I saw a show where some divers were exploring an underwater cave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenote). It was eerily beautiful, and I could not help but think of cave exploring in D&D.
It'd be fun to do that in a game, but the more I thought about it, the more impractical it looked. You'd need some sort of magic or equipment to go in the water, and then how do landlubbers fight underwater against any creatures who belong in that environment?
Anyone tried anything of the sort?
With a lot of caveats and roundabouts, the general consensus I've seen is that underwater stuff, without things like scuba gear or underwater adaptation spells, tend to be really clunky and awkward. And with the gear or spells, they tend to be not as "cool", while still being clunky and awkward.
Doing such a game at the moment; the GM and players are using 5e, and seem to have no issues. I'm the stagehand, supplying the game table and depth markers.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1046096I saw a show where some divers were exploring an underwater cave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenote). It was eerily beautiful, and I could not help but think of cave exploring in D&D.
It'd be fun to do that in a game, but the more I thought about it, the more impractical it looked. You'd need some sort of magic or equipment to go in the water, and then how do landlubbers fight underwater against any creatures who belong in that environment?
Anyone tried anything of the sort?
Basically you use the ridiculously good 5e Waterbreathing ritual, and handwave all the realistic problems of movement, visibility, equipment use, tweak a few spell effects...and then you have at it for some fun.
Once upon a time, I ran a one-shot for a group of 3 players where we began at the lowest level of a very mechanical-appearing dungeon with lots of automated servitors/crew, which was later revealed to be a massive multi-story 'apparatus of kwalish'-esque submarine creeping through a deep sea trench. Naturally the players hijacked it as soon as they had the opportunity; we didn't have a chance to play the scenario any further and it was fairly underdeveloped to begin with, but there was a bit of a cliffhanger once they realized the sub was being followed by a couple oversized deep sea monstery-types.
I've long wanted to place an artifact at the center of some labyrinthine, semi-submerged not!Mesoamerican ruins; successfully reaching the artifact might involve screwing around with water levels and rotating aquaducts and such. I've got the perfect geographic location for it in one of my two ongoing campaigns, but so far I haven't had a chance to use it as my players have avoided traveling too far from civilization.
Edit: As far as players literally swimming around for an entire adventure, I've never done that. Closest would be a modern session where a cruise liner had succumbed to a group of pirates before being smashed on some rocks in the attempted getaway; the players needed to extract a high-value target, one of the passengers. They decided the best way to accomplish their goal as quietly and safely as possible was to buy a bunch of scuba gear and go in SEALS-style through the underwater hull breach, where they had to deal with a fuel leak (primarily visual impairment), electrical hazards, free-floating cargo and navigating dark crew corridors to their expected landing point near the target's room.
Quote from: Doom;1046114Basically you use the ridiculously good 5e Waterbreathing ritual, and handwave all the realistic problems of movement, visibility, equipment use, tweak a few spell effects...and then you have at it for some fun.
We do the same thing for vacuum for our sci-fi steampunk game (except everyone takes the "vacuum suit" option for their armor).
I keep the vacuum/water "issues" for plot points.
To quote Crow T Robot, "Underwater fights are like the drum solos of movies"
Essentially you are gimping the players (or their characters, anyway). Is that something they would enjoy? Most players don't.
I think underwater adventuring can work well as part of a higher-level adventure, basically allowing the players to use their PCs' accumulated abilities, resources and magic items to explore an area previously inaccessible to them and likely permanently inaccessible to most. As such, perhaps it has a disproportionately special and marvelous treasure! Once they get waterbreathing (via spell, device, potion, etc), I would maybe do a very modest penalty to movement/attacking (nuisance caliber, not gimping) and then run it relatively normally. I would try to highlight the fun of exploring the undersea world rather than get bogged down too much in the physics (it could really suck if you're hyper-focused on super realistically modeling movement, vision, spell effects etc). If such a concession makes your head asplode, then yeah, I guess you have to avoid underwater exploration. /shrug
Underwater Adventures = you throw a bunch of spells on the party then go on a regular adventure vs. water monsters.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1046197Underwater Adventures = you throw a bunch of spells on the party then go on a regular adventure vs. water monsters.
Pretty much!
Quote from: Spinachcat;1046197Underwater Adventures = you throw a bunch of spells on the party then go on a regular adventure vs. water monsters.
Yeah , pretty much this.
In the case where I ran an underwater adventure, it was a Hag that provided enchanted seaweed (functioning like potions of free action and waterbreathing) that asked them to do a mission, offering various loot etc..
Too bad there were "Side effects" on the seaweed... Muhahah!
I think that part of the interesting aspects of it would definitely be the exploration of these weird spaces and being able to move about without worrying about gravity as much. Also encountering the weird flora and fauna, which is the interesting stuff about the real life counterpart i read about (blind critters that have adapted to no light, etc).
A couple of spells to handwave the actual difficulties of combat sounds about right; maybe even specialized weapons.
Quote from: danskmacabre;1046352Yeah , pretty much this.
In the case where I ran an underwater adventure, it was a Hag that provided enchanted seaweed (functioning like potions of free action and waterbreathing) that asked them to do a mission, offering various loot etc..
Too bad there were "Side effects" on the seaweed... Muhahah!
Quote from: chirine ba kal;1046107Doing such a game at the moment; the GM and players are using 5e, and seem to have no issues. I'm the stagehand, supplying the game table and depth markers.
If you guys have time, I would love to hear more.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1046197Underwater Adventures = you throw a bunch of spells on the party then go on a regular adventure vs. water monsters.
I did an underwater dungeon once, and there are two elements you can use that are unusual: Three dimensional movement, and currents.
A couple of published modules are worth checking out, especially U3 - The Final Enemy. This is the third in the 1E Saltmarsh trilogy and involves the scouting/reconnaissance of a Sahaugin lair.
From memory the party is given a few useful items and can find a cache of additional items early into the adventure.
For higher level adventurers I believe X7 - The War Rafts of Kron has an extensive underwater section.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1046380If you guys have time, I would love to hear more.
The group seems to be having no problems with it; they are using 5e for the rules, I gather, and my depth markers to indicate where everyone is in the water column. The water is arbitrarily decreed to be a 12" ruler's depth; we could go deeper, as I have a second set of depth gauges that are based off of yard sticks. The vertical move on the 12" gauges is set in 2" increments, and the colors provide a visual shorthand for players and GM for things like ambient light and pressure issues. The players and GM seem to like the whole thing, and currents do factor in as movement penalty/bonus modifiers.
The 12" depth may seem shallow, but it seems to provide enough 3D to please people and not slow down the game play. I've played various air combat games in the past, where all sorts of telescoping rods and the like get used, and unless you have pretty experienced players the game can bog down in the presentation mechanics very quickly. I do have short stands for the sea life, but this is for the visual effect on the table more then anything else. I also like to do 'random encounters' just to keep the players on their toes; I have some giant drifting jellyfish which will feature as 'moving terrain' in Sunday's game.
Does any of this help?
A long time ago there was some guy on EnWorld writing an entire campaign as underwater adventures. He had an extensive underwater setting and everything,
Arduin had air sharks! Thus, I would occasionally grab other underwater monsters and "air-ify" them. Desert octopus! Floating squids!
And don't forget the flying piranha! (thank you James Cameron)
Quote from: Pyromancer;1046382I did an underwater dungeon once, and there are two elements you can use that are unusual: Three dimensional movement, and currents.
I've done something similar with elemental adventures in Planescape.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;1046541I have some giant drifting jellyfish which will feature as 'moving terrain' in Sunday's game.
That sounds awesome!
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1046096I saw a show where some divers were exploring an underwater cave (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenote). It was eerily beautiful, and I could not help but think of cave exploring in D&D.
It'd be fun to do that in a game, but the more I thought about it, the more impractical it looked. You'd need some sort of magic or equipment to go in the water, and then how do landlubbers fight underwater against any creatures who belong in that environment?
Anyone tried anything of the sort?
Yes, I have done this in RuneQuest several times.
The PCs tend to have water-breathing magic, which makes things easier. If not, they have to make a number of CON rolls for each stretch of underwater swimming, with one or more Swimming rolls, failing the CON roll or fumbling the Swimming roll means they start drowning. I sometimes give them a Luck roll to see if they can find a pocket of air at the last minute. PCs can always transfer air ro one another, or keep it in helmets, with a sibstantial modifier to Swimming to keep the air in the helmet.
Squeezes are bad, basically a Squeeze is a tight space that you have to squeeze past. You need to overcome the Squeeze vs SIZ on the resistance Table if SIZ is greater than Squeeze. So, a SIZ 16 person squeezing through a Squeeze 10 has a 10 vs 16, or 20% chance to squeeze through. Each squeeze attempt takes 1 round, a fumble means you are stuck. Heavy armour or equipment adds +1 SIZ. Squeezes are good near the end of an underwater swim, as the PCs already have problems with holding their breath.
Light is harder, Torches and lanterns won't work underwater, so they have to use light-causing magic, have magic items or rely on natural light. If the light is dim, this gives them a negative to combat rolls.
As for combat, they are restricted to their Swimming chance, unless they are natually amphibious. Thrusting weapons are at full chance, as are natural weapons, slashing weapons are at half chance and do half damage, crushing weapons are at half chance and do minimum damage. If they are holding their breath, they can fight for a number of rounds before having to breathe again, I think I use CON rounds. Being hit makes you roll a CON roll to see if you lose your breath. Grappling can force you to make a CON roll as they squeeze the breath out of you.
Quote from: Pyromancer;1046382I did an underwater dungeon once, and there are two elements you can use that are unusual: Three dimensional movement, and currents.
Weapons and spell use should be different as well.
I've done it ONCE and it was waaaaaay more work than I thought it should have been. And the biggest problem (air) was already taken care off.
Quote from: Doom;1046114Basically you use the ridiculously good 5e Waterbreathing ritual, and handwave all the realistic problems of movement, visibility, equipment use, tweak a few spell effects...and then you have at it for some fun.
Hehe! Sounds about like all the other things that keep me from playing D&D (at least, without a GM who is making things worth playing by doing a brilliant job running everything and basically inventing how everything works him/herself): you use the ridiculous unrealistic thing that's nothing like the situation it's supposedly about, handwave, ignore, and have the DM make up stuff, don't complain or point out anything logical, and "have fun!"
Quote from: Spinachcat;1046669That sounds awesome!
[ATTACH=CONFIG]2583[/ATTACH]
The 'custom of the house' is that anything coming inside the edge of the base gets a stinging attack.
Oh, and they glow in the dark, too.
Quote from: Chainsaw;1046163I think underwater adventuring can work well as part of a higher-level adventure, basically allowing the players to use their PCs' accumulated abilities, resources and magic items to explore an area previously inaccessible to them and likely permanently inaccessible to most. As such, perhaps it has a disproportionately special and marvelous treasure! Once they get waterbreathing (via spell, device, potion, etc), I would maybe do a very modest penalty to movement/attacking (nuisance caliber, not gimping) and then run it relatively normally. I would try to highlight the fun of exploring the undersea world rather than get bogged down too much in the physics (it could really suck if you're hyper-focused on super realistically modeling movement, vision, spell effects etc). If such a concession makes your head asplode, then yeah, I guess you have to avoid underwater exploration. /shrug
Like many other challenging environs (gas-filled sections of dungeon levels, permanently-burning coal mines, unstable dungeons wracked by recent earthquakes, etc.), waterborne or undersea adventures offer surface-dwellers many risks if they cannot breathe or move well. Sometimes those risks can be mitigated with spells and magic items (the usual suspects), herbs (gillyweed anyone?), or a proper sacrifice to your friendly local sea (or perhaps air) god. Sometime strange air-filled pathways and chambers also just lead down below the surface, for indeterminate lengths of time (see Leiber's "When the Sea-King's Away"). If the players or DM are interesting in making aquatic adventures happen, where there's a will, there's a way!
Quote from: Mistwell;1046550A long time ago there was some guy on EnWorld writing an entire campaign as underwater adventures. He had an extensive underwater setting and everything,
That sounds like Aeolius (sp?), who ran lots of undersea Greyhawk campaigns BITD.
Allan.
Quote from: chirine ba kal;1046541The group seems to be having no problems with it; they are using 5e for the rules, I gather, and my depth markers to indicate where everyone is in the water column. The water is arbitrarily decreed to be a 12" ruler's depth; we could go deeper, as I have a second set of depth gauges that are based off of yard sticks. The vertical move on the 12" gauges is set in 2" increments, and the colors provide a visual shorthand for players and GM for things like ambient light and pressure issues. The players and GM seem to like the whole thing, and currents do factor in as movement penalty/bonus modifiers.
The 12" depth may seem shallow, but it seems to provide enough 3D to please people and not slow down the game play. I've played various air combat games in the past, where all sorts of telescoping rods and the like get used, and unless you have pretty experienced players the game can bog down in the presentation mechanics very quickly. I do have short stands for the sea life, but this is for the visual effect on the table more then anything else. I also like to do 'random encounters' just to keep the players on their toes; I have some giant drifting jellyfish which will feature as 'moving terrain' in Sunday's game.
Does any of this help?
That's very helpful. Thanks everyone. That helps me visualize better how one can go about it in a more 'realistic' way.
I've certainly done it, and it's very interesting. But for it to work you either need the PCs to be quite high level or have temporary or permanent access to magic that lets them get there and survive down there.