Quote from: Tetsubo;614819If you want to do underwater adventuring in D&D or Pathfinder I would recommend Cerulean Seas by Alluria Publishing. This is  a great setting. they have recently released supplemental info on psionics in the underwater environment and an arctic setting book. just great stuff.

I'll give an honorable mention to Legend & Lairs: Seafarer's Handbook by Fantasy Flight Games.

It's a d20 sourcebook, but it has an extensive amount of material and advice for aquatic campaigns, from detail on undersea environments (kelp forests, shipwrecks, underwater cave systems) to common construction materials and equipment variants for merfolk, sahuagin, etc.  It would be totally bad-ass to have a shield crafted out of a giant clam while wearing kelp armor.

Quote from: The Traveller;614635Yes, I tend to be biased towards reality, it is after all step number one.

Its not "reality" when you confuse libertarianism with the corporate/welfare state.  That's actually what libertarianism is drastically opposed to.

BTW, if you believe Walmart doesn't love food stamps, you're a fucking idiot.  Walmart can only exist because of the Welfare state, and it knows it very clearly.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;615123Walmart can only exist because of the Welfare state, and it knows it very clearly.

Read it again, that's exactly what I said, so you're taking what I said and quoting it back to me as your own opinion while claiming a bias on my part. Now if only vocal libertarians would realise it too.

I don't know which political persuasion you cleave to, but I don't bring political agendas to my games. Industria Nova is about one fifth of one percent of the entire setting, one part in five hundred, and in this case happens to be a extreme extrapolation of libertarianism, so claiming that its all a big hatchet job on someone's pet interpretation of libertarian political theory is clearly nonsense.

Want to have a look at the rest of the submarine states, just to really get the point across?

Oceanic States
European Continental Shelf and Rockall Rise States
23
The Porcupine Republic
The Shelf Dominions
La République Normandie
The Biscay Freeholds
The Rockall Republic
Aurora Three
Tir na Mara
The United Facilities of Novatronics
The Free Substations
Territaland
Tiracia
The Maritime Union
Victorna
The Anarchies of Mitterand
The Autonomous Continental Combine
The Sovereign Technocracy of Deepwater
The Silver Republic
Regus Nova
The Wave Clans
Tir n'Eolas
Marsten's Colony
FreieRepublik Deutsch
The Republic of Seashire

North and Norwegian Sea
9
The Kelpers
The Northern Deep Republic
The Shelvers Confederation
Hedonica
Wolfsgaard
The Borderwater Syndicate
The Oslo Accord Settlements
The Sapphire City States
Aquar

Baltic Sea
2
Enligtmark
Neumark

Barents-Kara-Laptev Seas States
22
The Great Northern Federation
Novaya Sovia
The Kara Institutional Pact
Koznya
The Arctican Alliance
The Narwhal Republic
Vladisimli
Fyrmabyrimyn (Farm Belt)
Colonial Konstantinov
Kungasalakh Settlements
The Laptev Republic
Molokwavader
SubSiberian Industrial Cities
Slabodanya
The Oceanic League
Ivania
The Sokolov Territories
Budushyria
The Empire of Novorosk
The Nessian Union
The Holy Northern Russian Republic
The Brinelands

East Siberian Sea States
4
Spezilnya
The Hattian Societies
The Siberian Democratic Republic
The Technocracy of Pacifica

Okhotsk Sea States
6
The Central Socialist Communities
The Republic of Sakhalin
Ostrovia
Deryugin
Tinro
Akademii Nauk

The Floating Nations of the Northwest Pacific Basin

Ogasawara Ridge States
4
Western Ogasawaran Republic
The Mitsu-Nito Combine
Akima
Chenwan City States

East China Sea States
4
The Yellow Sea Kingdom
Confederation of Chenghai
New Qingdao
The East Pacific Colonies

Mid Pacific Mountain States, guyot plateaus
18
Takuiyo-Daiwan Free State
The Tomoda Hierarchy
Greer Nation
The Batiza Allegiancy
Nova Wendu
Holy Toyama
The Seven Cities
The Deepstar Belt
Rykachev
Central Pacifica
The Tranquil Union
Chianghua
Centechnica
The Tokyo Treaty City States
The Suboceanic Matriarchy of Kester
Paradisia
The Mau'Ling Territories
Tarawa

The Coral States
5
The Free Caledonian Republic
Howeland
The Coral Enclaves
The Tasman Empire
Challengeria

Campbell Plateau Nations
2
The Bounty Plateau Colonies
Cymar

Timor-Arafura Oceanic States
9
Sahul Reaches
New Exmouth
The Gulf Union
The Sahul Frontier
The Combined Arcologies of Kensginton
McNamara Colony States
Abyros
North Arafura
Northern Coastal Communities

Java Sea States
8
The Flores Sultanate
The Pearl Republic
The Federation of Bali City States
New Anambas
The Free South China Union
Karamata
Selatan
The Unified Buddhist Republics

Chagos Laccadive Plateau States
4
The Bengalese Commonwealth
Laccadive
The Kingdom of Lakshadweep
The Indian Ocean Consortium

Mid Indian Ridge States
11
Bao Chuan Kritocracy
North Indian Polities
The Mascarene City States
Amirante
The Argo Colonies
The Nazarene Union
Confederated Stations of Vema
Sealark Fracture Territory
The Unified Panodyne Habitats
The Netherbases
Aqualon
Southwest Indian Ridge States
7
Greater Novara
The Madagascar Reaches
Brasayl
Panoceania
East Crozet Nova
Immersia
Shining Chengyan

The Great Mid Atlantic Ridge States
22
The Ruby Escarpment Republic
Allied Rio Grande Communities
South Cape City States
Metropole
The Incorporated South Atlantic States
The Atlantic Agribelt
West African Borderlands
Romanche
Mid Atlantic Nadiria
The Archangel Pillar Cities
Neptune Mineral Consortium
Wildeep Allied Central
The Free Domes of Cymril
Vance Station Republic
Ridgelands
Kanite Union
Belazurus
Protectorate of God
Primatlantica
The Exile Republic
The Unified Corporate Zone
Brinkrift
The Northern Foundry Geodesics
Industria Nova
The Disputed Atlantic Territories
Gilland

Greenland Sea States
3
Imringer Basin Republic
West Denmark
The Genturull Federation

Great Banks of Newfoundland State
1
The West Atlantic Republic

Georges Bank State
1
The Tidelands

Hudson Bay Nations
3
Maritimia
The New Dominions of St John
Free Augur

The West Florida Escarpment
2
Black Three
New Tortuga

Sargasso Sea Floating States

The Canary Basin Floating States

Guiana Plateau States
3
Guiana West
The Kingdom of Paramaribo
Ping

Argentine Basin Floating States

South American Plateau States
15
New Salvador
The Purple Reef Settlements
The Atlantic Republic
Abynon
Abrolhos
The Greater Escarpment Republic
Siltslope Democratica
Purgudan
The Three Nations of Greenwater Deeps
The Combined Penal Stations of Falk
Yaghan Overlook
Bahia Grande
Argentos
The Copper Cities of Sam
Thaliman

Upper East Pacific Rise States
6
Technocracy of Tiki Deeps
Deepswell Six Pact Territories
Eastpac Unified Republics
Salaya
HuriHuri
The Pacific Fracture Polities

Lower East Pacific Rise States
4
The Southwest Rise Republic
Free Pacifica
Menard Fracture Alliance
Bezhnev Salvage Zone

Central Pacific Basin Floating States

Arctic Ocean Floating States

Obviously some names are provisional but I would hope this gets the diversity of the setting across somewhat.

Quote from: The Traveller;615141Read it again, that's exactly what I said,

You said: "while lionising "market equalisers" like Walmart, ignorant of the fact that the only way employees could survive on Walmart wages is with food stamps"; which I now recognize I misread. You weren't saying "walmart" was ignorant, you were saying that your caricature of libertarians (which is really not a caricature of libertarians at all, but of some kind of Glen Beck republican) would be ignorant of this fact.

Your point continues to be baloney.  Its possible a Glen Beck/Tea Party Republican might describe himself as a "libertarian" (these are the same supergeniuses that were quoted as saying things like "I just want the government to keep its hands out of my medicare!"), but that doesn't make that an accurate description of what the ideology actually is.

REAL libertarians (ie. people who actually know what that word means and don't just think "it means liberty! America fuck yeah!" or something like that) very much DESPISE corporate Welfare and point directly to it as a huge part of the problem. The welfare state doesn't exist to help people in the U.S., it exists to allow companies like Walmart to exist. Real libertarians are obliged to decry that kind of thing, as well as Walmart's use of government force in getting local governments to apply eminent domain to force people to give them land to build their stores.  Never mind other industries like Big Oil and Big Corn who have made use of massive and more direct corporate welfare (oil subsidies, "farm" subsidies) that have utterly warped our economy. The answer to green energy isn't to make a bunch of special government programs to encourage green energy, its to stop spending billions subsidizing the oil industry.

QuoteI don't know which political persuasion you cleave to, but I don't bring political agendas to my games. Industria Nova is about one fifth of one percent of the entire setting, one part in five hundred, and in this case happens to be a extreme extrapolation of libertarianism, so claiming that its all a big hatchet job on someone's pet interpretation of libertarian political theory is clearly nonsense.

Maybe so. I don't know your game. But I do know that if you point out in your game that "this is libertarianism", then you clearly haven't done your homework. And if you haven't on this, how many other states are going to be based on faulty information (for good or ill) about what an ideology is about, as well?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;615534REAL libertarians (ie. people who actually know what that word means and don't just think "it means liberty! America fuck yeah!" or something like that) very much DESPISE corporate Welfare and point directly to it as a huge part of the problem.

You know, I don't think I've ever met a "real" libertarian who wasn't also a massive hypocrite. Some of the ones I've jousted with include a university professor (what, free competition is fine except when it comes to educational tenure?) and more than one "rock star economist", the most memorable of whom I discovered had signed his name to a petition for mortgage debt relief on his overextended house, passing his personal debt onto the taxpayers; it was a feeding frenzy after that.

How about you, planning to give up that wicked government-enforced monopoly on your creative works, aka copyright?

Quote from: RPGPundit;615534Maybe so. I don't know your game. But I do know that if you point out in your game that "this is libertarianism", then you clearly haven't done your homework. And if you haven't on this, how many other states are going to be based on faulty information (for good or ill) about what an ideology is about, as well?

Aaaand we circle right back to the meaning of "ultra" again. You should probably start reading my posts a little more closely, it will save wear and tear on the keyboard there.

I'll put it like this: by the dictionary and at least for myself, "ultra" does not have positive connotations. It doesn't mean exemplar, it means going way too far with something, usually focused on one facet of a thing. The interpretation I've put forward for that single region includes but is not limited to an overinvestment in personal responsibility. Had I said simply "libertarian", you would have a point - however I did not.

You disagree that this is a possible outcome of adhering strictly to a libertarian diet, to which I would respond that never in the history of the world has there been a philosophy which hasn't involved killing someone once extremists get involved. There's no point in getting huffy over that fact, it will remain a fact.

Also as previously mentioned, that state isn't a dystopia, so don't imagine a few quirks paint the full picture by a long shot. As its name indicates, its a powerhouse of manufacturing industry among other things.

Quote from: The Traveller;614635Yes, I tend to be biased towards reality, it is after all step number one.

I recommend an underwater debate for both of you.

I like subs!

The Traveller, is this a modern, post-apocalypse, or fantasy setting?

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;615591I recommend an underwater debate for both of you.

I dislike talking about politics on gaming sites as a rule, but sure what can you do, he owns the place.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;615591I like subs!

The Traveller, is this a modern, post-apocalypse, or fantasy setting?

It's set in the 22nd century after global warming does its worst and the polar icecaps melt entirely, flooding much of the coastline and turning a lot of the rest into warm salt marshes. Its not intended to be post apocalyptic, but rather a huge sandbox mixing cyberpunk with many other inspirations.

There's no real need to stay in the water either to be honest, it can be run as straight cyberpunk, and here it comes, ready your winces, WATERPUNK, noir, hardboiled detective, spy, military, political, tomb raider/Indiana Jones, scientific, exploration, trading, mythos, horror, anything really. For example you could run the film "Aliens" basically straight up in this setting, if you swapped out the Sulaco for a submarine.

Its one of those projects that keeps growing and growing, I have a few links earlier in the thread to other threads including maps as well.

I want to see more underwater modules and adventures and dungeons.

One of my old time favorite 1E mods was Shrine of the Kuo-Toa. What other underwater mods can folks recommend?

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;616036I want to see more underwater modules and adventures and dungeons.

One of my old time favorite 1E mods was Shrine of the Kuo-Toa. What other underwater mods can folks recommend?

It isn't the best module in the world, but Ship of Horror for Ravenloft has an underwater portion.

Quote from: The Traveller;615141Read it again, that's exactly what I said, so you're taking what I said and quoting it back to me as your own opinion while claiming a bias on my part. Now if only vocal libertarians would realise it too.

I don't know which political persuasion you cleave to, but I don't bring political agendas to my games. Industria Nova is about one fifth of one percent of the entire setting, one part in five hundred, and in this case happens to be a extreme extrapolation of libertarianism, so claiming that its all a big hatchet job on someone's pet interpretation of libertarian political theory is clearly nonsense.

Want to have a look at the rest of the submarine states, just to really get the point across?

Oceanic States
European Continental Shelf and Rockall Rise States
23
The Porcupine Republic
The Shelf Dominions
La République Normandie
The Biscay Freeholds
The Rockall Republic
Aurora Three
Tir na Mara
The United Facilities of Novatronics
The Free Substations
Territaland
Tiracia
The Maritime Union
Victorna
The Anarchies of Mitterand
The Autonomous Continental Combine
The Sovereign Technocracy of Deepwater
The Silver Republic
Regus Nova
The Wave Clans
Tir n'Eolas
Marsten's Colony
FreieRepublik Deutsch
The Republic of Seashire

North and Norwegian Sea
9
The Kelpers
The Northern Deep Republic
The Shelvers Confederation
Hedonica
Wolfsgaard
The Borderwater Syndicate
The Oslo Accord Settlements
The Sapphire City States
Aquar

Baltic Sea
2
Enligtmark
Neumark

Barents-Kara-Laptev Seas States
22
The Great Northern Federation
Novaya Sovia
The Kara Institutional Pact
Koznya
The Arctican Alliance
The Narwhal Republic
Vladisimli
Fyrmabyrimyn (Farm Belt)
Colonial Konstantinov
Kungasalakh Settlements
The Laptev Republic
Molokwavader
SubSiberian Industrial Cities
Slabodanya
The Oceanic League
Ivania
The Sokolov Territories
Budushyria
The Empire of Novorosk
The Nessian Union
The Holy Northern Russian Republic
The Brinelands

East Siberian Sea States
4
Spezilnya
The Hattian Societies
The Siberian Democratic Republic
The Technocracy of Pacifica

Okhotsk Sea States
6
The Central Socialist Communities
The Republic of Sakhalin
Ostrovia
Deryugin
Tinro
Akademii Nauk

The Floating Nations of the Northwest Pacific Basin

Ogasawara Ridge States
4
Western Ogasawaran Republic
The Mitsu-Nito Combine
Akima
Chenwan City States

East China Sea States
4
The Yellow Sea Kingdom
Confederation of Chenghai
New Qingdao
The East Pacific Colonies

Mid Pacific Mountain States, guyot plateaus
18
Takuiyo-Daiwan Free State
The Tomoda Hierarchy
Greer Nation
The Batiza Allegiancy
Nova Wendu
Holy Toyama
The Seven Cities
The Deepstar Belt
Rykachev
Central Pacifica
The Tranquil Union
Chianghua
Centechnica
The Tokyo Treaty City States
The Suboceanic Matriarchy of Kester
Paradisia
The Mau'Ling Territories
Tarawa

The Coral States
5
The Free Caledonian Republic
Howeland
The Coral Enclaves
The Tasman Empire
Challengeria

Campbell Plateau Nations
2
The Bounty Plateau Colonies
Cymar

Timor-Arafura Oceanic States
9
Sahul Reaches
New Exmouth
The Gulf Union
The Sahul Frontier
The Combined Arcologies of Kensginton
McNamara Colony States
Abyros
North Arafura
Northern Coastal Communities

Java Sea States
8
The Flores Sultanate
The Pearl Republic
The Federation of Bali City States
New Anambas
The Free South China Union
Karamata
Selatan
The Unified Buddhist Republics

Chagos Laccadive Plateau States
4
The Bengalese Commonwealth
Laccadive
The Kingdom of Lakshadweep
The Indian Ocean Consortium

Mid Indian Ridge States
11
Bao Chuan Kritocracy
North Indian Polities
The Mascarene City States
Amirante
The Argo Colonies
The Nazarene Union
Confederated Stations of Vema
Sealark Fracture Territory
The Unified Panodyne Habitats
The Netherbases
Aqualon
Southwest Indian Ridge States
7
Greater Novara
The Madagascar Reaches
Brasayl
Panoceania
East Crozet Nova
Immersia
Shining Chengyan

The Great Mid Atlantic Ridge States
22
The Ruby Escarpment Republic
Allied Rio Grande Communities
South Cape City States
Metropole
The Incorporated South Atlantic States
The Atlantic Agribelt
West African Borderlands
Romanche
Mid Atlantic Nadiria
The Archangel Pillar Cities
Neptune Mineral Consortium
Wildeep Allied Central
The Free Domes of Cymril
Vance Station Republic
Ridgelands
Kanite Union
Belazurus
Protectorate of God
Primatlantica
The Exile Republic
The Unified Corporate Zone
Brinkrift
The Northern Foundry Geodesics
Industria Nova
The Disputed Atlantic Territories
Gilland

Greenland Sea States
3
Imringer Basin Republic
West Denmark
The Genturull Federation

Great Banks of Newfoundland State
1
The West Atlantic Republic

Georges Bank State
1
The Tidelands

Hudson Bay Nations
3
Maritimia
The New Dominions of St John
Free Augur

The West Florida Escarpment
2
Black Three
New Tortuga

Sargasso Sea Floating States

The Canary Basin Floating States

Guiana Plateau States
3
Guiana West
The Kingdom of Paramaribo
Ping

Argentine Basin Floating States

South American Plateau States
15
New Salvador
The Purple Reef Settlements
The Atlantic Republic
Abynon
Abrolhos
The Greater Escarpment Republic
Siltslope Democratica
Purgudan
The Three Nations of Greenwater Deeps
The Combined Penal Stations of Falk
Yaghan Overlook
Bahia Grande
Argentos
The Copper Cities of Sam
Thaliman

Upper East Pacific Rise States
6
Technocracy of Tiki Deeps
Deepswell Six Pact Territories
Eastpac Unified Republics
Salaya
HuriHuri
The Pacific Fracture Polities

Lower East Pacific Rise States
4
The Southwest Rise Republic
Free Pacifica
Menard Fracture Alliance
Bezhnev Salvage Zone

Central Pacific Basin Floating States

Arctic Ocean Floating States

Obviously some names are provisional but I would hope this gets the diversity of the setting across somewhat.

Love it. Sounds great. And I wonder how many of the people complaining about your ultra-libertarian idea would also complain about the lack of complete accuracy in the depiction of feudalism in a game. I doubt they'd care about that, so who cares about whether your depiction of libertarianism is accurate?

Quote from: noisms;616084Love it. Sounds great. And I wonder how many of the people complaining about your ultra-libertarian idea would also complain about the lack of complete accuracy in the depiction of feudalism in a game. I doubt they'd care about that, so who cares about whether your depiction of libertarianism is accurate?

Thanks, yes, to be honest even referring to self described libertarian communities as a 'state' flies in the face of libertarian philosophy if we start poking at doctrines, so why start is the way I see it.

Quote from: Kaiu Keiichi;616036I want to see more underwater modules and adventures and dungeons.

Aside from PF/Cerulean Seas there was an excellent 3.5e supplement called The Deep (Mystic Eye Games). Granted, WotC's Stormwrack also has some great inspirational bits.

I just came across this, assassination politics, and it reminded me of the topic of sanctioned violence in a hypothetical futuristic Libertarian community.

QuoteA few months ago, I had a truly and quite literally "revolutionary" idea, and I jokingly called it "Assassination Politics": I speculated on the question of whether an organization could be set up to legally announce that it would be awarding a cash prize to somebody who correctly "predicted" the death of one of a list of violators of rights, usually either government employees, officeholders, or appointees. It could ask for anonymous contributions from the public, and individuals would be able send those contributions using digital cash.

I also speculated that using modern methods of public-key encryption and anonymous "digital cash," it would be possible to make such awards in such a way so that nobody knows who is getting awarded the money, only that the award is being given. Even the organization itself would have no information that could help the authorities find the person responsible for the prediction, let alone the one who caused the death.

It was not my intention to provide such a "tough nut to crack" by arguing the general case, claiming that a person who hires a hit man is not guilty of murder under libertarian principles. Obviously, the problem with the general case is that the victim may be totally innocent under libertarian principles, which would make the killing a crime, leading to the question of whether the person offering the money was himself guilty.

On the contrary; my speculation assumed that the "victim" is a government employee, presumably one who is not merely taking a paycheck of stolen tax dollars, but also is guilty of extra violations of rights beyond this. (Government agents responsible for the Ruby Ridge incident and Waco come to mind.) In receiving such money and in his various acts, he violates the "Non-aggression Principle" (NAP) and thus, presumably, any acts against him are not the initiation of force under libertarian principles.

That's from 1997, so never say that nutty ideas can't arise and in some cases be taken on as part of a society. In fact that particular tract could be quite influential in the society envisioned.

Quote from: The Traveller;640070I just came across this, assassination politics, and it reminded me of the topic of sanctioned violence in a hypothetical futuristic Libertarian community.

That's from 1997, so never say that nutty ideas can't arise and in some cases be taken on as part of a society. In fact that particular tract could be quite influential in the society envisioned.

Yeah, but that's pretty clearly not so much "libertarian" as "unabomber conspiracy-theorist survivalist".

RPGPundit