighters would have attack and defend verbs and weaponry nouns. This can also approximate the charms from Qwixalted as additional modifiers, e.g. dodging an arrow despite being tied to a tree would be noun: athletics + verb: defend + modifier: supernatural.
Alternately, a "realm" based syntax (http://pseudoboo.blogspot.com/2016/02/mechanics-syntactic-magic.html) could be used instead of noun/verb.
Well, historically, magic was seen as a part (albeit a mysterious part) of creation. Of the natural world. Medieval and renaissance magicians often went by the title of "natural philosopher".
And the lines were very blurred between things like herbalism or chemistry and magic.
In Lion & Dragon I don't make a big point of trying to integrate magic into other skills or things like that, but I do make magicians into the lorekeepers of the game: they are the ones who are the highly-educated experts on a variety of topics, and certainly including things like the apothecary arts and alchemical sciences.
Also, a lot of magic is about learning or revealing things.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1012943Well, historically, magic was seen as a part (albeit a mysterious part) of creation. Of the natural world. Medieval and renaissance magicians often went by the title of "natural philosopher".
And the lines were very blurred between things like herbalism or chemistry and magic.
In Lion & Dragon I don't make a big point of trying to integrate magic into other skills or things like that, but I do make magicians into the lorekeepers of the game: they are the ones who are the highly-educated experts on a variety of topics, and certainly including things like the apothecary arts and alchemical sciences.
Also, a lot of magic is about learning or revealing things.
That's how I think of it as well. In my idealized setting, magic is the applied knowledge of manipulating the universe.
Putting it into practice is difficult because of the baked-in assumptions in most systems that spells, skills and combat are separate mechanics. I gave some example in the first post, but there's probably loads I cannot remember.
I don't know if anyone else feels the same, but IMO a magic-user who interacts with magic through a variation of mundane skills feels more evocative than one who simply casts a spell. For example, a shadow blacksmith who physically concentrates shadow and then crafts it into items with shadow properties.
I think its more a matter of the idea that learning magic takes time and/or effort.
Example in 5e anyone can pick up a few spells. but only if they put some effort into it. Reaching level 4 and/or finding an NPC willing to teach that feat. In the playtest you could take that further and build on it. I wish theyd kept that.
Quote from: Omega;1013629I think its more a matter of the idea that learning magic takes time and/or effort.
Example in 5e anyone can pick up a few spells. but only if they put some effort into it. Reaching level 4 and/or finding an NPC willing to teach that feat. In the playtest you could take that further and build on it. I wish theyd kept that.
You could apply that logic to any skill. If herbalism and alchemy are "magic", why can't artifice or sword fighting be? Despite what movies might tell you, sword fighting, archery, etc takes years to learn.
Play Earthdawn. Seriously. Every "character class" is a set of related Secret Societies that teach you the magic of your trade.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1013687You could apply that logic to any skill. If herbalism and alchemy are "magic", why can't artifice or sword fighting be? Despite what movies might tell you, sword fighting, archery, etc takes years to learn.
Well, I think like most skills, indeed like swordfighting or archery, magic was something that would require a long period of apprenticeship to learn the basics, and then ongoing lifelong but largely self-driven study to continue to perfect your craft.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1013562That's how I think of it as well. In my idealized setting, magic is the applied knowledge of manipulating the universe.
Putting it into practice is difficult because of the baked-in assumptions in most systems that spells, skills and combat are separate mechanics. I gave some example in the first post, but there's probably loads I cannot remember.
I don't know if anyone else feels the same, but IMO a magic-user who interacts with magic through a variation of mundane skills feels more evocative than one who simply casts a spell. For example, a shadow blacksmith who physically concentrates shadow and then crafts it into items with shadow properties.
I agree that having separate mechanics for spells does seem to enforce that magic is distinct from the mundane. If you're retrofitting systems to be like this, I wonder if using spell mechanics for a mix of tasks would be good. i.e. Spell mechanics are used for both for stuff considered mundane and stuff considered magical from a 21st century view.
A tricky part might be daily limits on spells - which are common in systems, but don't fit well with what we consider mundane. However, in 5th edition D&D, for example, this can be done by making the spells cantrips or ritual.
Something I want to throw out there is S. John Ross' "Hedge Magic" deal for GURPS (https://web.archive.org/web/20080402161741/http://www.io.com:80/~sjohn/hedge.htm). It's not an overly long article, but the TL;DR version is that use of otherwise mundane skills just plain work better, with the use of appropriate folk rituals and suchlike. Using Physician skill to treat a sick patient will result in him getting better faster; using Animal Handling on that out-of-control horse (along with a few chanted Secret Words and the proper sign) will calm it down; using Meteorology skill would divine the weather a day or so sooner, and give insights into just how bad that blizzard would be. And so on.
Quote from: Ravenswing;1014415Something I want to throw out there is S. John Ross' "Hedge Magic" deal for GURPS (https://web.archive.org/web/20080402161741/http://www.io.com:80/~sjohn/hedge.htm). It's not an overly long article, but the TL;DR version is that use of otherwise mundane skills just plain work better, with the use of appropriate folk rituals and suchlike. Using Physician skill to treat a sick patient will result in him getting better faster; using Animal Handling on that out-of-control horse (along with a few chanted Secret Words and the proper sign) will calm it down; using Meteorology skill would divine the weather a day or so sooner, and give insights into just how bad that blizzard would be. And so on.
Thank you, that looks really useful. Oh, and I found a mirror (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/hedge.htm) on another site.
The mundane/subtle/blatant distinction is something that really sounds neat and fits with my vague idea of magic as a matter of degree.