Rules for underwater environments and marine beasties used to be a staple of D&D and some other games. As if alongside the occasional extra-planar jaunt, undersea adventuring was meant to be a regular thing. Can't say I've ever really taken part in such a game though. Have you? How did it go?

Yeah I'm rocking the 22nd century after global warming does its worst with my group at the moment. Associated threads/posts

http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=23103
http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=596472&postcount=8
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=25189
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=24976

Lots of submarines! Imagine almost exactly Firefly except underwater. The idea of submarines as a major mode of transportation doesn't exactly loom large in movies and books, but when you think about it, its very much the same only better, since your lasers really do go pew pew. Most of the depths of the ocean are completely unexplored, and if you're out of sight you may as well be on the moon as far as pursuers go.

I've set up a few hundred submarine nations varying from "normal-ish" to really bizarre, like an ultra libertarian state where you can legitimately murder someone as long as it can be shown they had caused or were likely to cause more damages to you than their life was worth (a human life being worth about $7 million according to insurance combines). Assassins guilds do in fact exist there, and corporate dealmaking can be a dicey business. On the other hand they'll manufacture and sell you any piece of technology you want, no questions asked (providing weapons are deactivated until you cross the border).

The Accord of the Oceans means most of the substates have a mutual noninterference pact, as long as citizens are free to move around. So hardline communist countries sit right beside the abovementioned libertarian paradise without trouble. Life is dangerous enough down there without starting more trouble.

Its a blast to be honest.

I think there's a German RPG of underwater SF called LodlanD. No idea if it's any good.

I love me some underwater stuff but I'm mainly interested in using it in a pulp, modern, futuristic and/or postapocalyptic context. I've never really given much thought to underwater adventuring in a fantasy setting.

Quote from: The Traveller;613432I've set up a few hundred submarine nations varying from "normal-ish" to really bizarre, like an ultra libertarian state where you can legitimately murder someone as long as it can be shown they had caused or were likely to cause more damages to you than their life was worth (a human life being worth about $7 million according to insurance combines). Assassins guilds do in fact exist there, and corporate dealmaking can be a dicey business. On the other hand they'll manufacture and sell you any piece of technology you want, no questions asked (providing weapons are deactivated until you cross the border).

That's not libertarian. Libertarian depends first and foremost on the freedom of an individual, and the total lack of the application of force in both commerce and society. In a libertarian state the only way anyone should be allowed to kill you is if you ask to be. Arguably, you could claim that in an "ultra-libertarian state" someone might be able to sell their death, freely and voluntarily exchanging for money the right for someone else to kill them, but you would NEVER have a situation where someone else should get to kill you against your will (nor indeed, where the state would be able to), whether because you cost them money or for any other reason (except, potentially, self-defense in the case of immediate risk to your life or the life of others).

What you're describing above isn't libertarianism. I don't know what it is; there may be an accurate term for it, but its more like what some liberal douchebag likes to image libertarianism is like.

Also, doesn't this sound like a ripoff of that video game? What's it called? The one that makes fun of objectivism?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;613763That's not libertarian. Libertarian depends first and foremost on the freedom of an individual, and the total lack of the application of force in both commerce and society. In a libertarian state the only way anyone should be allowed to kill you is if you ask to be. Arguably, you could claim that in an "ultra-libertarian state" someone might be able to sell their death, freely and voluntarily exchanging for money the right for someone else to kill them, but you would NEVER have a situation where someone else should get to kill you against your will (nor indeed, where the state would be able to), whether because you cost them money or for any other reason (except, potentially, self-defense in the case of immediate risk to your life or the life of others).

Yeah, you see the hint was in the "ultra", as in extreme rather than exemplar.

Quoteultra-
prefix extremely, excessively, fanatically, radically, rabidly, immoderately

In the same way that extremists aren't really representative of their parent philosophy, but have run with certain elements way beyond the original intention. I could describe the evolution of the philosophy where it intersected with legal precedent and historical events in this particular imaginary state over a couple of hundred years, its one of my favourites creating as it does a bizarre combination of moral piety and Robocop-style corporate cultures, but why bother.

Quote from: RPGPundit;613763Also, doesn't this sound like a ripoff of that video game? What's it called? The one that makes fun of objectivism?

Eh no, what video game are you babbling about.

The video game is Bio Shock.  It was meant to be less "ha ha, stupid Randroids!" and more "high ideals are compromised by the follies of human nature."  Andrew Ryan gave up his Objectivist principles once he

Spoiler

became a tyrant and used mind control on the main character.  "A master chooses, a slave obeys!  OBEY!"

And Objectivism has many similarities to Libertarianism, but they're not the same and have quite a few differences.

But I don't want to thread derail.

I've used underwater adventures sparingly, except in a Freeport game I ran many years ago.  I made Swim a class skill for everyone, alchemical jelly which granted limited water-breathing was commonly available, as were primitive scuba suits.  I also allowed the option of amphibious PC options, like aquatic elves and Sahuagin.  We had a Sahuagin Wizard in our group, and eventually a Serpent Person Sorcerer.  It was one cool game.

If I ever went back to Freeport, I'd probably incorporate more stuff to make the game aquatic friendly.  Like using more homebrewed monster classes (want to play a Water Elemental?  Go nuts), and a feat which grants water breathing and swim speeds and other stuff to land-lubber PCs.

Quote from: Libertad;613881The video game is Bio Shock.  It was meant to be less "ha ha, stupid Randroids!" and more "high ideals are compromised by the follies of human nature."  Andrew Ryan gave up his Objectivist principles once he

Spoiler

became a tyrant and used mind control on the main character.  "A master chooses, a slave obeys!  OBEY!"

I see. Honestly you'd be better off looking at Seaquest DSV or this for sources of inspiration, although I only found out about the latter a few months ago, the 1960s have nothing to do with the setting. Industria Nova (the neo-ultra-Libertarian country) among the Greater Mid Atlantic Ridge States is only one very small part of the entire milieu.

Also in the setting, for example, are skyrunners that tear through a whickering belt of lethal debris orbiting the earth to bring aid and succour to distant stations and receive tons of stargold in return. Cap'n Bob in the fallen heroes thread was done for by the samurai-beaurocrats of the Pearl Republic in the Java Sea States. Quite a lot of money can be made by tomb raiding (dungeon crawling) not only drowned cities but by real Indiana Jones stuff among the mysterious ice age continental shelf settlements.

So, not making any particular statements with the setting...

Gotta just chime in to agree with the Pundit here.

A society where you can legally murder someone is not an extreme extension of the idea of libertarianism, it's a violation of the main tenet of libertarianism - voluntarism, or not having something imposed on you by force.

I mean, google "Libertarianism" and the first sentence that comes up is "Libertarianism is the group of political philosophies which advocate minimizing coercion...".

It's like saying that human-sacrificing Satan worship is an example of "extreme" Christianity.

More power to you in creating a fun RPG setting, but this kind of statement is going to make people wince and does indeed sound like your contact with libertarianism only comes from media which fear and loathe it.

Quote from: The Traveller;613839Yeah, you see the hint was in the "ultra", as in extreme rather than exemplar.



In the same way that extremists aren't really representative of their parent philosophy, but have run with certain elements way beyond the original intention. I could describe the evolution of the philosophy where it intersected with legal precedent and historical events in this particular imaginary state over a couple of hundred years, its one of my favourites creating as it does a bizarre combination of moral piety and Robocop-style corporate cultures, but why bother.

Quote from: Killfuck Soulshitter;613984It's like saying that human-sacrificing Satan worship is an example of "extreme" Christianity.

Seems like there's a lot of projection going on here to be honest. Blowing up abortion clinics in the name of christianity probably isn't what Jesus had in mind way back when either, but there you have it. Google the definition of "ultra" too, the first, second, and third words you'll see will be "extremist".

You could make a decent argument that an "extreme libertarianism" is one where people would be allowed to starve to death in the streets.

However, it is not libertarianism, extreme or otherwise, to have a situation where someone could be killed against their will.  Because this violates the central concept of what libertarian ideology is all about!  Its not like "abortion clinic bombing for life", its more like if you were to say a society where no one was permitted to buy or sell any products and all goods and services were doled out by the government was a kind of "extreme capitalism".  Its not even an ideological argument we're having with you here, its a case if misuse of terms.
Its like calling people from Nigeria "extreme Bulgarians", there's just no way its right by definition.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;614312You could make a decent argument that an "extreme libertarianism" is one where people would be allowed to starve to death in the streets.

No, that would be basic libertarianism. Seriously, this is a philosophy where you have people crying about the minimum wage and social safety nets while lionising "market equalisers" like Walmart, ignorant of the fact that the only way employees could survive on Walmart wages is with food stamps, a social welfare net, to say nothing of it being factored into Walmart's business model as it is for most such businesses all across the US, therefore making these captains of industry as much reliant on the teat of the state as any welfare queen. You want to reduce welfare bills, enforce a higher minimum wage.

Violence is built directly into libertarianism, with its actual central focus on "freedom" and "personal responsibility", aka social Darwinism of the most writ-in-crayon type which equates someone's personal financial wealth with some kind of objective moral value. And do not start talking about charitable organisations for pity's sake. This is purely "religion of peace" whitewashing.

Well hey, here's an (ultra) extension of personal responsibility, if you cost someone seven million bucks or over, that counts as mitigating circumstances in Industria Nova. It's not a dystopian nightmare, just different.

And before the lefties start breathing heavily, never fear, I find communism every bit as laughable, if not more so. If you want a useful political philosophy try not to wrap yourself in one flag that attempts to rope a wide variety of policies under the one roof, its not like its a political party you're voting for. A little from column A, a little from column B. Maybe that's what it equates to in reality, and the extremes from either camp merely serve to strengthen the moderates, but don't wave the ignorance around as if it meant one fucking thing. At least not around me.

Anyways with hundreds of submarine states I'm sure everyone will find something to get huffy over, I might even include special social caricatures for the rpgnet crowd to moisten their palms with.

No, why bother.

Quote from: The Traveller;614320No, that would be basic libertarianism. Seriously, this is a philosophy where you have people crying about the minimum wage and social safety nets while lionising "market equalisers" like Walmart, ignorant of the fact that the only way employees could survive on Walmart wages is with food stamps, a social welfare net, to say nothing of it being factored into Walmart's business model as it is for most such businesses all across the US, therefore making these captains of industry as much reliant on the teat of the state as any welfare queen. You want to reduce welfare bills, enforce a higher minimum wage.

Violence is built directly into libertarianism, with its actual central focus on "freedom" and "personal responsibility", aka social Darwinism of the most writ-in-crayon type which equates someone's personal financial wealth with some kind of objective moral value. And do not start talking about charitable organisations for pity's sake. This is purely "religion of peace" whitewashing.

Well hey, here's an (ultra) extension of personal responsibility, if you cost someone seven million bucks or over, that counts as mitigating circumstances in Industria Nova. It's not a dystopian nightmare, just different.

And before the lefties start breathing heavily, never fear, I find communism every bit as laughable, if not more so. If you want a useful political philosophy try not to wrap yourself in one flag that attempts to rope a wide variety of policies under the one roof, its not like its a political party you're voting for. A little from column A, a little from column B. Maybe that's what it equates to in reality, and the extremes from either camp merely serve to strengthen the moderates, but don't wave the ignorance around as if it meant one fucking thing. At least not around me.

Anyways with hundreds of submarine states I'm sure everyone will find something to get huffy over, I might even include special social caricatures for the rpgnet crowd to moisten their palms with.

No, why bother.

Uh huh. So I was right in the first place, this is a personal bias.

I have never really had a lot of luck with underwater adventures.

Quote from: RPGPundit;614628Uh huh. So I was right in the first place, this is a personal bias.

Yes, I tend to be biased towards reality, it is after all step number one.

If you want to do underwater adventuring in D&D or Pathfinder I would recommend Cerulean Seas by Alluria Publishing. This is  a great setting. they have recently released supplemental info on psionics in the underwater environment and an arctic setting book. just great stuff.